Red-Shirts To Intensify Pressure

[steveromagnino]

Another example of red shirt terrorism

But i doubt it's mindless terrorisim. I'm not a red supporter, but they have impressed me with their organization and ability to think on the fly. I'm just betting the reason they blocked the track at Chitlom is that they had "notice" that the government might be sending soldiers in thru the BTS.

Just a guess, but I'm betting on that.

Actually to go through the time sequence.

5am-6am: red shirters of some sort move a number of tires onto the track

6am: BTS doesn't open after inspection of line

6am - 9am: heated complaints, a lot of negative comments and 200,000+ passengers unable to go to work; gridlock in the city

9am onwards: First Weng says yes, it was red shirts, but no not officially sanctioned by leaders, so please don't do again

9.30am onwards: Charan says it wasn't real red shirts, but someone trying to discredit us (fake red shirts)

9.45am approx: red shitrs remove the tires

10am: BTS reopens

OK, so just to be clear.

Only red shirts have access to the station and to tires; there are basically few police, army, non red shirts inside this area, and they have their own system of guards and controls.

Tires are a scarce commodity, and very valuable for creating blockades.

Are we to seriously believe that somehow a group of at least 10+ people 'rogue red shirters' somehow infiltrate the mob AND move 30+ tires up onto the BTS AND no one notices or checks what they are doing?

Then furthermore are we to seriously believe that the leaders who know of the issue most likely since 6am when the BTS doesn't open are unable to link the tires being on the BTS and the news that red shirts put them there and (if it is true) that since fake red shirts did it that they should therefore immediately condemn it and immediately remove the tires, rather than waiting an additional 3+ hours and doing absolutely nothing in the meantime?

Sorry Weng, your handling of this PR issue, like much else, sounds like a complete load of crap. You can blither all you want and perhaps the red shirt fraternity here will lap it up, but I suspect a bunch of taxis, drivers, BTS riders and so on just decided (if they hadn't already) that you really are a knob.

In a casino, they talk of giving a cheat 'enough rope to hang themselves'. These unlawful spot checks in the provinces are genius, because they show what a thuggish element exists within the red shirts, and their disregard for civil rights when they appointed themselves as police searching the general public. The BTS incident shows their willingness to do what it takes then not even have the balls to back themselves when it goes wrong. The grenades and endless claims of it being not them yet not offering help or concern for their fellow Thais.

The movement fell apart last year when some couldn't help themselves and resorted to violence - again back then they tried to pretend there were fake red shirts. What a joke. Having seen them, there are a small minority who have been consistently on the verge of wanting a scrap throughout the so called 'peaceful marches' (intimidation is still peaceful right). Arisaman is one of the thugs, yet is never castigated for his actions. Maytee has been caught with arms and is facing the death penalty so gave up information to save himself.

Bring it on lads, you are making yourselves look really stupid right now, please feel free to continue, we want to see how low you'll stoop.

Edited April 27, 2010 by steveromagnino

[Silurian]

MCOT: Bangkok Municipality won't collect garbage at protest site; 4 garbage trucks seized by demonstrators returned only with difficulty

Another brilliant move by the "red shirts". I guess they want to stew in their own filth.

Pretty much doing biological warfare on themselves.

[quiksilva]

Bring it on lads, you are making yourselves look really stupid right now, please feel free to continue, we want to see how low you'll stoop.

I think they answered that for themselves with the announcement of special units to counter the movements of the other mob...to "test for double standards" Yeah right, in other words boys on bikes are spoiling for a fight.

[RussellHantz]

As for the cops and soldiers around Kon Kaen who are wilting like pansies in a drought: Firm recriminations are in order - though who will enforce discipline? ....if so many cops/soldiers are wimping out?

Nice to see you are calling for firm recriminations, and not the death penalty for a change

brahmburgars never advocated the death penalty or killing reds to close down the rally.

That was red interpretations to discredit his firm stance on law and order reinstitution.

The death penalty or life without parole is quite appropriate for any who kill from stealth

while using others as shields or a distraction... Any group doing this is liable.

Sure, but he is all too quick to give the death penalty to those who attacked and killed the soldiers but is very quiet about those who murdered the red protesters. Can you smell the hypocrisy ?

[yoshiwara]

As for the cops and soldiers around Kon Kaen who are wilting like pansies in a drought: Firm recriminations are in order - though who will enforce discipline? ....if so many cops/soldiers are wimping out?

Nice to see you are calling for firm recriminations, and not the death penalty for a change

brahmburgars never advocated the death penalty or killing reds to close down the rally.

That was red interpretations to discredit his firm stance on law and order reinstitution.

The death penalty or life without parole is quite appropriate for any who kill from stealth

while using others as shields or a distraction... Any group doing this is liable.

Sure, but he is all too quick to give the death penalty to those who attacked and killed the soldiers but is very quiet about those who murdered the red protesters. Can you smell the hypocrisy ?

At the moment mostly from you.

[lazurus]

As for the cops and soldiers around Kon Kaen who are wilting like pansies in a drought: Firm recriminations are in order - though who will enforce discipline? ....if so many cops/soldiers are wimping out?

Nice to see you are calling for firm recriminations, and not the death penalty for a change

brahmburgars never advocated the death penalty or killing reds to close down the rally.

That was red interpretations to discredit his firm stance on law and order reinstitution.

The death penalty or life without parole is quite appropriate for any who kill from stealth

while using others as shields or a distraction... Any group doing this is liable.

Sure, but he is all too quick to give the death penalty to those who attacked and killed the soldiers but is very quiet about those who murdered the red protesters. Can you smell the hypocrisy ?

It might just be the same people, so what hypocrisy? Soldiers and police following orders are usually treated different than criminals rioting in the streets anyway. The police are obligated to try and enforce the law. The protesters have a choice, and they used it to fight with the army instead of peacefully dispersing.

[Tod Daniels]

And before any witty reader of T/V comments, YES I put this post in another related thread as well. if you don't like it, please put me on ignore.

I think it might behoove all the red supporters to rethink the “intensify pressure” mind-set. I just came from chatting with the soldiers at the mouth of my Soi (Suk-Soi 12) as well as on all the crossovers, and the Asok skyway.

They are VERY WELL armed with TAR-21 assault rifles and short barreled 12 gauge 'riot' shotguns. From the shotgun rounds visible in their bandoliers slung around their bodies, it would appear, they have both rubber 'sabot' rounds (most of the rounds) as well what looked like buckshot too (many less rounds). Although IMO solid lead slugs with their low velocity would be a better choice for limiting collateral damage in a crowd as opposed to the “spray and pray” pattern of buckshot.

The ones with Tavor-21's have their vests stuffed with full mags, as well carrying many smoke and/or flash-bang (concussion) grenades too. They are really ready for anything which is good, as you can't predict what will happen. Way better for them to be prepared for ANY contingency then not prepared like before.

They also have about a dozen or more of the waist high orange street barricades (the kind you put in place and fill with water which has clips to hold barb-wire). They are placed in front of the Times Square building along with about 12 rolls coiled of razor wire.

I think this is a good form of 'containment' when the time comes to push the dwindling mob from their Rachaprasong ‘moo-ban’; close down the roads, corral 'em in, keep reinforcements and other out. Finally the soldiers are exhibiting crowd dispersal 101 techniques and tactics.

With that being said, the soldiers in this area are semi-celebrities to say the least. In just in the 20 minutes I chatted with them, I saw foreign tourists ask to be photographed standing next to the soldiers at least 70 times. (The soldiers should charge $$ for this, like the tourist area street bug sellers do!! )

It also appears that when soldiers and police broke the up-country barricades to get thru, the reds cried foul and are going to fill assault charges against them.. Wait, aren't the redz the one breaking the law in the first place by blocking PUBLIC highways with their b/s barricades? Or am I mistaken and any mob can block a highway and conduct searches of vehicles? Although I just read the Thanyaburi Court sentenced 11 red shirts to 15 days in jail for setting up check points along Pholyothin Rd; and they were jailed immediately!! So progress in the renegade blockadez.

That's almost as comical as ‘whacky’ Dr. Weng’s statement on the red stage this morning about the red leaders NOT approving the blocking of the BTS Chidlom station with tires. Wait a second, isn't the BTS Chidlom station inside the red moo-ban area? How did 'fake redz' carry frickin' truck tires UP onto the platform with NO 'real redz' seeing it or even questioning what they were doing. Strange that Weng said they should remove the tires, but it took another 2 hours for the message to travel from the stage to the station. Even though you can clearly hear what any redz speaker on stage says when standing in the station itself. The mind wobbles at the insanity of the red leaders mentality in this fracas.

I commend the thai government for playing them with kid-gloves so far. Sadly, for the redz, (or as they're now known, the color-less, non-privileged shirtz) and really everyone involved in this; I think it the gloves gonna come off quite soon.

Edited April 27, 2010 by tod-daniels

[bkkjames]

And before any witty reader of T/V comments, YES I put this post in another related thread as well. if you don't like it, please put me on ignore.

I think it might behoove all the red supporters to rethink the “intensify pressure” mind-set. I just came from chatting with the soldiers at the mouth of my Soi (Suk-Soi 12) as well as on all the crossovers, and the Asok skyway.

They are VERY WELL armed with TAR-21 assault rifles and short barreled 12 gauge 'riot' shotguns. From the shotgun rounds visible in their bandoliers slung around their bodies, it would appear, they have both rubber 'sabot' rounds (most of the rounds) as well what looked like buckshot too (many less rounds). Although IMO solid lead slugs with their low velocity would be a better choice for limiting collateral damage in a crowd as opposed to the “spray and pray” pattern of buckshot.

The ones with Tavor-21's have their vests stuffed with full mags, as well carrying many smoke and/or flash-bang (concussion) grenades too. They are really ready for anything which is good, as you can't predict what will happen. Way better for them to be prepared for ANY contingency then not prepared like before.

They also have about a dozen or more of the waist high orange street barricades (the kind you put in place and fill with water which has clips to hold barb-wire). They are placed in front of the Times Square building along with about 12 rolls coiled of razor wire.

I think this is a good form of 'containment' when the time comes to push the dwindling mob from their Rachaprasong ‘moo-ban’; close down the roads, corral 'em in, keep reinforcements and other out. Finally the soldiers are exhibiting crowd dispersal 101 techniques and tactics.

With that being said, the soldiers in this area are semi-celebrities to say the least. In just in the 20 minutes I chatted with them, I saw foreign tourists ask to be photographed standing next to the soldiers at least 70 times. (The soldiers should charge $$ for this, like the tourist area street bug sellers do!! )

It also appears that when soldiers and police broke the up-country barricades to get thru, the reds cried foul and are going to fill assault charges against them.. Wait, aren't the redz the one breaking the law in the first place by blocking PUBLIC highways with their b/s barricades? Or am I mistaken and any mob can block a highway and conduct searches of vehicles? Although I just read the Thanyaburi Court sentenced 11 red shirts to 15 days in jail for setting up check points along Pholyothin Rd; and they were jailed immediately!! So progress in the renegade blockadez.

That's almost as comical as ‘whacky’ Dr. Weng’s statement on the red stage this morning about the red leaders NOT approving the blocking of the BTS Chidlom station with tires. Wait a second, isn't the BTS Chidlom station inside the red moo-ban area? How did 'fake redz' carry frickin' truck tires UP onto the platform with NO 'real redz' seeing it or even questioning what they were doing. Strange that Weng said they should remove the tires, but it took another 2 hours for the message to travel from the stage to the station. Even though you can clearly hear what any redz speaker on stage says when standing in the station itself. The mind wobbles at the insanity of the red leaders mentality in this fracas.

I commend the thai government for playing them with kid-gloves so far. Sadly, for the redz, (or as they're now known, the color-less, non-privileged shirtz) and really everyone involved in this; I think it the gloves gonna come off quite soon.

Well Tod, I thought it was pretty good in the other thread but after reading it a second time mate, it's growing on me. Please advise where you will post in next do I can see if I still hold it in such high regard.

Thanks

Edited April 27, 2010 by bkkjames

[Siripon]

And before any witty reader of T/V comments, YES I put this post in another related thread as well. if you don't like it, please put me on ignore.

I think it might behoove all the red supporters to rethink the “intensify pressure” mind-set. I just came from chatting with the soldiers at the mouth of my Soi (Suk-Soi 12) as well as on all the crossovers, and the Asok skyway.

They are VERY WELL armed with TAR-21 assault rifles and short barreled 12 gauge 'riot' shotguns. From the shotgun rounds visible in their bandoliers slung around their bodies, it would appear, they have both rubber 'sabot' rounds (most of the rounds) as well what looked like buckshot too (many less rounds). Although IMO solid lead slugs with their low velocity would be a better choice for limiting collateral damage in a crowd as opposed to the “spray and pray” pattern of buckshot.

The ones with Tavor-21's have their vests stuffed with full mags, as well carrying many smoke and/or flash-bang (concussion) grenades too. They are really ready for anything which is good, as you can't predict what will happen. Way better for them to be prepared for ANY contingency then not prepared like before.

I saw the interview with Weng on TV and he looked at a loss for words, even he couldn't justify such idiotic behaviour.

They also have about a dozen or more of the waist high orange street barricades (the kind you put in place and fill with water which has clips to hold barb-wire). They are placed in front of the Times Square building along with about 12 rolls coiled of razor wire.

I think this is a good form of 'containment' when the time comes to push the dwindling mob from their Rachaprasong ‘moo-ban’; close down the roads, corral 'em in, keep reinforcements and other out. Finally the soldiers are exhibiting crowd dispersal 101 techniques and tactics.

With that being said, the soldiers in this area are semi-celebrities to say the least. In just in the 20 minutes I chatted with them, I saw foreign tourists ask to be photographed standing next to the soldiers at least 70 times. (The soldiers should charge $$ for this, like the tourist area street bug sellers do!! )

It also appears that when soldiers and police broke the up-country barricades to get thru, the reds cried foul and are going to fill assault charges against them.. Wait, aren't the redz the one breaking the law in the first place by blocking PUBLIC highways with their b/s barricades? Or am I mistaken and any mob can block a highway and conduct searches of vehicles? Although I just read the Thanyaburi Court sentenced 11 red shirts to 15 days in jail for setting up check points along Pholyothin Rd; and they were jailed immediately!! So progress in the renegade blockadez.

That's almost as comical as ‘whacky’ Dr. Weng’s statement on the red stage this morning about the red leaders NOT approving the blocking of the BTS Chidlom station with tires. Wait a second, isn't the BTS Chidlom station inside the red moo-ban area? How did 'fake redz' carry frickin' truck tires UP onto the platform with NO 'real redz' seeing it or even questioning what they were doing. Strange that Weng said they should remove the tires, but it took another 2 hours for the message to travel from the stage to the station. Even though you can clearly hear what any redz speaker on stage says when standing in the station itself. The mind wobbles at the insanity of the red leaders mentality in this fracas.

I saw the interview on TV with Weng and he really looked at a loss for what to say, even he couldn't justify this idiotic red behaviour.

I commend the thai government for playing them with kid-gloves so far. Sadly, for the redz, (or as they're now known, the color-less, non-privileged shirtz) and really everyone involved in this; I think it the gloves gonna come off quite soon.

Edited April 27, 2010 by Siripon

[Siripon]

Weng looked at a complete loss for words in his interview on TV this lunchtime, even he couldn't justify such idiotic red behaviour.

[SomTumTiger]

Weng looked at a complete loss for words in his interview on TV this lunchtime, even he couldn't justify such idiotic red behaviour.

Stupid is as stupid does.

[jdinasia]

As for the cops and soldiers around Kon Kaen who are wilting like pansies in a drought: Firm recriminations are in order - though who will enforce discipline? ....if so many cops/soldiers are wimping out?

Nice to see you are calling for firm recriminations, and not the death penalty for a change

brahmburgars never advocated the death penalty or killing reds to close down the rally.

That was red interpretations to discredit his firm stance on law and order reinstitution.

The death penalty or life without parole is quite appropriate for any who kill from stealth

while using others as shields or a distraction... Any group doing this is liable.

Sure, but he is all too quick to give the death penalty to those who attacked and killed the soldiers but is very quiet about those who murdered the red protesters. Can you smell the hypocrisy ?

Huh? It appears that Sae daeng's "ronin" did almost all the killing. That being said, an officer doing his duty, following lawful orders, and defending the country is certainly not going to be brought up on charges. Those that are violating lawful orders to disperse and commiting acts of terrorism will certainly be brought up on charges that will (and should) include the death penalty. The autopsy reports showed people dieing from high velocity amunition and being struck from back to front. The reds needed martyrs and made sure that they got them.

[chantorn]

MCOT: Bangkok Municipality won't collect garbage at protest site; 4 garbage trucks seized by demonstrators returned only with difficulty

Another brilliant move by the "red shirts". I guess they want to stew in their own filth.

Pretty much doing biological warfare on themselves.

Maybe the RED can collect themselves and dump it in front of those houses that they don't like. E.g. Prem, Mark, Suthep, etc.

[Tod Daniels]

Weng looked at a complete loss for words in his interview on TV this lunchtime, even he couldn't justify such idiotic red behaviour.

Stupid is as stupid does.

Here's one just to keep the poster known as 'bkkjames" interested in my posting penchants ;

As Robert Downey Jr. playing the black Sergeant Lincoln Osiris told Ben Stiller playing Tugg Speedman about Tugg's flop movie “Simple Jack” in the ‘cult classic’ movie “Tropic Thunder”;

"Everybody knows you never go full retard"

"Check it out.. Dustin Hoffman, 'Rain Man,' look retarded, act retarded, not retarded. Counted toothpicks, cheated cards. Autistic, sho'. Not retarded.

You know Tom Hanks, 'Forrest Gump.' Slow, yes. Retarded, maybe. Braces on his legs. But he charmed the pants off Nixon and won a ping-pong competition. That ain't retarded.

Peter Sellers, "Being There." Infantile, yes. Retarded, no.

You went full retard, man. Never go full retard.

You don't buy that? Ask Sean Penn, 2001, "I Am Sam." Remember? Went full retard, went home empty handed.."

I think ‘whacky’ Weng went full retard this morning and is gonna go home 'empty handed' too, (possibly with them cuffed together as well.)

[rixalex]

How did 'fake redz' carry frickin' truck tires UP onto the platform with NO 'real redz' seeing it or even questioning what they were doing.

It is pretty funny when you consider how quickly the railway guards pounce on people trying to get through the turnstiles with drinks.

[Silurian]

How did 'fake redz' carry frickin' truck tires UP onto the platform with NO 'real redz' seeing it or even questioning what they were doing.

It is pretty funny when you consider how quickly the railway guards pounce on people trying to get through the turnstiles with drinks.

They better start putting up those "No Tyres Allowed" stickers next to the "No Food or Drink Allowed" ones.

[lazurus]

Minister urges reds to let kids attend school, Headline from Nation

Seems like good advice all round.

[JohnLeech]

They are VERY WELL armed with TAR-21 assault rifles and short barreled 12 gauge 'riot' shotguns. From the shotgun rounds visible in their bandoliers slung around their bodies, it would appear, they have both rubber 'sabot' rounds (most of the rounds) as well what looked like buckshot too (many less rounds). Although IMO solid lead slugs with their low velocity would be a better choice for limiting collateral damage in a crowd as opposed to the "spray and pray" pattern of buckshot.

What on earth are you talking about?

"rubber 'sabot' rounds"?? Sabots are used in either armour piercing (APDS or APFSDS) or flechette rounds; they let you fire a small calibre round from a large calibre barrel to increase the velocity of the round - the opposite of the desired effect with a rubber bullet.

"solid lead slugs" would limit "collateral damage"??? Solid lead slugs, unless fired from a full length rifled barrel (which these are not) are notoriously inaccurate as well as extremely lethal - again, the opposite of what you want if you want to reduce collateral damage. They have no place whatsoever in crowd control - if you want to engage or kill a specific target you would use a rifle, not a weapon which is inherently inaccurate. Buckshot (or, more accurately, birdshot) is used as a "halfway" stage between rubber bullets and rifle fire, to hurt rather than to kill or maim (although injuries, particularly to the eyes, often result).

Yours was an interesting post from someone actually "on the ground". Why spoil it by introducing unnecessary detail on a subject you clearly know nothing about?

[Tod Daniels]

Yours was an interesting post from someone actually "on the ground". Why spoil it by introducing unnecessary detail on a subject you clearly know nothing about?

Belive me I have shot ALL the above mentioned weapons and you are talkin' soo far outta your ass as to be NOT even funny.

12 gauge slugs have a very slow FPS velocity, actually they are a much BETTER crowd crontol weapon as they selectively target people. And ALL 12 gauge "rubber rounds" are "sabot", (go Google it) meaning that they have a paper and/or plastic wrapping which falls away as the round travels out of the barrel, meaning ONLY the rubber hits the target, NOTHING else unless fired from less than 10M, when you get everything in your face!!

I've shot more rounds than you would ever care to count, at both paper targets, as well as living beings. They are what I say they are. Don’t ever dispute me about ammo again.

Like I said go Google it yourself if you don't know first hand. ..

[shawndoc]

Hey Tod, I'm curious as to why lead slugs would be better for crowd control? I understand what you are saying about them being less likely to create collateral damage, but they are extremely lethal. If the goal is crowd control, I would think buckshot set to wide dispersal, shot from a distance would be a better tool. You get to hit multiple people in the crowd with one shot, and less chance of lethally wounding anyone.

Then there's the whole replace the buckshot with rock salt method.....

I'm also surprised we haven't seen use of LRAD, pepper spray (hand held riot sized or truck based), and pepper balls, or any signs of them planning to use it. Seems Thai's are going straight from batons and shields straight to rubber bullets. And the problem with rubber bullets is not only can they be mistaken for live rounds, people shot at close range suffer serious injury or death, which is why they are rarely used by western countries dealing with riots.

I'm also surprised we haven't seen the government try and annoy the protesters out. Cut the power, block the bringing of food into the rally site, and use LRAD or play loud music at night when they want to sleep, and periodically drop CS into the middle of the rally via helicopter. So rather than trying to force them out, just make it uncomfortable for them to stay and watch the numbers drop. (Or alternately watch the red shirts instigate violence against the troops to make them stop, making the red shirts look bad and making it clear they instigated the violence)

[kissdani]

Sure, but he is all too quick to give the death penalty to those who attacked and killed the soldiers but is very quiet about those who murdered the red protesters. Can you smell the hypocrisy ?

Huh? It appears that Sae daeng's "ronin" did almost all the killing. That being said, an officer doing his duty, following lawful orders, and defending the country is certainly not going to be brought up on charges. Those that are violating lawful orders to disperse and commiting acts of terrorism will certainly be brought up on charges that will (and should) include the death penalty. The autopsy reports showed people dieing from high velocity amunition and being struck from back to front. The reds needed martyrs and made sure that they got them.

Evidence???

Following that unsubstiate logic you could also look who is pushing declaration of the state of emegency and martial law.

Some needed incidents to blame the reds. Who are the possible culprits now?

[mommysboy]

I have to really get my head round this, up till now I've felt remote from it, but clearly some big confrontation is under way. So when is the best guess for the big show down? and what sort of casualty numbers?

[bkkjames]

Yours was an interesting post from someone actually "on the ground". Why spoil it by introducing unnecessary detail on a subject you clearly know nothing about?

Belive me I have shot ALL the above mentioned weapons and you are talkin' soo far outta your ass as to be NOT even funny.

12 gauge slugs have a very slow FPS velocity, actually they are a much BETTER crowd crontol weapon as they selectively target people. And ALL 12 gauge "rubber rounds" are "sabot", (go Google it) meaning that they have a paper and/or plastic wrapping which falls away as the round travels out of the barrel, meaning ONLY the rubber hits the target, NOTHING else unless fired from less than 10M, when you get everything in your face!!

I've shot more rounds than you would ever care to count, at both paper targets, as well as living beings. They are what I say they are. Don’t ever dispute me about ammo again.

Like I said go Google it yourself if you don't know first hand. ..

No need to go Postal mate. I believe you know your ammo. Anyways, regardless of a particular calibre - dead is dead.

[JohnLeech]

Yours was an interesting post from someone actually "on the ground". Why spoil it by introducing unnecessary detail on a subject you clearly know nothing about?

Belive me I have shot ALL the above mentioned weapons and you are talkin' soo far outta your ass as to be NOT even funny.

12 gauge slugs have a very slow FPS velocity, actually they are a much BETTER crowd crontol weapon as they selectively target people. And ALL 12 gauge "rubber rounds" are "sabot", (go Google it) meaning that they have a paper and/or plastic wrapping which falls away as the round travels out of the barrel, meaning ONLY the rubber hits the target, NOTHING else unless fired from less than 10M, when you get everything in your face!!

I've shot more rounds than you would ever care to count, at both paper targets, as well as living beings. They are what I say they are. Don't ever dispute me about ammo again. Like I said go Google it yourself if you don't know first hand. ..

Tod, I really don't know or care how many rounds you claim to have fired, or what at, nor do I need to Google it, although you clearly need to Google the meaning of "sabot". A "sabot" is an outer casing or base (usually metal, usually either "pot" or "petal" for obvious reasons) which falls away from the inner core to give it extra velocity. It has nothing to do with a plastic or waxed paper wrapping which simply stops the rubber round heating up and sticking in or leaving residue in the barrel.

12 gauge slugs kill people - that is what they are designed to do (as well as knock down re-inforced doors, break a car's engine block, etc) not incapacitate them. They have no advantage over conventional small arms rounds (as bj said, "dead is dead", irrespective of the size of the hole), but they are far less accurate which is why they are not used for crowd control.

If you are such an expert at "Googling" maybe you could give a simple link to your rubber bullet "sabot" rounds - a simple request for one of your experience.

Hey Tod, I'm curious as to why lead slugs would be better for crowd control? I understand what you are saying about them being less likely to create collateral damage, but they are extremely lethal. If the goal is crowd control, I would think buckshot set to wide dispersal, shot from a distance would be a better tool. You get to hit multiple people in the crowd with one shot, and less chance of lethally wounding anyone.

Then there's the whole replace the buckshot with rock salt method.....

I'm also surprised we haven't seen use of LRAD, pepper spray (hand held riot sized or truck based), and pepper balls, or any signs of them planning to use it. Seems Thai's are going straight from batons and shields straight to rubber bullets. And the problem with rubber bullets is not only can they be mistaken for live rounds, people shot at close range suffer serious injury or death, which is why they are rarely used by western countries dealing with riots.

I'm also surprised we haven't seen the government try and annoy the protesters out. Cut the power, block the bringing of food into the rally site, and use LRAD or play loud music at night when they want to sleep, and periodically drop CS into the middle of the rally via helicopter. So rather than trying to force them out, just make it uncomfortable for them to stay and watch the numbers drop. (Or alternately watch the red shirts instigate violence against the troops to make them stop, making the red shirts look bad and making it clear they instigated the violence)

See above, Shawn - his response, whatever it may be, should give you an idea of his actual experience and knowledge. Why anyone would want to "selectively target people" with a far less accurate but equally lethal weapon (at least as lethal at the short ranges in question) is beyond me.

"Rock salt"

Good for initial shock, the first time, but once its effect is known it is less of a deterrent. The problem of using different ammunition in the same weapon in this situation (eg firing rubber bullets/bird shot/rock salt, even, God help us, solid shot) is two-fold: firstly, in the "fog of war" the firer may well use the wrong ammunition, with possibly lethal consequences for himself as well as those he is firing at; secondly, when you want to have a clear and graduated escalation of response it helps if the opposition (the "mob") can see what level you are about to use (ie, in terms of armed response, you move up from rubber bullets, used in various ways, to bird shot, to live rounds, again used in different ways). The clearer you can make the levels, and what your next response is going to be, the greater your chances of deterring the crowd without actually escalating the situation (which is what crowd control should be about, not "containment" and "corral 'em in", which are exactly what you do not want to do with a large crowd).

" pepper spray", CS, etc.

A number of problems with CS in these circumstances. The main one is the location, which is very public with a lot of innocent people around, which strictly limits the use of CS grenades or anything which would blanket an area such as dropping CS from a helicopter, while hand held sprays are only effective for a few metres, whereas the crowds and the troops are some distance apart here. The other problem in these circumstances is heat - CS not only affects you if it gets in your eyes, nose, mouth, etc, but also if it gets on your skin when you are sweating; believe me, wearing a flak vest, helmet, and a respirator (gas mask) when necessary makes you sweat(!) and CS can be a very double-edged sword. As far as I know (and I am not up-to-date with all the specifics in Thailand) the Thais don't have pepper balls.

"LRAD"

Thai police do have and have used LRAD (Long Range Accoustic Devices) for crowd control, even though its use has not been given much publicity, but its use is very controversial internationally as it can lead to permanent deafness and other long term problems; it is also very much an area weapon, at least in the form I believe the Thai police have, which could be a consideration.

"Loud music", etc. The troops have to sleep too - and some people may even enjoy it!

The biggest problem is that, as usual, the security forces did nothing until everything was up and running and had been for some time. It is difficult to know if this was due to political or police/military reluctance to act, but either way the longer they left it the less chance there was of resolving the situation with a minimum use of force and the more chance there was of a violent confrontation - maybe that was what some people wanted.

Edited April 28, 2010 by JohnLeech

[Tod Daniels]

In other news; Today the soldiers stationed near my apartment at the Asok BTS/MRT and the Robinsons/Sheraton sky-bridge who don't have TAV-21's now seem to be armed only with single shot break-barrel shotguns and the earlier pump action ones I saw at first are no where to be seen. (Actually I did see an ancient Remington pump which looked as if it was dragged behind a motocycle to get it here ). ..

Sadly (for the soldiers) the type of shotgun they are now armed with has a really slow rate of fire in the way of 'rounds per minute' compared to pump or semi auto crowd control shotguns (the most modern even have 20 round drum magazines). The soldiers carrying shot guns still appear to have the same break down of ammo; the hard single rubber bullets, and some type of shot loaded shells; which I can't tell if it's lead or rubber buckshot.

It is my experience when confronted with poorly trained and/or badly coordinated crowds; if you drop a few people thru selective targeting the rest will scatter. This fact was clearly shown here when the thai soldiers met a force with far less fire power capabilities but with superior coordination in their method of attack on April 10. Once that command/control center Humvee was hit; the video(s) of the subsequent retreat of the soldiers who discarded their gunz, ammo, flash/bangs, body armor, shields, and almost everything as they fled is a lesson for the thai military to remember.

It is puzzling to me; if in fact they're arming soldiers with shotguns and NOT wanting to kill people outright, why don’t the thais use the so-called 'bean-bag' rounds so prevalent in the US/UK for less-lethal or non-lethal crowd control? The newest generation of that type is called a "sperm round" (because they have a cloth 'tail' that stabilizes their flight). They're filled with small diameter lead shot, wrapped in ballistic cloth. They'll knock a person off their feet from quite a good distance with a thigh shot, and certainly knock the wind out of someone with a center mass body shot.

That type of round is by far the least lethal shotgun rounds out there for crowd control. Once they hit almost all their kinetic energy is imparted to the target and the spent projectile just drops to the ground. They are designed to be direct fired selectively at individual targets, meaning you actually aim at the opponent, as opposed to most recommended methods of firing rubber bullets where you are supposed to hit the ground a in front of an opponent and 'skip or ricochet' the round into their lower body. Although the shot gun rubber bullet can be direct fired, in short range confrontations, as "JohnLeech" said 'dead is dead'.

Given that thailand has NO armed forces actually trained in crowd dispersal and/or control, using soldiers for a task they are not trained for is fraught with peril and carries with it a high degree of error. (As in the US soldiers dismal failure in crowd control after our 'liberation of Baghdad' and the rampant looting, burning and pillaging which ensued).

As an aside, in rebuttal that the solid rubber rounds for shotguns are 'sabot rounds'; ANYTHING which wraps a projectile is technically a 'sabot'. Source; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabot Notice the picture of the shotgun shell showing the wad cup as an example of a sabot. FWIW most rubber bullets for a 12 gauge shotgun are around .65-.68 caliber, and most 12 gauge shotguns are bored from about .73 to over .80 caliber, necessitating the need for something called a sabot to fill the void.

BACK ON TOPIC: I did ask one older soldier who seemed to be coordinating the young troops near me when we might expect something like a crack down. He said, right now they're on containment duty only, BUT when I see the razor wire and orange barricades block off Sukhumvit AND my cell phone can't get a signal, that I should return HOME IMMEDIATELY.

And now back to the pissing match already in progress

[JohnLeech]

Given that thailand has NO armed forces actually trained in crowd dispersal and/or control, using soldiers for a task they are not trained for is fraught with peril and carries with it a high degree of error. (As in the US soldiers dismal failure in crowd control after our 'liberation of Baghdad' and the rampant looting, burning and pillaging which ensued).

Not correct. The Thai military is trained in crowd control by JUSMAGTHAI (the Joint US Military Advisory Group Thailand) under its IMET (international Military Education and Training) programme (suspended briefly from 2006 - 2008). They are located in the Royal Thai Supreme Command compound on Sathorn Thai Road. Some training takes place as part of Cobra Gold, while other training is done by visiting police and military training teams. I think the effectiveness of their training speaks for itself.

..... why don't the thais use the so-called 'bean-bag' rounds so prevalent in the US/UK for less-lethal or non-lethal crowd control? The newest generation of that type is called a "sperm round" (because they have a cloth 'tail' that stabilizes their flight). They're filled with small diameter lead shot, wrapped in ballistic cloth. They'll knock a person off their feet from quite a good distance with a thigh shot, and certainly knock the wind out of someone with a center mass body shot. ..... They are designed to be direct fired selectively at individual targets, meaning you actually aim at the opponent, as opposed to most recommended methods of firing rubber bullets where you are supposed to hit the ground a in front of an opponent and 'skip or ricochet' the round into their lower body.

These rounds are not used in the UK. The British Police have used use the L60A1 AEP (Attenuating Energy Projectile) since 2005, when it replaced the L21A1 PBR (Plastic Baton Round), which saw comparatively little use after it was introduced in 2001 to replace the L5A7 which was used widely in Northern Ireland since 1972. The main difference between the L60A1 and its predecessors is that it has a domed head with a void, which gives it more accuracy and less lethality in the event of a head shot.

Bean-bag rounds, widely used in the US, were trialled but found to be too inaccurate and to have too little effect; sock rounds (not called "sperm rounds", except as a joke) were found to be more accurate but also to be ineffective. The effectiveness of plastic/rubber bullets varies, as I have mentioned elsewhere at some length.

Bouncing rubber bullets off the ground went out, at least in the UK, decades ago.

Sadly (for the soldiers) the type of shotgun they are now armed with has a really slow rate of fire in the way of 'rounds per minute' compared to pump or semi auto crowd control shotguns

Riot control shotguns are generally manually operated, usually pump action (such as the Remington 870 and Mossberg 500 or 590), as riot control rounds do not have the energy to cycle gas or recoil operated firearms so semi auto shotguns invariably jam.

As an aside, in rebuttal that the solid rubber rounds for shotguns are 'sabot rounds'; ANYTHING which wraps a projectile is technically a 'sabot'. Source; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabot Notice the picture of the shotgun shell showing the wad cup as an example of a sabot.

Tod, let me remind you that you said "And ALL 12 gauge "rubber rounds" are "sabot", (go Google it)" and I replied "If you are such an expert at "Googling" maybe you could give a simple link to your rubber bullet "sabot" rounds - a simple request for one of your experience." Put up or shut up.

Your link to Wiki (and if you have to resort to an unsourced and unreferenced article in Wiki you must be scraping the barrel, no pun intended) makes no mention of "rubber rounds" (they are actually called rubber bullets, for obvious reasons), nor does it say anywhere that "ANYTHING which wraps a projectile is technically a 'sabot'." The picture you refer to is also not of a "wad cup", but of a cup sabot (your Wiki ref: "A cup sabot merely supports the base and rear end of a projectile.") for a hunting round designed for a rifled barrel and a slug designed specifically to kill deer and similar game.

I really could not care less about the technicalities of this sort of thing, which is of absolutely no importance, but my point is that anyone who posts something which is deliberately embellished, even though it is unimportant, which can be easily verified as incorrect, can hardly be trusted to make an accurate post about something which is important but cannot be verified.

If you can post a link showing that " ALL 12 gauge "rubber rounds" are "sabot", (go Google it)" I will apologize unreservedly; if not, then piss away as there is no point in further discussion.

[tonyPhuket]

Please think of children and old people first no matter regardless to red shirts or other parties whatever they are.

Set the example of volience is bad idea for them.

Set the negoiation is good idea for them

Calm down all the parties for today.

Have a glass of water and think positively.

All the co-operations will be appreciated

[sharkwatch]

who cares what guns they have? fact is as long as the red mob is hiding between children , woman and old people you cant use any of them .

[SomTumTiger]

who cares what guns they have? fact is as long as the red mob is hiding between children , woman and old people you cant use any of them .

Yes, but when the reds go on "walkabout" the women and children are left behind, and all the young thugs are out causing trouble. Shoot 'em all.

[JohnLeech]

who cares what guns they have? fact is as long as the red mob is hiding between children , woman and old people you cant use any of them .

Agreed, but see below.

who cares what guns they have? fact is as long as the red mob is hiding between children , woman and old people you cant use any of them .

Yes, but when the reds go on "walkabout" the women and children are left behind, and all the young thugs are out causing trouble. Shoot 'em all.

I wouldn't say "shoot 'em all" as the long term solution, but the point about when they 'go on "walkabout"' is very valid. When several thousand left the main mob to join another group, going along a motorway, that was the ideal time to split the mob up further, to disperse all those on the move and to arrest those leading that particular group. Instead the security forces followed the policy of "containment", which has been shown consistently never to work with a large, violent crowd under these circumstances, and blocked their way.

They should instead have made it easier for them to leave and as they passed suitable locations, with pre-positioned concealed troops and equipment (water cannons and airport fire engines with high pressure foam are ideal) those at the back of the group should have been "salami-sliced" away until only the leaders were left who could be arrested relatively easily. A variation is to give the mob a police escort along any route they choose - vanity nearly always wins over logic, as not only do the security forces know the route in advance but the escort can gradually increase their speed so that the mob start to get spread out.

Containment, as practiced here and as taught and practiced in the US (and, fortunately briefly, by the police in the UK) is a disaster under these circumstances; when a mob has nowhere to go and violence is considered "accepable" the level of violence escalates like a bottle of soda being shaken, or a caged animal being taunted. The only times containment works is when the mob is relatively small and easily controlled or when the aim is to arrest and detain all the participants, regardless of casualties on either side - totally unnecessary as far as identifying and arresting key figures/leaders is concerned, as arrests can always be made later; I was amused, for example, to see the number of those in the group on the motorway who were clearly intent on concealing their identity with bandanas over their faces but who had neglected to cover up their vehicle number plates.

The principles of Command, Control, Communications, Intelligence, Training and Equipment (C3ITE) needed to be successful in any internal security operation (or any military and indeed most other situations) are simply non-existent here. The senior commanders are in the wrong place (there was no reason for them to be so close to the mob that they could be engaged by an M79 grenade, and every reason for them to be located elsewhere); their own forces are poorly controlled (some troops are using slingshots to wage their own battles and others were simply ditching their equipment and vehicles, while there are clearly casualties from friendly fire); communication is poor at every level; the mob seem to have better intelligence, or at least the ability to react to what intelligence they have, than the security forces; despite decades of dealing with mobs and violent demonstrations the military appear to be totally untrained and unprepared for what is now a regular occurence and, whether they like to admit it or not, their most regular task; the only thing they have in their favour is that they have sufficient equipment, but that it is useless unless they know how to use it properly.

To me the present situation is a disaster on every level. In the short term the "stand-off" could still be resolved successfully with a minimum of casualties, despite the countless mistakes made so far, if only those in charge had any idea what they were doing; in the long term the problem is simply going to go on repeating itself indefinitely unless an acceptable solution is found, personal ambition and greed take a back seat, and a real leader emerges. Sadly, I can't see any sign of any of that happening.