Bangkok On Edge After Deadly Grenade Blasts

[granuaile]

Many Thais say

It was safer in Thailand under the last Coup

Maybe its time for the army to save the country, we know democracy does not work

Yes, I could not agree more. When the coup happened I was in the US, having been here in March and returning nin Nov. When the coup happened I emailed a friend of mine and asked if she was OK. Her response was "Honestly G, I don't know anyone who doesn't support this" and sent photos of people with the troops. When I came back in November everything was calm.

The red shirts clamor for democracy in their rhetoric but it is just rhetoric, their real goal is to bring their boss back. Everyone knows that. And I agree democracy does not work, I've seen it's failure first hand living in the US for 55 years... I think that if there were a coup we'd see scenes like those my friend sent me photos of in 2006 - children giving ice cream to the soldiers, just as the people in Silom welcomed troops the other day with food and drink and smiles.

Reminds me of the German army welcome, as they liberated the gentle people of eastern europe...

read: http://www.economist.com/world/asia/displa...ory_id=15955366

Well these were from my oldest and most trusted friend here in Thailand, someone I have known for 20 years when she was on leave from her job here to work on her masters in the US. And it is a view that many of my Thai friends echo still." I trust her view of the situation here in Thailand past or present far more than I trust that of any farang "expert" including the coup of 2006.

[petercool]

I have resisted posting in this or other threads about the current situation but feel compelled to.

Yes, the photo of the sword wielding red-shirt is not recent but the one below is.

Ferocity and ill intent is clearly seen and whether or not the red shirt leaders condone that, they certainly are doing nothing to curtail it.

I have lived through many upheavals here since the mid 1960's and this one is the most difficult to understand given the complexities and spins from all sides. I can only add that I do not envy any official who has to decide on any action given the lose-lose scenarios that I can see. I see no win-win scenarios.

[Arkady]

Foreign diplomats to visit rally site : Nuttawut

By The Nation

BANGKOK: -- Foreign envoys of 40 countries will visit the red shirts protesters at Rajprasong rally sites, red shirts leader Nuttawut Saikua said Friday.

The visit scheduled on 4pm clearly showed that the reds' fighting for democracy has been monitored by the international community.

Nuttawut said if PM Abhisit Vejjajiva wanted to disperse the red shirts protesters, he should have it done during the diplomats' visit.

He told the protesters to be a good host by cleaning up the rally sites from Lumpini Park to Ploenjit intersection to welcome the guests.

He said he would invite the diplomats to be on stage during the visit.

-- The Nation 2010-04-23

Do these diplomats realize what danger they would be in ? It would be like going into a hungry lions cage!

The reds have already proved they are a bunch of blood thirsty revolutionary's against ruling elitists.

But it could work out quite well for the governments image if the reds kidnap or even harm some diplomats, as this would perhaps bring world attention to the reds true colours (pun intended)

I wonder which embassies participated. Let me see now - Dubai, Nicaragua, Montegro, Fiji, Uganda, Iran, Cuba, Venezuela, North Korea.

[chantorn]

Many Thais say

It was safer in Thailand under the last Coup

Maybe its time for the army to save the country, we know democracy does not work

Yes, I could not agree more. When the coup happened I was in the US, having been here in March and returning nin Nov. When the coup happened I emailed a friend of mine and asked if she was OK. Her response was "Honestly G, I don't know anyone who doesn't support this" and sent photos of people with the troops. When I came back in November everything was calm.

The red shirts clamor for democracy in their rhetoric but it is just rhetoric, their real goal is to bring their boss back. Everyone knows that. And I agree democracy does not work, I've seen it's failure first hand living in the US for 55 years... I think that if there were a coup we'd see scenes like those my friend sent me photos of in 2006 - children giving ice cream to the soldiers, just as the people in Silom welcomed troops the other day with food and drink and smiles.

Reminds me of the German army welcome, as they liberated the gentle people of eastern europe...

read: http://www.economist.com/world/asia/displa...ory_id=15955366

The Economist is so obviouslt RED. Just look at their logo. There is no other colour.

[Xangsamhua]

Any news on the anti-red rally at Royal Plaza?

[chameleon1977]

I my honest opinion, which will mean little to anybody but what the he_ll i'm going to add it, Abhisit has only himself to blame for this whole mess caused by the Red Shirts.

From the very beginning he was too lenient with their encampent at Central. Hindsight being a wonderful pain in the ar_se, i am sure evrybody will agree that the encampent should never have been allowed to happen, double standards or not. An immediate show of force might have been the answer way back then. However we will never know.

I am a fan of Abhisit and i believe that he has this country's best interest at heart. In my opinion he is a true believer in democracy and given the right amount of time to prove himself he may have changed the minds of many Thaksin supporters. Perhaps this is one reason why the red's are where they are now, in some crazy attempt to affect people's judgment of him as a leader.

At this moment i believe that the only way out of this mess is for him to call to an election in 6-9 months, be allowed to run the country properly until such time (hopefully showing many of the Thaksin supporters his abilities during this time) and the Red leaders to agree to it. i really don't believe that will happen so i see there being no other way out than using force.

Can somebody tell me why the military and the police can't enter the red's camps in riot gear with only truncheons and shields and physically remove the reds, put them in the large black trucks that are all over the capital and take them to a compund to be processed? And by processed i mean names, photo's, fingerprints etc and then sent back to their home towns at the governments expense. Why the need for firearms and ammo, be it rubber or live. This sort of thing used to happen every saturday afternoon outside pubs and football grounds in the UK. If the red shirt terrorist division (and lets be honest here, there is one) decide to use firearms, then and only then arm troops.

A show of physical force rather than lethal force may have an effect? Who know's.

Short term memory loss without impairment of long term memory is an indicator of Alzheimer's Disease. The army was sent in in crowd control/dispersal mode a couple of weeks ago, and were savagely attacked leading to 25 deaths. If you can't remember that, but can remember your childhood, you should consult a doctor, if you can remember where his surgery is located.

Actually this makes sense to me. Move in with the soldiers and police in riot gear, along with the tractors. Do it in broad daylight with an army of reporters not far behind. Film the whole thing from every angle possible. Remove red shirts from the periphery to waiting vans, trucks, and buses.

I'm no expert but I would imagine the reason they can't just go in with riot gear and shields is because the Red are armed with knives, sharp sticks and in some cases I would imagine guns. Would you go in with a shield against thousands like that. err no!

[chantorn]

Nahhhhh - just mix all that confiscated viagra into the water being delivered to the red camp - wait twenty four hours then go in and march them out just like Noah - two by two

Seriously though, my feeling is that Abhisit has the wrong portion of the army on the streets - he's using infantry, what he needs is the field engineers with their heavy equipment for removing obstructions and clearing terrain.

Just roll forward with side by side bulldozers, dirt-blades lowered, backed up by airfield fire trucks firing water cannons over the bulldozers without let up - it'd wash the less staunch protesters away from the contact lines, and the die-hards would have the choice to move or die ..... thing is, the bulldozers would be pushing so much barricade rubble in front of them, the die-hards wouldn't get within 10 metres of the dirt blade, so it all becomes nominally a use of non-lethal force (protesters hurt by their own bamboo, not army equipment). Heck the firetrucks could even spray fire fighting foam instead of water - that would really disorganise the hordes. Water from water cannon makes it too much like Songkran - and that of course is sanook, not a serious measure.

Other non-lethal weaponry can be deployed and used prior to the move-in by the authorities. For example,

Forget tear gas (more correctly called CS-gas) it's not effective against these sorts of hard core protesters. Use pepper bombs instead.

Soak the streets with water, and add non-lethal electrical charges - stop them from sitting or lying down. Deny them rest and exhaust them.

Begin building the barricades to deny egress to side sois and pedestrian alley ways - build a "cattle channel" to herd them all into somewhere like Lumpini or Sanam Luang, with holding pens and segregation areas erected there, so authorities can filter out the "red guards" and leaders - deny them the opportunity to slink off quietly once the troops go in.

There is so much the government and army could be doing to show they're serious and to demoralise / disrupt the reds, which would encourage defection from their camp, but I haven't seen any evidence of any such measures being enacted. There's too much "wait and see" and not enough "prepare and forewarn" from the government to the protesters. They need to see physical activity warning them of what's coming before any verbal warnings will have effect.

Abhisit seems to be taking the measures that Thatcher used against the coal miners in the UK in the 1970s, and I don't believe that will work in this situation. He needs to get creative and bring unrelenting psychological pressure against the rank and file, so they leave of their own accord before the showdown with the hard-core and leaders.

Awesome strategies! Agreed!

The Khon Kean RED slept infront of the seized train. Do you think the train do not have enough raw power to run then down?

My guess id that they may do the same, if you try to bulldoze it down. Sleep in front of the bulldozers.

[chantorn]

Any news on the anti-red rally at Royal Plaza?

I heard on the news that a lot of people turn up. Donation is being collected. They already have their own "multi-colour guards" checking for weapons on people & vehicle coming to join the party, and control the mob.

[whiterussian]

Well these were from my oldest and most trusted friend here in Thailand, someone I have known for 20 years when she was on leave from her job here to work on her masters in the US. And it is a view that many of my Thai friends echo still." I trust her view of the situation here in Thailand past or present far more than I trust that of any farang "expert" including the coup of 2006.

I do know one Thai that had work experience in an amusment park in Florida for 3 months, selling popcorn...

never met a Thai with 'leave' though.

[dude007]

No end in sight. Is there a way to end this peacefully?

In a word 'NO'

Sadly the dithering Abhisit's only choice now is to stop issuing threats to send in armed troops, and to actually bloody do it. Which could have been avoided if he'd had the strength for which his position as PM calls and had this nipped in the bud weeks ago. (Is he privy to army 'Intelligence' reports on likely outcomes?) But he hasn't.

Abhisit son, NOW!

I really have a second thought on it. This is going to backfire anytime soon. As the red shirts use medieval weapons (barricades with sharpened bamboo sticks), apart from the life amunition that must come from watermelon-police or army, the Govt. should use the same style and starve them by blocking every access to the confined area as they used to do when they surrounded fortified cities in the middle ages... People starved to dead by lack of water and food and surrended...

Learn from history. But don't go too far in this. Sadam Hussein also used other more modern measures to subdue the Kurds: his name was Mohammed Chemical Ali... who ended on a rope the same way like Sadam!

Talk is not relevant anymore. Let the yellow shirts and the non-coloured shirts do the dirty job of cleaning the city and have a full blown civil war which will end the same way it ended in the USA. Apparently, everybody seems to ask for this!

Stay inside your house and start hamstering now: it's going to be ugly!

Edited April 23, 2010 by dude007

[chantorn]

If there is no terrorist element within the Red Shirts, and i willing to accept if i am mistaken, then why do i see so many photographs and video of red shirts in violent situations with weapons.

Are you suggesting that the government or Army are firing grenades at their own people in an attempt to win sympathy?

That picture is so old I am surprised it is not black and white. And yes, I am suggesting that the government are not adverse to collateral damage if it boosts their cause. It would not be the first time and I am sure it will not be the last.

Picture so old....like 12 months....is that old ?? And it was in most major newspapers in the world....great advertising for Thailand....but I suppose by wearing a red shirt it is allowed by some of the expert commentors on this site

Don't get me started. You want to see YELLOW with gun?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbnFPhExOTw Ch11-Thai

AP-English

[way2muchcoffee]

I my honest opinion, which will mean little to anybody but what the he_ll i'm going to add it, Abhisit has only himself to blame for this whole mess caused by the Red Shirts.

From the very beginning he was too lenient with their encampent at Central. Hindsight being a wonderful pain in the ar_se, i am sure evrybody will agree that the encampent should never have been allowed to happen, double standards or not. An immediate show of force might have been the answer way back then. However we will never know.

I am a fan of Abhisit and i believe that he has this country's best interest at heart. In my opinion he is a true believer in democracy and given the right amount of time to prove himself he may have changed the minds of many Thaksin supporters. Perhaps this is one reason why the red's are where they are now, in some crazy attempt to affect people's judgment of him as a leader.

At this moment i believe that the only way out of this mess is for him to call to an election in 6-9 months, be allowed to run the country properly until such time (hopefully showing many of the Thaksin supporters his abilities during this time) and the Red leaders to agree to it. i really don't believe that will happen so i see there being no other way out than using force.

Can somebody tell me why the military and the police can't enter the red's camps in riot gear with only truncheons and shields and physically remove the reds, put them in the large black trucks that are all over the capital and take them to a compund to be processed? And by processed i mean names, photo's, fingerprints etc and then sent back to their home towns at the governments expense. Why the need for firearms and ammo, be it rubber or live. This sort of thing used to happen every saturday afternoon outside pubs and football grounds in the UK. If the red shirt terrorist division (and lets be honest here, there is one) decide to use firearms, then and only then arm troops.

A show of physical force rather than lethal force may have an effect? Who know's.

Short term memory loss without impairment of long term memory is an indicator of Alzheimer's Disease. The army was sent in in crowd control/dispersal mode a couple of weeks ago, and were savagely attacked leading to 25 deaths. If you can't remember that, but can remember your childhood, you should consult a doctor, if you can remember where his surgery is located.

Actually this makes sense to me. Move in with the soldiers and police in riot gear, along with the tractors. Do it in broad daylight with an army of reporters not far behind. Film the whole thing from every angle possible. Remove red shirts from the periphery to waiting vans, trucks, and buses.

I'm no expert but I would imagine the reason they can't just go in with riot gear and shields is because the Red are armed with knives, sharp sticks and in some cases I would imagine guns. Would you go in with a shield against thousands like that. err no!

I understand your point, but it would all be caught on camera and the red shirts would be destroyed as a movement if they were filmed killing unarmed security forces. Send in wave after wave of unarmed security forces.

Edited April 23, 2010 by way2muchcoffee

[dude007]

Any news on the anti-red rally at Royal Plaza?

I heard on the news that a lot of people turn up. Donation is being collected. They already have their own "multi-colour guards" checking for weapons on people & vehicle coming to join the party, and control the mob.

I was this morning on Silom (Saladaeng) and met with a few thousand (2,765 units) of non-coloured shirts loudly shouting for cleaning the city. A number of red tissues was burnt to the great enjoyment of the thai-flag waving people. But I feel that these numbers are growing every day, rapidly, steadily... and are getting organised!

Also many militaries around. No taxi dared to wave the red flag... even not a simple red ribbon!

Edited April 23, 2010 by dude007

[whiterussian]

tri26 Leaving Maneeya just as representatives from Embassies arrive amid cheering from crowd.

21 minutes ago via UberTwitter

DaengPridi Meeting between red leaders and foreign reps live on PTV

15 minutes ago via web

DaengPridi Veera claims that new proposal has been sent to gov for dissolution in 30 days.

11 minutes ago via web

DaengPridi Nothing groundbreaking but symbolically this is a huge get for the reds.

5 minutes ago via web

Edited April 23, 2010 by whiterussian

[shamus]

I thought sleeping and eating patterns in Thailand would prevent something like this happening. It's really hot at the mo isn't it? Can't the army remove that wd40/ub40/whatever the fck it's called energy drink the fisherman farmers from Isaan swig all day from 7-11's, wait 5 mins for em to fall asleep then sweep em away.

I'm glad the sides are colour-coded, makes it really easy to choose one

[whiterussian]

I thought sleeping and eating patterns in Thailand would prevent something like this happening. It's really hot at the mo isn't it? Can't the army remove that wd40/ub40/whatever the fck it's called energy drink the fisherman farmers from Isaan swig all day from 7-11's, wait 5 mins for em to fall asleep then sweep em away.

I'm glad the sides are colour-coded, makes it really easy to choose one

Partly why some think this is all timed as it is.. Its hot, dry, low season... the fields are waiting for the rains... then the reds might be too busy on the farms to go sightseeing in Bangkok! Plus during the rainy season the red women might get wet hair. oh my god!

Edited April 23, 2010 by whiterussian

[WAERTH]

Foreign diplomats to visit rally site : Nuttawut

By The Nation

BANGKOK: -- Foreign envoys of 40 countries will visit the red shirts protesters at Rajprasong rally sites, red shirts leader Nuttawut Saikua said Friday.

The visit scheduled on 4pm clearly showed that the reds' fighting for democracy has been monitored by the international community.

Nuttawut said if PM Abhisit Vejjajiva wanted to disperse the red shirts protesters, he should have it done during the diplomats' visit.

He told the protesters to be a good host by cleaning up the rally sites from Lumpini Park to Ploenjit intersection to welcome the guests.

He said he would invite the diplomats to be on stage during the visit.

-- The Nation 2010-04-23

Do these diplomats realize what danger they would be in ? It would be like going into a hungry lions cage!

The reds have already proved they are a bunch of blood thirsty revolutionary's against ruling elitists.

But it could work out quite well for the governments image if the reds kidnap or even harm some diplomats, as this would perhaps bring world attention to the reds true colours (pun intended)

I wonder which embassies participated. Let me see now - Dubai, Nicaragua, Montegro, Fiji, Uganda, Iran, Cuba, Venezuela, North Korea.

Did it actually take place at all?

W

[animatic]

If there is no terrorist element within the Red Shirts, and i willing to accept if i am mistaken, then why do i see so many photographs and video of red shirts in violent situations with weapons.

Are you suggesting that the government or Army are firing grenades at their own people in an attempt to win sympathy?

That picture is so old I am surprised it is not black and white. And yes, I am suggesting that the government are not adverse to collateral damage if it boosts their cause. It would not be the first time and I am sure it will not be the last.

Picture so old....like 12 months....is that old ?? And it was in most major newspapers in the world....great advertising for Thailand....but I suppose by wearing a red shirt it is allowed by some of the expert commentors on this site

Sept 1-2 2008 Oh that's ancient... What is does show is

A pattern of PPP then PTP using vioelnt Red Shirts to physically harrass

all who don't agree with them. It is a long term pattern.

It goes back to well before this picture of the riot created to give Samak an excuse for a SOE.

[BigBikeBKK]

Coup takers are nothing more than criminals when they overthrow a elected government.

Or, seen from another point of view, they are heroes for removing a corrupt dictator whose political party was convicted of electoral fraud...

[Xangsamhua]

If there is no terrorist element within the Red Shirts, and i willing to accept if i am mistaken, then why do i see so many photographs and video of red shirts in violent situations with weapons.

Are you suggesting that the government or Army are firing grenades at their own people in an attempt to win sympathy?

That picture is so old I am surprised it is not black and white. And yes, I am suggesting that the government are not adverse to collateral damage if it boosts their cause. It would not be the first time and I am sure it will not be the last.

Picture so old....like 12 months....is that old ?? And it was in most major newspapers in the world....great advertising for Thailand....but I suppose by wearing a red shirt it is allowed by some of the expert commentors on this site

Don't get me started. You want to see YELLOW with gun?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbnFPhExOTw Ch11-Thai

AP-English

Chantorn, that footage of the yellow firing on Vipawadi-Rangsit has really done the rounds, as it's such a rarety. I think there's another from the same day in the same area not far from Don Mueang. Apparently they'd been seriously provoked by reds (cab drivers, I think - not sure if they'd been fired on) and this was at a time when PAD protestors were being killed daily by gunfire and grenades.

Instances of PAD using weapons of violence are few, remembering that their protest went on for several months and they were frequently under fire.

Regardless of the rights or wrongs of the red cause, lethal violence and the threat of it has been an integral part throughout the red campaign.

For the PAD's part, Chamlong spoke of how he'd had to restrain his guards from reacting violently, so the human tendency to retaliate - to fight fire with fire - was not missing from the PAD ranks, but, with exceptions, they were not a violent movement - aggressive at times, but not violent.

[Phuket Stan]

If there is no terrorist element within the Red Shirts, and i willing to accept if i am mistaken, then why do i see so many photographs and video of red shirts in violent situations with weapons.

Are you suggesting that the government or Army are firing grenades at their own people in an attempt to win sympathy?

That picture is so old I am surprised it is not black and white. And yes, I am suggesting that the government are not adverse to collateral damage if it boosts their cause. It would not be the first time and I am sure it will not be the last.

Picture so old....like 12 months....is that old ?? And it was in most major newspapers in the world....great advertising for Thailand....but I suppose by wearing a red shirt it is allowed by some of the expert commentors on this site

Don't get me started. You want to see YELLOW with gun?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbnFPhExOTw Ch11-Thai

AP-English

Chantorn....When it comes to colour I am almost colour blind.....I was in Bangkok when some of the yellow shirts were running wild....scary s$it..... the rural people of this country have a very just case to get more of the cake but these red shirts are definitely not going to get it for them....this lot are all about money and power....I sincerly hope that a few genuine leaders come up through the ranks and really lead the deprived to a life they richly deserve and have earnt....its all about showing people the way and number one on that list is a radical overhaul of the education system

Incidently I have just spent 3 weeks in Isaarn at some Thai friends place and believe me these people are dirt poor but great people...Love them to death...Been friends of mine for years...but they are ruled and told what to do by the Phu Yai Baan who are notorious crooks...as i said on another thread they could teach the Bkk so called elites a thing or too about graft and how to sit on people....incidently the whole time I was there I saw very very few actual red shirts...

[Jockey]

As soon as Suthep appears on TV (toothless I noticed yesterday, so he can't bite) I immediately have to switch to independent foreign news outlets to verify his stories. Suthep could easily feature in "Liar Liar part II. While Suthep knew without due investigation that the grenades were fired by the reds, while everybody was looking to a rooftop and soldiers were scrambling to take the stairs in oder to check out a building nearby, Suthep knew precisely where the grenades were fired from. I do not doubt that he knows, as he needs a pretext to start killing more people and stay in power but at least do not embarrass your own forces. They just detained 5 people 2 reds, 3 yellow who were suspects. Those people had to be released right afterwards because Suthep has staged his absurd claim.

Suthep is a disgrace for the country. He is incompetent and power hungry. This turmoil shows also why it was a stupid thing to grant amnesty to coup takers. Coup takers are nothing more than criminals when they overthrow a elected government. Given the fact that the kangaroo courts in Thailand apply laws retroactively there is hope however, a new law can see the people who stand on the roots of this problem (Sonthi cs) go to jail in the future.

Given the fact that prosecutors do not have learned their lessons and still divert ny action of yellow shirt protest leaders the red shirt leaders know that they can do as they pleased they will not be punished anyhow. And if that is the case we just want to make a good breakfast and break some more eggs.

This government has refused to govern. This government was too busy making Thaksin a scapegoat for everything including the hot weather today. If Abhisit has sticked to his promise of reconciliation Thailand was still a good place for tourists and investors. But because Abhisit was only chosen to become prime minister because he is weak, inexperienced and easily manipulated by scrupulous people like Suthep he was put in the driver's seat He is still in the driver's seat only it is sitting a bit uncomfortable now.

The fact that the elite and the army put Abhisit where he is now shows that they are way dumber than the poor rice farmer they so despise. In times of crisis you do not need a man in his 40's born with a silver spoon in his mouth educated in Oxford who never proved himself.

It is time for a new Coup, and time to bring Anand Panyarachun back one more time. At least he has the experience and other than Prem he is respected. So where is the coup and where is Anand. Anopong should not become AnuPANG and kill hundreds of people. Abhisit has to go.

Good post but I think you don't understand Abhist is already under house arrest and has no say in this matter.

[melbpete]

I thought sleeping and eating patterns in Thailand would prevent something like this happening. It's really hot at the mo isn't it? Can't the army remove that wd40/ub40/whatever the fck it's called energy drink the fisherman farmers from Isaan swig all day from 7-11's, wait 5 mins for em to fall asleep then sweep em away.

I'm glad the sides are colour-coded, makes it really easy to choose one

Partly why some think this is all timed as it is.. Its hot, dry, low season... the fields are waiting for the rains... then the reds might be too busy on the farms to go sightseeing in Bangkok! Plus during the rainy season the red women might get wet hair. oh my god!

There aren't too many farmers still there are there? Mostly taxi bikers and drivers.

[melbpete]

BTS' security cameras confirm M79 grenades fired from Lumpini Park: deputy BKK governor

Cue excuses from red supporters ...

[ScouseTommy]

Nahhhhh - just mix all that confiscated viagra into the water being delivered to the red camp - wait twenty four hours then go in and march them out just like Noah - two by two

Seriously though, my feeling is that Abhisit has the wrong portion of the army on the streets - he's using infantry, what he needs is the field engineers with their heavy equipment for removing obstructions and clearing terrain.

Just roll forward with side by side bulldozers, dirt-blades lowered, backed up by airfield fire trucks firing water cannons over the bulldozers without let up - it'd wash the less staunch protesters away from the contact lines, and the die-hards would have the choice to move or die ..... thing is, the bulldozers would be pushing so much barricade rubble in front of them, the die-hards wouldn't get within 10 metres of the dirt blade, so it all becomes nominally a use of non-lethal force (protesters hurt by their own bamboo, not army equipment). Heck the firetrucks could even spray fire fighting foam instead of water - that would really disorganise the hordes. Water from water cannon makes it too much like Songkran - and that of course is sanook, not a serious measure.

Other non-lethal weaponry can be deployed and used prior to the move-in by the authorities. For example,

Forget tear gas (more correctly called CS-gas) it's not effective against these sorts of hard core protesters. Use pepper bombs instead.

Soak the streets with water, and add non-lethal electrical charges - stop them from sitting or lying down. Deny them rest and exhaust them.

Begin building the barricades to deny egress to side sois and pedestrian alley ways - build a "cattle channel" to herd them all into somewhere like Lumpini or Sanam Luang, with holding pens and segregation areas erected there, so authorities can filter out the "red guards" and leaders - deny them the opportunity to slink off quietly once the troops go in.

There is so much the government and army could be doing to show they're serious and to demoralise / disrupt the reds, which would encourage defection from their camp, but I haven't seen any evidence of any such measures being enacted. There's too much "wait and see" and not enough "prepare and forewarn" from the government to the protesters. They need to see physical activity warning them of what's coming before any verbal warnings will have effect.

Abhisit seems to be taking the measures that Thatcher used against the coal miners in the UK in the 1970s, and I don't believe that will work in this situation. He needs to get creative and bring unrelenting psychological pressure against the rank and file, so they leave of their own accord before the showdown with the hard-core and leaders.

Nice idea and i know where your coming from, but do you remember Tiananamen square????? The hardcore would not move and would therefore be run down the repurcusions of that particular act still reverberate today. If that happened in Thailand there would be civil war imho

[Old Man River]

Given Anupong's comments a few minutes ago that the Army won't use force to disperse the people's demonstrations, nor will it stand and watch Thai's killing Thai's, it sounds like marital law is just around the corner. If not martial law, then a coup, but martial law gives them pretty much the same thing without having to go through the morass of opinions that another coup would bring.

[Crushdepth]

Coup takers are nothing more than criminals when they overthrow a elected government.

Or, seen from another point of view, they are heroes for removing a corrupt dictator whose political party was convicted of electoral fraud...

Dissolved for electoral fraud *twice*, and still...ahem..."fighting for democracy".

[Xangsamhua]

Given Anupong's comments a few minutes ago that the Army won't use force to disperse the people's demonstrations, nor will it stand and watch Thai's killing Thai's, it sounds like marital law is just around the corner. If not martial law, then a coup, but martial law gives them pretty much the same thing without having to go through the morass of opinions that another coup would bring.

Sounds rather like that to me, too, OMR, but the army can't impose martial law. He'd have to monster Abhisit to declare it and for dissolution of the parliament to follow. He may want it all to happen before the PAD hit the streets, too. But what are the influential folks behind the scenes saying?

[Crushdepth]

Given Anupong's comments a few minutes ago that the Army won't use force to disperse the people's demonstrations, nor will it stand and watch Thai's killing Thai's

Doesn't leave too many options. Unless he's talking crap - he's done a marvellous job of standing around watching so far.

[stkyricesf]

No end in sight. Is there a way to end this peacefully?

Well, why not let them vote? Plus, it just might save some innocent lives - and some people say, the economy too.

No government should be forced to call elections by violent mobs.

Here Here, anytime violence becomes out of hand and becomes the rule, it is no longer a democrcacy. Just for clarification, the US is not a democracy, it is a republic, how do you think GW Bush became President. My sympathy and patience is wearing thin for the red shirts movement. 6 months is not unreasonalble to throw an election. To desolve any goverment immediately is totally crazy.