Thai Society Cannot Be Changed With Just Discourse

[webfact]

EDITORIAL

Society cannot be changed with just discourse

By The Nation

Wealthy red-shirt leaders complain about vast economic gaps, yet no one has actually offered any solutions

BANGKOK: -- Over the past few weeks, there have been a number of proposals from self-proclaimed honest brokers wanting to see a peaceful settlement to the ongoing political stand-off.

One local non-government organisation proposed what it called a win-win solution that involved the setting up of a caretaker government to prepare for the next general elections. Essentially though, this proposal would mean straying from the rule of law and ditching the Constitution for something that might be considered wishful thinking.

The essence of any democracy is the people's mandate. In Thailand's case, it is the Parliamentarians who are elected by the people.

Instead of straying from the rule of law, we need to stay the course and use the law of the land as a guiding principle. Returning the country to political normalcy should be the motivation, not the agenda of political parties.

As people continue calling for negotiations between the red shirts and the government, they conveniently overlook the complexity of the conflict that is rooted in the country's social structure. In fact, a few government leaders have admitted that though they despise former PM Thaksin Shinawatra and his cunning ways, they share the same grievances as the ordinary red-shirt protesters - the vast social gap between the haves and the have-nots.

At this juncture, the red-shirts are finding themselves in an increasingly awkward position thanks to the grenade attacks on Thursday evening on Silom Road - the country's financial hub.

They were using Flintstone technology, such as home-made rockets and floating lamps, to disturb Army helicopters.

Yet, there is a growing conviction among Bangkokians that the red shirts and the so-called "terrorists" behind the strike on Silom Road, as well as the 40 other unexplained attacks on Army and government installations, are the same people.

Story continues: http://www.nationmultimedia.com/home/2010/...e-30127855.html

-- The Nation 2010-04-24

[newsfooter][/newsfooter]

[geriatrickid]

They were using Flintstone technology, such as home-made rockets and floating lamps, to disturb Army helicopters

In the arsenal of modern warfare, IEDs are primitive and yet the damage done in Iraq & Afghanistan has been heavy. There were those that dismissed the Viet Cong as pajama wearing sandal clad primitives and yet they managed to hold off superior fighting forces. What a foolish man to dismiss the dangers of rockets, blinding laser pointers and potshots. I'd like to see what he would say if he was flying in one and a flare landed in his section, or a pilot was blinded or a rotor damaged. It's tough flying a helicopter in an urban setting with the up and down drafts and all of the buildings in close proximity. I don't think this guy appreciates that the Flintstone technology can and does injure.

[apex2000]

And the writer is hiding in anonymity. Hasn't even got the courage to add his or her name as the writer of this diatribe.

[rabo]

And the writer is hiding in anonymity. Hasn't even got the courage to add his or her name as the writer of this diatribe.

This is normal editorial practice for many newspapers.

[melbpete]

The core of the whole problem: the RICH red leaders are protestingst against the wealth gap, but they haven't offered any solutions.

How will an election solve the problem if the reds don't have any idea how to fix it.

Thaksin and his puppet parties were in power for over 6 years and came up with no LONG TERM solutions to fix the problems of the poor. All they offered were short term vote grabbers, further debt for the poor, and unfunded health policies.

[londonthai]

the long term solution to it's their own problems is in the hands of the have nots, and not in the hands of rich or politicians. Let them decide, through a democratic process, what, how and when to do. So far their access to an independent information, public discussion is suppressed by the biased media controlled by the army and by the governmental censorship. Politicians and the whole politics is corrupt to the core, from the bottom, to the very top (fish rots from the head).

the rich are part of the problem, and offer only some support and partial economic reforms - to their own, particular gains, like getting to power on the back of the popular vote, controlling politicians

[phuketrichard]

the basic problem here is no one wil put there name on anything for no one knows what will take place if a new opposition comes into power.

Imagine what will take palce IF, ( god , i hope not) Thaksin comes back and what he will do to all those that had anything to do with his loss of power.

Does the phrase, " moved to inactive post" sound familiar

Here today,,,,,gone tomorrow

[londonthai]

the new government will have to compromise with the ruling elite, so there won't be any rapid and deep changes in the administration, army or police - in thailand everybody controls each other through multiple connections, everybody knows about each other scams, corruption and they won't incriminate each other.

there is a very slim chance that thaksin will have an active role in politics, the most he will be allowed to come back home and try to get some his money back - but the whole story is a remote future

Edited April 24, 2010 by londonthai

[zorm999]

The core of the whole problem: the RICH red leaders are protestingst against the wealth gap, but they haven't offered any solutions.

How will an election solve the problem if the reds don't have any idea how to fix it.

Thaksin and his puppet parties were in power for over 6 years and came up with no LONG TERM solutions to fix the problems of the poor. All they offered were short term vote grabbers, further debt for the poor, and unfunded health policies.

I'm not at all convinced the red leaders care about the wealth gap because it doesn't personally affect them. I'm sure the rank and file reds care about the wealth gap because it directly affects a lot of them personally.

If the red leaders did care about it, then as you say they would have offered solutions. I believe they just used the wealth gap as part of their justification for protesting. But the fact that when it came down to it, their ONLY demand is for the government to resign, then it shows that they only care about power and don't really care about the wealth gap at all.

If they really did care about the wealth gap, then they would welcome ANY measures that seek to improve it. But let's face it, the LAST thing that Thaksin and the red leaders would want is for the current government to start implementing policies that favor the poor, because that would undermine EVERYTHING they are claiming the current government stands for.

[givenall]

the long term solution to it's their own problems is in the hands of the have nots, and not in the hands of rich or politicians. Let them decide, through a democratic process, what, how and when to do. So far their access to an independent information, public discussion is suppressed by the biased media controlled by the army and by the governmental censorship. Politicians and the whole politics is corrupt to the core, from the bottom, to the very top (fish rots from the head).

the rich are part of the problem, and offer only some support and partial economic reforms - to their own, particular gains, like getting to power on the back of the popular vote, controlling politicians

How many time I have seen this situation. Have not want equality. And as soon as they are in power they become have and still have problem with have not’s. The circle seems to continue for ever

[Gats]

I agree with zorm. I suspect that the self-serving group of Thaksin's cronies would hate to see an educated and optimistic underclass brought about by another government because they would lose their ability to take so much for themselves.

God bless the people being taken for a power grabbing ride by the red shirt leaders. I hope you can find empowerment from people who truely care about your cause and want changes in your lives - not those who use your pain for their own personal gain.

[animatic]

And the writer is hiding in anonymity. Hasn't even got the courage to add his or her name as the writer of this diatribe.

This is normal editorial practice for many newspapers.

It is the 'masteheads editorial position' not any one writer or editor's position.

[animatic]

the long term solution to it's their own problems is in the hands of the have nots, and not in the hands of rich or politicians. Let them decide, through a democratic process, what, how and when to do. So far their access to an independent information, public discussion is suppressed by the biased media controlled by the army and by the governmental censorship. Politicians and the whole politics is corrupt to the core, from the bottom, to the very top (fish rots from the head).

the rich are part of the problem, and offer only some support and partial economic reforms - to their own, particular gains, like getting to power on the back of the popular vote, controlling politicians

Of course you completely ignore the long term red side suppression of free speech and political information flow in the N NE.

There is a complete bottle neck and this has made general understanding essentially impossible.

The bile and lies coming off the stages is a byproduct/symptomatic mechanism of that information control.

Nuttawat said/ordered yesterday, 'allegedly'

that ALL political players must no be given freedom to travel and speak in N. NE.

If that IS true and it actually is enforced, this is a political sea change.

And one of the absolutely necessary parts to getting the Dems to agree to dissolution and elections.

Just like PTP could campaign in Surat Thani without fear, so should all other parties be given freedom to

campaign COUNTRY WIDE.

If ANYONE expects something like free and fair elections and a lessening of national tensions,

the words of all players must be freely heard by all citizens.

Lets look at this headline

Society cannot be changed with just discourse

Two possible meanings,

1 )

Change can't happen with ONLY talking,

but also concrete actions are needed.

This is how it has been read so far.

But meaning 2 ) is

Change can't happen without discourse that is JUST

as in justice

Discourse that is fair to ALL who discourse.

A one sided discourse to change the country, is not just to all parties.

Edited April 24, 2010 by animatic

[Redsunset]

Flinstone technology? Are you serious? Do you really think that is all they had? Didn't they just catch that so-called red shirt actor who had a machine gun in his trunk? Some Flinstone technology that is. I'll bet the red shirts have some pretty sophisticated surface to air rockets that Seh Daeng procured illegally. Don't underestimate corrupt people with money....

[chadintheusa]

The issue of bridging the gap between the haves and have nots is merely wishful thinking. Even in stable democracies in the west there are still large gaps between rich and poor. If Asians believe that in the West there are no poor people they are living in denial. Canada and the USA are democratic countries but there are still large segments of the population who struggle. It is true that western people are able to make more money. Their minimum hourly wage often is more than the minimum daily wage of Thai people. However the cost of living in the west is much greater leaving these people still unable to meet their basic needs. It is possible to rent a small apartment in Bangkok for less than $100, as low as $50-60 in some places. In a western city you will find that rent is often $800 or more for a modest apartment. All other living costs are similarly inflated. This means that many Americans live without health care and other necessities.

Free democracy and a capitalist system is no guarantee that the poor will be any better off. Rich people exploit poor people to make more money for themselves. That is the nature of capitalism. Politicians exploit democracy to make more money for themselves, that is its nature. However when a new party wants to get into power they will make all sorts of promises to the poor to get their votes. You won't find any western democracy where the wealth is evenly distributed among the population. There will always be rich, there will always be poor and to think that a single election can change this is naive at best.

[animatic]

the basic problem here is no one wil put there name on anything for no one knows what will take place if a new opposition comes into power.

Imagine what will take palce IF, ( god , i hope not) Thaksin comes back and what he will do to all those that had anything to do with his loss of power.

Does the phrase, " moved to inactive post" sound familiar

Here today,,,,,gone tomorrow

And lets not leave out the tax money sent to Bangkok that will

never get returned to provinces as services for areas that are anti-Thaksin or PTP.

And then just consider 'Shipping Moo".

Some inactive posts are less active than others...

Revenge in Thailand is often a dish eaten steaming hot

as soon as it is available

[Thai at Heart]

The issue of bridging the gap between the haves and have nots is merely wishful thinking. Even in stable democracies in the west there are still large gaps between rich and poor. If Asians believe that in the West there are no poor people they are living in denial. Canada and the USA are democratic countries but there are still large segments of the population who struggle. It is true that western people are able to make more money. Their minimum hourly wage often is more than the minimum daily wage of Thai people. However the cost of living in the west is much greater leaving these people still unable to meet their basic needs. It is possible to rent a small apartment in Bangkok for less than $100, as low as $50-60 in some places. In a western city you will find that rent is often $800 or more for a modest apartment. All other living costs are similarly inflated. This means that many Americans live without health care and other necessities.

Free democracy and a capitalist system is no guarantee that the poor will be any better off. Rich people exploit poor people to make more money for themselves. That is the nature of capitalism. Politicians exploit democracy to make more money for themselves, that is its nature. However when a new party wants to get into power they will make all sorts of promises to the poor to get their votes. You won't find any western democracy where the wealth is evenly distributed among the population. There will always be rich, there will always be poor and to think that a single election can change this is naive at best.

I just find it funny that the concept that society should try its best to make sure that all the people in the country are fed and watered is often painted with a broad brush "communist" tag. As you say, free capitalism is no guarantee that the poor will be better off. Neither is absolute communism. Of course the path is somewhere in the middle, but if you watch Fox too much, you would believe that every policy ever written to benefit the poor is the one that will push America over the edge to full blown Maoism.

[Thai at Heart]

The issue of bridging the gap between the haves and have nots is merely wishful thinking. Even in stable democracies in the west there are still large gaps between rich and poor. If Asians believe that in the West there are no poor people they are living in denial. Canada and the USA are democratic countries but there are still large segments of the population who struggle. It is true that western people are able to make more money. Their minimum hourly wage often is more than the minimum daily wage of Thai people. However the cost of living in the west is much greater leaving these people still unable to meet their basic needs. It is possible to rent a small apartment in Bangkok for less than $100, as low as $50-60 in some places. In a western city you will find that rent is often $800 or more for a modest apartment. All other living costs are similarly inflated. This means that many Americans live without health care and other necessities.

Free democracy and a capitalist system is no guarantee that the poor will be any better off. Rich people exploit poor people to make more money for themselves. That is the nature of capitalism. Politicians exploit democracy to make more money for themselves, that is its nature. However when a new party wants to get into power they will make all sorts of promises to the poor to get their votes. You won't find any western democracy where the wealth is evenly distributed among the population. There will always be rich, there will always be poor and to think that a single election can change this is naive at best.

I just find it funny that the concept that society should try its best to make sure that all the people in the country are fed and watered is often painted with a broad brush "communist" tag. As you say, free capitalism is no guarantee that the poor will be better off. Neither is absolute communism. Of course the path is somewhere in the middle, but if you watch Fox too much, you would believe that every policy ever written to benefit the poor is the one that will push America over the edge to full blown Maoism.

[ozzieman05]

Thai wife says that on TV you are all talk, with no brain to understand

Farang say Red shirts talk of "double standards"

There is no such thing as "double standards" in Thai culture, you have all been conned big time

LOSS OF FACE is the problem

If yellow shirts can do then we suffer loss of face if we can not do

If the Red shirts over throw the government by demonstrating in the streets, do you not understand, this become part of Thai history

So the next time someone is upset over some thing, Thai history shows whet to do

Protest kill and over throw Thai law and order

Thai will only see as "LOSS OF FACE" if he can not have same same

Time Farang face the truth

Governemt have proved to be weak

Protesting is mob rule and it work

Now Thai's look for a hero to give them back Peace

Peace to a Thai in non confrontation

who will be the Hero

Mr Super T has his hand up

Under certain conditions

What price is PEACE

forget about Democracy this is a Farang word and not part of Thai culture

Edited April 24, 2010 by ozzieman05

[chadintheusa]

I don't think you'll find a communist state where the people really benefited from it. They don't all get rich, more often they all get poor, except those with the best government connections. You won't find a single country using democracy, capitalism or anything else where everyone is well off. It is my opinion that every country relies on having large number of poor people to function. Think about it, poor people will collect trash and do all the McJobs no one else wants because they don't have other options.

[noel2499rk]

The issue of bridging the gap between the haves and have nots is merely wishful thinking. Even in stable democracies in the west there are still large gaps between rich and poor. If Asians believe that in the West there are no poor people they are living in denial. Canada and the USA are democratic countries but there are still large segments of the population who struggle. It is true that western people are able to make more money. Their minimum hourly wage often is more than the minimum daily wage of Thai people. However the cost of living in the west is much greater leaving these people still unable to meet their basic needs. It is possible to rent a small apartment in Bangkok for less than $100, as low as $50-60 in some places. In a western city you will find that rent is often $800 or more for a modest apartment. All other living costs are similarly inflated. This means that many Americans live without health care and other necessities.

Free democracy and a capitalist system is no guarantee that the poor will be any better off. Rich people exploit poor people to make more money for themselves. That is the nature of capitalism. Politicians exploit democracy to make more money for themselves, that is its nature. However when a new party wants to get into power they will make all sorts of promises to the poor to get their votes. You won't find any western democracy where the wealth is evenly distributed among the population. There will always be rich, there will always be poor and to think that a single election can change this is naive at best.

The problem is not just in financial inequality but the inequality in the justice system only in Thailand can a well connected person be convicted of murder and walk out of court the same day on bail.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/search/rea...tak+Pachimsawas

http://www.oknation.net/blog/humanrights/2009/07/11/entry-1

Any Phrai convicted of a similar crime would be executed within weeks or you can compare these two cases to those of Suwicha Thakor and Darunee Charnchoensilpakul sentenced to 10 years and 18 years for thought crimes.

http://thaipoliticalprisoners.wordpress.co...wicha-thakor_1/

http://thaipoliticalprisoners.wordpress.co...nchoensilpakul/

[Thai at Heart]

I don't think you'll find a communist state where the people really benefited from it. They don't all get rich, more often they all get poor, except those with the best government connections. You won't find a single country using democracy, capitalism or anything else where everyone is well off. It is my opinion that every country relies on having large number of poor people to function. Think about it, poor people will collect trash and do all the McJobs no one else wants because they don't have other options.

The irony is that sales of Mcdonalds have nothing to do with the wage they pay their people. The margins are fantastic, they want to be in the market, if minimum wage was set at 20USD per hour, do you think the Mcds would price their big mac at 20 USD? Of course not.

The idea that "people" don't want to do jobs, is purely related to the level of minimum wage that business is able to get government to agree to.

[chadintheusa]

If you think America has a justice system that isn't corrupted by the wealth of the defendant I have two words for you: OJ Simpson.

If you can afford good lawyers in the US you won't see prison nearly as often as someone relying on a public defender.

[connel707]

Thai wife says that on TV you are all talk, with no brain to understand

Farang say Red shirts talk of "double standards"

There is no such thing as "double standards" in Thai culture, you have all been conned big time

LOSS OF FACE is the problem

If yellow shirts can do then we suffer loss of face if we can not do

If the Red shirts over throw the government by demonstrating in the streets, do you not understand, this become part of Thai history

So the next time someone is upset over some thing, Thai history shows whet to do

Protest kill and over throw Thai law and order

Thai will only see as "LOSS OF FACE" if he can not have same same

Time Farang face the truth

Governemt have proved to be weak

Protesting is mob rule and it work

Now Thai's look for a hero to give them back Peace

Peace to a Thai in non confrontation

who will be the Hero

Mr Super T has his hand up

Under certain conditions

What price is PEACE

forget about Democracy this is a Farang word and not part of Thai culture

Your wife MUST be right.... obviously your house is in her name..!!!

[chadintheusa]

I don't think you'll find a communist state where the people really benefited from it. They don't all get rich, more often they all get poor, except those with the best government connections. You won't find a single country using democracy, capitalism or anything else where everyone is well off. It is my opinion that every country relies on having large number of poor people to function. Think about it, poor people will collect trash and do all the McJobs no one else wants because they don't have other options.

The irony is that sales of Mcdonalds have nothing to do with the wage they pay their people. The margins are fantastic, they want to be in the market, if minimum wage was set at 20USD per hour, do you think the Mcds would price their big mac at 20 USD? Of course not.

The idea that "people" don't want to do jobs, is purely related to the level of minimum wage that business is able to get government to agree to.

If the workforce of McDonals did rise to $20 per hour it would raise prices. It would also force competitors to raise wages. It would force skilled jobs to raise wages so that they don't lose workers to McDs. Result, everyone makes more money, then every restaurant raises prices, housing prices go up, consumer goods become more expensive with rising wages. Net result no one is any better off. Corporations pass the cost of rising prices on to consumers they don't take it out of their profits.

[noel2499rk]

If you think America has a justice system that isn't corrupted by the wealth of the defendant I have two words for you: OJ Simpson.

If you can afford good lawyers in the US you won't see prison nearly as often as someone relying on a public defender.

Do you think that someone convicted of murder and sentenced to death in the US would walk free from court the same day? As happens in Thailand.

[RickBradford]

Thais are not brought up to engage in civil society, for the good reason that there is no civil society to engage in. There are no institutions that people actually believe in, except The One we don't talk about; the police, the army, the courts, the bureaucracy are all feudal institutions with their long-held customs of paying tribute and allegiance, and maintaining face at all costs.

Everybody in The System has so many hooks in their back, such a tangled web of alliances and allegiances, that they are paralysed from taking action. If you are not in The System, you simply don't count. Truly, The System is a fraud.

This is a battle between two elites who belong to that system; all the Red Shirt leaders are ex-parliamentarians and this is their fight, to try and get back the privileges they once enjoyed under Thaksin. It is emphatically not a people's revolution -- they are cannon fodder.

[chadintheusa]

If you think America has a justice system that isn't corrupted by the wealth of the defendant I have two words for you: OJ Simpson.

If you can afford good lawyers in the US you won't see prison nearly as often as someone relying on a public defender.

Do you think that someone convicted of murder and sentenced to death in the US would walk free from court the same day? As happens in Thailand.

The net result is the same. They have to work through the system there, here you can pay cash and be done with it. Just like it is easier to bribe the police for a traffic offense than it is to go and pay the ticket legally. Here money can go directly to government officials to get what you want, in the USA the lawyers get it. Doesn't make either system right.

[ozzieman05]

Thai wife says that on TV you are all talk, with no brain to understand

Farang say Red shirts talk of "double standards"

There is no such thing as "double standards" in Thai culture, you have all been conned big time

LOSS OF FACE is the problem

If yellow shirts can do then we suffer loss of face if we can not do

If the Red shirts over throw the government by demonstrating in the streets, do you not understand, this become part of Thai history

So the next time someone is upset over some thing, Thai history shows whet to do

Protest kill and over throw Thai law and order

Thai will only see as "LOSS OF FACE" if he can not have same same

Time Farang face the truth

Governemt have proved to be weak

Protesting is mob rule and it work

Now Thai's look for a hero to give them back Peace

Peace to a Thai in non confrontation

who will be the Hero

Mr Super T has his hand up

Under certain conditions

What price is PEACE

forget about Democracy this is a Farang word and not part of Thai culture

Your wife MUST be right.... obviously your house is in her name..!!!

Typical uneducated Farang reply

Sorry NO

Her house is in her name

and she work hard for every baht she has made and deserves it

My house is in my name

and she respect this fact

But I guess this is something you will never understand

Time to see more of Thailand the Pattaya I think

Edited April 24, 2010 by ozzieman05

[hammered]

Every democracy has a wealthy elite and everyone else. Every demcoracy has double standards particularly at law. Societies usually find balances of these that overall society can bear. Thailand isnt there yet and it will take a lot of time to get there.