Settling Mortgage On My Girlfriends Land

[rufanuf]

I hope someone out there can offer some opinions on this scenario.

My girlfriends mum has 12 rai of land in Isaan. A few years ago due to financial hardship they mortgaged the land for 100,000BHT. 3 and half years have past and they have made no monthyl payments, so now the outstanding mortgage is some 137,000BHT.

My girlfriend has been fretting about this for a year or so, and is worried her family will lose the land. I have suggested I might help, but insisted that if I do the land is transferred into my girfriends name, and I am given a lease or usufruct agreement (so I hopefully have some say/control over the future use of the land...Im particularly keen to make sure they never try to mortgage the land again in the future for trivial purposes, but may also decide to build a house for us in the future).

Has anyone here found themselves in a similar situation...what did they do, how did it work out? How much will it cost me to have the transfer of deed into my girfriends name and the usufruct drawn up? Any way of avoiding the lawyers to do this? (ie someone have a copy of usufruct?)

Thanks in advance for any views and opinions

[sangfroid]

IMO you need to find out much more about this.

They borrowed 100K and have made no repayments for 3 and a half years, but you say the accrued interest, penalties etc only come to 37K Baht?

Has the lender been trying to take possession of the land? Who did they borrow the money from? at what interest rate?

Before committing yourself you need to see all of the documentation and have it officially translated!!

Remember NOTHING in Thailand is ever quite what it seems to be!

[phil2]

IMO you need to find out much more about this.

They borrowed 100K and have made no repayments for 3 and a half years, but you say the accrued interest, penalties etc only come to 37K Baht?

Has the lender been trying to take possession of the land? Who did they borrow the money from? at what interest rate?

Before committing yourself you need to see all of the documentation and have it officially translated!!

Remember NOTHING in Thailand is ever quite what it seems to be!

From what I've been through in the last couple of months, I must say I strongly agree with you.

[jackdawson]

I have suggested I might help

good idea. literally thousands of other chaps w/ thai "GFs" have found true happiness by giving their t rak (more) money via a real estate transaction and helping to divide a thai daughter from her parents (especially khun mae) via a legal instrument

Edited April 27, 2010 by jackdawson

[jackdawson]

From what I've been through in the last couple of months

ut oh

but seriously, isn't "love" a beautiful thing ?

[rufanuf]

IMO you need to find out much more about this.

They borrowed 100K and have made no repayments for 3 and a half years, but you say the accrued interest, penalties etc only come to 37K Baht?

Has the lender been trying to take possession of the land? Who did they borrow the money from? at what interest rate?

Before committing yourself you need to see all of the documentation and have it officially translated!!

Remember NOTHING in Thailand is ever quite what it seems to be!

From what I've been through in the last couple of months, I must say I strongly agree with you.

mind sharing your experience?

[rufanuf]

IMO you need to find out much more about this.

They borrowed 100K and have made no repayments for 3 and a half years, but you say the accrued interest, penalties etc only come to 37K Baht?

Has the lender been trying to take possession of the land? Who did they borrow the money from? at what interest rate?

Before committing yourself you need to see all of the documentation and have it officially translated!!

Remember NOTHING in Thailand is ever quite what it seems to be!

At present there is no attempt fopr possession from the bank..I have three statements in my posession from the bank, the loand has risen over 3 years 111K to 125K to about 137k as of 2 month ago....I will get these statements translated shortly. The bank is the "Agricultural Bank" www baac.or.th

Edited April 27, 2010 by rufanuf

[rgs2001uk]

IMO you need to find out much more about this.

They borrowed 100K and have made no repayments for 3 and a half years, but you say the accrued interest, penalties etc only come to 37K Baht?

Has the lender been trying to take possession of the land? Who did they borrow the money from? at what interest rate?

Before committing yourself you need to see all of the documentation and have it officially translated!!

Remember NOTHING in Thailand is ever quite what it seems to be!

From what I've been through in the last couple of months, I must say I strongly agree with you.

mind sharing your experience?

Follow the paper trail.

If the land was pawned at the local pawn shop, โรงรับจำนำ, rong rap jam nam, there will be paper to show this.

Find out exactly what type of land deeds are held, do a google search for Thai property deeds or Thai property titles.

The land may even have restrictions attached.

Any reluctance to show supporting evidence should be viewed with suspicion on your part, you wont be the first guy to pay for property the family already own.

[Zstarx]

Why not have a usufruct agreement with you mother in law, this is probably more enforceable than with you wife, funny as it may seem

[rufanuf]

IMO you need to find out much more about this.

They borrowed 100K and have made no repayments for 3 and a half years, but you say the accrued interest, penalties etc only come to 37K Baht?

Has the lender been trying to take possession of the land? Who did they borrow the money from? at what interest rate?

Before committing yourself you need to see all of the documentation and have it officially translated!!

Remember NOTHING in Thailand is ever quite what it seems to be!

From what I've been through in the last couple of months, I must say I strongly agree with you.

mind sharing your experience?

Follow the paper trail.

If the land was pawned at the local pawn shop, โรงรับจำนำ, rong rap jam nam, there will be paper to show this.

Find out exactly what type of land deeds are held, do a google search for Thai property deeds or Thai property titles.

The land may even have restrictions attached.

Any reluctance to show supporting evidence should be viewed with suspicion on your part, you wont be the first guy to pay for property the family already own.

I am told the title is chanote, but I already understand the different nuances of each of them. Thanks for keeping me on my toes with regard the concept of settling a mortgage that doesnt exist! I'll bear that one in mind...seems I might be better off using a lawyer simply to establish the truth. Obviously I want to help my girlfriend and her family if there is a genuine need, but sound like I also need to view this as opportunity to see if I have an honest girl in my life by insisting on seeing everything and using a lawyer to do the deed....seems like that might shake out any skeletons.

[rufanuf]

RGS2001uk

If land had had any legitimate debt attached to it am I correct in saying the proof of debt is (and settlements) is written on the back of the original title?

So in other words, any third party liabilities attached to the land will be on the original title which is held at the local land office? (or will the bank be holding it if they have lent against the land?)

[hhgz]

Once you pay for the land, what will prevent your GF either giving the land back to her folks, or borrow money against the land?

[donx]

Why not have a usufruct agreement with you mother in law, this is probably more enforceable than with you wife, funny as it may seem

I agree that this is the best solution. Get the usufruct first, then ask them to transfer the land as a gift from the mother to the daughter. They would likely do this in the future anyway, but there may be siblings that feel they have a right to the land and it could get ugly after the mother passes away unless the title is transferred to the daughter beforehand. The fees for the transfer should be minimal. The usufruct shouldn't cost much but the problem is that some land offices refuse to register them. As others have suggested, get a lawyer to help. Others on here have recommended Isaan Lawyers. They are (or were) sponsors on the website. And since the land is in Isaan, they should be a good fit.

My experience was different from yours, but my fiancee's parents had land that was about to be auctioned off. I provided a sin sod on the wedding day and most of the money was used to pay off the debt. That was over 10 years ago. I didn't care about the land and trusted my wife enough to let them deal with the details. I believe the land is still in my in-law's name, but they have promised to will it to my wife when they pass away. Over the years we have helped my wife's siblings in so many ways that I'm sure they will have no objections to my wife taking ownership of the land. Nevertheless, I still don't care about the land. We have it so that her family has a steady income. It keeps them from begging for money from us which used to happen all the time until the land became productive again.

[Loz]

...I also need to view this as opportunity to see if I have an honest girl in my life by insisting on seeing everything and using a lawyer to do the deed....seems like that might shake out any skeletons.

...And for her to find out if you trust her, and throw a hissy fit when she finds out you don't!

[Loz]

Prior to this idea to lend them moneym did you have conversations about sinsod?

[powderpuff]

RGS2001uk

If land had had any legitimate debt attached to it am I correct in saying the proof of debt is (and settlements) is written on the back of the original title?

So in other words, any third party liabilities attached to the land will be on the original title which is held at the local land office? (or will the bank be holding it if they have lent against the land?)

Yep that's my understanding too. Mortages & liens are on record at the Land office.

OP. A trip to the land office might be very enlightening. You can confirm the size, title or deed type & current market value. The fee to transfer the name (3%) is set by them. They don't care what value the buyer & seller declare.

[rgs2001uk]

RGS2001uk

If land had had any legitimate debt attached to it am I correct in saying the proof of debt is (and settlements) is written on the back of the original title?

So in other words, any third party liabilities attached to the land will be on the original title which is held at the local land office? (or will the bank be holding it if they have lent against the land?)

Yep that's my understanding too. Mortages & liens are on record at the Land office.

OP. A trip to the land office might be very enlightening. You can confirm the size, title or deed type & current market value. The fee to transfer the name (3%) is set by them. They don't care what value the buyer & seller declare.

rufanuf,

seems powderpuff beat me to replying and confirming what we suspected is the normal procedure.

As I mentioned before, follow the paper trail.

Somwhere there will be paper evidence of a loan, your job is to ensure the paperwork you are shown actually belongs to your girlfriends family, whats to stop them showing you the loan paperwork for the next door neighbours loan?

I would want to see, originals of all paperwork, original loan paperwork, original chanote, id card of girlfriend, girlfriends mother and tabian baan and also the bank statement you mentioned before. This way you can check all the names match.

Its very easy to photocopy a chanote, then put some writing on the photocopied chanote along with an official looking stamp, then photocopy the photocopy and present it to you as something that has been officialy prepared at the land office. A trip to the land office is a first start.

However the land office may not even have been informed,land here can change hands without the land office being informed, tax avoidance and no money to pay transfer fees and just 2 reasons that spring to mind, this is not unusual up country.

Read the following links in detail, they give an insight of what you are up against.

http://www.pattayadailynews.com/en/2010/03...ls-in-thailand/

point 1 in the link above is pertinent in your case.

http://www.readbangkokpost.com/business/fi..._operate_in.php

For the large amounts, I need the original title deed, which I keep. I won't go with the client to the local land department, at least not yet. I won't accept anything else as collateral.

Have highlighted in red another important point.

Another poster brings up some interesting points, and something only you can answer.

The girl may in fact be testing you, there may in fact be no loan, she wants to know if she can trust you to help either her or her family should the situation ever arise.

I dont know your relationship with the girl, if this was a girl I had know for a few years and was serious about, I would consider the possibility of just paying off a loan if it exists, this would only apply to a girl who was working and I wasnt giving money to each month.

What does the girl contribute to your relationship?

Bear in mind you are potentially dealing with a financially irresponsible family, who you could well be seen as the answer to their financial woes, whats to stop them doing it again, and where do you draw the line, eg how many times do you put your hand in your pocket?

Is the girl working, what stops her from getting a loan to pay off the family debt?

I dont know the answers, whats more important to you, the girl or 100k+ baht?

[sarahsbloke]

Has anyone here found themselves in a similar situation...

Mine had a 100kbht loan on 5 rai of land (land in mothers name).

As a wedding gift I paid the loan, but again on condition the land put in the wifes name.

I didn't pay until 2 months after the wedding (value for money), and it was the only 'wedding' expense.

The wife did disappear with the money and come back with a Chanote that appears to show a 5 rai field (I didn't want to go but was invited).

Not in her name as the transfer costs 2-3kbht and it was done near sonkran when the land office was closed.

I don't think you can tell if the loan ever existed or not, the villagers tend to borrow from others in the village, and just had over the deeds for 'safe-keeping' I'm not sure half of these loans are ever legally recorded.

As far as I'm concerned 2 months of hot sex with a much younger girl than me was definitely worth 100kbht, if she walks away next week, never mind, that's the way it is out here. If she wants to let her family screw her over on a land deal, who am I to interfere in family business.

I've totally given up trying to tell if a Thai lady (or any lady for that matter) is lying to me to extract money, I'm old, useless and gullible.

But I do insist on value for money for anything in my life now. Only you can decide if she is worth the expense.

What does the girl contribute to your relationship?

Next deal,

My wife wants a car, so I say when she becomes pregnent and clearly showing, I will buy a car for her to drive (It won't be in her name and the baby will be DNA tested, and she knows this), deal agreed. As I said always look for value for money.

Edited April 28, 2010 by sarahsbloke

[Daffy D]

There are many cases of rural land being mortgaged at very low interest for many years without payments being made or the bank chasing for the money.

There is a special bank (Can't recall the name at the moment) that does this (or did, maybe they don't anymore) as the debts I know of are may years old. This bank only deals with agricultural land to help the poorer farming communities. Ordinary people wanting normal mortgages have to deal with a regular bank and pay normal interest rates.

The easiest thing is for the OP is to go along with the family to the bank that holds the debt and talk to the manager. Then take it from there.

[jackdawson]

2 months of hot sex with a much younger girl than me was definitely worth 100kbht

fyi . u overpaid .

[lonewolf99]

Only one bit of advise here.......IMHO

Forget all that check this check that look at paperwork written in Thai ask this ask that etc etc just do this...............

Get out of the relationship while you still can and not lose any money to any one.

The whole thing stinks of a con.

Pity my reply is tagged at the bottom and you might not see it.

If it was the first reply you got and you followed the advise. You would be a happier man. If you do not follow my advise. Som Nom Nah my friend.....but best of luck.

p.s. have you seen the outstanding vet bills for the sick buffalo yet.......???

Edited April 29, 2010 by lonewolf99

[rufanuf]

Hi All,

Some excellent and useful comments on here thanks everyone. I have been with my girlfriend for 3.5years, (I live with her in Hua Hin) she is from a poor background and her parents education is minimal (below hers). In some ways I don't care about the land, and the 150K it will take me to sort this out is not going to hurt me so much if this is all part of an elaborate scam. Nonetheless I dont believe in giving something for nothing as I think it only reinforces the dependancy culture that I am trying to educate my girfriend out of (She starts Uni soon at my expense for the same reasons). She never actually asked me for the funds, she only was fretting about the situation and I suggested I might help with certain conditions attached aimed at ensuring the land is never mortgaged again in the future, and possibly if I live happily ever after with my girlfriend we might get an opportunity to do something with the land later on.

My girlfriend regularly has "hissy fits" as one poster put it...when its clear there might be a trust issue, but I just say lets make it clear its "my way or the highway" and she has always come thru it. Another poster comment on "what does my girlfriend bring to our relationship?". The answer to that right now is a great deal...she takes very good care of me and there is genuine affection on both sides, but of in this scenario its the future that counts isnt it?

The last poster (lone wolf)....ouch! Seems your a little bitter? A word of advice, never give more than you can afford to lose of anything, to anyone for any reason.

[rufanuf]

There are many cases of rural land being mortgaged at very low interest for many years without payments being made or the bank chasing for the money.

There is a special bank (Can't recall the name at the moment) that does this (or did, maybe they don't anymore) as the debts I know of are may years old. This bank only deals with agricultural land to help the poorer farming communities. Ordinary people wanting normal mortgages have to deal with a regular bank and pay normal interest rates.

The easiest thing is for the OP is to go along with the family to the bank that holds the debt and talk to the manager. Then take it from there.

Daffy,

I think the bank in question is the agricultural bank I already posted the link, seesm they will let interest accrue over numerous years up to a threshold (LTV) before pursuing payment...a good deal for them, a bad deal for a poor uneducated farmer!

[rufanuf]

Once you pay for the land, what will prevent your GF either giving the land back to her folks, or borrow money against the land?

This was on of the issues I was hoping to get advice on...does the usufruct ensure \i have some rights over the land? Will the family have to advise me if the land chnages hands again if thier is a usufruct in place? or is that wishful thinking in Isaan?

[stgrhe]

Once you pay for the land, what will prevent your GF either giving the land back to her folks, or borrow money against the land?

This was on of the issues I was hoping to get advice on...does the usufruct ensure \i have some rights over the land? Will the family have to advise me if the land chnages hands again if thier is a usufruct in place? or is that wishful thinking in Isaan?

A usufruct will secure your right to the property (not ownership) for as long as you live, especially if you are not married to the land owner. Contact Sebastien, a Canadian lawyer from Quebec, at Isaan Lawyers, a forum sponsor, in Korat. He is very good and not expensive and can help you setting up the arrangement so it is properly done.

http://www.isaanlawyers.com/

[slapout]

At least the money was borrowed from the Ag. bank (cheaper than commercial banks) Depending on value of collateral vs amount borrowed, the title may be held by bank or maybe not. I have personally seen a bank let a 50,000 loan go for 10+ years with no payment made by borrower. Seems to be fairly common to forget that the monies have to be paid back, even to banks. What you would want a 30 year agreement on farm land for, is something you have to work out.

[rufanuf]

Once you pay for the land, what will prevent your GF either giving the land back to her folks, or borrow money against the land?

This was on of the issues I was hoping to get advice on...does the usufruct ensure \i have some rights over the land? Will the family have to advise me if the land chnages hands again if thier is a usufruct in place? or is that wishful thinking in Isaan?

A usufruct will secure your right to the property (not ownership) for as long as you live, especially if you are not married to the land owner. Contact Sebastien, a Canadian lawyer from Quebec, at Isaan Lawyers, a forum sponsor, in Korat. He is very good and not expensive and can help you setting up the arrangement so it is properly done.

http://www.isaanlawyers.com/

Amazing! I already email Isaan Lawyers, but have got a reply on here, before a reply to my Email! Can someone reply please?

Thanks

[rufanuf]

At least the money was borrowed from the Ag. bank (cheaper than commercial banks) Depending on value of collateral vs amount borrowed, the title may be held by bank or maybe not. I have personally seen a bank let a 50,000 loan go for 10+ years with no payment made by borrower. Seems to be fairly common to forget that the monies have to be paid back, even to banks. What you would want a 30 year agreement on farm land for, is something you have to work out.

Thanks for your insight slapout. When you say farmland what do you mean exactly? My understanding of Thai land laws is that land is land? There are no restrictions if I want to for example build a house on it? Or dig a pond on it? Primarily I want the usufruct for the simple fact I dont want my girlfriend thinking she is getting money for nothing (encouraging that culture in realtively poorly educated people only makes them more dependant).