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Thai Forces Fire Warning Shots In Standoff With Red Shirts


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TR INN: Red guards captured a man "in Army uniform", interrogated him bhind Red stage, & found out he was one of them, albeit a drunken one.

Oops! :):D

FF

So they are dressing like soldiers now? They might need to rethink the no colors thingy. :D

Edited by humfurry
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Despite what has been reported in the press, evidently there is still some question as to who shot the soldier yesterday up near Don Muang. An autopsy is being performed by representatives from 5 medical schools.

Probably the results will be inconclusive, or maybe they won't be. I guess we'll find out.

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EU ambassador calls for peaceful resolution

The European Union's office in Bangkok Thursday called for upholding the law and seeking a peaceful resolution through negotiations to end the political predicament in a democratic manner.

EU ambassador David Lipman issued his statement after a meeting with four red-shirt representatives who delivered a plea for the EU to send observers to the rally site at Rajprasong in a bid to prevent a crackdown.

The plea was signed by red-shirt leader Veera Musigapong.

In his statement, the EU ambassador voiced regrets for the loss of life and those injured but stopped short of addressing the request for intervention to avert what Veera described as human rights catastrophe.

Sorry Verra even the EU is for upholding the law. You loose. Maybe you can try petitioning the Embassy of Samolia. I think you will get some support there.

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EU ambassador calls for peaceful resolution

The European Union's office in Bangkok Thursday called for upholding the law and seeking a peaceful resolution through negotiations to end the political predicament in a democratic manner.

EU ambassador David Lipman issued his statement after a meeting with four red-shirt representatives who delivered a plea for the EU to send observers to the rally site at Rajprasong in a bid to prevent a crackdown.

The plea was signed by red-shirt leader Veera Musigapong.

In his statement, the EU ambassador voiced regrets for the loss of life and those injured but stopped short of addressing the request for intervention to avert what Veera described as human rights catastrophe.

Sorry Verra even the EU is for upholding the law. You loose. Maybe you can try petitioning the Embassy of Samolia. I think you will get some support there.

Montenegro might be willing to send observers? :):D:D

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TR INN: Red guards captured a man "in Army uniform", interrogated him bhind Red stage, & found out he was one of them, albeit a drunken one.

Oops! :):D

FF

So they are dressing like soldiers now? They might need to rethink the no colors thingy. :D

And dressing like police!

Pol Sgt-Maj Prinya Maneekhot, the police officer wanted in connection with the seizure of 63 M79 rounds, has been arrested /BkkPost

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"What was the road block good for? Did it brought back peace, the thai people together and solved the crisis?

The red shirts don't want rape your wife, who told you that horror story?

They rally against the current govenment, the influence of the military in politics and demand a new election.

The reds shirts murdered security forces? Are you sure? Got any source for that claim"

Maybe try to read the story behind the confrontation. The reds mission was to retake a raodblock from the army. that was cleary annonced from the stage. It was even annonced that if the army try to stop them, they will brake throw. What right do the red shirts have to put up roadblocks and search private thais

But, sorry, I forget, the red shirts are a peaceful organisation, not armed!

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seems to me that the Reds are simply asking for an election and in any country that claims to be a democracy they would not brand such people as terrorists - the disenfranchised in many other countries have resported in such circumstances to terrorism and mass murder - god forbid that it ever turns that ugly in Thailand - for goodness sake why not have an election ?

How was you sleep?

It is 2010 welcome back

just to bring you up to date the government offered an early election the reds shirts mad demands

please use you computer and read, there is over 500 posts on this subject, it may be a good idea to read some e of them now you ae awake

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EU ambassador calls for peaceful resolution

The European Union's office in Bangkok Thursday called for upholding the law and seeking a peaceful resolution through negotiations to end the political predicament in a democratic manner.

EU ambassador David Lipman issued his statement after a meeting with four red-shirt representatives who delivered a plea for the EU to send observers to the rally site at Rajprasong in a bid to prevent a crackdown.

The plea was signed by red-shirt leader Veera Musigapong.

In his statement, the EU ambassador voiced regrets for the loss of life and those injured but stopped short of addressing the request for intervention to avert what Veera described as human rights catastrophe.

Sorry Verra even the EU is for upholding the law. You loose. Maybe you can try petitioning the Embassy of Samolia. I think you will get some support there.

Now the Red faces are starting to show theire true colours

Red Shirts please Note your leaders are asking Farlang to come into your country to tell you what to do

My Thai wife loose big face as Thais now say want Farlang to help

She has gone to her room with sulks, 3 Thai dvds and I will not see her for the rest of the night

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"What was the road block good for? Did it brought back peace, the thai people together and solved the crisis?

The red shirts don't want rape your wife, who told you that horror story?

They rally against the current govenment, the influence of the military in politics and demand a new election.

The reds shirts murdered security forces? Are you sure? Got any source for that claim"

Maybe try to read the story behind the confrontation. The reds mission was to retake a raodblock from the army. that was cleary annonced from the stage. It was even annonced that if the army try to stop them, they will brake throw. What right do the red shirts have to put up roadblocks and search private thais

But, sorry, I forget, the red shirts are a peaceful organisation, not armed!

Are the protesters innocent ??????

In a protest the protesters are deemed to be innocent if they march or congregate in an area that is free by law for them to congregate

If they are moving and come across a security force which has the authority to ask them to stop, and they do so they are considered innocent protesters

If they make any hostile movement towards the security forces, while under and order to stop, they are no longer innocent protesters

The security forces would then command them to stop or they may be forced to shoot

If the protesters do not obey this order they, are no longer innocent, but provoking hostilities

The security forces are then within their rights to again command them to halt and shoot a warning shot into the air

If the protesters continue to advance on security forces they are then considered to be a hostile force. and definatley no longer innocent protesters

If at this time after multiple warnings that the security force may open fire, protesters are putting themselves into danger of their own making and may even be considered suicidal

It would be advisable first for security forces to shoot at the protesters feet, taking away their ability to advance.

The Thai security forces use a similar method, with there rules being the distance that protesters are from the security forces, and if they do not show any signs of halting their progress

There is no way under the rules of engagement that the red shirts can be called innocent protesters

At this point in time they have full knowledge of what can happen and confirm this with their statements that they are willing to fight to the death

At common law the responsibility of any injuries or deaths must be born by the leaders of the protest if at a time they saw danger in continuing the protest, there could be injuries or deaths and they failed to stop the protest

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LOL, should have posted my analysis this AM. Just in:

Policeman admits involvement in arms trafficking, not red-shirt movement.

A policeman who carried a sizeable amount of war weapons Thursday admitted he had been selling M79 grenades but denied any involvement in the red-shirt movement.

Analysis: Local policeman puts 2 and 2 together. Reds are fighting the military nearby and, that old stock of grenades that we confiscated, waiting for proper time to return to authorities, of course. Hmm, they are a danger here in the station and nobody will miss them, anyway it's near the end of the month. Might as well sell them to the reds.

What do we learn? The local police believe the reds would like to buy grenades. Course, this is Thailand

Edited by rabo
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I don't see much logic in your argument, blaming the reds that the bullet hit one soldier.

Actually if you would listen to the reds you would know that if you shoot at human beings it kills them. That is not just a red propaganda lie but the truth.

It is also one of their main complains and demands: Stop the killing.

If the government gives the order to shoot at people they are indeed responsible if someone dies and not the victim. Killing people is a crime, it is called murder.

No, never blame the peaceful reds for anything! They just walked in peace to take back a roadblock. Of course it wass wrong of the army to take that roadblock away. How can they do so to this peaceful movement. Yes, you are so right, nothing that happend has anything to do with the red shirts. I get so sick and tired about this nonsens defend of EVERYTHING the reds do.

You would get more respect from me if you defend them for what they do and defend their aim to do so.

"Rules of engagement are applied in any operation describe the situation in which the security forces can use lethal force either to defend their lives, or the lives of colleagues, or the lives of civilians."

Security forces can if they see a threat coming they do not have to wait to be attacked [and] to take casualties. They can take action to defend themselves -- including, if necessary, preemptively."

NATO's rules of engagement would be interpreted even more broadly -- for example, allowing security forces at a checkpoint to shoot a car that is speeding toward them.

"The NATO forces are going to be allowed to fire when they feel they are going to come under attack. And generally speaking, this means that the attackers need to be identified with some form of weapon, or be known to use some sort of weapn -- either rifles, rocket-propelled grenade launchers, Molotov cocktails,"

This is where it comes into a question of interpretation. Certainly, a vehicle being driven at speed at soldiers at a checkpoint is often felt to be a life-threatening situation in which soldiers could use lethal force to stop that vehicle."

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seems to me that the Reds are simply asking for an election and in any country that claims to be a democracy they would not brand such people as terrorists - the disenfranchised in many other countries have resported in such circumstances to terrorism and mass murder - god forbid that it ever turns that ugly in Thailand - for goodness sake why not have an election ?

They sure would, if they were demanding a snap election 1.5 years early

and using violent street riots and guerrilla tactics to try and make it happen.

And just because some days were more peaceful then others

doesn't make the violent days UN-violent.

With 220 MP's on their side in Parliament these people are anything but disenfranchised.

Edited by animatic
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Quote: Leaders of the Reds, who have for weeks occupied a main commercial area in the heart of Bangkok, expressed surprise at authorities' measures Wednesday, when troops fired at protesters on a highway in Bangkok's northern suburbs.

"We didn't think that our people would face such heavy security," a senior Red, Weng Tojirakarn, told reporters.

Well we had to turn our tails and run so we need an excuse, we do not want to admit the tide is turning

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The Red shirts are saying to the EU

"As a respected international organisation, we appeal to you to assign representatives to monitor the government's actions," the letter said. "Faced with the threat of tanks and impending bloodshed, we are appealing to your help in averting a human rights catastrophe." Although the protests were initially peaceful, they turned more confrontational in April, prompting the government to put the capital under emergency decree that effectively outlaws large gatherings and grants authorities some immunity in cracking down on the protests.

We are illegally protesting, we are trying to take over the streets

we are armed with Sharp spears, pistols and any other weapons we can get hold of, we buy grenades on the black market of from police men who hve a few to sell we could go home and stop all this, but we feel better to call you, we are innocent thugs, please help us

PS If you can send us 1000 machine guns it would be appreciated

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The Sangha Supreme Council has announced its decision to allow security personnel to arrest monks who participate in political rallies on site as it goes against the Buddhist Monk Act.

The arrested monks will be forced to leave the monkhood before formal charges are brought upon them.

The red shirts will find this most distressing, we need more women and children to replace the monks

We will fight till the death, Ladies and children first

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UDD to petition court over 28 April violence

The anti-government United Front of Democracy against Dictatorship (UDD) will lodge a complaint with the Civil Court, alleging that the government’s operation during the 28 April clashes was against the international standard.

UDD Secretary-General Nattawut Saikua announced that the group was preparing to file a complaint with the Civil Court for deliberation on the legitimacy of the government's crowd control operation against UDD protesters during the clashes at the National Memorial in Don Muang on 28 April.

The UDD core leader accused the security officers of breaching the seven-step international code of conduct by using live rounds of bullets against the protesters during the scuffle.

The confrontation between troops and UDD supporters erupted near the National Memorial at the intersection of Phahonyothin Road and Vibhavadi-Rangsit Road on Wednesday afternoon when a UDD convoy, led by Mr Kwanchai Praipana, was mobilizing from the capital's Ratchaprasong business district to Talad Thai market in Pathum Thani province. One death and 19 injuries were reported from the incident.

Nato Rules of Engagement

Rules of engagement are applied in any operation describe the situation in which the security forces can use lethal force either to defend their lives, or the lives of colleagues, or the lives of civilians."

Security forces can if they see a threat coming they do not have to wait to be attacked [and] to take casualties. They can take action to defend themselves -- including, if necessary, preemptively."

NATO's rules of engagement would be interpreted even more broadly -- for example, allowing security forces at a checkpoint to shoot a car that is speeding toward them.

"The NATO forces are going to be allowed to fire when they feel they are going to come under attack. And generally speaking, this means that the attackers need to be identified with some form of weapon, or be known to use some sort of weapn -- either rifles, rocket-propelled grenade launchers, Molotov cocktails,"

This is where it comes into a question of interpretation. Certainly, a vehicle being driven at speed at soldiers at a checkpoint is often felt to be a life-threatening situation in which soldiers could use lethal force to stop that vehicle."

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I don't see much logic in your argument, blaming the reds that the bullet hit one soldier.

Actually if you would listen to the reds you would know that if you shoot at human beings it kills them. That is not just a red propaganda lie but the truth.

It is also one of their main complains and demands: Stop the killing.

If the government gives the order to shoot at people they are indeed responsible if someone dies and not the victim. Killing people is a crime, it is called murder.

Really? War is murder? If a madman rapes my wife and attempts to kill me and I shoot him dead it is murder? When a policeman shoots a criminal in the commission of a violent act it is murder? Sorry, but I think you are incorrect.

Soldiers are there to protect the public. Red shirts are menacing the public. It is the duty of the security forces to use whatever force is necessary to protect the public. Moreover, the armed red shirts have already killed security forces (murdered if you prefer) and possibly some unarmed civilians. The red shirts deliberately sent the caravan out. They then proceeded to attack the government road block. Therefore the red shirt leaders are entirely to blame for any accidental deaths arising from their illegal actions.

You are correct and mazeltov is using a fallacious argument.

Since murder is the UNLAWFUL killing of a human being then when the police and military are enforcing the law they cannot be guilty of "murder".

However, it IS possible for the Reds to be considered guilty of murder even when someone else has pulled the trigger. I am unsure if this applies in Thailand.

Felony murder is when, during the commission of a different crime, someone is killed. The person that is breaking the law is the person charged with Felony Murder. (This is a drastic simplification of a very difficult legal concept.)

Where is my argument fallacious? I am not using some madman and rapist as straw man.

But okay, so its LAWFUL KILLING of a human beings when the MILITARY shoot at CIVILIANS, because they are enforcing the law in accordance with international standard as Abhisit chose to say. Has the now really a carte blanche to do so, practise lawful killings?

I would say some might argue otherwise, using deadly force should be the last resort justified only when there is an immediate danger to the life of other people and all lesser means failed to apply. For example shooting/killing/stopping an armed man who goes on rampage in a shopping centre shooting at other.

But using deadly force should not be just another tactic to disperse a crowd of protesters. I doubt that can be called lawful.

And when military accidently kills one of their own soldiers are still the civilians the guilty ones, guilty of murder, because of some silly reasoning and the bullet was of course intended to take out one of them or what???

That sounds not right nor correct to me.

------

Here another video clip (sorry if it has been posted before.)

Look how peace and order is restored in accordance with the law and international standard so that normalcy comes back as soon as possible.

skynews — April 28, 2010

Alex Crawford reports direct from the scene.

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military now showing grenades and bags they were carried in. Not sure if this actually happened on an elevated expressway because they said something about suspect running down a Soi to get away. They also confirm the amount being 6o+

If we had a free press I maybe would consider the possibility that this story could be true but because the media is run by the Government and army I don't believe anything they say. If you want to believe them go ahead. I believe that if it looks like bulls++t

sounds like BULLS++t and smells like bulls++t it probably is Bulls++t.

Do you feel the same way when they report on something that fits your views and opinions?

Most people with any inteligence would be extreemly sceptical of anything that comes for a state controlled media myself included. In all honesty I don't believe anything they say.

Thai Television News has just reported that yesterdays soldier that was killed was killed by the red shirts. This is the complete opposite of what the other English language newspaper reported today together with CNN and the BBC. Do you see why I don't believe them now?

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LOL, should have posted my analysis this AM. Just in:

Policeman admits involvement in arms trafficking, not red-shirt movement.

A policeman who carried a sizeable amount of war weapons Thursday admitted he had been selling M79 grenades but denied any involvement in the red-shirt movement.

Analysis: Local policeman puts 2 and 2 together. Reds are fighting the military nearby and, that old stock of grenades that we confiscated, waiting for proper time to return to authorities, of course. Hmm, they are a danger here in the station and nobody will miss them, anyway it's near the end of the month. Might as well sell them to the reds.

What do we learn? The local police believe the reds would like to buy grenades. Course, this is Thailand

forensically test the grenades to see if they are from the same batch that killed Colonel Romklao Thuwatham on April 10 2010

if they are, then give the policeman amnesty if he will testify that the red shirt leaders were the paying 'clients' and then charge them all with murder from Chavilit downwards

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its down to the poor against the rich,well thats what it seems to me now.

i am not a thai national but if its democracy they are after then call the elections

thaksin was sure as not honest but he knew how to run a country and i think also that some

people who comment here forget about the so called honest and democratic west,,ie ,bush against gore and

the uk ministers filling their pockets....i hope it dosent end up in a civil war and the only way to scale this down is call an election

and abide by the result,,,and this did all start over a coup by the army dont forget....

Your naivety (not sure of spelling but I know what it means) is stunning!

and of coarse YOU have an insight into this and how to make it all better ... the opposite of me being naive is being a know all who

knows nothing... i lived in issan in a farming community and i understand why the rural thais love thaksin...who else has stood up for them...

maybe it dosent seem right but its all they have got mr know it all...

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Okay, I KNOW this is a thread about the thai political chasm which divides this country right now...

BUT!! I suggest EVERYONE take a giant step back from their political posting penchants and a BIG step back from their p/c monitors too!!

Let's listen to a song called คนไทยหัวใจเดียวกัน, (transliteration; Kon Thai Hua Jai Dieow Gan) and the translation "All Thai People's Hearts Are The Same" written by Sek Loso (Seksan Sukpimai), and played by 4 very well known thai bands:

Micro; w/their lead singer Ampon (Ampol Lampoon)

Loso; w/their lead singer/guitarist; Sek (Seksan Sukpimai)

Big Ass; w/their lead singer; Dax (Ekarat Wongcharat),

Body Slam; w/their lead singer; Dtoon (Athiwara Khongmalai).

At first blush a semi intelligent person might actually be lead to believe that they are singing about the political division in thai society; that all thais have the same hearts and want what is good for the country. :D

However, upon further examination, especially when you see the MASS advertising campaign that their sponsor Chang Beer did on nearly ALL the downtown busses; it comes down to the meaning; ALL thais are united in that they like to drink Chang beer :D

Sad really, as it's a great song w/great lyrics, (if you can't understand thai ask your wife or significant other to translate it :D ). It is especially poignant given the current situation. It could actually be a uniting song, instead Chang turned it into a bullshit beer promotional campaign.

What is actually interesting is just before the lead break, they sing (ช้างเอาเลย) "Chang Aow Leui!!" which when fighting in ancient times meant "bring on the elephants", but now evidently means "bring on the Chang Beer!!".. .. :D

Thumbs DOWN for Chang Beer for capitalizing on this bad situation for ALL thais. :)

(and thumbz down for me not spell checking this first!!)

Edited by tod-daniels
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its down to the poor against the rich,well thats what it seems to me now.

i am not a thai national but if its democracy they are after then call the elections

thaksin was sure as not honest but he knew how to run a country and i think also that some

people who comment here forget about the so called honest and democratic west,,ie ,bush against gore and

the uk ministers filling their pockets....i hope it dosent end up in a civil war and the only way to scale this down is call an election

and abide by the result,,,and this did all start over a coup by the army dont forget....

Actually it's the rich against the rich, using the poor as pawns.

It's not so much democracy but a ticket on the gravy train.

An election will only be helpful if they abide by the electoral rules.

The coup wasn't the start, it was a reaction to injustice and massive corruption.

Whatever the result protests and terrorism will be used to undermine the next government too.

youre probably right..most likely it will continue no matter whos elected...

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"What was the road block good for? Did it brought back peace, the thai people together and solved the crisis?

The red shirts don't want rape your wife, who told you that horror story?

They rally against the current govenment, the influence of the military in politics and demand a new election.

The reds shirts murdered security forces? Are you sure? Got any source for that claim"

Maybe try to read the story behind the confrontation. The reds mission was to retake a raodblock from the army. that was cleary annonced from the stage. It was even annonced that if the army try to stop them, they will brake throw. What right do the red shirts have to put up roadblocks and search private thais

But, sorry, I forget, the red shirts are a peaceful organisation, not armed!

Are the protesters innocent ??????

In a protest the protesters are deemed to be innocent if they march or congregate in an area that is free by law for them to congregate

If they are moving and come across a security force which has the authority to ask them to stop, and they do so they are considered innocent protesters

If they make any hostile movement towards the security forces, while under and order to stop, they are no longer innocent protesters

The security forces would then command them to stop or they may be forced to shoot

If the protesters do not obey this order they, are no longer innocent, but provoking hostilities

The security forces are then within their rights to again command them to halt and shoot a warning shot into the air

If the protesters continue to advance on security forces they are then considered to be a hostile force. and definatley no longer innocent protesters

If at this time after multiple warnings that the security force may open fire, protesters are putting themselves into danger of their own making and may even be considered suicidal

It would be advisable first for security forces to shoot at the protesters feet, taking away their ability to advance.

The Thai security forces use a similar method, with there rules being the distance that protesters are from the security forces, and if they do not show any signs of halting their progress

There is no way under the rules of engagement that the red shirts can be called innocent protesters

At this point in time they have full knowledge of what can happen and confirm this with their statements that they are willing to fight to the death

At common law the responsibility of any injuries or deaths must be born by the leaders of the protest if at a time they saw danger in continuing the protest, there could be injuries or deaths and they failed to stop the protest

when oppressive regimes reach their end they try to stay even if kill and fight with people.

people in all the world fight bad regimes and they will fight this one.

even shout about anti monarchy not work this time. 10 years before that will work for them but not now

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I have this deep feeling that the UDD has a sense of entitlement for some reason. Wanting to "reclaim" something that never was their's in the first place. These folks are getting more whacked by the day. So much for patient privacy or any sense of privacy at all these past few days if you're an unlucky motorist pulled over and threatened by the UDD police department.

"TR @Neaw_NBC: RT @yoware: A red leader, Payap, asked Chula Hospital to evict soldiers stationing there, or reds will "reclaim" the hospital."

"Tension at Chula Hospital at moment. Hundreds of reds demanding to search for "hiden" soldiers there."

"RT @tistoo: heated negotiations just mins ago at Chula Hospital"

"Payap and some red representatives have been allowed to "inspect" hospital. The reds are really pushing it this time."

Source: Tulsathit

Edited by frodo
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[Thai Television News has just reported that yesterdays soldier that was killed was killed by the red shirts. This is the complete opposite of what the other English language newspaper reported today together with CNN and the BBC. Do you see why I don't believe them now?

Not really.

Did BBC or CNN have any proof?

Did you see the Al Jazeera tape showing armed protesters yesterday? Their foreign journo reporting gun shots fired by the protesters?

Friendly fire has never been announced or proven one way or the other, given that the protesters were armed and shooting it is entirely plausible that they were responsible for his death.

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its down to the poor against the rich,well thats what it seems to me now.

i am not a thai national but if its democracy they are after then call the elections

thaksin was sure as not honest but he knew how to run a country and i think also that some

people who comment here forget about the so called honest and democratic west,,ie ,bush against gore and

the uk ministers filling their pockets....i hope it dosent end up in a civil war and the only way to scale this down is call an election

and abide by the result,,,and this did all start over a coup by the army dont forget....

Your naivety (not sure of spelling but I know what it means) is stunning!

and of coarse YOU have an insight into this and how to make it all better ... the opposite of me being naive is being a know all who

knows nothing... i lived in issan in a farming community and i understand why the rural thais love thaksin...who else has stood up for them...

maybe it dosent seem right but its all they have got mr know it all...

no one else stood up for them?

aside from Abhisit making the outdated Thaksin 30 baht health scheme entirely free of charge , sending 1 million baht to every village for the community, (1100 villages received it), billions sent out in stimulus payments, free education, free books, free uniforms, free dental care, free further education, low interest student loans, free computer labs for schools, access to low interest loans to get families out of the grip of loan sharks and only yesterday............

The Bank for Agriculture and Agricultural Cooperatives plans to provide loans totalling Bt420 billion to the rural sector this year, BAAC president, Luck Wajananawat said.

The Bt420 billion in loans will be allocated as follows - Bt44.5 billion for livestocks and fisheries, Bt140 billion to support growing of economic crops, Bt45.5 billion for producing alternative energy sources, Bt68 billion for jobs creation in rural areas, Bt30 billion for creating economic communities, Bt52 billion to support the agricultural institute and Bt40 billion to support the government's agricultural policy, according to the BAAC president said.

The Nation

so just remind me what did Thaksin do?

Edited by timekeeper
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