Thailand: A Class Struggle?

[Niman]

Yes, I know what is in the budget, 3.000 new busses to Bangkok.

[hextac]

The author is a Thai member of the parliament and deputy leader of the incumbent Democrat Party.

I loved this part of the article the most.

Did it also say he is an MP from Khorat?

Khorat? But the reds tell us that everyone in Isaan is Red! How could a dem possibly be elected in Khorat?

Maybe he was one of those who changed allegiance after the vote?

[eggomaniac]

Are the reds and yellows on the opposite sides of a class struggle? I think not.

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Here is something I dreamed up which I believe all but the most short sighted, brainwashed and unintelligent red or yellow supports will be able to comprehend. >>>

Pretend you are in a room next to where I am polling 100 reds and 100 yellows; street level demonstrators.

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I am asking questions about whether they would like a political system that had an automatic 'built in' watch dog system that saw, heard and sniffed out any attempts at corruption, conflict of interest and bribery.

I am also asking if they would want fair elections, with no vote buying and all candidates having the same advertising budget, with government sponsored Town Hall meetings. Every candidate would have equal exposure.

There would, also, be questioning about a design for stable government, something Thailand has never seen. Any Members they elected would be guaranteed to serve 4 years, barring impeachment on corruption or incompetence.

They would also be interviewed about a system of checks and balances by Senators, to avoid Tyranny of the Majority and Regional Bullying.

There would also be a remarkable, history making, element of design that encouraged achievement for the good of the people, leading to consistencey of Policies over many years.

>>> Here is the kicker! You cannot see what shirts they are wearing. By the answers to the same set of questions by the 200 red and yellow card carrying members, nobody in the World would be able to guess when I had a red or a yellow in the room.

------------

Same thing for the leaders of BOTH sides.

Get them in a room, with polygraphs on and ask one question.

Do you want your side to win so you can get in the parliamentary seat of corruptions so you and your cronies can get richer?

-------

Whether it's oil fields, poppy fields, or seat of corruption in Thailand, the Nabobs can always convince poor, street level dupes it's their patriotic duty to protect their leaders bank accounts.

The great hope for Thailand is that 95% of the people are hard working, well intentioned lovers' of life. it's a swarm of millionaires, a pocketful of billionaires and a hand full of trillionaires fighting among themselves for greater riches that is root cause of the problemos.

They need to put together a "Made In Thailand" system, The Joseph Solution, get rid of the the broken one that was foisted upon them by *foreign powers. [* a whole other Topic, but pages and pages on the internet]

[IMA_FARANG]

-------------

Quote:

Those declaring a “class war” focus their demands on a dissolution of parliament and returning power to the people, with seemingly little concern about what kinds of policies will follow. More likely, this discourse of class struggle is a clever, but rather abstract message to propel the real strategy, which is the struggle for Thaksin’s return to power.

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Yes, it is...but the strategy is not "a clever, but rather abstarct message"; it's perfectly clear to anyone who isn't a fool.

The Red Sirts want a dissalution of the Parliment immediately...or within the first next 30 days...because the Red Shirts know perfectly well that there is no other party or political group ready for elections....and therefore they will by default have the political edge in any snap election. The Red Shirts have:

1. no economic policy

2. no coherent policy for Thailand's future

3. No ideology except disruption of those that oppose them

All they really want is their discredited former leader (Thaksin) back in power. When they have that, and he is back in power, then all their professed love for "democracy" and "class struggle" will go straight down the toilet. Once their multi-billionaire leader can get his hands back in the till again, all those Issan farmers and their class struggle will be forgotten. The only purpose of those Issan farmers is to get that one Thai (of Chinese descent) multi-billionnaire back into power again; and then the "class struggle" rhetoric is only to provide a source of further funds for the boss to tap for his own use...even if he occasionally has to throw a little bit of the loot back to his supporters in cash incentives now and then to buy their continued loyalty.

Their stategy is simple:

1. disrupt the current order

2. devide and conquer once that order is disrupted

3. then maintain that conquest with bribes to those who support you.

That's the Red Shirts plan...but only a few at the very top would dare admit it.

Edited May 2, 2010 by IMA_FARANG

[Rinrada]

Trolls -Peasants-Prolls are revolting....

[ChiangMaiFun]

Of course it's a class struggle- it's the elite rich of BKK (mostly) driving their nice new Porches (sometimes into reds) and the poor and disenfranchised who have nothing - address that issue and it all stops - it reminds me a little of the last Tzar believing all his people love him - given tons of opportunities to change but didn't - some of this is something we cannot discuss - and hence the problem.

[Koh_Falang]

How can you live from 500 Baht per month? That doesn't even pay for a crappy apartment. Is this a joke?

i doubt its given out for people to use as a sole income... It could be best used to subsidise medication and other esentials etc...

How were they getting by before they got 500baht a month if thats your assumption?

[Humungus]

How can you live from 500 Baht per month? That doesn't even pay for a crappy apartment. Is this a joke?

i doubt its given out for people to use as a sole income... It could be best used to subsidise medication and other esentials etc...

How were they getting by before they got 500baht a month if thats your assumption?

In Thai culture the responsibility for caring for the elderly rests primarily on their children and other family members. It is not the sole responsibility of the state as in some western nations.

Despite the rhetoric spewed from the protest stage this is not a class struggle movement. They don't have real policies or an agenda that would help the farmers and rural poor. As usual it is about lining the pockets of politicians. The reason so much money has been spent on the protests is that they expect to get even more back if they win, it's an investment, not a social movement.

I used to teach a Thai class, and it was a struggle.

Edited May 3, 2010 by Humungus

[Jerrytheyoung]

we have to focus on the Budget because obviously nobody want it on the table....probably too much lies and manglings behind...

This is a major Anti Corruption tool: transparency of the Budget.

Malicious speculation without any facts.

The full transparent and open discussion of the Budget is the Best Anti Corruption tool: important in a democracy: if you have nothing to fear, it should not be an issue to discuss openly the Budget. Put it on the table: I do not believe your rhetorics until it is followed by actions. Decisions of Politicians are converted in actions in the Budget....

you do not want to show the Budget...well, in this case, you want to hide something. As simple as this... No budget, No credibility of your rhetorics

Edited May 3, 2010 by Jerrytheyoung

[hansnl]

The Abhisit government has also tried to lower costs and the level of debt among the poor by providing 15 years of free education for all...

15 years free education. Surely that means free university for everyone? Or is it assuming that children start going to school aged 3 (+15 years) finishing high school at 18?

...and a 500 baht [$17] monthly allowance for elderly people.

How can you live from 500 Baht per month? That doesn't even pay for a crappy apartment. Is this a joke?

True.

However, there has never been a government that even thought about this.

Maybe this meagre 500 baht is a start on the long way to a state pension.

[SomTumTiger]

That being said the average Thai person can make 500 baht stretch a lot farther than the average farang, who probably dropped the note while fumbling for his "I've lived in Thailand for 15 years and now I'm leaving and so should you" autobiography.

[selftaopath]

At first glance, I thought The Irrawaddy was the name for a Burmese tabloid. But upon further reading it appears to be Thai publication. Thoughtful and well written article, but one wonders whether it merits its own thread when there are so many going concurrently here on T.Visa. More succint, in my view, are the two news bits below....

THE NATION: Acting Police chief Pratheep moved police chief in Khon Kaen due to incompetent action regr redshirts

MCOTEnglishnews: Acting National Police Chief Pateep transfers Khon Kaen police commander to inactive post as he cannot handle Red Shirt movement in province

Good to hear the Police Chief is acting like a Police Chief for a change. But why just 'moved' (....to an inactive post? ......to a smaller provincial post far away?). Are they also demoted? Why not simply kick them out of the service with no pension. That seems fair when one considers their gross dereliction of duty; enabling a vindictive mob to assert control of their jurisdiction, with nary a feint of opposition from the people entrusted to maintain law and order.

Lack of Sanctions (LOS)

[tombradly]

Of course it IS a class struggle.

It is comical watching people post nonsense saying it is not.

Perhaps you do not understand that money and class run everything here in Thailand.

A person who is from the upper class can kill someone from a lower class and never go to jail for it.

When was the last time you were made to crawl on the ground in approaching another human? It happens here all the time to the lower classes.

Some of you sound like The queen of France. "Let them eat cake."

I know--she did not really say it but you get the point.

The class warfare occurs all over the planet in every nation and to think Thailand is somehow different naive.

Oh yeah--why is it taking so long to get the people out of Bangkok?

I think it might have a lot to do with those guys wearing black who could shoot down a thousand Thai army in just 10 minutes with their machine guns and automatic weapons. Likely this has made it difficult to get any army group, even with big money, to charge the dug in Reds.

If the revolution turns into all out war, where will you farangs here run too?

Home is nice you know.

[ChiangMaiFun]

How can you live from 500 Baht per month? That doesn't even pay for a crappy apartment. Is this a joke?

i doubt its given out for people to use as a sole income... It could be best used to subsidise medication and other esentials etc...

How were they getting by before they got 500baht a month if thats your assumption?

In Thai culture the responsibility for caring for the elderly rests primarily on their children and other family members. It is not the sole responsibility of the state as in some western nations.

Despite the rhetoric spewed from the protest stage this is not a class struggle movement. They don't have real policies or an agenda that would help the farmers and rural poor. As usual it is about lining the pockets of politicians. The reason so much money has been spent on the protests is that they expect to get even more back if they win, it's an investment, not a social movement.

I used to teach a Thai class, and it was a struggle.

Of course it's a class struggle - it's obvious - any understanding of cultural paradigm will show this is cultural shift and is inevitable – will take decades to see through. The elites will whine and whinge and try to keep it at bay through lying, cheating and use of force – but it can’t be stopped. So it will go two steps forward, one back – Thaksin is just a piece on the board just like all the other pieces.

[whybother]

Of course it's a class struggle- it's the elite rich of BKK (mostly) driving their nice new Porches (sometimes into reds) and the poor and disenfranchised who have nothing - address that issue and it all stops - it reminds me a little of the last Tzar believing all his people love him - given tons of opportunities to change but didn't - some of this is something we cannot discuss - and hence the problem.

Of course you are ignoring the nice European cars driven by the local village rich.

The problem isn't (only) in Bangkok. The main problem is the corruption in the villages.

[whybother]

we have to focus on the Budget because obviously nobody want it on the table....probably too much lies and manglings behind...

This is a major Anti Corruption tool: transparency of the Budget.

Malicious speculation without any facts.

The full transparent and open discussion of the Budget is the Best Anti Corruption tool: important in a democracy: if you have nothing to fear, it should not be an issue to discuss openly the Budget. Put it on the table: I do not believe your rhetorics until it is followed by actions. Decisions of Politicians are converted in actions in the Budget....

you do not want to show the Budget...well, in this case, you want to hide something. As simple as this... No budget, No credibility of your rhetorics

It actually needs to go further than transparency of the budget.

It's fine being clear on which departments, projects or regions the money is going to, but once it is there, there needs to be regular audits of how it is used (or more relevant for Thailand: mis-used).

[way2muchcoffee]

we have to focus on the Budget because obviously nobody want it on the table....probably too much lies and manglings behind...

This is a major Anti Corruption tool: transparency of the Budget.

Malicious speculation without any facts.

The full transparent and open discussion of the Budget is the Best Anti Corruption tool: important in a democracy: if you have nothing to fear, it should not be an issue to discuss openly the Budget. Put it on the table: I do not believe your rhetorics until it is followed by actions. Decisions of Politicians are converted in actions in the Budget....

you do not want to show the Budget...well, in this case, you want to hide something. As simple as this... No budget, No credibility of your rhetorics

What I'm saying Jerry is that you do not have the facts and neither do I. Have you visited all of the Thai government websites to search for budgets? How do you know that it is not published somewhere? Have you contacted government agencies to ask? How many phone calls have you made? How many websites have you visited? Do you read Thai at an advanced level? If the budget is a published document it would certainly not be published in English or French. Do you know the proper Thai word or phrase for 'fiscal budget'? How many inquiries have you made? When all of those measures failed did you visit the government agencies personally?

I have no idea whether it is a published document or not. But you sit and claim that there is no budget, no budget, no budget. I think you have not done due diligence. And I think it is irresponsible then to criticize the government and accuse them of hiding of information and corruption.

Edited May 3, 2010 by way2muchcoffee

[plachon]

Khorat? But the reds tell us that everyone in Isaan is Red! How could a dem possibly be elected in Khorat?

Do they? must have missed that one here is a little map to help visualize the proportions.

The map on the left!

What's happened to Bhumjaithai Party on your map, which controls large parts of Isaan, including its leader's stronghold in Buriram? Guess they were they formed post-2550 and so not reflected, but it would certainly change the colour scheme on the map for large areas.

Kraisak's article is good and he is correct in asserting that this is not fundamentally a class struggle, although there are elements of the Redshirts who would like it to be portrayed as one. It's about Thaksin's exoneration of all crimes and return of seized assets AND a bigger struggle over future controls of the pursestrings of state and institutions that can't be mentioned here, at its heart. Kraisak has been pretty close to the inner workings and actors in the struggle for many years, and know's from his own family's experience that there are wheels within wheels in Thailand,some of which may be talked about, some of which must remain hidden (for the time being).

Edited May 3, 2010 by plachon

[jayboy]

Kraisak's article is good and he is correct in asserting that this is not fundamentally a class struggle, although there are elements of the Redshirts who would like it to be portrayed as one.

To deny this is at least mainly a class struggle is simply absurd.No serious observer thinks otherwise.That doesn't necessarily make it a cause worth supporting and of course there are complicating factors not least the poisonous influence of Thaksin.But Thaksin would never have gained traction unless there weren't huge class resentments at an unelected elite's domination of power and resources.It always amazes me that apparently sensible foreigners believe that Thailand, where exploitation is much worse than most places, should somehow be mysteriously exempt from frictions that have moulded every contemporary society.

[hammered]

The lower classes in the south both rural and urban are big majority anti-red shirt in the extreme

Round where I live in Chonburi the red backers are primarily small business or petty borgeoisie while the urban working class are majority anti-red or neutral

In the lower north where the family is the farmers are either pro-Thaksin with a smaller sub group of this group pro-red and the rest neutral in the extreme while their kids working in Aytuhaya tend to be neutral to anti-red

When talking about class it probably helps to define what you mean by class first of all as the aspirations of rural young and old differ and the urban working class and rural farming class are two totally different groups. It is also complicated by regional divides

I tend to use class in a UK way which identifies the Thai middle class as smal and the urban class as significant compared to a US defuinitioon where the middle class may seem a lot larger.

The other problem with labelling what is happening right now is you have several thing sgoing on at the same time: power struggle, Thaksin struggle a signifact part of the rural poor from certain regions struggling to improve their lot and a few things best not talked about and all of these have become entangled meaning imho a more nuanced view of what is happening needs to be made as it is very complicated. There are also groups who could change sides.

[Jerrytheyoung]

What I'm saying Jerry is that you do not have the facts and neither do I. Have you visited all of the Thai government websites to search for budgets? How do you know that it is not published somewhere? Have you contacted government agencies to ask? How many phone calls have you made? How many websites have you visited? Do you read Thai at an advanced level? If the budget is a published document it would certainly not be published in English or French. Do you know the proper Thai word or phrase for 'fiscal budget'? How many inquiries have you made? When all of those measures failed did you visit the government agencies personally?

I have no idea whether it is a published document or not. But you sit and claim that there is no budget, no budget, no budget. I think you have not done due diligence. And I think it is irresponsible then to criticize the government and accuse them of hiding of information and corruption.

Because like some other posters, involved in governmental projects few years ago, I have gotten an "apercu" about the way the Budget is done. (very opaque)

It has been a great step for Democracy in our Countries, that the Medias have succeeded to open the discussion of the Budget in the public: it has not been always the case. For fighting the Corruption it is a very powerful tool: everybody can check the Budget in what he has knowledge. Governments have to stop to lie about the promises done and not budgeted....

It is a big step for Democracy (In France, I have been witness of a journalist putting his life at stake in a corruption affair. A friend of mine save his life.)

This is independant of Red or yellow... This is a large step forward for Thailand.

[whybother]

There is no way that this can be termed as a class war between the rich and the poor, especially with the presence of Thaksin, the rich red leaders, and the rich village leaders on the "poor" side.

IMO, it is simply a power struggle between Thaksin supporters and everyone else.

The Thaksin supporters have used the poor, in the same way that Thaksin used the poor.

[yesdavy]

1. The copyright on this opinion piece is 2 years old, 2008.
   
2. Why can we not reference the piece in quotes in order to reply?
   

[way2muchcoffee]

Because like some other posters, involved in governmental projects few years ago, I have gotten an "apercu" about the way the Budget is done. (very opaque)

It has been a great step for Democracy in our Countries, that the Medias have succeeded to open the discussion of the Budget in the public: it has not been always the case. For fighting the Corruption it is a very powerful tool: everybody can check the Budget in what he has knowledge. Governments have to stop to lie about the promises done and not budgeted....

It is a big step for Democracy (In France, I have been witness of a journalist putting his life at stake in a corruption affair. A friend of mine save his life.)

This is independant of Red or yellow... This is a large step forward for Thailand.

Please have a look at this website. It is the the Thailand Bureau of the Budget government website.

http://www.bb.go.th/bbhomeeng/page.asp?opt...%2F510110-00001

You can download a 70-page pdf file that is a summary of the budget for 2010. You can download budget details for every year back to 1999.

http://www.bb.go.th/bbhomeeng/page.asp?opt...p;folddsc=04003

This took me 5 minutes using google to find. It's even in English!

Edited May 3, 2010 by way2muchcoffee

[retarius]

Here are the options:

1) Of course it's not a class struggle....nothing could be further from the truth...in fact I read on here on TV that most of the red shirts are actually really quite rich and turn up in Benzes to the rally or at least a 'shiny new pick-up'...no the real reason that they are really camped out there is in order to shop at those expensive shops in Ratchaprasong...they are truly evil people and have held the demonstration to reduce the number of other shoppers and try to drive the prices in the shops down a bit thereby getting a better bargain, and reduce the profits of those nice store owners....

2) Of course it's not a class struggle: No, the fact that 99% of the red shirts are poor, probably ill-educated, have seen their living standards erode over the past 4 years, and have been disenfranchised has absolutely nothing to do with the protest at all...they are just buffalo who don't know their proper place in society, who don't have any respect for rich powerful people and who fell in love with terrorists and decided to pick a fight with unarmed security personnel...

3) Of course it's not a class struggle: These people have put their lives on hold and and at risk to (pick one from the 57 conspiracy theories below invented by the yellow shorts)

a) get a billionaire his money back

get Thaksin an amnesty

c) get Thasin his billions back

d) get Thaksin into power

e) make Thaksin prime minister again

f) make Thaksin coach of the Thai football team

g) give Thaksin...fill in blank)

h) etc etc etc

God I'm bored with this...enough of TV for me for a while...there's not much point trying to have a decent conversation with people blinded by hatred....

Here are some yellow shirt replies to my post...."good riddance then"..." boo-hoo, I don't like your avatar"..etc etc

See, I posted your incredibly insightful and and witty reply for you, and so saved you time to write some other vitriol....see what a good natured fellow I am?

[misterjag]

Those declaring a “class war” focus their demands on a dissolution of parliament and returning power to the people, with seemingly little concern about what kinds of policies will follow.

- Kraisak Choonhavan, Deputy Leader, Democrat Party

In the final analysis it hardly matters what policy bones the paternal Democrat Party is willing to throw to Thailand's majority of rural and urban poor. They say the poor shouldn't be trusted with equal access to political power in Thai society. The Democrats ironically oppose democracy.

Edited May 3, 2010 by misterjag

[jayboy]

The lower classes in the south both rural and urban are big majority anti-red shirt in the extreme

Round where I live in Chonburi the red backers are primarily small business or petty borgeoisie while the urban working class are majority anti-red or neutral

In the lower north where the family is the farmers are either pro-Thaksin with a smaller sub group of this group pro-red and the rest neutral in the extreme while their kids working in Aytuhaya tend to be neutral to anti-red

When talking about class it probably helps to define what you mean by class first of all as the aspirations of rural young and old differ and the urban working class and rural farming class are two totally different groups. It is also complicated by regional divides

I tend to use class in a UK way which identifies the Thai middle class as smal and the urban class as significant compared to a US defuinitioon where the middle class may seem a lot larger.

The other problem with labelling what is happening right now is you have several thing sgoing on at the same time: power struggle, Thaksin struggle a signifact part of the rural poor from certain regions struggling to improve their lot and a few things best not talked about and all of these have become entangled meaning imho a more nuanced view of what is happening needs to be made as it is very complicated. There are also groups who could change sides.

Interesting, particularly about the Chonbri urban working class.You are right too about the need to understand the nuance and context of class affiliations, but amidst all the clutter I think what we're seeing is certainly a class challenge to the unelected elite.

Sometimes I feel a great weariness at this TV debate between foreigners on Thai politics.One is reminded of the line at the end of Kubrick's great movie, Barry Lyndon.

"It was in the reign of George III that the aforesaid personages lived and quarreled; good or bad, handsome or ugly, rich or poor they are all equal now"

[viking75]

At first glance, I thought The Irrawaddy was the name for a Burmese tabloid. But upon further reading it appears to be Thai publication. Thoughtful and well written article, but one wonders whether it merits its own thread when there are so many going concurrently here on T.Visa. More succint, in my view, are the two news bits below....

THE NATION: Acting Police chief Pratheep moved police chief in Khon Kaen due to incompetent action regr redshirts

MCOTEnglishnews: Acting National Police Chief Pateep transfers Khon Kaen police commander to inactive post as he cannot handle Red Shirt movement in province

Good to hear the Police Chief is acting like a Police Chief for a change. But why just 'moved' (....to an inactive post? ......to a smaller provincial post far away?). Are they also demoted? Why not simply kick them out of the service with no pension. That seems fair when one considers their gross dereliction of duty; enabling a vindictive mob to assert control of their jurisdiction, with nary a feint of opposition from the people entrusted to maintain law and order.

Wake up, police can do job, they not want to.

Police do a bit here and little bit there so look like they follow orders.

Not interested to prop up elite regime anymore and are now wait for them to fall.

[chantorn]

Didn't the Democrats also give money directly to people just a few months back to "help the economy"

2,000 Baht each. What for? To buy vote legally?

[lannarebirth]

we have to focus on the Budget because obviously nobody want it on the table....probably too much lies and manglings behind...

This is a major Anti Corruption tool: transparency of the Budget.

Malicious speculation without any facts.

The full transparent and open discussion of the Budget is the Best Anti Corruption tool: important in a democracy: if you have nothing to fear, it should not be an issue to discuss openly the Budget. Put it on the table: I do not believe your rhetorics until it is followed by actions. Decisions of Politicians are converted in actions in the Budget....

you do not want to show the Budget...well, in this case, you want to hide something. As simple as this... No budget, No credibility of your rhetorics

I agree with you about the importance of transparency in the budget process Jerry. The problem is, once it is sent out from the central government the transparency ends. There is little accountability. Roughly, the Reds Shirts represent those that want to maintain that arrangement. the government OTOH wants wants to send MORE to the provinces but requires accountability of how funds are spent and seeks to reduce or eliminate "middlemen" and patronage systems. Hence the conflict. Thaksin supplies the money and the focal point, the succession provides the opportuity.