Can She Sell The House I Have A 30 Year Lease On ?

[cangetman]

I am no lawyer but what I do know is that anyone that would like to buy the land will ask to see the origanal chanot.If you have it in the UK it will be very hard for her to sell the land without being able to produce it to the buyer.I would guess that there is a way for her to get a copy but still very hard to sell the land.In the end why do you want to stay there anyway?As many people will say....cut your losses and move on.I know it really su_ks but live and learn.Contact an attorney in Thailand to find out your options.Issan lawyers may help,check them out.

i have cut my losses and left there niow i just have this 30 year lease on the property.

[tutsiwarrior]

I have read previously on the forum that legal agreements between spouses can be nullified by either partner at any time...I read this in the context of usufructs when one's wife is the landowner...

does this apply to leases between husband and wife?

[cangetman]

I have read previously on the forum that legal agreements between spouses can be nullified by either partner at any time...I read this in the context of usufructs when one's wife is the landowner...

does this apply to leases between husband and wife?

We were not married and no kids , only together 5 years or what a fool i have been.

[xylophone]

I have read previously on the forum that legal agreements between spouses can be nullified by either partner at any time...I read this in the context of usufructs when one's wife is the landowner...

does this apply to leases between husband and wife?

We were not married and no kids , only together 5 years or what a fool i have been.

Don't give up hope just yet. In a landmark case just a few years ago a Thai court ruled in favour of a farang in similar circumstances. He was able to prove that he provided the money to buy the house and land, so it was ruled that the property could be sold however the farang was to receive the greater % of the sale price.

Also you have a 30 yr lease so what is to stop you subleasing it anyway.

Get a top lawyer (Thai or Farang) to give you advice. For a small price you could get the best legal opinion money can buy, then confront your partner with it, then the ball is in her court.

[xylophone]

I have read previously on the forum that legal agreements between spouses can be nullified by either partner at any time...I read this in the context of usufructs when one's wife is the landowner...

does this apply to leases between husband and wife?

We were not married and no kids , only together 5 years or what a fool i have been.

Don't give up hope just yet. In a landmark case just a few years ago a Thai court ruled in favour of a farang in similar circumstances. He was able to prove that he provided the money to buy the house and land, so it was ruled that the property could be sold however the farang was to receive the greater % of the sale price.

Also you have a 30 yr lease so what is to stop you subleasing it anyway.

Get a top lawyer (Thai or Farang) to give you advice. For a small price you could get the best legal opinion money can buy, then confront your partner with it, then the ball is in her court.

[tutsiwarrior]

I have read previously on the forum that legal agreements between spouses can be nullified by either partner at any time...I read this in the context of usufructs when one's wife is the landowner...

does this apply to leases between husband and wife?

We were not married and no kids , only together 5 years or what a fool i have been.

yeah, I know yer not married...it was a general sorta question an' I don't mean to hijack...can anyone enlighten?

[cangetman]

I have read previously on the forum that legal agreements between spouses can be nullified by either partner at any time...I read this in the context of usufructs when one's wife is the landowner...

does this apply to leases between husband and wife?

We were not married and no kids , only together 5 years or what a fool i have been.

yeah, I know yer not married...it was a general sorta question an' I don't mean to hijack...can anyone enlighten?

all advice is welcome

[cangetman]

I have read previously on the forum that legal agreements between spouses can be nullified by either partner at any time...I read this in the context of usufructs when one's wife is the landowner...

does this apply to leases between husband and wife?

We were not married and no kids , only together 5 years or what a fool i have been.

Don't give up hope just yet. In a landmark case just a few years ago a Thai court ruled in favour of a farang in similar circumstances. He was able to prove that he provided the money to buy the house and land, so it was ruled that the property could be sold however the farang was to receive the greater % of the sale price.

Also you have a 30 yr lease so what is to stop you subleasing it anyway.

you have put a smile on my face Philnz and have givern me some hope , I would love to sublease it the problem i have is she wont leave the house she wont talk she is in Phuket and i am in the UK

if you could provide me with any details about the case you are talking about it would be greatly appreciated.

I have in the past confronted her to the point where i offered her 2 million baht and she told me to stick it

Get a top lawyer (Thai or Farang) to give you advice. For a small price you could get the best legal opinion money can buy, then confront your partner with it, then the ball is in her court.

[xylophone]

I have read previously on the forum that legal agreements between spouses can be nullified by either partner at any time...I read this in the context of usufructs when one's wife is the landowner...

does this apply to leases between husband and wife?

We were not married and no kids , only together 5 years or what a fool i have been.

Don't give up hope just yet. In a landmark case just a few years ago a Thai court ruled in favour of a farang in similar circumstances. He was able to prove that he provided the money to buy the house and land, so it was ruled that the property could be sold however the farang was to receive the greater % of the sale price.

Also you have a 30 yr lease so what is to stop you subleasing it anyway.

you have put a smile on my face Philnz and have givern me some hope , I would love to sublease it the problem i have is she wont leave the house she wont talk she is in Phuket and i am in the UK

if you could provide me with any details about the case you are talking about it would be greatly appreciated.

I have in the past confronted her to the point where i offered her 2 million baht and she told me to stick it

Get a top lawyer (Thai or Farang) to give you advice. For a small price you could get the best legal opinion money can buy, then confront your partner with it, then the ball is in her court.

Have searched my docs but cannot find the reference to the case I mentioned above...........it was either quoted here on Thai Visa or was published by one of the legal firms advertising on here as I remember "saving it" but where it is now????

The other major factor is that you are not here to pursue your case and the "tyranny of distance" will make that extremely difficult for you. IMO, do a search for the case I mentioned (but not really necessary) and contact a good legal firm here to see what they say. If you can get something prepared and it looks ok, then come here for a few weeks to sort it out. Good luck.

[StateSix]

she has signed the lease as well as me so why is it so difficult to get her out of the house ?

Thai rak Thai

No Thai will ever support a foreigner against a Thai.

The courts are Thai, the police are Thai and your solicitor is Thai.

While some may pretend to support your cause, in reality nobody actually does. You just spend more money (which everyone enjoys sharing) while everyone pretends to go through the legal motions.

If you were to sell your lease to a Thai, then things would be different (but a Thai would be unlikely to buy a lease).

What a load of rubbish. I got hit by another car coming off a slip road. The Thai guy refused to accept the blame. Went to the police station and they were spot on. They ruled in my favour and were nothing but polite. Would have been easy for them to say it was my fault as I was joining the tollway, even though the lane markings meant I had right of way.

[sarahsbloke]

Went to the police station and they were spot on.

So the Thai driver actually handed you the cash?

[aussiebebe]

I think the moral or the story is don't buy A house in thailand,ya have to put it in A thai's name.The lease sounds like A joke.Myself I think renting is the only way for A farang in thailand to go.

I agree with you, but I wouldn't underestimate the sheer amount of pressure that Thais (in fairness of all genders) can exert on their foreign partner or spouse. Foreigners living in Thailand are prone to lose their moral bearings unless they maintain a close support network of family and friends.

It bears repeating that Thai's from all socio-economic levels refer only to Caucasians as 'farang'. There is a whole set of specific expectations and 'rules'. Most Thai's don't view the prospect of marriage with a 'farang' as a life of work and renting. Quite the opposite in fact.

[cangetman]

she has signed the lease as well as me so why is it so difficult to get her out of the house ?

Thai rak Thai

No Thai will ever support a foreigner against a Thai.

The courts are Thai, the police are Thai and your solicitor is Thai.

While some may pretend to support your cause, in reality nobody actually does. You just spend more money (which everyone enjoys sharing) while everyone pretends to go through the legal motions.

If you were to sell your lease to a Thai, then things would be different (but a Thai would be unlikely to buy a lease).

What a load of rubbish. I got hit by another car coming off a slip road. The Thai guy refused to accept the blame. Went to the police station and they were spot on. They ruled in my favour and were nothing but polite. Would have been easy for them to say it was my

fault as I was joining the tollway, even though the lane markings meant I had right of way.

all i want to do is get her out of house with out being screwed by lawyers and the police in the process, i have never come across people so corrupt is it any wonder why foreigners dont want to invest in thailand the country wants everything from you but does not want to give any thing back , all they are doing is destroying their own economy, dont worry i am not bitter it is too late for that i just feel sorry them for being so simple sometimes or maybe it is us who are the simple ones when they take all our cash

[cangetman]

I think the moral or the story is don't buy A house in thailand,ya have to put it in A thai's name.The lease sounds like A joke.Myself I think renting is the only way for A farang in thailand to go.

I agree with you, but I wouldn't underestimate the sheer amount of pressure that Thais (in fairness of all genders) can exert on their foreign partner or spouse. Foreigners living in Thailand are prone to lose their moral bearings unless they maintain a close support network of family and friends.

It bears repeating that Thai's from all socio-economic levels refer only to Caucasians as 'farang'. There is a whole set of specific expectations and 'rules'. Most Thai's don't view the prospect of marriage with a 'farang' as a life of work and renting. Quite the opposite in fact.

i would have to say i agree 100% to buy a house in thailand is the most stupid thing anyone could do i know i am one of the stupid ones with brains in his pants i am now paying the price trying to evict the littel princess from the house i have on lease from her why did i put the house and land under her name and then take a lease out i will tell you why because i was thinking with the small head not the big head if i manage to get her out of the house i will throw a big party to all thai forum members who can come and have a dip in my swimming pool , just in case i forgot to meńtion the house is worth 10 million baht

[xylophone]

Cangetman quote: "all i want to do is get her out of house with out being screwed by lawyers and the police in the process".

Have been thinking about your predicament, and as I have previously said, you should consult a top lawyer, and it won't be that expensive. Having said that, I did view it from this following perspective (thereby making some assumptions): -- if the basis of the transaction was that both parties fulfilled certain obligations, inasmuch as you provided the money (very strong point in your favour) and put the property in her name, and for her part she signed a legal document to lease it back to you for 30 years, then she has not fulfilled her part of the contract/transaction/obligation.

Your lawyer could then pursue two avenues, the first being that she honours the lease agreement and thereby fulfils her part of the transaction, so that you can lease the property out and thereby gain an income/return. The other avenue is that in view of the nonfulfilment on her part, which again was the basis of the transaction, the property be sold (thereby unwinding the transaction) and the money is repatriated to you, with a percentage going to the girlfriend as a form of "goodwill" (as I recall, this was similar to the case I mentioned previously).

There is a potential third option, whereby if your lady decides to stay in the place, then she has to pay you the going rental amount, which on a 10 million baht house she probably could not afford. However it is another point of leverage.

By all means send me a PM if I can be of any help.

[cangetman]

Cangetman quote: "all i want to do is get her out of house with out being screwed by lawyers and the police in the process".

Have been thinking about your predicament, and as I have previously said, you should consult a top lawyer, and it won't be that expensive. Having said that, I did view it from this following perspective (thereby making some assumptions): -- if the basis of the transaction was that both parties fulfilled certain obligations, inasmuch as you provided the money (very strong point in your favour) and put the property in her name, and for her part she signed a legal document to lease it back to you for 30 years, then she has not fulfilled her part of the contract/transaction/obligation.

Your lawyer could then pursue two avenues, the first being that she honours the lease agreement and thereby fulfils her part of the transaction, so that you can lease the property out and thereby gain an income/return. The other avenue is that in view of the nonfulfilment on her part, which again was the basis of the transaction, the property be sold (thereby unwinding the transaction) and the money is repatriated to you, with a percentage going to the girlfriend as a form of "goodwill" (as I recall, this was similar to the case I mentioned previously).

There is a potential third option, whereby if your lady decides to stay in the place, then she has to pay you the going rental amount, which on a 10 million baht house she probably could not afford. However it is another point of leverage.

By all means send me a PM if I can be of any help.

thank you for the advice much appreciated not sure how to send a PM as this is my first time on a forum my personal email address is sorry removed, forum rules if you could send me your contact details on there i will contact you shortlly if thats okay with you.

also if you can let me know hów to send a pm that would be appreciated cheers philnz

[Crossy]

also if you can let me know hów to send a pm that would be appreciated cheers philnz

Click on the user you want to send the PM to (click on his name next to one of his posts).

Choose 'send message' from the resulting drop down.

Type your message.

Press send.

If you want to keep a copy of the message check the 'keep a copy in my sent messages folder' box.

[cangetman]

also if you can let me know hów to send a pm that would be appreciated cheers philnz

Click on the user you want to send the PM to (click on his name next to one of his posts).

Choose 'send message' from the resulting drop down.

Type your message.

Press send.

If you want to keep a copy of the message check the 'keep a copy in my sent messages folder' box.

ta crossy much appreciated

[witold]

i am now paying the price trying to evict the littel princess from the house i have on lease from her  why did i put the house and land under her name and then take a lease out i will tell you why because i was thinking with the small head not the big head if i manage to get her out of the house i will throw a big party to all thai forum members who can come and have a dip in my swimming pool , just in case i forgot to meńtion the house is worth 10 million baht

You still have a right to be in that house, and invite anyone you want to your house.  Why not have a TV house party anyway?  Or better yet, have TV house party every day?  Surely if anything can get this woman out of your house it's the bitter attitude of all these TV members surrounding her all day and partying?    

(sorry, don't really mean to make a joke out of your tough situation.)

[cangetman]

i am now paying the price trying to evict the littel princess from the house i have on lease from her  why did i put the house and land under her name and then take a lease out i will tell you why because i was thinking with the small head not the big head if i manage to get her out of the house i will throw a big party to all thai forum members who can come and have a dip in my swimming pool , just in case i forgot to meńtion the house is worth 10 million baht

You still have a right to be in that house, and invite anyone you want to your house.  Why not have a TV house party anyway?  Or better yet, have TV house party every day?  Surely if anything can get this woman out of your house it's the bitter attitude of all these TV members surrounding her all day and partying?    

(sorry, don't really mean to make a joke out of your tough situation.)

dont worry it is a funny situation i will laugh with you

[StateSix]

Went to the police station and they were spot on.

So the Thai driver actually handed you the cash?

Why would he do that when he was insured? His insurance company paid for everything as soon as the police ruled it was 100% his fault.

They also fined him Bt 500 for involving them.

[simon43]

Some readers of this thread seem to think that no-one will be interested in buying the house/land because your 30 year lease is detailed on the Chanote. She can report the Chanote lost and obtain a copy, but that will still have your lease detailed on it.

That is a naive view, because it assumes that the officers in the Land Office are not corruptable

I know from personal experience of Thalang land office in Phuket that they will (for a financial consideration), create a new chanote document with false details on it!

So, your GF can report the original Chanote as lost, get a copy from the land office that omits your lease details, and then she can quickly sell land and house at a knockdown price and disappear off the scene before you have a chance to challenge the chanote copy authenticity.

The only thing between you having a claim to live in the house and zilch-all is the honesty of the officers in the land office!

What can you do? I'm no lawyer, so I would suggest the 'Surat-Thani solution'

Simon

[blynch522]

I bought land some years ago and put it in the name of a long time friend,not my girlfriend,which I trust.

Anyway to seal the contract we went to a lawyer.He told me there are 2 different ways.You can take a 30 year lease and register it at the landoffice or you can lend money to the other party with the titledeed as colateral and have that registered at the landoffice and keep the titledeed in your possession.You can not have both on the same piece of land.

He advised me straight away.If you prefer the way of the 30 year lease and things turn sour you will have a reason to die.

The loan agreement is much safer because even in the case that you die it will the loan and the land title rights will go to your heirs.

Question is do you trust your lawyer? Or did he just do it the quick way to make some money?

[scorpions]

how many recommendations did you ignore when you bought the house?

already a risc to buy a condo in you own name ...

sorry to say som na na

[surayu]

That is a naive view, because it assumes that the officers in the Land Office are not corruptable

I know from personal experience of Thalang land office in Phuket that they will (for a financial consideration), create a new chanote document with false details on it!

If they can create false documents on this level, then also buying a condo wouldn't protect the buyer, right?

[sodahole]

On the question of a legal firm that might be of use, you could try Werachon

Law office in Pattaya, 038 304084. I can't recommend them personally, but they have run the excellent half page 'legal Corner' feature inthe Pattaya Today newspaper, for about 4 years or more. So they would have plenty of experience with Falang dealings.

Distance might be a problem, but maybe they could be of some use. The weekly feature is very good and they deal with many issues related to land and housing. Check some of their articles out online.. Warnings of inpending doom are always given and also options for limited protection, should you not wish to heed them.

Good luck, it must be tough having a dream home turn to a nightmare.

[simon43]

If they can create false documents on this level, then also buying a condo wouldn't protect the buyer, right?

If you are out of the country, and not living in your condo, then I'm sure false ownership documents could be created and the condo sold before you were any the wiser.

Her's another true example of how some land officers are corrupt. About 4 years ago, my Thai ex-wife borrowed some money from a private lender, using land that she owned as collateral. The loan was registered on the Chanote at the land office in Phuket, and the loan contract stipulated that the land would be forfeit after 1 year if the loan were not repaid. The loan contract document (3 copies) was created by the land office officials (I was present). My ex carefully scanned the first contract copy, all was OK and she signed it. The land office guy then handed her the 2 other 'copies' which she scanned very quickly (since they looked exactly the same), and signed them also. One of those copies was given to her and the deal completed.

3 weeks later, she was idly reading her copy of the contract and realized that it differed from the original contract by just one word. The contract that she very carefully read and signed stipulated loan repayment in 'one year'. Her copy of that contract stipulated repayment in 'one month' (ie, the land would be forfeited in just a few days hence!!)

We went quickly back to the land office, confronted them with the evidence and they corrected the 'error', explaining that their typist had made a mistake. Since the typist just had to hit the 'print' button on her computer and print out 3 copies of the same document, I found this rather hard to believe.

Since then, (and for other reasons well-documented on this forum), I have learnt to run very fast when someone says 'trust me', especially if they are a lawyer, government official, bank official etc.

Simon

[ESB7]

I think the moral or the story is don't buy A house in thailand,ya have to put it in A thai's name.The lease sounds like A joke.Myself I think renting is the only way for A farang in thailand to go.

And if you stay hre 10 years or more paying approx 9,000 a month rent, thats more than a million wasted....buying makes sense if you keep it pactical.

[sarahsbloke]

And if you stay hre 10 years or more paying approx 9,000 a month rent, thats more than a million wasted....buying makes sense if you keep it pactical.

Only if you keep the million in a box under your bed for the 10 years, only opening the box to extract the rent each month.

I can make between 6 and 12 percent from that million each year.

Current gross returns on private housing in Thailand is approx 5 percent (not the 10 percent you have assumed)

A simple calculation shows ... at the end of 10 years renting a 1 million bht property at the current rental prices of 4,500bht a month, I will have 2 million left, after paying my rent.

I live in a house valued at 1.8 million baht and pay 7000bht a month rental, if I were to purchase the house, at the end of 10 years I would need to sell it for 5 million baht in order to break even on my investment potential, which is highly unlikely.

Buying in Thailand rarely makes sense!

Edited May 23, 2010 by sarahsbloke

[ESB7]

And if you stay hre 10 years or more paying approx 9,000 a month rent, thats more than a million wasted....buying makes sense if you keep it pactical.

Only if you keep the million in a box under your bed for the 10 years, only opening the box to extract the rent each month.

I can make between 6 and 12 percent from that million each year.

Current gross returns on private housing in Thailand is approx 5 percent (not the 10 percent you have assumed)

A simple calculation shows ... at the end of 10 years renting a 1 million bht property at the current rental prices of 4,500bht a month, I will have 2 million left, after paying my rent.

I live in a house valued at 1.8 million baht and pay 7000bht a month rental, if I were to purchase the house, at the end of 10 years I would need to sell it for 5 million baht in order to break even on my investment potential, which is highly unlikely.

Buying in Thailand rarely makes sense!

12% Aint anywhere in the world at present with safe returns of 12%, do you work in one of those bangkok boiler rooms by any chance? Do the calculation correctly assuming a reasonable return of 4% and rent of 9,000 rather than an unrealistic 4,500 which is what a decent room costs rather than a nice bungalow. Rent is always money down the drain.