More Bloodshed In Bangkok As Red Siege Continues

[Luang]

deleted --- post didn't make it through the server

I am STILL amazed that the reds themselves can do no wrong in the eyes of so many. It doesn't matter that their leaders publicly call for violence. that their leaders declare war on the government. That they are armed. that they contain or have been infiltrated by terrorists. ......

Some people are just red to the core --- it doesn't matter to them how much damage the reds do to Thailand.

And you can include the so-called IMPARTIAL BBC in that. I am sick to the back teeth and their unashamed bias in all their reports on the troubles from day 1. What is it with their fixation of painting grenade throwing provocateurs with the 'poor Oliver Twist' brush?

Latest report is how the army are firing live rounds at the poor innocent people...erm they are attacking soldiers and burning the city down you absolute brainless gonks!

Taksin was slung out, does that count for nothing to the BBC. Oh, of course, i forgot, this has nothing to do wth him at all . As for those suggessting their impartiality, absolutely not in this case. Typical example was their reporting of the shooting of Seh Deng and how he was their security expert - nothing about his previous threats or actions - yes, really unbiased reporting. And of course the only weapos they have are firecrackers.....Sheeeesh!!

BBC, YOU SUCK!

[TAWP]

This fiasco finally put the international community on the line, some have come out openly support Thaksin (Monte Negro, Dubai, Cambodia, etc) while some are walking the fence. UN leader Ban called for more talk, but is he really 'in the know', does he have all the facts? We sure don't.

Is it possible that the majority of the world actually back Thaksin? Or are they just responding to the media's question with standard 'let's have a talk' response. the government have tried to negotiate, with the last "road map" being the most promising, and acceptable. The Reds then drag their feet before responding with their some what outrageous demand which guaranteed total break down.

Having an election in November isn't too long to wait, unless you're not confident that you would win.

What's wrong with having a set of rules that every one agrees to? Why are the UDD leaders so adamant in having a fast election? Scared to lose?

I'm sure that all of us ,Thai, were confident that the mess would have finished when the two side talked a couple of months ago. But both were not being flexible.

Now the words on the street is that the Shinawatra family have left the country, Gen Chavalit and co have also left. What does that mean for the Red protestors? Their supposed 'leading figures' have apparently left them out to dry, how can they still follow these people. Thaksin might not be the leader of the UDD, but he's definitely the heart and soul of the group, with his phone in and all.

A question I want to ask the international community is, how can you let a wanted fugitive enter your country? Mr. Thaksin has been found guilty and yet he's entering and leaving various countries like a freeman. He's not even using fake IDs, people. If this is because they view him as the legitimate leader of Thailand then just come out and say it, don't ignore it.

No nation has come out and backed the red shirt movement. None. Zero. Nada of them.

Infact, Montenegro even on Friday forbid Thaksin to use the nation as a platform for any propaganda-speeches etc.

So you are wrong there first of all.

Secondly, no nation is saying that they see Thaksin as the legitimate leader. Every country I have been to allow me to enter too and I am not the legitimate leader of my nation. There is no causality.

But yes, the November elections would not be too far to wait for and would be enough time for all parties to get their election machines going.

There is however a good reason this will not appease Thaksin and the inner circle: They needed to stack the military to make sure a new coup can never happen, before they try to do a 'soft coup' by buying an election and whitewashing the criminal Thaksin back into power.

Basically, they want to make sure every check and balance is disconnected for the big revolution that they aim for.

[473geo]

What a load of tosh, paid terrorists, evil billionaires, using women and children as a human shield

These are just your opinions. Respectable news stations try to stick to the facts which is why none of your content is reflected there.

Everyone knows the definition of terrorist by now so no need to go there and yes they are paid so what else can we call it? Do you think the blackshirts are out there for free? red shirt leaders wont get a big pay day if they pull this off? New stations report action and drama mate or a "good story" that's how they pay the bills. What fantasy land have you been living in where journos only report the facts? Fact: red shirt protesters have been paid and now the really nice part where payments are now being postponed to keep them staying there to BE USED AS HUMAN SHIELDS and this has been reported you just don't want to accept it for whatever reason?

Actually there is one very good way of stopping them being used as human shields.

You get say 5000 soldiers and they go and clear out the camp unarmed. It is basically a rabble with lots of women and children. If the Reds choose to shoot unarmed soldiers then they will never be forgiven, I believe, by the Thais. If the soldiers go in there fully armed there is bound to be bloodshed. There are only about 3000 there, so professional soldiers should be able to clear the site. I cant believe even the most radical of Reds leaders would order the shooting of unarmed soldiers.

90% are innocent and the other 10% cannot justify violence against an orderly but unarmed force to end the protest.

I believe the government and army realise they could be set up here......

They initiate a move into the protestors camp.......the tyres are ignited.....panic ensues, shots are fired, eventually when the smoke clears all they find inside is women, children and elderly people, as all others have melted into the Bankok horizon......any deaths or injuries will be attributed to the army and government......

And the hard core protestors.....still out there to regroup

[seahorse]

Some of you people make me sick! Ordinary people are dying from the work of snipers, not terrorists. And who would be the employer of snipers????

From UN definition of terrorism

"In November 2004, a United Nations Secretary General report described terrorism as any act "intended to cause death or serious bodily harm to civilians or non-combatants with the purpose of intimidating a population or compelling a government or an international organization to do or abstain from doing any act". "

By this definition the Issan Army occupying central Bangkok are terrorists.

Hey man, would you at least attribute your sources?

[LivinLOS]

So we have one armed blackshirt.. One guy shooting a Grenade.. And the army guys in the truck..

Versus..

100's possibly 1000's of youtube clips of army firing, including BBC, Al Jazera, CNN, and 100's of blogers and people on the street..

Your point is...that you are surprised that the military is using weapons, as announced, against criminals?

My basic point is I dont support violence on either side..

And secondly I think the army response is vastly disproportional.. To fire is self defence is one thing.. To have sharpshooters taking head shots at people presenting them no direct threat or actual bodily harm is simply escalating this and not solving it.

[FarangCravings]

deleted --- post didn't make it through the server

I am STILL amazed that the reds themselves can do no wrong in the eyes of so many. It doesn't matter that their leaders publicly call for violence. that their leaders declare war on the government. That they are armed. that they contain or have been infiltrated by terrorists. ......

Some people are just red to the core --- it doesn't matter to them how much damage the reds do to Thailand.

And you can include the so-called IMPARTIAL BBC in that. I am sick to the back teeth and their unashamed bias in all their reports on the troubles from day 1. What is it with their fixation of painting grenade throwing provocateurs with the 'poor Oliver Twist' brush?

Latest report is how the army are firing live rounds at the poor innocent people...erm they are attacking soldiers and burning the city down you absolute brainless gonks!

Taksin was slung out, does that count for nothing to the BBC. Oh, of course, i forgot, this has nothing to do wth him at all . As for those suggessting their impartiality, absolutely not in this case. Typical example was their reporting of the shooting of Seh Deng and how he was their security expert - nothing about his previous threats or actions - yes, really unbiased reporting. And of course the only weapos they have are firecrackers.....Sheeeesh!!

BBC, YOU SUCK!

Good on ya BBC

They are reporting the TRUTH as it is happening and the army can be clearly seen firing into the reds indiscriminatly

BBC is doing a great job so is CNN

[Insight]

So we have one armed blackshirt.. One guy shooting a Grenade.. And the army guys in the truck..

Versus..

100's possibly 1000's of youtube clips of army firing, including BBC, Al Jazera, CNN, and 100's of blogers and people on the street..

Like I said ONE black shirt guy with a rifle OK take him out but the killings of civilians shootings of Journalists, medics and children is just way out of whack.

But those on here all it takes is one video of one guy with a rifle to try and justify the murderous campaign the goverment is running

You think these guys want to get spotted? What do think all the tyre burning is about? Bit of coordination going on there...

And how many people have cameras.. Cell phones.. other portable recording devices..

And whose side are those people likely to be on right now? People watching/filming from their balcony have already been shot at - why is that? Who doesn't want to be seen?

These guys have been caught on camera before. Can imagine they'll be wanting to reduce that happening this time around.

[Skywalker69]

It's strange how the international media always seem to leave out the 'Thaksin link' when they report on this. It's such an important piece in the puzzle that to me it even feels suspicious that they don't mention this, almost like he's greased a few palms in the west (oh it does happen!). Instead they talk about the 'rural poor' versus the 'elite', and associate the word democracy with the very people who ruin the very idea by happily selling their vote fot the price of a couple of beers!

I think that the bbc/cnn and the rest of these 'non-biased' organisations should get to the real truth which is far more interesting than the story which they're currently reporting.

Why don't they ask the red shirts how much they're getting paid? Ask them why they think Thaksin is so great and what he could do for the country should he return. Ask them how they think that Thaksin, as a convicted criminal, could possibly plan to be taken seriously by the international community, should he manage to bully his way back into office.

Ask them why they are using women and children as a human shield.

Ask them why they risk their lives for a greedy evil billionaire?

Why can't the press get an interview with Thaksin? A few well placed questions will simply destroy him.

Why don't the international media do their job rather than appearing to be the heroes in the danger zone, reporting alongside the red-shirt 'freedom fighters'?

My point? It appears that Thaksin has more than just a few red-shirts in his back pocket!!!

Very true!

[Abrak]

And in all honesty tear gas and tasers render most people absolutely immobile anyway, as do stun grenades, noise, and powerful water jets. I've long been of the opinion that, for some reason, powerful parties simply prefer to see this problem continue and even escalate.

Every time a plan is announced to secure or reduce part of the protest site, in fact even more expanse of land falls under army control, it is in fact the opposite effect. Now, a major economic centre like Pratunam is completely closed!

Armies fight wars, that is their job, and left to their own devices they'll do this unchecked. Army governments are never a good idea as has been well demonstrated again.

Well yes it is really a case of 'crowd control'.

A lot of the remainder believe in a 'cause' I would guess and I suspect some are happy to be martyrs. If guns are used there will be bloodshed. If an unarmed soldier was shot, 90% of the people there would go quietly.

At the moment I think that the military are inciting violence and as you hint maybe intentionally.

[LivinLOS]

Ordinary people are dying

Terrorists from an occupying army are dying.

As are women and children, medic and journalists..

Is the outcome worth the price ??

[Neurath]

If you go to www.nationmultimedia.com

You will see a very unfortunate advertisement considering current events. The entry page says:

KEYNE,

by Sansiri

Register Online to Join the New Urban Elite.

Oh my

[seahorse]

....Motorcycles going in both directions - some against the flow of traffic.

back to normal then

Normalcy Normality has been restored!

[VictorMeldrewBKK]

video: red shirt protester shot in foot as he tries to set truck on fire. This goes in the face of reports that snipers firing only to kill.

Great shot and then he was allowed to hobble away.

http://www.ireport.com/docs/DOC-444833

[LivinLOS]

What a load of tosh, paid terrorists, evil billionaires, using women and children as a human shield

These are just your opinions. Respectable news stations try to stick to the facts which is why none of your content is reflected there.

Everyone knows the definition of terrorist by now so no need to go there and yes they are paid so what else can we call it? Do you think the blackshirts are out there for free? red shirt leaders wont get a big pay day if they pull this off? New stations report action and drama mate or a "good story" that's how they pay the bills. What fantasy land have you been living in where journos only report the facts? Fact: red shirt protesters have been paid and now the really nice part where payments are now being postponed to keep them staying there to BE USED AS HUMAN SHIELDS and this has been reported you just don't want to accept it for whatever reason?

Actually there is one very good way of stopping them being used as human shields.

You get say 5000 soldiers and they go and clear out the camp unarmed. It is basically a rabble with lots of women and children. If the Reds choose to shoot unarmed soldiers then they will never be forgiven, I believe, by the Thais. If the soldiers go in there fully armed there is bound to be bloodshed. There are only about 3000 there, so professional soldiers should be able to clear the site. I cant believe even the most radical of Reds leaders would order the shooting of unarmed soldiers.

90% are innocent and the other 10% cannot justify violence against an orderly but unarmed force to end the protest.

And in all honesty tear gas and tasers render most people absolutely immobile anyway, as do stun grenades, noise, and powerful water jets. I've long been of the opinion that, for some reason, powerful parties simply prefer to see this problem continue and even escalate.

Every time a plan is announced to secure or reduce part of the protest site, in fact even more expanse of land falls under army control, it is in fact the opposite effect. Now, a major economic centre like Pratunam is completely closed!

Armies fight wars, that is their job, and left to their own devices they'll do this unchecked. Army governments are never a good idea as has been well demonstrated again.

My conclusion of the last few days also..

If they wanted to clear this, it should be within their power. So I have to conclude its benefiting someone for this to be worse, someone with command of the army to enable it.

[balou]

http://www.freeforums.org/contact.php[/url] and write a complaint. Their legal section clearly states that their forums are not to be used for these type of things. While I support the freedom of speech, I do not support terroristic activities which this site is spewing.

i have done both, i urge others to do the same.

Done.

Done

Just one thing chaps, IT IS NOT YOUR BUSINESS, stay home with your Leo beer and do not take part of this. If you don't like, just go on an other site. INTERNET IS A FREE ZONE, never forget this.

[rixalex]

around 9-10pm last night i was on north of RatchaP on Pratunam Road near the Indra Hotel. Amazing scenes out of a movie: everything blacked out, a few residents scurrying about deathly scared of snipers and a red shirt guards crouching in the subsois. broken glass, and all sorts of barricades and broken bits scattered about the street from the earlier fighting.

The most interesting bit was talking to three local residents in a subsoi, all of whom said they didnt care for the Reds but now hate the army even more. They all mentioned a child apparently shot in the area, one mentioned a pregnant woman hit by a sniper. two said the government and the army cannot be buddhists.

it might have been the heat of the moment, of perhaps the goverment is shooting itself in the foot. i dont know.

also spoke to reds. young men, not ex army. some seemed very commited to the red cause; others escaping village boredom. two of them are either prepared to die facing the army or put on a hel_l of good show.

i made it as far as the indra but the road was blocked by barbed wire and out of nowhere a loudspeaker told me in thai not to approach any further.

rather unhelpfully, a man i hadnt seen in the dark crouching in his doorway then screamed "ai heeia" at the army post. it appears the soldiers didnt take it personally.

Anecdotes that reinforce your own beliefs. How convenient.

[noel2499rk]

Alastair Leithead aleithead

Moved on Rama4 behind protesters. High velocity rounds incoming. Some injured. Ambulance shot at. Burning tyre rolled, live rounds followed

This is latest tweet from BBC journo Alastair Leithead looks like the army haven't finished shooting paramedics yet.

[earthpig]

BBC, YOU SUCK!

you can say that again.

the bbc insists on reporting the conflict here in a way that suits their domestic uk left wing campaign and institutional bias. to them, all conflict in the world exists because some people are rich, which to them is prima facia evidence of unfairness.

paltry journalistic salaries, we may safely assume, has something to do with this bias;the effects of left wing brainwashing on the rather umipressive minds of many journalists is another.

all sensible, unbiased observers understand that the roots of the conflict here are several, and that the rich/poor divide plays a role, but a secondary one.

the only media that "sucks" worse than the BBC is the thai media.

in my humble opinion, TV demeans itself by its close association with the Nation.

[Old Man River]

What a load of tosh, paid terrorists, evil billionaires, using women and children as a human shield

These are just your opinions. Respectable news stations try to stick to the facts which is why none of your content is reflected there.

Everyone knows the definition of terrorist by now so no need to go there and yes they are paid so what else can we call it? Do you think the blackshirts are out there for free? red shirt leaders wont get a big pay day if they pull this off? New stations report action and drama mate or a "good story" that's how they pay the bills. What fantasy land have you been living in where journos only report the facts? Fact: red shirt protesters have been paid and now the really nice part where payments are now being postponed to keep them staying there to BE USED AS HUMAN SHIELDS and this has been reported you just don't want to accept it for whatever reason?

Actually there is one very good way of stopping them being used as human shields.

You get say 5000 soldiers and they go and clear out the camp unarmed. It is basically a rabble with lots of women and children. If the Reds choose to shoot unarmed soldiers then they will never be forgiven, I believe, by the Thais. If the soldiers go in there fully armed there is bound to be bloodshed. There are only about 3000 there, so professional soldiers should be able to clear the site. I cant believe even the most radical of Reds leaders would order the shooting of unarmed soldiers.

90% are innocent and the other 10% cannot justify violence against an orderly but unarmed force to end the protest.

I believe the government and army realise they could be set up here......

They initiate a move into the protestors camp.......the tyres are ignited.....panic ensues, shots are fired, eventually when the smoke clears all they find inside is women, children and elderly people, as all others have melted into the Bankok horizon......any deaths or injuries will be attributed to the army and government......

And the hard core protestors.....still out there to regroup

That is what is thought will happen. The Red/Black shirts will "sacrifice" some of the women and children at the Wat and of course, the blame will go on the government. Really, these poor people have been set up from the beginning. Today, they have been told they can leave, but yada yada yada (interpretation: fight on for democracy, we are all in this together and more yada yada yada - no translation needed).

I suspect when we actually do get back to democracy, most people will no longer want the PTP or the Democrats, and certainly not the PAD party. Newin will walk away with the next election easily. He is the middle of the road candidate. Easily.

[agord]

Ordinary people are dying

Terrorists from an occupying army are dying.

As are women and children, medic and journalists..

Is the outcome worth the price ??

You are asking the wrong people ask the red shirts if it was worth walking away from the deal they had they all seemed to like it until they call from master who didn't like the fact that he would not be in power in time for the new military terms.

[kissdani]

He got shot because a drunken red shirt tried to run a military roadblock. The soldiers opened fire on the van because it would not slow down or stop. What should the soldiers have done? The van could have been filled with explosives for all they knew. The blame for that child getting shot lies no where else than with the red shirts.

The kid got shot because the government ordered the use of live rounds. If you shot live rounds people die. Exactly that happened.

Sadly the child was collateral damage because he ignored warnings to leave the area.

Saying he was targeted by soldiers is a vicious and useless lie, since the truth IS known.

A ten years old ignored the warnings???

Collateral damage is just another word for killing of innocent civilians. It is military lingua, the languages of murderers. Not all of us here are soldiers or veterans, so please stick to the civilian word for it: MURDER.

HUH?

Better look up the definition of "MURDER".

Not all loss of life is "MURDER" and in no way would this be considered "MURDER" at the hands of the government troops. There MIGHT be a case for "Felony Murder" that could be applied to the driver of the van.

What is the purpose of live rounds?

Who shot? Who ordered the use of live rounds? Who is dead?

I think the case is pretty clear.

[FarangCravings]

BBC, YOU SUCK!

you can say that again.

the bbc insists on reporting the conflict here in a way that suits their domestic uk left wing campaign and institutional bias. to them, all conflict in the world exists because some people are rich, which to them is prima facia evidence of unfairness.

paltry journalistic salaries, we may safely assume, has something to do with this bias;the effects of left wing brainwashing on the rather umipressive minds of many journalists is another.

all sensible, unbiased observers understand that the roots of the conflict here are several, and that the rich/poor divide plays a role, but a secondary one.

the only media that "sucks" worse than the BBC is the thai media.

in my humble opinion, TV demeans itself by its close association with the Nation.

I think the BBC is doing a GREAT job and reporting it as it happens from reporters on the ground(that have not been shot by the military yet) Great honest reporting telling the real story

KUDOS to them

[animatic]

This fiasco finally put the international community on the line, some have come out openly support Thaksin (Monte Negro, Dubai, Cambodia, etc) while some are walking the fence. UN leader Ban called for more talk, but is he really 'in the know', does he have all the facts? We sure don't.

Is it possible that the majority of the world actually back Thaksin? Or are they just responding to the media's question with standard 'let's have a talk' response. the government have tried to negotiate, with the last "road map" being the most promising, and acceptable. The Reds then drag their feet before responding with their some what outrageous demand which guaranteed total break down.

Having an election in November isn't too long to wait, unless you're not confident that you would win.

What's wrong with having a set of rules that every one agrees to? Why are the UDD leaders so adamant in having a fast election? Scared to lose?

I'm sure that all of us ,Thai, were confident that the mess would have finished when the two side talked a couple of months ago. But both were not being flexible.

Now the words on the street is that the Shinawatra family have left the country, Gen Chavalit and co have also left. What does that mean for the Red protestors? Their supposed 'leading figures' have apparently left them out to dry, how can they still follow these people. Thaksin might not be the leader of the UDD, but he's definitely the heart and soul of the group, with his phone in and all.

A question I want to ask the international community is, how can you let a wanted fugitive enter your country? Mr. Thaksin has been found guilty and yet he's entering and leaving various countries like a freeman. He's not even using fake IDs, people. If this is because they view him as the legitimate leader of Thailand then just come out and say it, don't ignore it.

What tripe! Montenegro told Thaksin to shut up on the4ir territory.

He is seen as an embarrasement even there.

[rixalex]

To have sharpshooters taking head shots at people presenting them no direct threat or actual bodily harm is simply escalating this and not solving it.

From your keyboard, how are you possibly able to ascertain that the soldiers are under no direct threat?

[mccw]

video: red shirt protester shot in foot as he tries to set truck on fire. This goes in the face of reports that snipers firing only to kill.

Great shot and then he was allowed to hobble away.

http://www.ireport.com/docs/DOC-444833

great shot ,, thats the way to do it ,

i'd of aimed for the balls though

[FarangCravings]

To have sharpshooters taking head shots at people presenting them no direct threat or actual bodily harm is simply escalating this and not solving it.

From your keyboard, how are you possibly able to ascertain that the soldiers are under no direct threat?

Look at Sa Daeng he was no threat he was being interviewed not armed no threat at all

[ChouDoufu]

This is latest tweet from BBC journo Alastair Leithead looks like the army haven't finished shooting paramedics yet.

this cannot be from a responsible journalist.

[VictorMeldrewBKK]

To have sharpshooters taking head shots at people presenting them no direct threat or actual bodily harm is simply escalating this and not solving it.

From your keyboard, how are you possibly able to ascertain that the soldiers are under no direct threat?

video: red shirt protester shot in foot as he tries to set truck on fire. This goes in the face of reports that snipers firing only to kill.

Great shot and then he was allowed to hobble away.

http://www.ireport.com/docs/DOC-444833

[rixalex]

To have sharpshooters taking head shots at people presenting them no direct threat or actual bodily harm is simply escalating this and not solving it.

From your keyboard, how are you possibly able to ascertain that the soldiers are under no direct threat?

Look at Sa Daeng he was no threat he was being interviewed not armed no threat at all

OK. So show me proof he was shot by a soldier, and when you can't, find another example to try and prove your point.

[Tod Daniels]

Actually given the government 'crack-down' has gone on for nearly 3 days; there're remarkably VERY few deaths and casualties overall.

I'm NOT marginalizing them by any stretch of the imagination (and a sensible person might have wishfully hoped this situation could have been resolved without loss of life).

I'm only pointing out, up until this point the military has exhibited remarkable restraint in dealing with the armed, violent protestors hel_l bent on goading the military thru the use of M79 grenades, rolling burning tires, throwing M150 bottles of petrol, and firing off home made rockets, into an all out fire fight. Given the possibility of a curfew in select areas, it’s starting to look more like a 'gloves off, end game' for the red-rabble.

Abhisit's government hasta be given credit for this restraint. Reading some of the foreign news takes on this situation; shows the red protestors have lost ANY shred of credibility they once might have had in the eyes of the international community for NOT calling this 'peaceful protest' off WEEKS ago when they got what they initially demanded a Lower House dissolution, new elections, possible amnesty for banned politicians, and constitutional amendments.

Instead it would seem they prefer to sacrifice their 'sheep-like' followers to further their sadly misplaced ideology about what constitutes a 'democracy'.

It's truly sad for the rank-n-file protestors, as I'm sure NONE of the core red-rabble-leaders will be harmed.