More Bloodshed In Bangkok As Red Siege Continues

[neverdie]

Department of State has authorized departure of all non-emergency US govt personnel & eligible family members fr #Bangkok.

I would guess that the US Embassy has more information on what is going to happen then anyone here. If they go to that stage, the <deleted> is going to hit the fan soon.

RED's go home before it is too late and if your leaders would care about your welfare they would hand themselves in and ask you to go home

John, With all respects, EVERYBODY understands what is going on. The 3pm deadline was issued yesterday, its just a touch before 2pm - no wonder the warning has been issued.

Seems to me that the reds are the only ones that don't understand - I was trying to convey the seriousness of the situation

Im glad I gave it more space then

[rabo]

But I also know that 10 year old died because Thaksin wants to teach a lesson to those that threw him out.

actually, that boy, like the pregnant woman, died because a sniper's bullet pierced their abdomens causing massive blood loss.

the rest is just talk.

and im no supporter of thaksin.

Well earthpig, OK, actually they died becasue they were born. Aside from that I repeat that this is Thaksin's war and he is ultimately responsible. This is not a questionable issue to the Thai's, it's not a conspiracy theory. This is the factual story that has been on the table for a couple of years. All factions in Thailand know this, especially those who must deal with the issues.

Even the reds say this is about getting Thaksin back, where is the mystery?

[whybother]

Then why have the red shirts expanded their barricades into these areas? If the reds are worried about these people, then at least pull back into their original protest areas that didn't include these poor neighborhoods.

I understand your point but what I dont understand is how the military have allowed them to expand their protest areas over the last 3 or 4 days. The protest area was supposed to be closed off. This problem could have been contained by a trained military force.

Most of us have consistently bayed for the protestors to go home. They have a perfect opportunity now before 3pm.

Yes they have had every opportunity to go home. I fully understand the protests need to end. But the peaceful protesters need to be arrested and not shot. My concern is that a few 'terrorist' Red Shirts combined with an aggressive army crackdown might end up with a massacre of basically 'innocent lives'. Now people will say they are not 'innocent', they should accept the consequences etc. But the consequences will really be an increasingly divided Nation where ultimately military control will simply be enforced on the basis that it is a 'failed democracy.'

The army haven't gone in because of the "peaceful protestors". I don't understand why so many trucks of supplies are being let in.

(from daily rally thread: Pick up trucks, barrels full of petrol: http://twitpic.com/1ojdt9 /via @freakingcat).

The government is giving the "peaceful protestors" every chance to go home before they go in for the armed thugs. "Peaceful protesters" will probably be killed because they are effectively supporting the armed thugs.

[Jingthing]

gentlemen, you need to open your eyes as to what is happening all around you. we live in a dangerous place becoming more dangerous by the day.

Agreed. So they win, you think they will be satisfied with a "free and fair" election? This is a revolutionary insurgency looking to completely topple all existing government structures in Thailand.

Edited May 17, 2010 by Jingthing

[BackinBKK]

Just reading Asok/Sukhumvit junction is now being barricaded with tyres etc. Can anyone confirm if the mob has spread east along Sukhumvit?

again, its not a matter of the Reds surging out of Ratchaprasong. Red neighborhoods are uprising on all four points of the Bangkok compass.

As we saw yesterday at Klong Teoi, they are surging out of their neighborhoods with a very clear tactic: sandwich the army formations and cut them off from resupply.

What makes you think that only Reds can be surrounded? the army is far more vulnerable to encirclement because its supply base is not indiginous to sympathetic neighborhoods, and the materiel it requries is more complex.

TV posters have to stop looking at this as an issan invasion of RathaP. we are way passed that.

the assasination of Sae Deang has set off an uprising of Reds all over Bangkok and, it would seem from certain reports, perhaps over other parts of thailand.

there is no debate; the reds are armed, even if there arms are by themselves no match for thai army. but the reds have something that has greater currency on the field of battle: determination.

gentlemen, you need to open your eyes as to what is happening all around you. we live in a dangerous place becoming more dangerous by the day.

You're assuming that Seh Daeng was shot by a Gov't ordered sniper. I'm not saying this isn't possible, however, it is equally as likely that he was targeted and shot by another faction of the Reds to get him out of the way OR by others who have suffered because of his non-willingness to agree with the majority of the Red leaders to continue negotiations and enter the reconciliation process.

Maybe I missed something, but I was under the understanding that it is still unknown who carried out the shot on Seh Daeng.

[toptuan]

Just reading Asok/Sukhumvit junction is now being barricaded with tyres etc. I don't understand how the mob has been allowed to spread east along Sukhumvit.

That seems like a strange thing to do, especially since their leaders stated about an hour ago that they were ready to negotiate without conditions. Whats going on then? Is everyone on the same page?

Troubling indeed. This spot is a full 1.4 km. east of the area supposedly "contained" by the army.

Later edit: Many tweets showing Asoke/Sukhumvit area looking normal.

Edited May 17, 2010 by toptuan

[whybother]

Just reading Asok/Sukhumvit junction is now being barricaded with tyres etc. Can anyone confirm if the mob has spread east along Sukhumvit?

again, its not a matter of the Reds surging out of Ratchaprasong. Red neighborhoods are uprising on all four points of the Bangkok compass.

As we saw yesterday at Klong Teoi, they are surging out of their neighborhoods with a very clear tactic: sandwich the army formations and cut them off from resupply.

What makes you think that only Reds can be surrounded? the army is far more vulnerable to encirclement because its supply base is not indiginous to sympathetic neighborhoods, and the materiel it requries is more complex.

TV posters have to stop looking at this as an issan invasion of RathaP. we are way passed that.

the assasination of Sae Deang has set off an uprising of Reds all over Bangkok and, it would seem from certain reports, perhaps over other parts of thailand.

there is no debate; the reds are armed, even if there arms are by themselves no match for thai army. but the reds have something that has greater currency on the field of battle: determination.

gentlemen, you need to open your eyes as to what is happening all around you. we live in a dangerous place becoming more dangerous by the day.

There aren't many poor reds down that end of Suhkumvit. Unless it's all the bar girls .....

[Netfan]

Just reading Asok/Sukhumvit junction is now being barricaded with tyres etc. Can anyone confirm if the mob has spread east along Sukhumvit?

again, its not a matter of the Reds surging out of Ratchaprasong. Red neighborhoods are uprising on all four points of the Bangkok compass.

As we saw yesterday at Klong Teoi, they are surging out of their neighborhoods with a very clear tactic: sandwich the army formations and cut them off from resupply.

What makes you think that only Reds can be surrounded? the army is far more vulnerable to encirclement because its supply base is not indiginous to sympathetic neighborhoods, and the materiel it requries is more complex.

TV posters have to stop looking at this as an issan invasion of RathaP. we are way passed that.

the assasination of Sae Deang has set off an uprising of Reds all over Bangkok and, it would seem from certain reports, perhaps over other parts of thailand.

there is no debate; the reds are armed, even if there arms are by themselves no match for thai army. but the reds have something that has greater currency on the field of battle: determination.

gentlemen, you need to open your eyes as to what is happening all around you. we live in a dangerous place becoming more dangerous by the day.

settle down comrade. the reds are holding these neighborhoods hostage. the residents of these neighborhoods are working poor and have no place to go. they are not rising up for anything, except a few drug addicts apparently paid to run around and dance in their underwear. the people in these neighborhoods are being deprived of their livelihoods, their children cannot go to school. The red terrorists have been allowed, thru inept tactics by the military, to literally run riot in bangkok. that will thankfully end very soon.

[DLock]

Why do so many posters see no problems in the army firing live rounds at protesters building barricades and running into the open with makeshift weapons such as slingshots and rocks? Prime Minister Aphisit said that the army would conduct itself according to international standards. The international standard in this situation is the UN Basic Principles on the Use of Force and Firearms by Law Enforcement Officials, which requires an imminent threat to life to be present before lethal force is used. Observers abroad are commenting on the disproportionate violence. Clearly the majority of TV posters do not like the stance taken by the BBC, CNN, etc. I don't expect that they will be happy either to see the top item on the Human Rights Watch homepage.

http://www.hrw.org/en/home

One does not need to support Thaksin or the wider red shirt cause to know that shooting people like this is wrong.

You see, where I come from, we wouldn't "run out into the open with makeshift weapons such as slingshots and rocks" knowing that the military are at the other end of the street taking shots at us.

Maybe thats just me.

[yoshiwara]

But I also know that 10 year old died because Thaksin wants to teach a lesson to those that threw him out.

actually, that boy, like the pregnant woman, died because a sniper's bullet pierced their abdomens causing massive blood loss.

the rest is just talk.

and im no supporter of thaksin.

Well earthpig, OK, actually they died becasue they were born. Aside from that I repeat that this is Thaksin's war and he is ultimately responsible. This is not a questionable issue to the Thai's, it's not a conspiracy theory. This is the factual story that has been on the table for a couple of years. All factions in Thailand know this, especially those who must deal with the issues.

Even the reds say this is about getting Thaksin back, where is the mystery?

There is no mystery.

Only plenty of smokescreen from the Thaksin supporters who know the score.

[pornsasi]

What spin? I asked you if you thought a Thai ten year old has the metal capacity to make that decision given the circumstances and gravity of the situation.

You also mention it was "collateral damage, a crossfire or ricochet", I assume you have proof of this?

As usual ignore my answers given and quote me out of context. Same same for you.

I have the published and clear words of the soldiers at the scene to the press,

posted in the TVF locked press release thread right after the incident.

I will not bother to spend an hour trying to back track 100 pages to find it for you.

And yes I think a Ten year old has the capacity for rational thought,

just they still get caught in their emotions too much.

Can a ten year old follow direct orders. Yes, most of them.

Best example, 10 or even younger year old [b]child soldiers [/b]in Africa - when asked "how many people have you killed?" his answer was 2 !

yesterday, i have suggest we do not utilise this death for fuelling our debate. A lot of you have supported the idea; it has been a non wanted accident.

Today again I repeat we should not use this, particularly when twisting the facts: this poor young boy was just a passer by, probably playing, not understanding the situation.

Shame on those who are playing with this death and the facts....

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Than you should ask the red supporters here not to bring it up again and again in an attempt to make the government look bad

Nor to twist simple statements into abhorent political statements

that never were said or implied.

I do agree with you on this issue . But actually there is no need for anyone to make the governement look bad

The governement itself does a fantastic job doing so

[BKjohn]

A pertinent point . One cant silence deep divisions with bullets

Reminds me of US in Vietnam and their so called "body count" .

The more reds die , the more the governement think they are winning .

Well ... we know otherwise

The press is nothing but a whore, prostituting themselves to revenue - facts come second or even third

You should not read the Nation only

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You little muppet you I mend the press in general - editorial is managed by accounting - photographers are getting more money the more sensational the shot and reporters do not report anymore but fit the story to what the editor wants to appease management with increasing sales figures which increases revenue from advertising

A story about the poor raising up to ......... and facing an army with large weapons ..... sells a lot better than the reality of a vengeful, violent and well armed mob being confronted by the governments soldiers and a government trying to stop a dictator in the making to return to power via anarchy

It has something to do with societies sympathy for the underdog - Thailand is still a free country and not a dictatorship like Burma or in the past Haity or the Dominican Republic or Uganda or ...... so they have to make it up to look like the reds are fighting for freedom and of course are unarmed - though not going so far as to actually say this but simply leaving out certain truth's

[naughtybadfurrimunki]

Just reading Asok/Sukhumvit junction is now being barricaded with tyres etc. I don't understand how the mob has been allowed to spread east along Sukhumvit.

That seems like a strange thing to do, especially since their leaders stated about an hour ago that they were ready to negotiate without conditions. Whats going on then? Is everyone on the same page?

Troubling indeed. This spot is a full 1.4 km. east of the area supposedly "contained" by the army.

Increasingly looking like false information, quite a few photos been doing the doing the rounds on twitter over the past 10 mins or so showing all is normal at asoke.

[dino67]

I've seen several pics of redshirts and men in black armed with variants of AK47's. Hard to see a close up but most probably a Chinese made version, there are 3 or 4 manufactures with the most common being Norinco.

They did not get these from the Royal Thai Army but some of the semi-professional militia around the borders of Thailand sometimes carry these weapons. Pretty easy to obtain in Thailand on the black market.

[jcbangkok]

I think it is a little naive to really care much of what the international community thinks. They only care they are friendly with whoever is in power tomorrow. Come on now ... the US calling for talks when they would never tolerate this type of violence or the theft of billions of dollars in public and private property.

The truth is that even here in Thailand this will largely be forgot in the very near future. That is unless the gov;t stops working to uphold the law and caves in because then we know another group will use a tactic like this (illegal violent thieving mob) because they know it will can work.

Truth of the matter is that I am in BKK and am more glued to the final episode of Survivor than checking news reports. And even going outside and speaking with other Thais none of them seemed concerned with the injury totals and just concerned with if and when the reds will vacate if they are talking at all about it.

EDIT: Russel made it to the final 3

Edited May 17, 2010 by jcbangkok

[pornsasi]

Just reading Asok/Sukhumvit junction is now being barricaded with tyres etc. Can anyone confirm if the mob has spread east along Sukhumvit?

again, its not a matter of the Reds surging out of Ratchaprasong. Red neighborhoods are uprising on all four points of the Bangkok compass.

As we saw yesterday at Klong Teoi, they are surging out of their neighborhoods with a very clear tactic: sandwich the army formations and cut them off from resupply.

What makes you think that only Reds can be surrounded? the army is far more vulnerable to encirclement because its supply base is not indiginous to sympathetic neighborhoods, and the materiel it requries is more complex.

TV posters have to stop looking at this as an issan invasion of RathaP. we are way passed that.

the assasination of Sae Deang has set off an uprising of Reds all over Bangkok and, it would seem from certain reports, perhaps over other parts of thailand.

there is no debate; the reds are armed, even if there arms are by themselves no match for thai army. but the reds have something that has greater currency on the field of battle: determination.

gentlemen, you need to open your eyes as to what is happening all around you. we live in a dangerous place becoming more dangerous by the day.

You're assuming that Seh Daeng was shot by a Gov't ordered sniper. I'm not saying this isn't possible, however, it is equally as likely that he was targeted and shot by another faction of the Reds to get him out of the way OR by others who have suffered because of his non-willingness to agree with the majority of the Red leaders to continue negotiations and enter the reconciliation process.

Maybe I missed something, but I was under the understanding that it is still unknown who carried out the shot on Seh Daeng.

Yes agree , nobody knows . But for sure it is very unlikely that he was shot by a red shirt , IMHO

[earthpig]

when you say completely innocent people die and are terrorized in REAL urban combat are you rationalizing the shooting of rpg's at a hotel?

ABSOLUTELY NOT.

I dont defend the red violence. indeed i have posted videos showing they are armed.

I am rationalizing an immediate ceasefire, a general amnesty, and dissolution of parliament and free untainted and foreign monitored elections ASAP.

This is the only way to restore legitimacy to the government of Thailand in the eyes of most of its people. And a government considered legitimate by its people (if not by farang posters on TV) is the only thing that can put the gods of war back into their cave.

It is the only forward without necessarily a river of blood.

[BKjohn]

I think it is a little naive to really care much of what the international community thinks. They only care they are friendly with whoever is in power tomorrow. Come on now ... the US calling for talks when they would never tolerate this type of violence or the theft of billions of dollars in public and private property.

The truth is that even here in Thailand this will largely be forgot in the very near future. That is unless the gov;t stops working to uphold the law and caves in because then we know another group will use a tactic like this (illegal violent thieving mob) because they know it will can work.

Truth of the matter is that I am in BKK and am more glued to the final episode of Survivor than checking news reports. And even going outside and speaking with other Thais none of them seemed concerned with the injury totals and just concerned with if and when the reds will vacate if they are talking at all about it.

EDIT: Russel made it to the final 3

same same here - moo ban meeting yesterday besides me all others are Thai - after the offical meeting was over, a discussion and without exception all behind the government or pissed off because they haven't acted sooner

[pornsasi]

Agreed. So they win, you think they will be satisfied with a "free and fair" election? This is a revolutionary insurgency looking to completely topple all existing government structures in Thailand.

Well the only way to know is to have those elections .

[rabo]

Just reading Asok/Sukhumvit junction is now being barricaded with tyres etc. Can anyone confirm if the mob has spread east along Sukhumvit?

again, its not a matter of the Reds surging out of Ratchaprasong. Red neighborhoods are uprising on all four points of the Bangkok compass.

As we saw yesterday at Klong Teoi, they are surging out of their neighborhoods with a very clear tactic: sandwich the army formations and cut them off from resupply.

What makes you think that only Reds can be surrounded? the army is far more vulnerable to encirclement because its supply base is not indiginous to sympathetic neighborhoods, and the materiel it requries is more complex.

TV posters have to stop looking at this as an issan invasion of RathaP. we are way passed that.

the assasination of Sae Deang has set off an uprising of Reds all over Bangkok and, it would seem from certain reports, perhaps over other parts of thailand.

there is no debate; the reds are armed, even if there arms are by themselves no match for thai army. but the reds have something that has greater currency on the field of battle: determination.

gentlemen, you need to open your eyes as to what is happening all around you. we live in a dangerous place becoming more dangerous by the day.

You're assuming that Seh Daeng was shot by a Gov't ordered sniper. I'm not saying this isn't possible, however, it is equally as likely that he was targeted and shot by another faction of the Reds to get him out of the way OR by others who have suffered because of his non-willingness to agree with the majority of the Red leaders to continue negotiations and enter the reconciliation process.

Maybe I missed something, but I was under the understanding that it is still unknown who carried out the shot on Seh Daeng.

With due respect, as they say, I don't think earthpig is claiming the Army shot Seh Daeng, but it is surly possible.

Equally possible is Thaksin who gets a double bonus. He successfully triggers the desired uprising and gets rid of the mouth piece connecting him to the armed insurrection. The army only gets a very skilled commander off the field, well, and a bit of tit for tat.

A bit surprised they didn't find two bullets in his head.

Edited May 17, 2010 by rabo

[leogerritsen]

BBC reporting now much more balanced.

Sean Boonpracond speaking for the reds admitted some of the reds are armed.

He also failed to answer BBC question "why don't you just leave"?

He also claimed most foreigners supported the reds. (Well I for one do not)

Video of young Thai thugs building piles of tyres for burning. Are these people on Yaba or what?

Repeated polling here at Thaivisa.com over years now definitely shows that the VAST MAJORITY of foreigners in Thailand do NOT support the red shirt/Thaksin movement. The vast majority DO support social reforms of many kinds here but that is NOT the same thing as supporting the red shirt violent insurgency make Thaksin dictator movement.

As another poster stated, if the red insurgents and their more innocent fellow travelers want to avoid violence, just walk away. At this point because of the war that they declared and started, they may have to wave a white flag, but that is their fault.

i agree with all my heart

[thefusilier]

Just reading Asok/Sukhumvit junction is now being barricaded with tyres etc. Can anyone confirm if the mob has spread east along Sukhumvit?

again, its not a matter of the Reds surging out of Ratchaprasong. Red neighborhoods are uprising on all four points of the Bangkok compass.

As we saw yesterday at Klong Teoi, they are surging out of their neighborhoods with a very clear tactic: sandwich the army formations and cut them off from resupply.

What makes you think that only Reds can be surrounded? the army is far more vulnerable to encirclement because its supply base is not indiginous to sympathetic neighborhoods, and the materiel it requries is more complex.

TV posters have to stop looking at this as an issan invasion of RathaP. we are way passed that.

the assasination of Sae Deang has set off an uprising of Reds all over Bangkok and, it would seem from certain reports, perhaps over other parts of thailand.

there is no debate; the reds are armed, even if there arms are by themselves no match for thai army. but the reds have something that has greater currency on the field of battle: determination.

gentlemen, you need to open your eyes as to what is happening all around you. we live in a dangerous place becoming more dangerous by the day.

You're assuming that Seh Daeng was shot by a Gov't ordered sniper. I'm not saying this isn't possible, however, it is equally as likely that he was targeted and shot by another faction of the Reds to get him out of the way OR by others who have suffered because of his non-willingness to agree with the majority of the Red leaders to continue negotiations and enter the reconciliation process.

Maybe I missed something, but I was under the understanding that it is still unknown who carried out the shot on Seh Daeng.

Yes agree , nobody knows . But for sure it is very unlikely that he was shot by a red shirt , IMHO

Why? There are a couple advantages...

1) He was just as much of a threat to the red's than to the government. You ever hear what he's said about them?

2) His death would make him either a martyr or at least embolden the red cause.

3) The reds are the only ones who benefit when anyone dies.

...not saying the reds did it, but I'm always amazed how you see the world in black and white.

[Netfan]

when you say completely innocent people die and are terrorized in REAL urban combat are you rationalizing the shooting of rpg's at a hotel?

ABSOLUTELY NOT.

I dont defend the red violence. indeed i have posted videos showing they are armed.

I am rationalizing an immediate ceasefire, a general amnesty, and dissolution of parliament and free untainted and foreign monitored elections ASAP.

This is the only way to restore legitimacy to the government of Thailand in the eyes of most of its people. And a government considered legitimate by its people (if not by farang posters on TV) is the only thing that can put the gods of war back into their cave.

It is the only forward without necessarily a river of blood.

Accepting that road map would have been a big step. too bad the reds Thaksin was so pig-headed and stubborn. Funny now how that road map seems so far away but november elections would be so close.

[mmushr00m]

IMO, the Red Leaders are already looking for a way out.

Reading between the lines, they are already disassociating themselevs from all the fighting by stating that the protest is peaceful as everyone in the rally grounds are peaceful and unarmed and that they have nothing to do with the fighting and cannot control the people outside the rally grounds.

Talk about selling out the ppl doing the fighting and dying....all so they can get a "get out of jail free" card.

[neverdie]

IMO, the Red Leaders are already looking for a way out.

Reading between the lines, they are already disassociating themselevs from all the fighting by stating that the protest is peaceful as everyone in the rally grounds are peaceful and unarmed and that they have nothing to do with the fighting and cannot control the people outside the rally grounds.

Talk about selling out the ppl doing the fighting and dying....all so they can get a "get out of jail free" card.

Thats all good and well BUT, they should already be on their bikes, all of them, pedalling their way to peace.

[BKjohn]

IMO, the Red Leaders are already looking for a way out.

Reading between the lines, they are already disassociating themselevs from all the fighting by stating that the protest is peaceful as everyone in the rally grounds are peaceful and unarmed and that they have nothing to do with the fighting and cannot control the people outside the rally grounds.

Talk about selling out the ppl doing the fighting and dying....all so they can get a "get out of jail free" card.

Any weakness now by the government and giving in to the reds will only open the doors for long term problems. Any group that feels they have a grievance with the government will come to Bangkok and start the same <deleted> considering they have nothing to fear

Only total unconditional surrender by the reds and their leaders can be acceptable at this point !

The choice is theirs and considering their speeches on record, who do they think believes in any good intentions on their part ???

[LuckyLew]

Just reading Asok/Sukhumvit junction is now being barricaded with tyres etc. Can anyone confirm if the mob has spread east along Sukhumvit?

again, its not a matter of the Reds surging out of Ratchaprasong. Red neighborhoods are uprising on all four points of the Bangkok compass.

As we saw yesterday at Klong Teoi, they are surging out of their neighborhoods with a very clear tactic: sandwich the army formations and cut them off from resupply.

What makes you think that only Reds can be surrounded? the army is far more vulnerable to encirclement because its supply base is not indiginous to sympathetic neighborhoods, and the materiel it requries is more complex.

TV posters have to stop looking at this as an issan invasion of RathaP. we are way passed that.

the assasination of Sae Deang has set off an uprising of Reds all over Bangkok and, it would seem from certain reports, perhaps over other parts of thailand.

there is no debate; the reds are armed, even if there arms are by themselves no match for thai army. but the reds have something that has greater currency on the field of battle: determination.

gentlemen, you need to open your eyes as to what is happening all around you. we live in a dangerous place becoming more dangerous by the day.

You're assuming that Seh Daeng was shot by a Gov't ordered sniper. I'm not saying this isn't possible, however, it is equally as likely that he was targeted and shot by another faction of the Reds to get him out of the way OR by others who have suffered because of his non-willingness to agree with the majority of the Red leaders to continue negotiations and enter the reconciliation process.

Maybe I missed something, but I was under the understanding that it is still unknown who carried out the shot on Seh Daeng.

Yes agree , nobody knows . But for sure it is very unlikely that he was shot by a red shirt , IMHO

You agree that no one knows who shot SD

but you couln;t help tossing in ii "unlikely he was shot by a red"

Just couldn't totally agree could ya

[naughtybadfurrimunki]

IMO, the Red Leaders are already looking for a way out.

Reading between the lines, they are already disassociating themselevs from all the fighting by stating that the protest is peaceful as everyone in the rally grounds are peaceful and unarmed and that they have nothing to do with the fighting and cannot control the people outside the rally grounds.

Talk about selling out the ppl doing the fighting and dying....all so they can get a "get out of jail free" card.

Thats all good and well BUT, they should already be on their bikes, all of them, pedalling their way to peace.

I'm sure pedalling when you've shit in your pants is most uncomfortable.

[earthpig]

Aside from that I repeat that this is Thaksin's war and he is ultimately responsible.

indeed, you do repeat your view. and repeat and repeat....

thaksin absolutely shares responsibility for this. but to suggest that he is the only--or even the most important--player is, in my ever so humble opinion, is an unhelpful oversimplification.

there are a huge number of other factors at play here. some of these factors are due to economic factors that affect all rapidly developing societies, others are unique to thailand and some even to buddhism.

true, any leader responsibile for a tak bai or thousands of extra judicial murders is ultimately going to be hated. good riddance to the man.

but this fact should not obscure the truth, and the truth encompasses far more than thaksin, his many sins and indeed as well, his political genius.

[toptuan]

IMO, the Red Leaders are already looking for a way out.

Reading between the lines, they are already disassociating themselevs from all the fighting by stating that the protest is peaceful as everyone in the rally grounds are peaceful and unarmed and that they have nothing to do with the fighting and cannot control the people outside the rally grounds.

Talk about selling out the ppl doing the fighting and dying....all so they can get a "get out of jail free" card.

Of the unruly crowds outside the rally grounds, I really wonder the what is the percentage of common thugs and criminals who become opportunists at times like this. I'm sure we'll probably never know, but I'm equally sure they're out there, which makes this that much more of a volatile situation.