More Bloodshed In Bangkok As Red Siege Continues

[GungaDin]

bkkjohn

Please learn how to use the quote feature.

Your posts are a "dog's dinner"

[stepenwolf1958]

Why no water cannons? There is enough dirty water in the khlongs of Bangkok. Instead of bullets. It's what civilized countries do.

Why do you only see one side so completely? In CIVILISED countries the protestors protest PEACEFULLY or at least do not use grenades and guns on people. If they did that in a civilised country like the States they military or police would immediately take them out with lethal force. YOU KNOW THIS so stop playing.

in civilised country the police is used not the army .

And the police dont bring M16 with live ammmos , sharpshooters

AA guns and APC .

Of course they do. If the terrorists have machine guns they are not going to send in swat armed with machine guns? You are so completely wrong.

In normal countries, not any government will make a genocide over protesters by stopping basic supplies as food and water, electricity for protesters but same time for other citizens in area. Will not make another Warsaw gheto, or something what looks like nazi concentration camps, as it is now.

Is that what government, Mr.Abhisit see as democracy?

What government expected will be rection of red shirts on cutting water and food for protesters?

It is provoking new violence, as response to government.

Genocide just looks like as heavy bolded word but that is very near the truth.

All goes way to be like Beirut or Belfast and it might be UN blue helmets will need to intervene and send international troops to Thailand as it is obvious this will be a civil war.

The matter of time when the red shirt will get long and heavy weapons to strike back so Thais will have guerilla very soon, as possible.

This becoming international problem.

Government have solution - to make elections on all levels right now and if you ask me-i don't see why they don't do it.

That could stop all killings for sure.

Same time, claiming Ubon Ratchatani, Maahasarakham and Roi-Et as potentially dangerous zone is nothing else then playing with matches.

Why these areas but not Chiang Mai, not Mukdahan, Nakhon Phanom?

What do they know about thise 3 areas?

The army could cover all of it?

[ozzieman05]

Anyone like to take a look and listen (in English) to what this Thai lady has to say about Thaksin

Although I agree with all she says

This is a Fake utube Video

1) her language is not typical thai, it typical Farang

2) Fuc_k is something Thais eat for breakfast not a descriptv word

3) this is the third video she has done i the last 12 months

As I said I agree with what she said but coming from a true Thai it makes a greater impact

[rogerx007]

Govt has asked protestors to move out from Rajraprasong 1 hour before 21-12-2012 .....

[dhrobertson]

http://img189.imageshack.us/i/dsc0126xz.jpg/

Take a look at this photo. Do these people look like criminals to you? Taken today.

I was told that the official line from the military is that it doesnt want to get caught up in some battle with these sort of people around. It could go very badly wrong especially if there are 'real trained' agitators in there. I mean it is possible that they might kill a couple of innocent bystanders to incite the crowd. Or maybe these 'real' terrorists are just thugs. If 50 of that crowd get killed then it will not look good.

No but these do people do

as do these people if we can call them that

can't you see. they just want Democracy

They already have it.

What would you recommend changing?

[earthpig]

Then I imagine that those people might end up on the wrong end of a bullet. "Better to be a live dog than a dead lion" just saying...

yes u are right. nobody should go to these places in this enviroment unless he is experienced or at least trained for such an enviroment.

[Jerrytheyoung]

Thailand pays dozens of years of mismanagement;

- No police Anti Riot Forces

- Militias non controlled

- Smuggling and circulation of weaponry non controlled

- Police not correctly organised

- Army (of conscripts) remains the only structure in order ....

- Most of politicians looking after short term interests of their immediate environment

- No vision for developing the Country, towns and rural areas

- No vision for balancing the different Classes in the Society

- Education system lagging years behind modern Countries

The condition for a Western style democracy are not fulfilled

This Crisis is a big revelation, but the main issue is: after this crisis, what will remain? Is the lesson being learnt?

[andrew55]

I thought "bulls.h.i.t" is official language of the forum ....

Is there a language thread about?

[rametindallas]

Anyone kows more about this?:

Just posted on another TV thread....

Red Shirt Leaders Willing to Negotiate Cease Fire

Nuthawut Saikua has announced that the red shirt leaders are now willing to negotiate a ceasefire with the government without any further conditions.

The DAAD has earlier demanded that an international organization mediate the peace talks, but after a strong refusal from the government, the red shirt leaders are now willing to talk under any and all circumstances.

-- Tan Network 2010-05-17

I think it would be more apt to say "Red Shirt Leaders Willing to Negotiate Surrender". They know what is coming.

Nathawut, how can you look the families of those you sacrificed in the eyes and say this was worth dying for?

Easy, he doesn't, he just looks at his bank account and sees those transfers from Dubai and Montenegro. It was all worth it to him, as long as he gets on a flight out. Then he won't have to think about those people again.

He won't get to spend any of it. It's frozen and likely to be confiscated in the end.

[earthpig]

if the red movement had the support that is in your head, there would be hundreds of thousands on the streets, not hundreds of drunken motorcycle taxi boys and a few para-military types firing rpg's at hotels.

you might ask yourself, on a strong coffee break from your cyberfantasy land, just why is it that the Thai army and police cant quite get things under control if the problem is merely "hundreds of drunken motorcycle taxi boys and a few para-military types".

turn off your netfan and open your eyes onto the real world.

guaranteed that what you find will surprise you.

[elcent]

Smoke-hel_l over Bangkok Rama 4...Reds probably intend to burn Lumpini Tower http://twitpic.com/1ojzfp /via @freakingcat

as I reported earlier people are evacuating the area since hours now. Most locals have no place to go. Many will be trapped inside the sois.

[Thai at Heart]

Anyone like to take a look and listen (in English) to what this Thai lady has to say about Thaksin

Although I agree with all she says

This is a Fake utube Video

1) her language is not typical thai, it typical Farang

2) Fuc_k is something Thais eat for breakfast not a descriptv word

3) this is the third video she has done i the last 12 months

As I said I agree with what she said but coming from a true Thai it makes a greater impact

a.She is speaking typical English. Believe it or not, there are some Thai's who speak quite good English even some fluently (sarcasm). That doesn't make them more or less Thai.

b. Indeed, swearing for effect doesn't help when trying to convey a serious message.

c. She obviously has a bee in her bonnet.

True Thai? A attitude like that is part of the reason we are at this impasse now.

If the media had done a better job of actually asking the rank and file protesters some questions instead of parroting the leaders all the time, we might have a much better idea of whether these people really care for a cause or are being duped.

I am sick of the Thai reporters asking:

"Where do you come from? Isaan, Up country,

"What do you do?" Noodle Stand, factory worker, nothing,

and stop before they ask genuinely

"Why are you here?"

There are almost no first hand accounts from anyone in the protest as to why they are there. People would of course claim people had been coached, but we have had to 2 months of rhetoric from the reds reports from the leaders mouths and almost nothing the rank and file people in the crowd to back up any of it.

Crap journalism.

[earthpig]

is this fantasy?

u tell me.

[TAWP]

Strange part is that anybody who's against violence is a RED now...

What on earth are you babbling about?

I want the protesters to stop using violence to force about their delusions on the silent majority.

Ergo I am against violence.

Ergo I am red, according to you? Clearly a logical fallacy or misrepresentation of the truth...

[GungaDin]

But I also know that 10 year old died because Thaksin wants to teach a lesson to those that threw him out.

actually, that boy, like the pregnant woman, died because a sniper's bullet pierced their abdomens causing massive blood loss.

the rest is just talk.

and im no supporter of thaksin.

Pig.

Do a little research on the circumstances of the boy's death.

It won't hurt you to do a little fact finding, or are you totally incompetent?

Do you know how to use the 'search' button?

[earthpig]

The whole point is that NOBODY can tell us what the reds actually want?

have u gone to ratchaprasong and asked them what they want?

no, im not suggesting you go right now.....

but had u gone when it was still possible, you would not be mystified.

[rogerx007]

Strange part is that anybody who's against violence is a RED now...

What on earth are you babbling about?

I want the protesters to stop using violence to force about their delusions on the silent majority.

Ergo I am against violence.

Ergo I am red, according to you? Clearly a logical fallacy or misrepresentation of the truth...

lol ... I haven't branded anybody red of yellow yet .... did u even read the complete post..

but wud u mind sharing the thing u been smoking ....

[Jerrytheyoung]

Oh, Jerry, why do you change the side? May 68 in France I was street-fighter with Daniel Cohn-Bendit (now leader of the Green group in the European Parliament) in Paris. You was mediator (when I believe your posting in another topic) for the other side. There was violence of both sides (old toxic teargas from Vietnam with chlorine, CRS troops got crazy, other police troops needed to calms them down---anarchist groups fought back.). The mediations were successful, you did a good job). But your "mediation" here is the work of an old man who lost the sense for reality.

Too many red supporters are old lefts wishing to recapture their youth.

Blinded by the image of a red banner, they end up embracing Thaksin's rotten fish head.

The role of the CP in '68 as now is as perfidious as ever.

I agree, some of them are like that. It is pitiful. Leftist politics in the west has NOTHING to do with the Thaksinista movement here.

Yes, I was a leftist, we fought against vietnam war, against nuclear plants. I know Joschka Fischer (as student a "revoluzzer", later one of the best Foreign Ministers we had in Germany), a Green, but we had a knowing about what we were fighting for. We stop a nuclear plant with wine-growers, they gave us one of the best wine in Germany, we had the best folk singers, we had scientists from the University of

Freiburg, but no weapons. Our weapons were clear facts. The riot police got jealous, we tried to make them drunken with good wine, good music and informations. The area we occupied was the land of the wine-growers, we protected their land against a nuclear plant.

You see the difference?

I have not changed: I continue to support the Northern Population in its demands. And, I continue to advocate Peace. I have learnt by experience than fuelling the extremes is counter productive so I try to maintain a decent level of discussions on this forum. Send me a message if you believe I have written something against and in what I have shocked you.

I was not involved in May 68 events but I have been a Unionist, involved in important strikes and negotiations. I have leaded actions and negotiations (20/25 years ago). Sure, I am not a right wing guy. and for Yoshiwara, I have never been a militant of the CP, the symbol of the Party I was involved is a rose.

Edited May 17, 2010 by Jerrytheyoung

[siampolee]

Just take the soldiers out and we are ready to talk. Want gov to bring in a mediator for talks (UN not acceptable)

The Red Shirt Brigade (mis) leadership at it again.

Do these imbeciles actually know what they want ?

Indeed a fine example of Thaksins puppet mastery at work.

the Red Shirt Brigade (mis) leadership have no intention of negotiating a peaceful settlement nor have they from the start of this affair.

The current crop of pictures certainly show a what a ''peaceful'' movement it is.

Led by thugs and morons who have constantly refused all offers that were put on the table, happy to indoctrinate their pawns to shed their blood for Thaksin and his money.

Edited May 17, 2010 by siampolee

[pornsasi]

Why no water cannons? There is enough dirty water in the khlongs of Bangkok. Instead of bullets. It's what civilized countries do.

Why do you only see one side so completely? In CIVILISED countries the protestors protest PEACEFULLY or at least do not use grenades and guns on people. If they did that in a civilised country like the States they military or police would immediately take them out with lethal force. YOU KNOW THIS so stop playing.

in civilised country the police is used not the army .

And the police dont bring M16 with live ammmos , sharpshooters

AA guns and APC .

Of course they do. If the terrorists have machine guns they are not going to send in swat armed with machine guns? You are so completely wrong.

First they are not terrorists

Second they dont have machine guns .

Third if they had machine guns you would see tens of soldiers killed

Please dont alter the truth . Thank you

PS : Or if they have machine guns they dont use them , which comes to the same

as not having them

Edited May 17, 2010 by pornsasi

[ozzieman05]

right or wrong

No one takes you serious here until you have at least 6 months membership under your belt

that’s about 50-100 posts

That's an awful lot of posting. in 6 years I haven't got that many. Personally, I think that anyone that spends a lot of their time posting on internet forums(i.e 5 a day or more) needs some kind of counseling. Not counting Admin. and Mods.

I wonder how long a lot of you posters have been in Thailand and know the value(or lack of) of life. How many really know the way that Thai politics works. I find it depressing to read all these opinions by people who haven't really a clue about any of it.

As you are returning to my post I will answer

Member since 2005

posting nearly 700

why TV, because I get more information than reading the Bangkok posting every morning

I first came to Thailand in 2004 and worked here for 4 years teaching and learning Thai culture as part of my job

Have a thai wife and lived in Issan for 2 years

also have a child that can talk in both English and thai

My wifes best friend teaches Political Science in University

I am a devote Buddhist

I am now waiting for you reasons why you feel you are better at understanding Thailand than I do

[otherstuff1957]

One factor that I haven't noticed anyone discussing (except in passing), is crowd psychology. While few would dispute that Thaksin funded and organized the Red movement (and those that would might as well stop reading know because your minds are closed to any conflicting ideas), the current movement has undoubtedly grown beyond that shady origin.

Humans are social animals. For hundreds of thousands of years, belonging to a group meant that you had a better chance of survival, a better chance of being fed, finding a mate, etc... This means that people usually feel comfortable and secure when they are members of a group. Anyone who has been a member of a group that had a common goal or ideal will probably remember their time with that group fondly. Military organizations know this quite well, they refer to it as esprit de corps, which is the reason why Issan conscripts will usually obey orders to attack the Reds!

For the past two months the people at Ratchaprasong have eaten together, slept together, sang and danced together, cheered and marched together and have fought together. These are powerfully unifying experiences. Even people who went to the protest for money may have been changed into true believers through this experience. Many of the people at Ratchaprasong are probably not knowledgeable about democracy and have no clear goals as to what their movement would accomplish, but they do know that they have power (a feeling that they have probably never had before) and that they are standing side by side with their comrades.

The Reds will probably being gone in a week or so. Some will go to the Wats to be cremated, some will go to jail and most will go back to their homes, either in BKK or in the provinces. But they will not forget this time and they may remain a potent political force, either with or hopefully without Thaksin.

[yoshiwara]

Oh, Jerry, why do you change the side? May 68 in France I was street-fighter with Daniel Cohn-Bendit (now leader of the Green group in the European Parliament) in Paris. You was mediator (when I believe your posting in another topic) for the other side. There was violence of both sides (old toxic teargas from Vietnam with chlorine, CRS troops got crazy, other police troops needed to calms them down---anarchist groups fought back.). The mediations were successful, you did a good job). But your "mediation" here is the work of an old man who lost the sense for reality.

Too many red supporters are old lefts wishing to recapture their youth.

Blinded by the image of a red banner, they end up embracing Thaksin's rotten fish head.

The role of the CP in '68 as now is as perfidious as ever.

I agree, some of them are like that. It is pitiful. Leftist politics in the west has NOTHING to do with the Thaksinista movement here.

Yes, I was a leftist, we fought against vietnam war, against nuclear plants. I know Joschka Fischer (as student a "revoluzzer", later one of the best Foreign Ministers we had in Germany), a Green, but we had a knowing about what we were fighting for. We stop a nuclear plant with wine-growers, they gave us one of the best wine in Germany, we had the best folk singers, we had scientists from the University of

Freiburg, but no weapons. Our weapons were clear facts. The riot police got jealous, we tried to make them drunken with good wine, good music and informations. The area we occupied was the land of the wine-growers, we protected their land against a nuclear plant.

You see the difference?

Unfortunately the latter-day wannabes following Thaksin are just neo-Peronist re-treads.

and Third Worldist petty-bourgeois adventurers.

Their support for the red thugs is mostly uncritical as well as unconditional.

Thaksin as the orchestral conductor an image to be desperately pushed aside.

Clear facts?

Yes, with truth on your side.

But in this battle just another piece of armoury.

[elcent]

The whole point is that NOBODY can tell us what the reds actually want?

have u gone to ratchaprasong and asked them what they want?

no, im not suggesting you go right now.....

but had u gone when it was still possible, you would not be mystified.

oh yeah? are these the ones who want a fair selection? Heil Thakki!

Sorry to say, but there was never a proposal coming from the reds apart from demanding the impossible.

[agord]

Please use your head. If soldiers were opening up on the reds with M16s ... you would see a lot more dead than 24 ... and aren't a couple of the dead now being reported to be soldiers?

If it turns out that any of them died to injuries sustained from slingshots I will instantly retract my previous statement. Naturally, all armed enemy combatants are fair play in my book. I just feel I could actually do more damage with my bare hands than with one of the most primitive projectile weapons on the planet so I would not consider it any more armed than, say, someone wielding a stick. Granted that walking around a live fire zone while swinging a stick around isn't the smartest idea either. You certainly won't catch me doing that.

I know what you're trying to say, that it is unfair. But the whole theme of military training is to be unfair; to have better weapons, tactics, training and intelligence, and how to use them to your advantage. This isn't a game of cards, it's bet your life.

Old, old saying: don't bring a knife to a gunfight; or a slingshot, or a stick. Add another "People willing to die, die just as easy" (apologies to Stormin' Norman)

Exactly true. Trained killers kill. Which is why the military should never have been brought into a civil disobedience conflict that was very peaceful before they arrived. The military is just doing their job - killing; it is not their fault. The blame rests with the poor decisions of Abhisit, a very weak leader indeed.

who should have been brought in to deal with them then? or should they just be allowed to stay there indefinetly? peaceful my arse and blame would lie with the cause not the affect.

[earthpig]

You are right, there are many other forces at work and the situation is far more complex than most would care to investigate or know. However, the crux of a lot of the hatred and polarization is due to the fact that a "democracy"/rising of the oppressed revolution or movement being led by Thaksin just becomes an oxymoron to so many.

you are so right.

the man is one of the most cynical human beings i have ever come across.

but he is also a political genius for he tapped a political gold mine by pandering to the agrarian masses.

truth demands acknowledging the whole picture.

[ozzieman05]

The whole point is that NOBODY can tell us what the reds actually want?

have u gone to ratchaprasong and asked them what they want?

no, im not suggesting you go right now.....

but had u gone when it was still possible, you would not be mystified.

Can you please make an appointment with the PM

we all need your smart brain

Even the red shirt leaders do not know what they want

with your help all will be over by tommorrow

[Jingthing]

The Reds will probably being gone in a week or so. Some will go to the Wats to be cremated, some will go to jail and most will go back to their homes, either in BKK or in the provinces. But they will not forget this time and they may remain a potent political force, either with or hopefully without Thaksin.

Favoring what exactly? More violent insurgency to help a billionaire? Most of these people have NO CLUE about politics and democracy. They have been totally manipulated and they seem to like it that way.

Edited May 17, 2010 by Jingthing

[TAWP]

Why would the red shirts shoot an RPG at an hotel ?

The shooting of journalists , reporters and foreigners is a government specialty

check the facts

If the red had RPGs they would retaliate against those shooting them

not against an hotel populated by farangs .

The Reds shot at the hotel since there was rumors that soldiers was there.

Rumors spread quickly in yaabaa-heads.

And you both manage to deny and defend the action in one post...congratulations for officially supporting terrorism. Want a medal?

[Mekhong]

right or wrong

No one takes you serious here until you have at least 6 months membership under your belt

that's about 50-100 posts

That's an awful lot of posting. in 6 years I haven't got that many. Personally, I think that anyone that spends a lot of their time posting on internet forums(i.e 5 a day or more) needs some kind of counseling. Not counting Admin. and Mods.

I wonder how long a lot of you posters have been in Thailand and know the value(or lack of) of life. How many really know the way that Thai politics works. I find it depressing to read all these opinions by people who haven't really a clue about any of it.

As you are returning to my post I will answer

Member since 2005

posting nearly 700

why TV, because I get more information than reading the Bangkok posting every morning

I first came to Thailand in 2004 and worked here for 4 years teaching and learning Thai culture as part of my job

Have a thai wife and lived in Issan for 2 years

also have a child that can talk in both English and thai

My wifes best friend teaches Political Science in University

I am a devote Buddhist

I am now waiting for you reasons why you feel you are better at understanding Thailand than I do

With all respect mate, I don't quite follow how your having a kid that can talk in both English and Thai enhances your understanding of Thailand