How Do You Spell The Word For 'go'?

[ianwuk]

Hello.

I am trying to learn Thai and I always thought that to spell the word 'Go' it is 'bai'.

It even says so in a Thai book that I have yet my girlfriend today told me it is spelt 'pai'.

Which is correct?

Thanks.

ianwuk

[angiud]

pai

[Atmos]

hi

just to add to the mix; the book I got on my Thai language course spells it 'bpai'

but my favourite, a well-worn one from 1989 has 'pai'

for the number eight/8 i have options of 'bpaed' or 'paet'

I don't think there is an exact way of writing Thai words in English?

Happy to be corrected, but there is little consistency in basic signage let alone sentences. We are just back from touring Chanthaburi and Trat, the variations between my two Thai/English maps were a warning, then we'd find a third or fourth option on the actual town signs.

Makes life interesting.

[Tywais]

hi

just to add to the mix; the book I got on my Thai language course spells it 'bpai'

That's the most common spelling that I've seen and that I use due to it not being a "p" or "b" sound but a combination when using ป.

//edit - just checked that Thai2English also uses bpai.

[anchan42]

Neither. English has b and p. They are voiced and unvoiced labial plosive (puff of air controlled by the lips) consonant sounds. There are two versions of /p/ in English, aspirated like in the word "pen" and unaspirated like in the word "sport".

However in English they are not the sounds that change the meanings of utterances but in Thai they are.Most English speakers have difficulty perceive them as different sounds.

/bai/ would be ใบ which means "leaf"

/pai/ would be ไพ I don't know what this one means on it own.

the word for go is ไป which is unaspirated sound and is completely different from the two above.

IPA (international phonetic alphabet) speaking;

บ = b

พ = p^h (h for the aspiration)

ป = p

IMHO drop the roman alphabet representation and go for Thai alphabet if you are serious about leaning Thai properly.

Edited May 16, 2010 by anchan42

[meadish_sweetball]

Anchan explains it well.

The first consonant sound in ไป (=go) does not occur in that position in English words.

However, if you say 'spy' the 'p' is unaspirated (aspirated means 'has a puff of air after it') but that is because the 'p' sound is proceeded by an 's' sound, it happens automatically and English speakers do not think that there is a difference between the 'p' sounds in 'pie' and 'spy' until somebody points it out and makes them hear it. If you say 'pie' then the 'p' sound is aspirated.

You may be able to hear the difference if you say 'spy' and 'pie' out loud to yourself a few times. Try not to look at any text and don't visualize any letters in your head, just listen to the sounds you are making, and focus on what goes on in connection with the 'p' in each word.

A fairly large number of native English speakers pronounce ไป (=go) as if it were ใบ (=leaf) when they speak Thai, because when they hear it, they associate it with the closest sound they have available in their own language, which happens to be 'b'.

But as anchan says, to a Thai ear ใบ (=leaf) is distinctly different, and means 'leaf'. If you have a native Thai speaker pronounce the two words after each other you should be able to hear that there is a different quality to the sound in ไป (=go) (the correct phonetic terms are 'voiced' and 'non-voiced' (voiced means your glottis is vibrating as you say the sound, non-voiced means your glottis is not vibrating).

Avoiding phonetic terms, I would classify the sound in ไป (=go) as 'harder' than the sound in ใบ (=leaf).

[mangkorn]

This should be required reading for all foreign tourists who go to hang out in ปาย

Pound-for-pound, a top contender for most often mispronounced Thai place name.

[ianwuk]

Thanks for all the advice everyone

I have another question if I may.

I was practicing Thai with my girlfriend today and I said the following:

Agart mai dee pro wah lon mak khab. Mee lum khab.

I think that translates to 'I do not like the weather because it is hot. I have an umbrella' but my girlfriend corrected me and said that you do not say 'mee lum' and she told me what to say but I have forgotten it.

Does anyone know what she meant?

I also told her that I had cleaned my apartment and she told me that to say that is 'Tam krang sa ed'.

I know that 'Tam' means do and sa ed means clean but what does krang mean?

Thanks.

ianwuk

PS - I am sorry I cannot change the thread title.

Edited May 19, 2010 by ianwuk

[farangnahrak]

As previous posters already said, ไป starts with neither b nor p. The best transliteration would be bp.

ป makes what is called a 'double consonant' sound. To make the sound, try to make the 'b' sound but curl in your lips a bit while doing it.

Another double consonant in Thai is ต. Its usually transliterated as 't', but it doesn't make the t sound. The proper transliteration would be 'dt'. To make the sound, try to make the 'd' sound but start with your tongue between your teeth.

Transliterating without double consonants is like transliterating without marking tones.

You can find a 'good enough' explanation here, explaining dipthongs. Dipthongs are double vowels, buts its basically the same concept:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diphthong

[Xangsamhua]

N/pai/ would be ไพ I don't know what this one means on it own.

I was curious, so looked it up. ไพ means "pi", as in 3.14159265

[ianwuk]

Can anyone answer my other questions or is it best to post a new thread?

Thanks.

ianwuk

[HappyInCM]

Can anyone answer my other questions or is it best to post a new thread?

Thanks.

ianwuk

could she have said khwaam? as in ทำความสะอาด tam khwaam sa-aat? as in to make it clean? there are some threads on here about what khwaam does to verbs e.g.,: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Suffix-Thai-...ss-t363617.html

[ianwuk]

Hello.

What does 'khwaam' mean in English?

Thanks for the help.

ianwuk

[anchan42]

Hello.

What does 'khwaam' mean in English?

Thanks for the help.

ianwuk

ความ turns adverb or adjective to noun.

สะอาด = clean

ความสะอาด = cleanliness

[anchan42]

N/pai/ would be ไพ I don't know what this one means on it own.

I was curious, so looked it up. ไพ means "pi", as in 3.14159265

Interresting :D

However,most people pronounce pi พาย ie with long vowel.

Edited May 19, 2010 by anchan42

[anchan42]

As previous posters already said, ไป starts with neither b nor p. The best transliteration would be bp.

ป makes what is called a 'double consonant' sound. To make the sound, try to make the 'b' sound but curl in your lips a bit while doing it.

Another double consonant in Thai is ต. Its usually transliterated as 't', but it doesn't make the t sound. The proper transliteration would be 'dt'. To make the sound, try to make the 'd' sound but start with your tongue between your teeth.

Transliterating without double consonants is like transliterating without marking tones.

You can find a 'good enough' explanation here, explaining dipthongs. Dipthongs are double vowels, buts its basically the same concept:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diphthong

I have to disagree. Double consonants do not exist in Thai nor in English. There are some languages that the lengths of the consonant sounds make them different sounds. For example in such language “pen” with long p and “pen” with short p are two different words.

The different of /b/, /p/ and /ph/ is not how you configure your mouth and lips but the timing when the vocal cord start to vibrate.

/b/ or บ the vocal cord start vibrate before the lips parted.

/ph/ or พ There is a short puff of air after the lips parted and the vocal cord start vibrate for the vowel sound.

/p/ or ป the vocal cord start vibrate immediately after the lips parted.

[Peppy]

I was practicing Thai with my girlfriend today and I said the following:

Agart mai dee pro wah lon mak khab. Mee lum khab.

I think that translates to 'I do not like the weather because it is hot. I have an umbrella' but my girlfriend corrected me and said that you do not say 'mee lum' and she told me what to say but I have forgotten it.

Does anyone know what she meant?

I also told her that I had cleaned my apartment and she told me that to say that is 'Tam krang sa ed'.

"Aa-ghaat mai dee proh wah rawn maak khrap" is roughly, "The weather/air isn't very good because it's so hot."

By "lum" I think you mean "rom" (with a very short 'oe' sound)--umbrella. If you want to specify that it's for protecting you from the sun, you can say "rom ghan daaet" literally, "umbrella-protect against-sunlight"--that is, a parasol.

By 'tam krang sa ed' I think you mean "tam khwaam sa-aat" literally 'make cleanliness' ("sa-aat" means "clean" (adj.) and "khwaam" makes it a noun--"cleanliness"). This idiomatic phrase is the same as the verb "to clean" in English. For clarity, you might want to say "tam khwaam sa-aat hawng"--"(I) clean(ed) (my) room/apartment."

Regarding the spelling of Thai words in English: As you may have gathered from the pai/bai/pbai/bpai debate, there is no standard way to write Thai using the Roman alphabet, and there are a fair number of sounds in Thai that do not exist in English, so transliteration can be very misleading as to what the actual word sounds like. If you really want to learn Thai, your best bet is to learn the Thai alphabet, and practice the sounds of each letter with a native Thai speaker. When I first came here seven years ago, I used "Easy Thai" by Gordon H. Allison (still available in many bookshops, I think), but there are plenty of other books and free materials online to pick and choose from. It took me about three weeks of one hour a day self study to learn all the letters and the various rules for putting them together, but I imagine it could be done quicker with a bit of diligence. After you've learned the alphabet, all that's left is familiarizing yourself with vocabulary and grammatical constructions*, and you'll be well on your way to being fluent.

*Note that this part (learning the vocab and grammar) may take several years (heck, I'm still learning after seven!), but you will succeed, whereas its nearly impossible to learn Thai well without learning to read and write (and pronounce the sounds correctly!) first.

[ianwuk]

I was practicing Thai with my girlfriend today and I said the following:

Agart mai dee pro wah lon mak khab. Mee lum khab.

I think that translates to 'I do not like the weather because it is hot. I have an umbrella' but my girlfriend corrected me and said that you do not say 'mee lum' and she told me what to say but I have forgotten it.

Does anyone know what she meant?

I also told her that I had cleaned my apartment and she told me that to say that is 'Tam krang sa ed'.

"Aa-ghaat mai dee proh wah rawn maak khrap" is roughly, "The weather/air isn't very good because it's so hot."

By "lum" I think you mean "rom" (with a very short 'oe' sound)--umbrella. If you want to specify that it's for protecting you from the sun, you can say "rom ghan daaet" literally, "umbrella-protect against-sunlight"--that is, a parasol.

By 'tam krang sa ed' I think you mean "tam khwaam sa-aat" literally 'make cleanliness' ("sa-aat" means "clean" (adj.) and "khwaam" makes it a noun--"cleanliness"). This idiomatic phrase is the same as the verb "to clean" in English. For clarity, you might want to say "tam khwaam sa-aat hawng"--"(I) clean(ed) (my) room/apartment."

Regarding the spelling of Thai words in English: As you may have gathered from the pai/bai/pbai/bpai debate, there is no standard way to write Thai using the Roman alphabet, and there are a fair number of sounds in Thai that do not exist in English, so transliteration can be very misleading as to what the actual word sounds like. If you really want to learn Thai, your best bet is to learn the Thai alphabet, and practice the sounds of each letter with a native Thai speaker. When I first came here seven years ago, I used "Easy Thai" by Gordon H. Allison (still available in many bookshops, I think), but there are plenty of other books and free materials online to pick and choose from. It took me about three weeks of one hour a day self study to learn all the letters and the various rules for putting them together, but I imagine it could be done quicker with a bit of diligence. After you've learned the alphabet, all that's left is familiarizing yourself with vocabulary and grammatical constructions*, and you'll be well on your way to being fluent.

*Note that this part (learning the vocab and grammar) may take several years (heck, I'm still learning after seven!), but you will succeed, whereas its nearly impossible to learn Thai well without learning to read and write (and pronounce the sounds correctly!) first.

Thanks very much. That was very helpful.

I have another question though (sorry!). How do you say 'Can I' in Thai? Is it 'dai mai'?

Thanks.

ianwuk

[Peppy]

How do you say 'Can I' in Thai? Is it 'dai mai'?

Generally, yes, but it depends on what you're asking.

"Can I swim?" as in "Is it ok if I swim?" would be "phom waai-naam dai mai."

"Can I have", though, in the sense of asking for something, as in "Can I have a look?" or "Can I have a cigarette?" would use "khaw" (with a rising tone, kind of as if there's a question mark attached to the syllable: khaw?) in front: "khaw duu noy dai mai" and "khaw bu-rii noy dai mai", respectively. (The "noy" just makes the request more polite--literally, "noy" means "a little", as in "nit noy".)

When ordering in restaurants though, don't use "dai mai": Just "khaw" will do, as in "khaw haem-ber-gher"--"Can I have a hamburger? (I'd like a hamburger.)" You can also use "ow" (sounds like what you say when you hurt yourself, but in a monotone), though it's a little more abrupt, and somewhat less formal: "ow haem-ber-gher"--"I'll have the hamburger."

"Dai mai" can also mean "can you?" depending on context: "maa nii noy dai mai"--"Can you come here for a minute?", but if you want to ask about ability, use "bpen mai": "Can you swim?"--"Khun waai-naam bpen mai", "Can you drive?"--"Khun khap rot bpen mai".

Don't forget to add "khrap"! (And get on with learning how to read and write: with every word you learn by transliteration, while you're increasing your ability to communicate at a certain level, you're also reinforcing bad pronunciation habits that you may come to regret in the future, because there's no way you're going to be saying the above phrases correctly just by reading the transliteration. Here's a little story:

When I first arrived in Thailand, I bought the Lonely Planet Thai Phrasebook. If I remember correctly, the book's rendition of the phrase for "thank you" was "khawb khun khrab". I thought "khawb" ought to be the same as "cob" (like a cob of corn), "khun" ought to rhyme with "bun" (like a hot-dog bun), and "khrab" ought to be pronounced the same as "crab" (the thing with claws). So I went around saying it like that for my first two days in Bangkok, wondering why I was getting funny looks whenever I tried to thank anyone, until finally some kind and clever soul realized what I was trying to say and taught me how to pronounce it properly. It was then that I realized that transliteration was next to useless, and that I'd have to either learn all my vocabulary orally, or learn how to read and write if I wanted to write anything down or learn from printed materials.)

[ianwuk]

Thanks again for all of this

Can you recommend me any decent books or computer software to help me learn Thai?

I have also heard that listening to Thai music helps, do you have any suggestions regarding that?

Thanks very much.

ianwuk

[PhilHarries]

The problem with phonetics as you've discovered, and others have probably pointed out (sorry I didn't read all the replies right through), is that there are several different systems. I used to work in the village of Ao Udom just outside Sriracha and one day I counted up the different spellings of the place name. There were seven in all and these were all on official signs like road names, official buildings etc.

Just look at Suvarnabhumi (Suwannapoom), and all those years we flew into Don Muang and now they've slipped an 'e' into it (can't recall where-between the m and the u).

Phonetics is useful in learning the language to a point but, as pointed out, if you are really serious you've got to learn to read it. Phonetics are only an attempt to create the same sounds using a different set of, limited, characters and at best it's an approximation.

That was my nemesis, reading the stuff. Was just too complicated for this knackered old brain.

Good luck with the learning, best way is to persuade your gf to speak only Thai on odd days. You soon learn, or go hungry.

[SeanS]

http://www.thai-language.com/dict/

go here for to learn and hear Thai words and phrases

and it is FREE.

[Atmos]

simply to say thanks to the posters here; if you ever wonder if anyone reads your contributions -

thought I was a 'language person' with French and German, and a million years ago Latin through high school; consider myself a failure with Thai, and I do value your posts.

One day . . .

[ianwuk]

Hello.

I tried that site Sean S.

I typed in 'hello' and it came up with 'bpai'.

I assume I am doing something wrong.

ianwuk

[Peppy]

Can you recommend me any decent books or computer software to help me learn Thai?

I have also heard that listening to Thai music helps, do you have any suggestions regarding that?

There are plenty of links to online materials of varying quality in the pinned "Online Dictionaries & Thai Language Resources" thread: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Online-Dicti...age-t64769.html

As I mentioned earlier, the first book I used in my studies was Easy Thai. It's a bit old (first published in 1969) but I found it extremely well-written, and it worked very well for me. It won't help you with speaking or vocabulary very much at all, but it does teach you how to read and write. http://www.amazon.com/Easy-Thai-Introducti...e/dp/0804801592 Preview available at Google Books: http://books.google.com/books?id=YRulbpJll...p;q&f=false

After finishing Easy Thai, I used Thai For Beginners by Benjawan Poomsan Becker. It gives you plenty of useful vocabulary, more writing practice, and a much more detailed explanation of what combinations of what characters make what tones. It's also perhaps the most popular book for Thai learners. http://www.amazon.com/Thai-Beginners-Benja...r/dp/1887521003

From there, I moved on to Teach Yourself Thai by David Smyth. It's aimed at beginners, but I found it quite challenging even after completing the two books above. I wouldn't recommend it as your first book, but it's excellent for an upper-level beginner, with lots of useful conversations to practice your reading skills with, and by far the simplest method for memorizing what groups of letters make what tone (just a simple little chart, but if you remember it, you'll always know what tone each syllable is supposed to be). http://www.amazon.com/Teach-Yourself-Thai-...s/dp/0340860472

After going through these books, I started with the next two books by Benjawan Poomsan Becker: Thai For Intermediate Learners and Thai For Advanced Readers. I found the intermediate book rather too easy at that point, but the advanced level book has a good collection of simple essays and miscallaney to practice reading. However, if you get this far, you'll probably find you can read stuff aimed at Thais well enough and don't need to rely on books produced for foreigners. I found reading the newspaper, looking up any word I didn't know (which was practically every other word) in the dictionary and writing it down in a notebook did wonders for my vocabulary. I suppose I'm getting ahead of myself here, since you probably won't be reading the papers right away, but give yourself a year (actually, probably more like five months if you study daily; I had a lot of 'I don't feel like studying right now' periods that lasted from a few days to a month, and it took me a year) to get through the books above, and you will be.

As for music, see the thread "If you know five songs in the language, you know the language" http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/5-Songs-Lang...ag-t361313.html for a good debate on the merits of learning through songs, and some recommendations for bands/singers to listen to. Post #10 by tod-daniels is especially useful.

[Tod Daniels]

Me thinks with engrish transcription/transliteration like this;

"Agart mai dee pro wah lon mak khab. Mee lum khab" the O/P should possibly and learn to differentiate an 'L' (ล) from an 'R' (ร) is spoken thai. This is NOT to denigrate him but point out how important learning to read thai is to overall pronunciation. I can have a thai tell me a word 15 times, but until I see it spelled out in thai, I often mis-hear and mis-remember it too.

FWIW: I am NO fan of rolling my R's when speaking thai (as it always ends up sounding like a pretentious wanna-b hi-so thai ). Often depending on my audience and for the sake of clarity I let the R sound a little 'L-ish' , but if I hafta talk to someone I don't know at all, or talk about anything to anyone in an official capacity, I do my best to enunciate as clearly as I can.

Thais are one frickin' racist group of people when it comes to pronunciation and/or regional accents. I can't even begin to count the times I've sat with a group of thais, and when someone left the table their accent and or pronunciation was ridiculed, even though during the conversation nothing was said.

I think the O/P has realized that spelling any word in thai in with the english alphabet or even beginning to argue about how to spell it is a GIANT time waster right outta the proverbial gate.

I also concur, the O/P should teach himself to read thai as fast as he possibly can.

[sarahsbloke]

Buy, go

Buy lery, go away (forever)

Buy gan teh, let's go

ok buy, go out

teh ok buy, kick them out

The 'b' is pronounced without expelling air from the mouth, hence the common 'bp' spelling.

Agart mai dee prowah ron mak kap.

weather no good because hot very thanks

Edited May 24, 2010 by sarahsbloke

[ianwuk]

Thanks everyone.

I have another question.

I have really been trying to learn Thai recently and I find that writing things down helps me to remember. I also learn better with things in lists.

For example, so far I have learnt the following:

Telling the time

Days of the week

Colours

Months of the year

Members of the family

Rooms in the house

Transport

Directions

Parts of the body

What else can I learn that can be put into list form?

Please give me suggestions.

Thanks.

ianwuk

[meadish_sweetball]

Countries

National epithets (formal and colloquial)

Basic adjectival opposites (such as hot/cold, tall/short, far/near, good/bad)

Furniture/objects around the house

Tools

Animals

Spices/condiments

Fruits

Vehicles

Professions

Clothes

Ordering food

Religions

[farangnahrak]

Thais are one frickin' racist group of people when it comes to pronunciation and/or regional accents. I can't even begin to count the times I've sat with a group of thais, and when someone left the table their accent and or pronunciation was ridiculed, even though during the conversation nothing was said.

Don't get me started . . . about 85% of Bangkok Thais look down on me when I show interest in learning Isaan Thai.

When I go to Nahkorn Nowhere and someone asks me 'Wow how did you learn to speak such great Thai?', I just reply 'because I'm from Bangkok'. You should see their reaction

That said, learning a language is a never ending process. Sure, you might have learned the names of each animal like bird, snake, or rabbit . . . but what about sub-names? Cobra, python, viper, rattlesnake, serpent, sidewinder, boa constrictor, anaconda, corn snake . . . the list goes on. Its kinda like a tree where you start at the top and the main branches . . . and for every branch you learn, theres a hundred more sub-words to learn.