Thailand Under Intense Pressure To End This Chaos

[MekhongKurt]

If the PM does not crush the rebellion he will be criticized. If he does he will be vilified. He is in a no-win situation.

I'm glad we have such a good man in charge at a time like this. Look at some of the past PMs. Who knows what kind of bonehead will replace him?

Since I'm a foreigner, I don't feel I should comment on individuals on any side, nor to offer any proposals to solve the problems facing Thailand now.

However, as a friendly who cares about the Thai people, and the nation, I will say I hope this situation gets resolved very soon, and resolved to everyone's satisfaction.

My best wishes to all Thais.

[Neilly]

Actually, I always said that I prefer the current government to stay in power and I always supported the PM. I support him even more now after seeing how he has handled this. However, I also felt - and still feel - that the redshirts have some legitimate grievances and these need to be addressed if the country is going to move forward.

The spiteful, poison pen red-haters seem to think that anyone who does not rant and rave about them is a redshirt supporter, but some of us have sympathy for their problems while realizing that the leaders are mostly crooks. I live in Chiang Mai and many of these people are my neighbors and most of them are not bad people. They just want a chance to improve their lives.

They made their point several weeks ago and could have had a real chance at a strong voice in Thai politics, but they blew it when they turned down the PM's generous peace deal and now everyone is paying for their leader's stubbornness.

I hope there is some way to salvage some kind of solution, but it is time for them to admit their mistake and give up fighting. They were so close to really accomplishing something important , but they rejected ending this peacefully, so no cigar.

Good post...some good points made

[Neilly]

If the PM does not crush the rebellion he will be criticized. If he does he will be vilified. He is in a no-win situation.

I'm glad we have such a good man in charge at a time like this. Look at some of the past PMs. Who knows what kind of bonehead will replace him?

The whole world is saying he is incompetent and useless have they all got it wrong?

I've been watching the world news for weeks now and haven't heard this once...?

[somo]

If the PM does not crush the rebellion he will be criticized. If he does he will be vilified. He is in a no-win situation.

I'm glad we have such a good man in charge at a time like this. Look at some of the past PMs. Who knows what kind of bonehead will replace him?

But is crushing the rebellion really an option at all?

I mean, if this crisis proved anything, it's that the Thai army, once feared by all, actually has feet of clay. Their actions since April 10 mostly exposed mixed loyalties, lack of resolve, training and equipment, and even their numbers don't seem sufficient for the matter at hand. Nobody's been counting, but from all reports it doesn't sound like the 32000 men promised by Anupong are accounted for. 32000 trained men could just steamroll the 5000 protesters, armed or unarmed, in a matter of minutes and without even having to use live fire.

I bet most generals in the neighbouring countries are watching this with interest.

I agree. The lack of training (they have most of the flashy equipment) and discipline in the army means they are ineffective and why they have had to resort to live rounds and killing their own people. This has understandibly angered a lot of people who are resorting to more desperate measures.30,000 soldiers against 5,000 civlians should be a no contest without the need for live amunition. Instead we now risk the real possibility af Bangkok burning to the ground. The fire services like the army would not be able to cope with multiple arson.

This lack of training is a result, I feel, of the thai preference for style over substance. They have all the flash equipment like riot shields,batons and tear gas but just don't know how to use them.

[J*ames Arthur]

If the PM does not crush the rebellion he will be criticized. If he does he will be vilified. He is in a no-win situation.

I'm glad we have such a good man in charge at a time like this. Look at some of the past PMs. Who knows what kind of bonehead will replace him?

The whole world is saying he is incompetent and useless have they all got it wrong?

I've been watching the world news for weeks now and haven't heard this once...?

Well said. My sentiments entirely.

[J*ames Arthur]

it's sad when intelligent people are blinded by their own indulgence... I'll post this again... those reading the posts here, and who believe military intervention is the solution, need pay close attention to this video.

I'm not asking the military to crack down. I want the red shirts to go home and think about what their Grievances ARE. not what they think the solution should be.

Loss of life is bad, absolutly, but the red's aren't the only ones dying, random civilians trying to go about life as normal have been wounded. People have been injured and killed in grenade attacks around the city.

You post a video saying the military has shot a red shirt (or at least Imply it.)

I'm referencing the Grenades being lobbed at the BTS from Lumpini park that killed a woman and wounded several others.

Neither of us can point to the culprit of either and say "Them" with certainty but we have our proof.

All loss of life is utterly unacceptable but so is letting a city be held hostage by a group of moody children.

I want the reds to go home, Think about what their grievances are. Not tell me to follow their solution, not to demand the government follow their solution.

Bring a grievance and have it discussed, protest it peacefully in the area which was designated as okay.

Shutting down a large segment of the city is not okay.

Fortifying yourself into an encampment is not okay.

Searching people who want to visit/go home/go about their lives is not okay.

Comparing the Red shirts and Yellow shirt protests is POINTLESS, we can NOT go back in time.

We can't tell the current government to act just like the old government, there's a reason the old government was not voted back in.

Just because I want the reds to go home does not mean I supported the Yellow shirts and their invasion of the airport, But it's done. It happened most everyone realises thinks it was a bad Idea. We have lived through the occurences of having a mob roam the streets and take over buildings and muck around. We have had enough.

Couldn't have put it more succinctly myself - well said.

[mommysboy]

The issue to resolve the main issue is very much in the hands of the military.

They have chosen to do nothing much!

Wonder why?

[drnoel]

if nobody would flame me for my 2 cents,i think the PM is a goner...no matter what the outcome is...

[ETatBKK]

[i agree. The lack of training (they have most of the flashy equipment) and discipline in the army means they are ineffective and why they have had to resort to live rounds and killing their own people. This has understandibly angered a lot of people who are resorting to more desperate measures.30,000 soldiers against 5,000 civlians should be a no contest without the need for live amunition. Instead we now risk the real possibility af Bangkok burning to the ground. The fire services like the army would not be able to cope with multiple arson.

This lack of training is a result, I feel, of the thai preference for style over substance. They have all the flash equipment like riot shields,batons and tear gas but just don't know how to use them.

too bad, it is Thailand ! same apply to the police force as well. Thai soldiers are not well equipped neither, they launch tear gas without a mask for themselves :-(

this is exactly I posted earlier, now it is like a healing a wound with a blunt knife. it induces big pain upfront, but some how it may help.

[Democrat]

I have been following this very closely. What concessions have the Govt made?

How about moving the election to Novermber 15? It was rejected.

Read my previous post again: Nov 15 This concession was offered with many conditions attached. A roadmap to uniting Thailand was and still is a great idea, but posting conditions after the many delays, defaults of court cases on one side ,and the speeding up of cases on another side. Even you would have to agree it is sceptical Nov15 would happen.

[citizen33]

The international reaction mentioned in the opening article chiefly concerns the facts that the army has shot too many protesters who were not posing an imminent threat to life, and that film of this has been broadcast into living rooms around the world. Posters here choose to ignore this simple truth. It does not matter that a minority of redshirts have firearms. People look at the balance of casualties between civilians and military and draw the obvious conclusion about who is doing most of the shooting. Yes, the redshirts should have accepted a compromise. Yes, their leaders are a motley crew. Yes, there was a period when Aphisit did exercise restraint. On the evening of April 9th he did not, and in the last week he has allowed further breaches of international standards on the use of force. Of course, there has been a negative international reaction and he is losing the battle for hearts and minds.

Edited May 18, 2010 by citizen33

[tracymeaw]

How can a ceasefire with criminals been considered? They need to be arrested and brought to court, not given sweet deals on top of the millions they've already been paid.

You're right; this illegitimate government should be removed immediately!

[Wuffy]

I have been following this very closely. What concessions have the Govt made?

How about moving the election to Novermber 15? It was rejected.

Read my previous post again: Nov 15 This concession was offered with many conditions attached. A roadmap to uniting Thailand was and still is a great idea, but posting conditions after the many delays, defaults of court cases on one side ,and the speeding up of cases on another side. Even you would have to agree it is sceptical Nov15 would happen.

com·pro·mise [kom-pruh-mahyz] –noun

1.a settlement of differences by mutual concessions; an agreement reached by adjustment of conflicting or opposing claims, principles, etc., by reciprocal modification of demands.

2.the result of such a settlement.

3.something intermediate between different things: The split-level is a compromise between a ranch house and a multistoried house.

4.an endangering, esp. of reputation; exposure to danger, suspicion, etc.: a compromise of one's integrity. –verb (used with object)

5.to settle by a compromise.

6.to expose or make vulnerable to danger, suspicion, scandal, etc.; jeopardize: a military oversight that compromised the nation's defenses.

7.Obsolete. a.to bind by bargain or agreement. b.to bring to terms. –verb (used without object)

8.to make a compromise or compromises: The conflicting parties agreed to compromise.

9.to make a dishonorable or shameful concession: He is too honorable to compromise with his principles.

In short:

One side asks for something, the other agrees if first side also does something in return. Or is met halfway on the demand.

The government has tried to make deals and compromise.

Of course they want conditions.

Their conditions were; Leave the city, Give enough time for Politicians to choose candidates and run campaigns, Join us in correcting the constitution.

On the other hand Red shirts demand demand demand, Heck the first time they were asked to come negotiate, they said they would negotiate AFTER their demands were met, and you are skeptical of the government?

edit: Formating

Edited May 18, 2010 by Wuffy

[BNZ]

 You're right; this illegitimate government should be removed immediately!

Ha ha ha ha ha are we back to flogging that overt lie again ? 

Ha ha ha ha ha ooops  ..my ass fell off

[tracymeaw]

Many people have a real problem when an unelected government forces its way into power through illegal manipulation of the very processes that were supposedly put in place to protect it. Abhisit should have dissolved parliament, stepped down as PM, and called for elections long ago… to preserve democracy. Instead, he has spent his entire term fighting against democracy, not for it. An illegitimate government with blood on its hands violates its published rules of engagement and now threatens innocent protestors with prison terms and/or the threat of death if they do not comply with their wishes. The government has succeeded only in preserving its illegitimacy.

The last thing this so called democratic government seems to want is an election… they believe they will lose. What they do seem to want is to hold onto power long enough to install their handpicked Army representatives to facilitate a future coup (pending next election results… which will most likely not be in their favor) and derail any chance for a democratic process...again.

The government swiftly rejects UN mediation to help resolve this crisis because if the UN were to get involved then the truth would be even more apparent…. that it isn’t Abhisit making the decisions to begin with.

The truth is out there, it’s just banned in Thailand!

[yoshiwara]

Many people have a real problem when an unelected government forces its way into power through illegal manipulation of the very processes that were supposedly put in place to protect it. Abhisit should have dissolved parliament, stepped down as PM, and called for elections long ago… to preserve democracy. Instead, he has spent his entire term fighting against democracy, not for it. An illegitimate government with blood on its hands violates its published rules of engagement and now threatens innocent protestors with prison terms and/or the threat of death if they do not comply with their wishes. The government has succeeded only in preserving its illegitimacy.

The last thing this so called democratic government seems to want is an election… they believe they will lose. What they do seem to want is to hold onto power long enough to install their handpicked Army representatives to facilitate a future coup (pending next election results… which will most likely not be in their favor) and derail any chance for a democratic process...again.

The government swiftly rejects UN mediation to help resolve this crisis because if the UN were to get involved then the truth would be even more apparent…. that it isn’t Abhisit making the decisions to begin with.

The truth is out there, it’s just banned in Thailand!

5000 rioters do not dictate terms.

Your truth is somewhere in Montenegro or Dubai or......

There is an election scheduled, just not at the time Thaksin wants it.

[gemini81]

Many people have a real problem when an unelected government forces its way into power through illegal manipulation of the very processes that were supposedly put in place to protect it. Abhisit should have dissolved parliament, stepped down as PM, and called for elections long ago… to preserve democracy. Instead, he has spent his entire term fighting against democracy, not for it. An illegitimate government with blood on its hands violates its published rules of engagement and now threatens innocent protestors with prison terms and/or the threat of death if they do not comply with their wishes. The government has succeeded only in preserving its illegitimacy.

The last thing this so called democratic government seems to want is an election… they believe they will lose. What they do seem to want is to hold onto power long enough to install their handpicked Army representatives to facilitate a future coup (pending next election results… which will most likely not be in their favor) and derail any chance for a democratic process...again.

The government swiftly rejects UN mediation to help resolve this crisis because if the UN were to get involved then the truth would be even more apparent…. that it isn't Abhisit making the decisions to begin with.

The truth is out there, it's just banned in Thailand!

5000 rioters do not dictate terms.

Your truth is somewhere in Montenegro or Dubai or......

There is an election scheduled, just not at the time Thaksin wants it.

no 5000 people don't dictate the terms. but the government is letting them. I am starting to feel more and more irritated as others are I'm sure, that now 3 more days are cancelled and now many of us can't continue to make a living. for some their businesses closed forever, bankrupt, whatever.

In the red camp there are few to no guns in the center, but on the borders near the army. When the h_ll are they gonna get their butts in their and show some authority and control? they have been far too generous to this crowd. bring in the special forces, tanks, and everything at disposal to get the job done! haven't these soldiers trained for all this, and they bought lots of high tech weapons? for situations just like this!

sheesh, compromising and making deals with belligerent thugs...

[elliss]

The human nature dictates to stop these madness. The longer goes on the worse the situation will become. The Red had a perfect way to end it all but they refused since the objective is not really democracy. I believe restraint is a good think but in this case will not work. No matter how long you wait to stop these violence, it will have to be done the same way. Except the longer it is delayed the more life will be lost.

this war has been on the cards , for a very long time ..

sooner or later .. confrontation

we are in the cross fire ..

keep your heads down ,, every where ..

i just bought some blue shirts ..hope that colour is ok..

[Wuffy]

Many people have a real problem when an unelected government forces its way into power through illegal manipulation of the very processes that were supposedly put in place to protect it. Abhisit should have dissolved parliament, stepped down as PM, and called for elections long ago… to preserve democracy. Instead, he has spent his entire term fighting against democracy, not for it. An illegitimate government with blood on its hands violates its published rules of engagement and now threatens innocent protestors with prison terms and/or the threat of death if they do not comply with their wishes. The government has succeeded only in preserving its illegitimacy.

The last thing this so called democratic government seems to want is an election… they believe they will lose. What they do seem to want is to hold onto power long enough to install their handpicked Army representatives to facilitate a future coup (pending next election results… which will most likely not be in their favor) and derail any chance for a democratic process...again.

The government swiftly rejects UN mediation to help resolve this crisis because if the UN were to get involved then the truth would be even more apparent…. that it isn't Abhisit making the decisions to begin with.

The truth is out there, it's just banned in Thailand!

5000 rioters do not dictate terms.

Your truth is somewhere in Montenegro or Dubai or......

There is an election scheduled, just not at the time Thaksin wants it.

Abhisit has rejected the Reds calling for UN mediation. The UN did not ask to mediate, He did not turn them away at the gates of the country.

Should we go ask Hans Blix to come in and check if the Reds really do have weapons too?

Annd a little cherry on top.

At ratchaprasong, the #redshirts guards take a female journalist behind the stage. http://tweetphoto.com/22910119 /via @satien_nna

Update: Female Journalist, was making a documentary of the women and children in the temple. /via @satien_nna

Update: Female Journalist was thought by the protesters to be fake. assaulted her inside temple. #Redshirts Guards help her! /v @satien_nna

Nice innocent protesters.

[kmj]

If the PM does not crush the rebellion he will be criticized. If he does he will be vilified. He is in a no-win situation.

I'm glad we have such a good man in charge at a time like this. Look at some of the past PMs. Who knows what kind of bonehead will replace him?

A good leader must be able to do things which do not look good.

You can't cure cancer without cutting.

yes you can cure cancer without cutting...

[blaze]

Nice innocent protesters.

The red guards (aka muderous cowardly terrorists) removed her from a threatening situation that was brewing in the temple and appear to have taken her to a medic station behind the main stage. I'd say that's pretty nice- no?

[kmj]

Many people have a real problem when an unelected government forces its way into power through illegal manipulation of the very processes that were supposedly put in place to protect it. Abhisit should have dissolved parliament, stepped down as PM, and called for elections long ago… to preserve democracy. Instead, he has spent his entire term fighting against democracy, not for it. An illegitimate government with blood on its hands violates its published rules of engagement and now threatens innocent protestors with prison terms and/or the threat of death if they do not comply with their wishes. The government has succeeded only in preserving its illegitimacy.

The last thing this so called democratic government seems to want is an election… they believe they will lose. What they do seem to want is to hold onto power long enough to install their handpicked Army representatives to facilitate a future coup (pending next election results… which will most likely not be in their favor) and derail any chance for a democratic process...again.

The government swiftly rejects UN mediation to help resolve this crisis because if the UN were to get involved then the truth would be even more apparent…. that it isn't Abhisit making the decisions to begin with.

The truth is out there, it's just banned in Thailand!

5000 rioters do not dictate terms.

Your truth is somewhere in Montenegro or Dubai or......

There is an election scheduled, just not at the time Thaksin wants it.

no 5000 people don't dictate the terms. but the government is letting them. I am starting to feel more and more irritated as others are I'm sure, that now 3 more days are cancelled and now many of us can't continue to make a living. for some their businesses closed forever, bankrupt, whatever.

In the red camp there are few to no guns in the center, but on the borders near the army. When the h_ll are they gonna get their butts in their and show some authority and control? they have been far too generous to this crowd. bring in the special forces, tanks, and everything at disposal to get the job done! haven't these soldiers trained for all this, and they bought lots of high tech weapons? for situations just like this!

sheesh, compromising and making deals with belligerent thugs...

Yes, business before lives, we wouldn't want you to lose money when killing a few 1000's could get businesses open again...

[ianh68]

From POST BAG section of the Bangkok Post

* Published: 14/05/2010 at 12:00 AM

* Newspaper section: News

A de facto failed state

Without even noticing it, Thailand has become a de facto failed state. Let's look at some of the symptoms:

1. The government controls neither the army nor the police.

2. The army supports special interests, rather than the nation.

3. The police are unable or unwilling to enforce the law.

4. The government negotiates with different groups (red, yellow and multi-coloured) which carry no legitimacy, whose leaders have not been elected and who represent a small fraction of the country's population.

5. The leaders of these groups are not ready to accept the results coming from the ballots.

6. Groups having lost the elections are determined to take the streets (or the airports), in order to topple any government that, to their eyes, is not legitimate.

7. Governments can't last more than a few months, during which their actions are restricted by many outsiders, so much so that they become puppets, with no meaningful power.

Thailand's future might well look like today's Somalia.

BRUNO

[termad]

If the PM does not crush the rebellion he will be criticized. If he does he will be vilified. He is in a no-win situation.

I'm glad we have such a good man in charge at a time like this. Look at some of the past PMs. Who knows what kind of bonehead will replace him?

A good leader must be able to do things which do not look good.

You can't cure cancer without cutting.

The way this is going it might be the other way around. Do you realise the numbers of Red Shirt supporters outside Bangkok?

Can you say how many Battalions will be loyal to the Government? Because most of them were recruited in The North and Northeast. The troops being deployed in Bangkok are the so called Eastern Tigers from the East Coast not the elite troops such as the Kings Guard who are based in Bankkok, they I know for a fact are mainly if not 100% from Isaan.

During the 10th April clashes a number of Red Shirts treated at hospitals for injuries were said by the hospitals to be soldiers from the camps along Phahon Yothin who had donned Red Shirts and left their barracks to join in the fight.

The Police in Isaan have refused to send Police Units down to Bangkok to support Abhisit and many if not most of the Bangkok Police would rather be on the Redshirt side. This is why Police Units from places like Satun have had to be brought in.

As for a good man in charge at present he was the one who started all of this.

[Chaimai]

As for a good man in charge at present he was the one who started all of this.

Remind me again EXACTLY how he started it.

[yoshiwara]

If the PM does not crush the rebellion he will be criticized. If he does he will be vilified. He is in a no-win situation.

I'm glad we have such a good man in charge at a time like this. Look at some of the past PMs. Who knows what kind of bonehead will replace him?

A good leader must be able to do things which do not look good.

You can't cure cancer without cutting.

The way this is going it might be the other way around. Do you realise the numbers of Red Shirt supporters outside Bangkok?

Can you say how many Battalions will be loyal to the Government? Because most of them were recruited in The North and Northeast. The troops being deployed in Bangkok are the so called Eastern Tigers from the East Coast not the elite troops such as the Kings Guard who are based in Bankkok, they I know for a fact are mainly if not 100% from Isaan.

During the 10th April clashes a number of Red Shirts treated at hospitals for injuries were said by the hospitals to be soldiers from the camps along Phahon Yothin who had donned Red Shirts and left their barracks to join in the fight.

The Police in Isaan have refused to send Police Units down to Bangkok to support Abhisit and many if not most of the Bangkok Police would rather be on the Redshirt side. This is why Police Units from places like Satun have had to be brought in.

As for a good man in charge at present he was the one who started all of this.

the current battle is a part of Thaksin's strategy to get the army as well as the police force.

No illusions about that.

But the bald fact is that the red numbers are going down

And your number speculation is just that.

Speculation.

[Ulysses G.]

The way this is going it might be the other way around. Do you realise the numbers of Red Shirt supporters outside Bangkok?

You could be right, but the reds have lost a lot of popular support among the populace by turning down the PM's peace deal. It remains to be seen how far the remnants of the movement outside of Bangkok are willing to go.

[gemini81]

The way this is going it might be the other way around. Do you realise the numbers of Red Shirt supporters outside Bangkok?

You could be right, but the reds have lost a lot of popular support among the populace by turning down the PM's peace deal. It remains to be seen how far the remnants of the movement outside of Bangkok are willing to go.

well, some scattered bombs and attempts up in chiang mai near the center and outside the moat. maybe scattered here and there at the most. soldiers who have family that are red or they themselves red are more threat, as they're trained and able to retaliate, while most of those poor farmers are just getting by day by day.

[termad]

The way this is going it might be the other way around. Do you realise the numbers of Red Shirt supporters outside Bangkok?

You could be right, but the reds have lost a lot of popular support among the populace by turning down the PM's peace deal. It remains to be seen how far the remnants of the movement outside of Bangkok are willing to go.

If Abhisit stood for election he would lose that is why he's adamant that he won't and has never had any intention of doing so.

The so called peace deal included the proviso that all the Red Shirt Leaders plus others in Phue Thai (including General Chavalit) surrender themselves to the Police to be charged. The charges include Treason and a plot to overthrow the Monarchy. The plot was presented by Abhisit and his proof was hundreds of names connected by squiggly lines on a white board. He has never been able to present anything else to substantiate his accusations.

The Yellow Shirts occupied the airports but they all got bail and in fact are still walking around free today.

The Red Shirts have denounced the charges of treason and plotting to overthrow the monarchy as nonsense. However, they agreed to surrender on condition that they were granted bail to fight the charges in Court. (They and the other people accused of taking part in this dreamed up plot intend to sue Abhisit for criminal libel and lesse majeste). They have been told that they can't be guaranteed bail. Because of the seriousness of the charges (ridiculous as they are) without bail they could all be in gaol for years even before the case went to Court. Would you have agreed to accept Abhisit's peace deal?

It is also interesting as to what will happen to Abhisit after he loses his parliamentary immunity when the Court dissolves the Democrat Party for corruption and money laundering because the prison terms for criminal libel plus lesse majeste could mean that he would be inside for life.

PS you should read the article about the Thahan Phran (Border Rangers) in the Bangkok Post, 25th April 2010, Entitled "The boys in black Thailands dangerous dark influence." (Spectrum). I don't think that the Thahan Phran could be very happy about their idol being assasinated. I wonder who they're going to blame?

Edited May 18, 2010 by termad

[souvenirdeparis]

I'm shocked at the continuous support of military intervention in lieu of peace talks I see here on this forum... has everyone forgot that people are dying?

What will it take for calmer heads to prevail?! A 10 year old boy has been killed and his mother is experiencing grief very few have experienced before... all in the name of democracy? I wonder if the mother even understands the meaning?... the child surely did not! What happens when a 1 year old, 2 year old or 3 old life is snuffed out? ... as a result of pure arrogance on behalf of both sides!

I say everyone needs to step back, take a deep breath, swallow their pride and sit down face to face. If that takes weeks, or even months, so be it! A real leader is defined when he/she openly admits the decision is/was incorrect and then revising his/her course.

when I was 14 It was May 68 in Paris; I was eager to hop on my moped and go have some ( I thought ) fun; My mom was there everyday with the red cross , and she told me ' you aren't going'

,period. Thanx mom.