Thai People And European History

[personchester]

In a recent posting one OP stated that the Thai people are not interested in European history and stated further ... "Why should they" ... well the reason why they should is evidently clear, Thailand is part of Asia, and S.E. Asia in particular was controlled by Europeans for centuries, countries such as, Burma, Vietman, Laos, Cambodia, Malaysia, Indonesia, Singapore etc, including the two giants India and China, although Thailand was not colonised 'per se' by the Europeans it was nevertheless affected by the European presence in Asia and had to follow the line, and did.

WW1 and WW2 both started by Europeans affected Asia as well, fortunately for Asia the end of WW2 resulted in the reluctant departure of the "European Colonials" from the Asian countries and after getting its freedom Asia has become a rising economical continent including two giant world powers India and China.

The European presence in S.E Asia was powerful for over century and affected the Asian people in many negative ways, this is why the Thai people should be interested in past European history in order to understand their own historical past.

[richieudon]

I don't think Thai schools teach history. I haven't met many Thais that know history. I doubt that Japanese schools teach history of WW2, not sure that in Germany they teach about their atrocities. I'm English and don't really remember being taught about us starving the Irish and all the raping and pillaging etc. I don't know but I would imagine that Thais are taught about all the wars they've won against the Burmese and Cambodia etc..

[tonititan]

I think you might actually be referring to one of my comments. If so, then there are several inaccuracies in your post that I should point out. First, I was not the OP. Second, I did not say that Thai people are not interested in European history, I said that the Thais I know personally don't have a lot of knowledge about European history. Knowledge and interest are two very different things. Third, I did not ask "why should they?" I asked "why would they?" [have a lot of knowledge]. I was referring to the fact that these Thais I was talking about (my friends) don't have a high level of education and haven't had the same worldly opportunities that many of us have had. They come from rice farming backgrounds and have lived most of their lives on the farm. Why would they be "experts" on European history? Also, in an Asian country, I think it is a reasonable guess that European history might not be emphasized in school as much as Asian history is emphasized. Growing up in the west, I certainly learned a lot about European and American history, and very, very little about Asian history.

Please be more careful when interpreting my posts in the future.

[samuibeachcomber]

Welcome to the thai education system.From my observations teaching in village schools up to 16 years of age,they are taught very little.Long on ceremonies short on actual teaching that includes geography,history,science etc.Most thais get their knowlege about the world from television.

[aussimike]

I think you might actually be referring to one of my comments. If so, then there are several inaccuracies in your post that I should point out. First, I was not the OP. Second, I did not say that Thai people are not interested in European history, I said that the Thais I know personally don't have a lot of knowledge about European history. Knowledge and interest are two very different things. Third, I did not ask "why should they?" I asked "why would they?" [have a lot of knowledge]. I was referring to the fact that these Thais I was talking about (my friends) don't have a high level of education and haven't had the same worldly opportunities that many of us have had. They come from rice farming backgrounds and have lived most of their lives on the farm. Why would they be "experts" on European history? Also, in an Asian country, I think it is a reasonable guess that European history might not be emphasized in school as much as Asian history is emphasized. Growing up in the west, I certainly learned a lot about European and American history, and very, very little about Asian history.

Please be more careful when interpreting my posts in the future.

just thought i might add my 10 bahts worth here ---- as teacher of tourims i have found that most thai students dont even know about their own history let alone what happened over seas or even in other countries in asia - some are not even aware of where some countries are - only the really well educated thais has a general knowledge of these things -- i remember studying world history and geography when i was at school - not just local history - this refects on the education curriculum in the LOS and if students were more aware of world history and events they would have a better understanding of what did happen in the past - and current events --

[Microwave]

I see this issue as being similar to the issue of westerners who show disrespect in Thailand. Most westerners aren't educated about Asian history and culture because it's an area of the world which is distant. Therefore Thais become offended when westerners take their picture in places where they shouldn't, or show disrespect to you know who, or dress impolitely. To Thais, western history and culture is just as distant to them as Asian history and culture is to westerners.

I'm not making excuses for references to Hitler, I'm simply trying to explain why these references can happen.

[Shah Jahan]

I think all thais need to carefully study the 20th century history of Iran

Now there are a few remarkable key differences in the situation and no need to get into them....

however the end result could be sickeningly the same if the "mob" is allowed to take power

here is a good starting point

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_Revolution

and btw... the leader of the "revolution" did hide out in France while he plotted the overthrow (just like thaksin is now....)

[Shah Jahan]

double post

Edited May 18, 2010 by Shah Jahan

[sbk]

not really Bangkok related, moved to General

[junkofdavid2]

I recall a popular Thai comedian in a dish-washing detergent TV commercial, wearing an American Confederate Flag as a bandanna on his head.

[Atmos]

last week we headed away on hols to Chanthaburi and Trat, before we went spent some time researching the French occupation there and identifying places of historic interest to visit. Fascinating (to me anyway), but confusing to my partner. She did 2yr business studies at a tech college (not uni) after leaving high school, regularly buys newspapers and reads her thairath news sites; I thought she would have some knowledge after all it's only a province away. But no . . . so we are learning.

Trouble is, now realise I don't know enough myself about colonisation of Asia. My NZ education very much focussed on the 'Empire' when it was history time.

She's got a book (in Thai) on NZ and last night was quiz time - why is NZ's Queen living in England? I wish I'd never started!

Anyway on a lighter note, one place I wanted to see was the Kuk Khi Kai (various spellings for 'Chicken Dung Cell') a very small prison at Laem Sing on C'buri coast French built in 1893 for rebellious Thais. Had a grill roof where they kept poultry to cr*p on prisoners below. Appears to be sinking like the Tower of Pisa. I wanted to leave the kids inside, but no lackable door.

[Berkshire]

I'm sorry, but the OP's entire premise is nonsense. Speaking from an American perspective, I know very little about European history (other than the obviously major stuff), South American history, African history, and of course, Asian history. If it doesn't really effect me on a day-to-day basis, why would I be interested? Thai's would be better off learning some history related to the region (i.e., Asia), but honestly, just because you're personally interested, it doesn't mean that it's applicable at all to anyone residing in Thailand. It's a rather arrogant presumption, actually. How much do you know about Thai history? China? Japan? I'm sure your ignorance is profound.

[StreetCowboy]

History is bunk, as Henry Ford said.

Presumably the OP's opinion is that history, European history, and the history of Europe's relatiosnhip with Asia, and Thailand in particular, should be taught in order to reinforce the prejudices that he himself presents in the original post, and to encourage the resultant bigotry and xenophobia.

I would not be in favour of this.

SC

On matters of fact, the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbour that opened up the war in the Pacific was probably not a direct result of European action, nor was their earlier occupation of China. I put it to you that the British and Austalian action in Burma and in South East Asia, and the American action in the Pacific, may have helped SE ASian nations to avoid subjugation by an imperial Japanese regime, the benefits or otherwise of which we can merely speculate.

[PhilHarries]

So Henry Ford has now been elevated from a businessman to a philosopher? I suppose in the twitter world such people are significant as you can quote them within the length of a tweet.

As for Thais learning European history I think there are quite a few subjects that should be given priority over that one.

And as for Europeans going to Thailand and trampling all over Thai culture I think you'll find that is in the character of the particular individuals rather than the education.

[kevozman1]

I'm sorry, but the OP's entire premise is nonsense. Speaking from an American perspective, I know very little about European history (other than the obviously major stuff), South American history, African history, and of course, Asian history. If it doesn't really effect me on a day-to-day basis, why would I be interested? Thai's would be better off learning some history related to the region (i.e., Asia), but honestly, just because you're personally interested, it doesn't mean that it's applicable at all to anyone residing in Thailand. It's a rather arrogant presumption, actually. How much do you know about Thai history? China? Japan? I'm sure your ignorance is profound.

I think we have to understand that education standards in Europe are much

higher than the rest of the World and generally speaking where the most

intelligent people come from or are educated there.

Just look how many overseas university graduates come from all over the

World to study in England: All subjects, Germany:engineering and science

and Ireland: literature.

Yes Europe may have its down points (my beef would be its a little dull)

but Europe truly is the brain of the Earth.

[bangon04]

I'm sorry, but the OP's entire premise is nonsense. Speaking from an American perspective, I know very little about European history (other than the obviously major stuff), South American history, African history, and of course, Asian history. If it doesn't really effect me on a day-to-day basis, why would I be interested? Thai's would be better off learning some history related to the region (i.e., Asia), but honestly, just because you're personally interested, it doesn't mean that it's applicable at all to anyone residing in Thailand. It's a rather arrogant presumption, actually. How much do you know about Thai history? China? Japan? I'm sure your ignorance is profound.

Americans I have met cannot find Afghanistan on a world map, even though the map of Afghanistan appears on CNN every 15 minutes.

Does Afghanistan affect the day-to-day life of ordinary Americans? They are paying for it....

Similarly, most Thais I have met cannot find Iceland or Ireland (same country, different spelling) or Greece on a map, or Canada.

What they do learn in Thai schools is how much better Thailand is than any other nation, how Thai culture, history, traditions, are always superior, and that Farang sometimes eat Thai babies. Anything that went wrong in Thai history was the fault of foreigners (especially the Burmese).

This teaching of crass nationalism appears to be the most important thing for the buffaloes to learn, alongside the desirability of subsistence farming (sorry i meant to write Sufficiency Economy).

Edited May 18, 2010 by bangon04

[GuestHouse]

I put it to you that the British and Austalian action in Burma and in South East Asia, and the American action in the Pacific, may have helped SE ASian nations to avoid subjugation by an imperial Japanese regime, the benefits or otherwise of which we can merely speculate.

Well it obviously did not work for Thailand which became a vassal state of Japan.

But that's a bit of Thai history that Thais themselves could do with being taught, not to mention at least one farang (or so it would seem).

---------

I personally don't think that Thai's here in Thailand should be taught European History (as in it ought to be obligatory) however, European history has plenty of good lessons they might benefit from. So it might perhaps be better to say - It would be a good idea if they bothered to learn a bit of European History - Should they bother, I'd recommend some reading on the Gracci and that this should be followed by some reading up on Augustus.

But then it's almost certain that at least one Thai person read Res Gestae Divi Augusti - and seems too have inwardly digested it's contents.

[7by7]

I think we have to understand that education standards in Europe are much

higher than the rest of the World and generally speaking where the most

intelligent people come from or are educated there.

Even though their grammar is not what it might be? ( Capital 'w' in world and redundant 'there' at the end of the sentence.)

Being educated does not make one intelligent, and being uneducated does not mean one is not intelligent.

Countries tend to teach their own history at school level; it is only if one goes on to study history at university that world history comes into it.

[sirineou]

"Those who do not learn from history are condemned to repeat it."

In Having conversations with my very intelligent, very smart, ( though I some times wonder about the smart part, I mean , she married me after all ), relatively well educated ( university degree), wife. I am always surprised by her lack of world history knowledge, for instance did not know who Hitler was,etc.

I believe that to be a big problem.the definition of insanity is " doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results., if that definition is correct, I believe the world is definitely insane ,and I believe a little history would certainly go a long way in contributing toward curbing the insanity.

[GuestHouse]

There is though a problem with teaching history.

The historical method is probably the most useful tool in creating inquisitive and critical thinking.

Typically - This is what we believed happened, let's go back and look at the source material - Who wrote this record? Is there anything about that person and their connections that might cause them to take a biased view? Is the source material even authentic? (Bit of a biggy for one particular artifact here in Thailand). And what do we do if the source material disagrees with the official line?

You don't need to learn European history to get the benefits this kind of teaching brings - But then 'Inquisitive and critical thinking' might not be in everyone's best interests.

It might be better to teach fairy tales instead.

Edited May 18, 2010 by GuestHouse

[TheItaliann]

I put it to you that the British and Austalian action in Burma and in South East Asia, and the American action in the Pacific, may have helped SE ASian nations to avoid subjugation by an imperial Japanese regime, the benefits or otherwise of which we can merely speculate.

Well it obviously did not work for Thailand which became a vassal state of Japan.

But that's a bit of Thai history that Thais themselves could do with being taught, not to mention at least one farang (or so it would seem).

---------

I personally don't think that Thai's here in Thailand should be taught European History (as in it ought to be obligatory) however, European history has plenty of good lessons they might benefit from. So it might perhaps be better to say - It would be a good idea if they bothered to learn a bit of European History - Should they bother, I'd recommend some reading on the Gracci and that this should be followed by some reading up on Augustus.

But then it's almost certain that at least one Thai person read Res Gestae Divi Augusti - and seems too have inwardly digested it's contents.

Well, quite a few appear to sleep with The Prince under their pillow.

[mark45y]

I'm sorry, but the OP's entire premise is nonsense. Speaking from an American perspective, I know very little about European history (other than the obviously major stuff), South American history, African history, and of course, Asian history. If it doesn't really effect me on a day-to-day basis, why would I be interested? Thai's would be better off learning some history related to the region (i.e., Asia), but honestly, just because you're personally interested, it doesn't mean that it's applicable at all to anyone residing in Thailand. It's a rather arrogant presumption, actually. How much do you know about Thai history? China? Japan? I'm sure your ignorance is profound.

I think we have to understand that education standards in Europe are much

higher than the rest of the World and generally speaking where the most

intelligent people come from or are educated there.

Just look how many overseas university graduates come from all over the

World to study in England: All subjects, Germany:engineering and science

and Ireland: literature.

Yes Europe may have its down points (my beef would be its a little dull)

but Europe truly is the brain of the Earth.

If Europe is truly the brain of the earth I imagine he went to school at Harvard.

Check out the top universities in the world from any source you like. I will include a few.

1 Harvard University USA 2 University of Oxford UK 3 University of Cambridge UK 4 Stanford University USA 5 Massachusetts Institute of Technology USA 6 University of California, Berkeley USA 7 California Institute of Technology USA 8 Princeton University USA 9 Yale University USA 10 University of Chicago USA

1  Massachusetts Institute of Technology

United States

2  Stanford University

United States

3  Harvard University

United States

4  Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México

Mexico

5  University of California, Berkeley

United States

6  Peking University

China

7  University of Pennsylvania

United States

8  Cornell University

United States

9  Shanghai Jiao Tong University

China

10  Yale University

Which schools made the top list?

Harvard University (United States)

University of Cambridge (United Kingdom)

Yale University (United States)

UCL (University College London) (United Kingdom)

Imperial College London (United Kingdom)

World Rank University 1 Harvard University USA 2 Stanford University USA 3 California Institute of Technology USA 4 University of California - Berkeley USA 5 University of Cambridge United Kingdom 6 Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) USA 7 Princeton University USA 8 Yale University USA 9 University of Oxford United Kingdom 10 Columbia University USA 11 University of Chicago USA 12 Cornell University USA 13 University of California - San Francisco USA 14 University of California - San Diego USA 15 University of California - Los Angeles USA 16 University of Washington USA 17 Imperial College, University of London United Kingdom 18 University of Pennsylvania USA 19 The University of Tokyo Japan 20 University College London United Kingdom 21 University of Michigan - Ann Arbor USA

[GuestHouse]

And the reason why these top schools remain top schools is because they draw in the best brains from around the planet.

Nothing to do with their location and everything to do with building on a reputation.

[Xangsamhua]

I'm a History junkie and have been ever since I was able to visit Roman ruins, Norman castles, the Tower of London, stately homes etc and to realize that I was part of a human continuity that had formed me and that I would contribute to. However, if some one asked me what's the use of learning History, I probably couldn't answer the question. The very need to ask the question indicates that a person is satisfied with the mental and cultural landscape of the here and now and sees the environment as one in which to hunt and gather, not as an interstice of past, present and future.

As a History junkie I would like to see young Thais not only learn about what happened in their country's past, but also to be allowed to ask why and how it came to be that way and was it a good thing for people at the time and for us, their successors. But I don't think Thai culture lends itself to that kind of enquiry, especially if it reflects in any way unfavorably on people in positions of authority and privilege in the present.

I think it's also very difficult for Thai historians to maintain their integrity unless they stick to safe topics, and even then they can find themselves in hot water. To question the authenticity of the Ramkhamhaeng inscription or the historicity of the Suranaree story is regarded as much more than just academic interrogation of the given, something we expect from scholars in the West at all levels from primary school upwards. However, some very good writing comes from Thai historians resident abroad, and recently we've seen locally published material on monastic education and practice that actually criticizes former monarchs. This is a great step forward from the public and physical humiliation some years ago of a junior academic for suggesting that Khunying Moh may not have been an historical person.

So it's difficult, but if the next generation of Thai leaders are going to lead with unobstructed vision then they need to study their national history in a free and critical-analytical way, and teachers need to have at least the freedom to comment on the texts and expand on them, not just expound. My first awareness of the need to read history critically was in a Year 7 class where the teacher pointed out some bias in the textbook, a revelation for a young boy who up to then believed everything he was told by authority figures.

This doesn't answer the question about whether Thai kids should learn European history as well. I think they should a bit later in their education, but for now I've said enough.

[csolgosz]

It is not just 'rice farmers' who don't know anything.

I am a teacher in Bangkok and the same problems exist here.

But just in case you think I am blaming Thai for being poorly educated or stupid, I was a teacher in Australia before I came here and the kids were no better. I was teaching 15 year olds and I tried to play a verbal game with them where they had to call out the answers to general knowledge questions.

Here are some questions that I recall that NONE of the class of 25 could answer:-

"What is point five times 30?"

"What colour do you get if you mix the primary colours red and blue?"

"Who was the Prime Minister before the current one?"

"Name one classical music composer."

"What is the capital of the United States?"

"Name one world leader during the World War Two conflict."

"What is NaCl?"

At this point I was interrupted by a volley of discouraged voices - "It's not our fault." "You are the only one who teaches us anything." "What do we need to know that for?" "I don't learn history."

I then sarcastically asked them, "What is the green stuff that grows out of the earth called which is used to cover football ovals?" They all knew, but took a moment to catch on to the fact that I was being sarcastic. I went on to tell them all most of those questions I could have answered easily in early High School and they needed to put their play stations away and learn something. Do you think they listened...?

[TheItaliann]

So it's difficult, but if the next generation of Thai leaders are going to lead with unobstructed vision then they need to study their national history in a free and critical-analytical way, and teachers need to have at least the freedom to comment on the texts and expand on them, not just expound.

The leaders of Thailand all study abroad. They are completely aware of all of Thailand's historical truths. For whatever reasons, they feel that it would be a disservice to their fellow country men to burden them with the same exercises in logic.

[TheItaliann]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4DIKPJ9W-E

Why I love history.

[Xangsamhua]

So it's difficult, but if the next generation of Thai leaders are going to lead with unobstructed vision then they need to study their national history in a free and critical-analytical way, and teachers need to have at least the freedom to comment on the texts and expand on them, not just expound.

The leaders of Thailand all study abroad. They are completely aware of all of Thailand's historical truths. For whatever reasons, they feel that it would be a disservice to their fellow country men to burden them with the same exercises in logic.

Well, not quite all of them. I would be thinking leaders include anyone from Nai Amphur up, plus senior military, police, civil servants, middle and senior managers, etc, who may receive training abroad, but in a narrow field and for a limited period of time. You make a good point though about cabinet ministers, permanent secretaries and the like - plenty of Oxbridge and Ivy League graduates in those circles.

[bina]

and those of us living in the middle east (well, my middle east which is actually more western then eastern) ????? neither american, south american, asian nor european except for hitler of course: my kids are very well versed in bible history (bible as possible history sinc ethey went to a secular school), european history i.e. world war two with an emphasis on , well, the main players that would affect israel, and some islamic past history. thailand is where poeple go to eat shrimp and have fun and also the place (maybe tawain, thailand, same same) where the guys that pick our vegetables come from, europe is where people go to go shopping, everything is paved in gold in american and the sinai is the best place to chill out regardless of whom it belonged to in the past or present... history is what appears in the internet where u can see where your brother has been surfing.... )

all the years that i had to learn about the pilgrims when my forfathers came over in steerage........ different histories for sure....

btw, thai husband always knew who hitler was but after living here for five years, now he REALLY knows, all from movies and film clips of interviews from people he meets on the sidewalks daily: and cable tv is a great way to learn history (airplanes of ww2; the history of rice, etc.... national geographic channel has been a god send for my 6th grade educated non english non hebrew speaking thai husband...) i myself am more interested in asian history then my own history, but find myself learning more of my own when trying to explain to husband about the history here....

education does not = intelligence since ive met goats and horses with more intelligence then some professors that ive know over the years..........

bina

israel

israel

[zydeco]

I'm sorry, but the OP's entire premise is nonsense. Speaking from an American perspective, I know very little about European history (other than the obviously major stuff), South American history, African history, and of course, Asian history. If it doesn't really effect me on a day-to-day basis, why would I be interested? Thai's would be better off learning some history related to the region (i.e., Asia), but honestly, just because you're personally interested, it doesn't mean that it's applicable at all to anyone residing in Thailand. It's a rather arrogant presumption, actually. How much do you know about Thai history? China? Japan? I'm sure your ignorance is profound.

I think we have to understand that education standards in Europe are much

higher than the rest of the World and generally speaking where the most

intelligent people come from or are educated there.

Just look how many overseas university graduates come from all over the

World to study in England: All subjects, Germany:engineering and science

and Ireland: literature.

Yes Europe may have its down points (my beef would be its a little dull)

but Europe truly is the brain of the Earth.

Oxford and Cambridge? Proof that a university can remain first class and still be second rate.