Thai Political Violence Far From Over: Analysts

[garywee77]

Stop looking at the end result,

If you wanna solve the problems, all things must be traced back from it roots,

If the Gov keeps on abusing on their own citizens,

Eventually with all hatred, you would somehow mutilate them to besome some monsters where it could be seen in this crisis.

The Gov must always bear this in mind, The only way to be successful

Is not to get rid of your enemies but to love your enemies and convert them to your side.

Otherwise, this thing will never come to an end.

[DavidHouston]

The source for the quotation is http://twitter.com/khunpleum . You need to page down to May 19th. And, you have to read it backwards since the total is a series of twits in reverse chronological order.

[quote name='Old Man River' date='2010-05-20 17:19:10' post='3624219']

something to think about

Suthikiart Jirathiwat and Pracha Maleenont are quite close to Thaksin Shinawatra. They are still on good terms. If the reds set the blaze it would not make sense at all.

Places burnt down are symbolic of regime/system and representation of success. However the perpetrators are sparing many business locations

Dusit, MBK, ASTV, Nation, SisaoTewes, Pullman Kingpower, all left untouched.

Those would've been the reds' targets. Remember who was feuding with Central and BEC before all of this? Who was the biggest enemy of the Central Group and Ch. 3 in the past 3 years? The direct beneficiary of the fire is not reds or Thaksin...it's the man who feuded.

The fire kills 5 birds with one stone: Channel 3, Central, Thaksin, Reds, Anti-Monarchists. Pongpat was used. Game over for Thaksin as he and reds are delegitimized, while opponents of Central/Bangkok Bank/BEC benefit. Think about this for a minute and you'll realise the missing jigsaw of this puzzle.

The men behind the blaze are the men who wanted to drive BEC/Central/BBL out of business and blame it on protestors. The fires irrevocably end the reds shirts movement for now, while Thaksin cannot conceivably ever return to politics or even to Thai soil.

The victims of the fire are not Thaksin/Reds's enemies. They are the enemies of Thaksin's enemies. Ultra-hardcore-right-winged conservative types stand to benefit from this chaos.

Watch the aftermath closely and you'll see. Those who are desperate about clinging on to power are required to create an element of fear in the heart of its population. The incentive is greater than those who are aspiring to attain power.

People will go to great lengths to protect remaining interests while the threat is eliminated to foster a rally-round-the-regime type of feeling.

The goal of the movement to eliminate Thaksin forever from the system was not accomplished until today. It is end-game for him. We lose. Regime wins.

May I stress not coincidence ASTV, Nation, PullmanKingPower, Dusit remain untouched. This battle is deeper than what meets the eyes. And SiSao is untouched.

This is a post right off twitter from last night. Either you are the original author or you have plagiarized. Which is it?

I assume you are an American that is bastardising the English Lanuguage AGAIN . The word is plagiarism. THERE ARE NO Z's in the word. If you are going to use the English language, use it properly without your americanizms!!! and also stop pronouncing short vowels as long vowels when you talk!!

Warning: posts regarding others spelling and grammar not only hijacks the topic but is poor netiquette. If repeated I will suspend your posting rights without prior warning. I hope you got my point

[brahmburgers]

Nov 14 poll date should be postponed: Banharn

Chart Thai Pattana Party chief adviser Banharn Silapa-Archa on Friday called for the postponement of the November 14 election date.....

- from today's Nation newspaper

Who said the Nov 14 poll date was on the table? Hello Mr. Banhan, anybody home? That proposal was withdrawn 10 days ago after the Red leaders hemmed and hawed for a week. The Reds gambled and lost. They wanted the gov't to fall. It didn't. They have zero bargaining power now. They're in jail without bail. Also: I hope the gov't doesn't cut any deals with Arisman the Weezle. Arisman can be readily caught (unless he bolts overseas like the Shinawats and Saxena did), so no need to play footsie with him to bring him in. When he's in custody, throw the book at him, that's the least he deserves.

Now I'm guessing here, but I would bet that all the anti-redshirt posters have no idea about the living conditions of the poor in Thailand, or the poverty of the rural schools. Go and live on a Thai farm with no proper toilets, no running water and a mud road outside for a week and then post about how the redshirts should be punished for their crimes.

You are guessing, or more correctly, grasping. You don't know diddly squat about me, but I, for one, have been rubbing shoulders with some of Thailand's poor. Probably poorer than people you've been with, and certainly poorer than Red Shirts. I'm referring to hill tribers who live so far off the beaten track that it would take about half a day to drive there in a 4-wheel drive vehicle.

As for whether the Redshirts should be punished for their crimes, the answer is a resounding YES! Not just the adreniline junkies who tried to trash the city, but also the so-called leaders. Yes, the ones who have been secretly stashing hundreds of millions of baht away in private places, money channeled from you-know-who and his sicko supporters. Follow the money.

It's a crying shame that 90% of the resources of a generation of Thai jurists have to be devoted to the Shinawats and the piles of toxic crap they leave in their wake. It's taxpayer money which pays for the judges, the detectives, the accountants, and the hundreds of other professionals who are compelled to focus on Thaksin and the toxic slick he leaves behind wherever he goes. Millions of hours and hundreds of millions of baht of resources which could be devoted to other things.

Q. When was the last time Thailand's legislators dealt with an environmental issue?

Answer: THEY NEVER DEAL WITH ENVIRONMENTAL ISSUES. They're all too busy having to deal with Thaksin, the Shinawats and always looking over their shoulders to see who might be the next to stab them in the back, politically speaking.

[sarahsbloke]

I know you're American, and on my ignore list, that's enough.

Edited May 21, 2010 by sarahsbloke

[Old Man River]

The source for the quotation is http://twitter.com/khunpleum . You need to page down to May 19th. And, you have to read it backwards since the total is a series of twits in reverse chronological order.

My question to the original poster of this conspiracy theory was whether he originated it or instead plagiarized it. The emotional response showed that he had plagiarized it.

[toptuan]

something to think about

Suthikiart Jirathiwat and Pracha Maleenont are quite close to Thaksin Shinawatra....

Something else to think about: Despite many requests for poster JUCEL to own up to the source of this post, he continues to ignore them. Instead of the information we seek, we get deflective and arrogant responses such as "I would prefer you view on the matter rather than your fastidious observation!"

In my opinion this poster has completely discredited himself on ThaiVisa. For myself, the "ignore" function on this forum is an appropriate response.*

(* "My Controls" --> "Manage Ignored Users" --> enter poster's name in "add a new user to your list" field)

I agree with you Toptuan, for the first part.

However, putting another member on ignore is not the way to develop a discussion, whether someone is correct or incorrect. In a democratic society, everyone has a voice, but to close a door is not the solution, trying to find the truth.

I was also interested in finding the truth with this chap but if he refrains from answering, by choice or absence...life goes on; shutting the door by putting him on ignore won't deliver you the answers.

LaoPo

Good point, LadPo. Due to your consistent high-quality posts, I doubt you'll ever get my ignore button. (Yes, you can let out your breath now.)

[toptuan]

The source for the quotation is http://twitter.com/khunpleum . You need to page down to May 19th. And, you have to read it backwards since the total is a series of twits in reverse chronological order.

My question to the original poster of this conspiracy theory was whether he originated it or instead plagiarized it. The emotional response showed that he had plagiarized it.

Thank you for highlighting this point. Further reason for members to carefully consider the credibility of this poster on future posts.

[yoshiwara]

Bangkok Begins to Restore Order

excerpt:

In addition to rebuilding the damaged neighborhoods of Bangkok, analysts said the government should quickly reach out to try to quell some of the anger that helped trigger the protest.

That should include calling elections soon so those dissatisfied with the current situation can vent their anger through a vote rather than violence, said Somchai Phagapasvivat, a Bangkok-based political and economic analyst. The government has to "try to isolate the hard-core [groups] and reconcile with the peaceful elements," he said. "They have to draw up a road map to more participation" in government by the groups that feel left out.

—Wilawan Watcharasakwet contributed to this article.

From:

The Wall Street Journal:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405..._MIDDLENewsIntl

LaoPo

After every riotous activity the reds use this as a justification to push Thaksin's agenda which is to get control of the army leadership appointments.

As do you.

Reconcile with the peaceful elements?

We have yet to see that.

However, Thaksin's time line is now in flames.

So save your breath.

ever heard of messengers, in this case an article by The Wall Street Journal, just in case you didn't notice ?

Everyone who doesn't walk in your lane is called a red apologist; the only colors you know are BLACK & WHITE.

LaoPo

No but you are.

I think the colour black is also yours.

Or are they fakes now?

[LaoPo]

No but you are.

I think the colour black is also yours.

Or are they fakes now?

Your answer shows you are not aware nor have a clue where I stand.

You attack not only me but others too if they disagree with you.

That I posted the content and link of an article in the Wall Street Journal - a quality news source as you know-, not written by myself, and you attack me for that says enough about you, not me; I was just the messenger.

Gentlemen do not attack each other, they debate.

LaoPo

[iciparis]

something to think about

Suthikiart Jirathiwat and Pracha Maleenont are quite close to Thaksin Shinawatra. They are still on good terms. If the reds set the blaze it would not make sense at all.

Places burnt down are symbolic of regime/system and representation of success. However the perpetrators are sparing many business locations

Dusit, MBK, ASTV, Nation, SisaoTewes, Pullman Kingpower, all left untouched.

Those would've been the reds' targets. Remember who was feuding with Central and BEC before all of this? Who was the biggest enemy of the Central Group and Ch. 3 in the past 3 years? The direct beneficiary of the fire is not reds or Thaksin...it's the man who feuded.

The fire kills 5 birds with one stone: Channel 3, Central, Thaksin, Reds, Anti-Monarchists. Pongpat was used. Game over for Thaksin as he and reds are delegitimized, while opponents of Central/Bangkok Bank/BEC benefit. Think about this for a minute and you'll realise the missing jigsaw of this puzzle.

The men behind the blaze are the men who wanted to drive BEC/Central/BBL out of business and blame it on protestors. The fires irrevocably end the reds shirts movement for now, while Thaksin cannot conceivably ever return to politics or even to Thai soil.

The victims of the fire are not Thaksin/Reds's enemies. They are the enemies of Thaksin's enemies. Ultra-hardcore-right-winged conservative types stand to benefit from this chaos.

Watch the aftermath closely and you'll see. Those who are desperate about clinging on to power are required to create an element of fear in the heart of its population. The incentive is greater than those who are aspiring to attain power.

People will go to great lengths to protect remaining interests while the threat is eliminated to foster a rally-round-the-regime type of feeling.

The goal of the movement to eliminate Thaksin forever from the system was not accomplished until today. It is end-game for him. We lose. Regime wins.

May I stress not coincidence ASTV, Nation, PullmanKingPower, Dusit remain untouched. This battle is deeper than what meets the eyes. And SiSao is untouched.

Back it up by facts, no speculations, why have red-shirt leaders and followers openly stated that they would burn Central World down.

Or you might be hit in the head as well, probably you think it's a British conspiracy made in Tonbridge Kent??

[iciparis]

something to think about

Suthikiart Jirathiwat and Pracha Maleenont are quite close to Thaksin Shinawatra. They are still on good terms. If the reds set the blaze it would not make sense at all.

Places burnt down are symbolic of regime/system and representation of success. However the perpetrators are sparing many business locations

Dusit, MBK, ASTV, Nation, SisaoTewes, Pullman Kingpower, all left untouched.

Those would've been the reds' targets. Remember who was feuding with Central and BEC before all of this? Who was the biggest enemy of the Central Group and Ch. 3 in the past 3 years? The direct beneficiary of the fire is not reds or Thaksin...it's the man who feuded.

The fire kills 5 birds with one stone: Channel 3, Central, Thaksin, Reds, Anti-Monarchists. Pongpat was used. Game over for Thaksin as he and reds are delegitimized, while opponents of Central/Bangkok Bank/BEC benefit. Think about this for a minute and you'll realise the missing jigsaw of this puzzle.

The men behind the blaze are the men who wanted to drive BEC/Central/BBL out of business and blame it on protestors. The fires irrevocably end the reds shirts movement for now, while Thaksin cannot conceivably ever return to politics or even to Thai soil.

The victims of the fire are not Thaksin/Reds's enemies. They are the enemies of Thaksin's enemies. Ultra-hardcore-right-winged conservative types stand to benefit from this chaos.

Watch the aftermath closely and you'll see. Those who are desperate about clinging on to power are required to create an element of fear in the heart of its population. The incentive is greater than those who are aspiring to attain power.

People will go to great lengths to protect remaining interests while the threat is eliminated to foster a rally-round-the-regime type of feeling.

The goal of the movement to eliminate Thaksin forever from the system was not accomplished until today. It is end-game for him. We lose. Regime wins.

May I stress not coincidence ASTV, Nation, PullmanKingPower, Dusit remain untouched. This battle is deeper than what meets the eyes. And SiSao is untouched.

This is a post right off twitter from last night. Either you are the original author or you have plagiarized. Which is it?

I would prefer you view on the matter rather than your fastidious observation!

So you are a nutter after all

[hammered]

I don't believe you. If you did pay 4000 bt then someone in your family is pocketing that money. The government this year has begun paying for all uniforms and textbooks. There are no fees. I know this for a fact as my extended family has school-aged children living in Surin and they recently enrolled in school for this year. In previous years I gladly helped with school startup expenses for the kids in my extended family. This is the first year that it wasn't necessary.

I went along to the school with my wife, talked with the teacher who sold the uniforms, she filled in all the forms, talked mainly in Thai, most of which I could understand. I gave her 1600 for 2 school uniforms, 2 pairs of shoes, a guides uniform and two track suits, with accessories. On the first day at school I paid the 800bht for her books, I have still to pay the 800bht for the traditional Thai dress for religious days. It didn't appear to be a scam. This week I paid 60bht for 6 notebooks. I didn't see anything out-of-order, I'm not one of the poor ..... 4000bht is nothing to me. At the school lunch is free, breakfast isn't, I give my step-daughter 20bht each school day for pocket money.

My wife goes to Sunday highschool, this is almost entirely free, so far 50bht for notebooks.

The problem with is that when they have 100 baht they will spend 120 baht when they have 200 bath they will spend 250 bath, when they have 10.000 they will spend 13.000.

This is completely true, Thai people seem to have no money management skills at all. My wife would spend all I have in a very short time if I were to allow it. In this behaviour she doesn't appear to be all that different to all the other Thai ladies I have met, what you have you spend immediately.

First I must then apologize for the accusation.

I am bewildered by your experience though. As I say, my family didn't have to pay anything at all for textbooks. There were no fees. They were also given 450 bt per child to cover uniform expenses. The uniform, purchased in town, ran about 550 bt so they did have to kick in 100 bt. This was at a high school located about 12 km outside of Surin Ampher Muang.

I can only speculate what is going on in your school district. Perhaps school administrators are pocketing government funds for uniforms and textbooks. Perhaps the provincial Ministry of Education offices are corrupt. Perhaps the provincial MoE offices are inefficient and haven't disbursed the money to the schools. I really have no explanation. I think you should report this to the MoE office in your province immediately. You should also contact the main MoE office in Bangkok.

Exactly. I think you are responding to someone who knows nothing about Thailand, or is some red operative or even worse one of the fat spin doctors PR operatives

[animatic]

I know you're American, and on my ignore list, that's enough.

He won't miss you.

Plus yank bashing wins you no points...

You are also 180 degrees wrong about his location and ties with the poor.

Only fools and horses.

[iciparis]

@ Viking

Do not know what you drink when you type, but your English is getting worse after the mob has been removed.

Herby said; As long as the Thai society is being influenced by people who have the mind/attitude as this poster we have a long way to go to overcome the political turmoil.

As long as people only blame the other party but refuse to take some blame for them selves, this finger-pointing will not end in our life-time.

And it's sad that this PM (who was elected in parlement, who had by the way the most PTP members, but many of them abstained their vote) had never a chance to proof that he is the man who can do the job, who could bring Thais closer to each other, who could close the gap between poor and middle class, caused by previous greedy not to be named governments.

He had the best chances to restore somewhat of the trust between the Thais and the southern provinces, destroid by previous not be named governments, etc,etc.

But there were people who had planned their revange from before day 1, so the PM never got a chance to proof his good intentions, and now people (who have plotted against him) want to tell the rest of us morons?? that, see what has this PM done for the country.

previuos govenrments have looted the country without setting it on fire, but they lit the heat.

So back to my cup of coffee

Edited May 21, 2010 by iciparis

[datum]

A rather long post before I go to bed; actually a continuation of my previous short post which was based on the following story:

Today was my first day to the office after 2 weeks absence. I was on a business travel abroad, I came back on Tuesday and the office was closed until yesterday. My day was really hectic and I was working like a machine the whole day. Before going home I decided to invite my Thai colleague for a cup of tea (he is not drinking alcohol) in our company’s cafeteria. We work literally back-to-back the last 18 months and we make good company. We have both a high level of formal education and I appreciate his moderate style. We’ve never talked politics before but this afternoon I dared to ask his view over the situation.

I left him to talk for about 10 minutes without any interruption and to make a long story short for 9 out of the 10 minutes he was trying to convince me that the current government is the best thing that Thailand has ever had and that the current PM has been the most progressive PM that Thailand ever had. The other one minute was about the evil that is called Thaksin. I thanked him for his views and I replied with a very short comment and a question. I’ve told him “OK, I really do not know the political history of Thailand and since I trust your opinion I will accept that the PM is doing his best under the circumstances but since we both work on information systems and knowledge management can you explain to me why this progressive PM and his government has banned so many Internet sites and he is controlling so much the information flow?”.

Parenthesis: Why I asked this? Because for me the right to free and non-censored information is a FUNDAMENTAL right of democracies and an absolute necessary element of progress. I work 20 years in the field of knowledge management and I’ve learned that free information makes GOOD! Always! Even if free includes exposure to extreme and radical positions from all political spectrum. Democracies will not control information; they will just educate people so they make sure they use the information for good reasons and they reject the “garbage”. End of parenthesis.

At that moment something happened that made me to regret my “stupid decision” to start a political discussion with a Thai colleague. His face became red and his reply to me was the following: “Oh I see, you are supporting the others. I was never expecting that you are a red!". I politely told to him, “I am sorry maybe I didn’t make myself clear, I am not supporting the reds I am just asking something that it is related to my field of expertise, my interests and my work and I am really interested to know your position”. Fortunately he didn’t continued his argument that I am a red but for the next 15 minutes he was trying, extremely unsuccessfully, to explain to me why in Thailand only government endorsed information should be allowed and why censorships is a democratic practice. I have to admit that after the first 5-7minutes I was not really listening to him because the same arguments were repeated continuously. After this I thanked him for his opinion (he never asked my view) and we wished good week-end to each other. I was deeply disappointed because this was not the opinion of an uneducated extremist. It was an opinion of a very well educated conservative person. I was disappointed also in a professional level (for us free access to information is the backbone of our business) but this is another story. In any case I am really sad when I see this opinion to be so widespread in Thailand. I really believe that only bad things can happen to this country if this opinion will finally prevail. Maybe in some years China will be a “paradise of free information flow” compared to Thailand.

Good night.

[lannarebirth]

A rather long post before I go to bed; actually a continuation of my previous short post which was based on the following story:

Today was my first day to the office after 2 weeks absence. I was on a business travel abroad, I came back on Tuesday and the office was closed until yesterday. My day was really hectic and I was working like a machine the whole day. Before going home I decided to invite my Thai colleague for a cup of tea (he is not drinking alcohol) in our company's cafeteria. We work literally back-to-back the last 18 months and we make good company. We have both a high level of formal education and I appreciate his moderate style. We've never talked politics before but this afternoon I dared to ask his view over the situation.

I left him to talk for about 10 minutes without any interruption and to make a long story short for 9 out of the 10 minutes he was trying to convince me that the current government is the best thing that Thailand has ever had and that the current PM has been the most progressive PM that Thailand ever had. The other one minute was about the evil that is called Thaksin. I thanked him for his views and I replied with a very short comment and a question. I've told him "OK, I really do not know the political history of Thailand and since I trust your opinion I will accept that the PM is doing his best under the circumstances but since we both work on information systems and knowledge management can you explain to me why this progressive PM and his government has banned so many Internet sites and he is controlling so much the information flow?".

Parenthesis: Why I asked this? Because for me the right to free and non-censored information is a FUNDAMENTAL right of democracies and an absolute necessary element of progress. I work 20 years in the field of knowledge management and I've learned that free information makes GOOD! Always! Even if free includes exposure to extreme and radical positions from all political spectrum. Democracies will not control information; they will just educate people so they make sure they use the information for good reasons and they reject the "garbage". End of parenthesis.

At that moment something happened that made me to regret my "stupid decision" to start a political discussion with a Thai colleague. His face became red and his reply to me was the following: "Oh I see, you are supporting the others. I was never expecting that you are a red!". I politely told to him, "I am sorry maybe I didn't make myself clear, I am not supporting the reds I am just asking something that it is related to my field of expertise, my interests and my work and I am really interested to know your position". Fortunately he didn't continued his argument that I am a red but for the next 15 minutes he was trying, extremely unsuccessfully, to explain to me why in Thailand only government endorsed information should be allowed and why censorships is a democratic practice. I have to admit that after the first 5-7minutes I was not really listening to him because the same arguments were repeated continuously. After this I thanked him for his opinion (he never asked my view) and we wished good week-end to each other. I was deeply disappointed because this was not the opinion of an uneducated extremist. It was an opinion of a very well educated conservative person. I was disappointed also in a professional level (for us free access to information is the backbone of our business) but this is another story. In any case I am really sad when I see this opinion to be so widespread in Thailand. I really believe that only bad things can happen to this country if this opinion will finally prevail. Maybe in some years China will be a "paradise of free information flow" compared to Thailand.

Good night.

Regarding your conversation with your colleague these my impressions. He's basically right about both Abhisit and Thaksin. Abhisit IS progressive and if the Red Shirts had any brains they would select them as their leader as his goals are very closely aligned with theirs and not the "ruling elite" as is so often written. Thaksin is just the opposite and its all terribly ironic if so many people weren't dying.

As for his comments on censorship, I would not say that is at all an uncommon opinion here in Thailand regardless of political affiliation. Thailand is a putative democracy but it isn't really. Usually the only thing any Thai will know about democracy is that the most votes wins. They don't know what any of the other pillars of democracy are and maybe that's just as well because Thailand doesn't yet possess them. They know a few but certainly not all of the rights a citizen may hold under a democratic form of government and they know absolutely none of the responsibilities a citizen has toward the government or society under a democracy.

Take that limited knowledge of "what is democracy?" and overlay that on a nation with an average IQ of 89, a hierarchal social stratification and patron/client relationships whereby clients serve patrons who tell them how to think and act in return for "taking care" of them and you can see that extremist views can rock the boat tremendously. That's how we got the cult like Red movement.

It's not right and it has to change and that is what this government is here to do. It is Thailands transformative government. That's why it doesn't have a friend in any quarter. Too many entrenched interests. The people are starting to get it though.

[nakachalet]

so what is your point of putting all these narratives out for thaivisa readers....?

A rather long post before I go to bed; actually a continuation of my previous short post which was based on the following story:

Today was my first day to the office after 2 weeks absence. I was on a business travel abroad, I came back on Tuesday and the office was closed until yesterday. My day was really hectic and I was working like a machine the whole day. Before going home I decided to invite my Thai colleague for a cup of tea (he is not drinking alcohol) in our company's cafeteria. We work literally back-to-back the last 18 months and we make good company. We have both a high level of formal education and I appreciate his moderate style. We've never talked politics before but this afternoon I dared to ask his view over the situation.

I left him to talk for about 10 minutes without any interruption and to make a long story short for 9 out of the 10 minutes he was trying to convince me that the current government is the best thing that Thailand has ever had and that the current PM has been the most progressive PM that Thailand ever had. The other one minute was about the evil that is called Thaksin. I thanked him for his views and I replied with a very short comment and a question. I've told him "OK, I really do not know the political history of Thailand and since I trust your opinion I will accept that the PM is doing his best under the circumstances but since we both work on information systems and knowledge management can you explain to me why this progressive PM and his government has banned so many Internet sites and he is controlling so much the information flow?".

Parenthesis: Why I asked this? Because for me the right to free and non-censored information is a FUNDAMENTAL right of democracies and an absolute necessary element of progress. I work 20 years in the field of knowledge management and I've learned that free information makes GOOD! Always! Even if free includes exposure to extreme and radical positions from all political spectrum. Democracies will not control information; they will just educate people so they make sure they use the information for good reasons and they reject the "garbage". End of parenthesis.

At that moment something happened that made me to regret my "stupid decision" to start a political discussion with a Thai colleague. His face became red and his reply to me was the following: "Oh I see, you are supporting the others. I was never expecting that you are a red!". I politely told to him, "I am sorry maybe I didn't make myself clear, I am not supporting the reds I am just asking something that it is related to my field of expertise, my interests and my work and I am really interested to know your position". Fortunately he didn't continued his argument that I am a red but for the next 15 minutes he was trying, extremely unsuccessfully, to explain to me why in Thailand only government endorsed information should be allowed and why censorships is a democratic practice. I have to admit that after the first 5-7minutes I was not really listening to him because the same arguments were repeated continuously. After this I thanked him for his opinion (he never asked my view) and we wished good week-end to each other. I was deeply disappointed because this was not the opinion of an uneducated extremist. It was an opinion of a very well educated conservative person. I was disappointed also in a professional level (for us free access to information is the backbone of our business) but this is another story. In any case I am really sad when I see this opinion to be so widespread in Thailand. I really believe that only bad things can happen to this country if this opinion will finally prevail. Maybe in some years China will be a "paradise of free information flow" compared to Thailand.

Good night.

[nakachalet]

A rather long post before I go to bed; actually a continuation of my previous short post which was based on the following story:

Today was my first day to the office after 2 weeks absence. I was on a business travel abroad, I came back on Tuesday and the office was closed until yesterday. My day was really hectic and I was working like a machine the whole day. Before going home I decided to invite my Thai colleague for a cup of tea (he is not drinking alcohol) in our company's cafeteria. We work literally back-to-back the last 18 months and we make good company. We have both a high level of formal education and I appreciate his moderate style. We've never talked politics before but this afternoon I dared to ask his view over the situation. ....

Good night.

Regarding your conversation with your colleague these my impressions....Take that limited knowledge of "what is democracy?" and overlay that on a nation with an average IQ of 89....

lannarebirth....

my friend.... would you care to deliberate a little more on your comment and apparently your quote from somewhere about....

thai citizen on the average with an iq of 89....?

some months ago, there was also someone which i surely hope was not you again.... who used the same quote....

are you per chance a psy student of prof Wm from berkeley.... who proposed that blacks have lower intelligence.... which many choose to interpret it to mean that blacks as well as yellows et al.... are therefore inferior to whites....? you surely do not intend it to mean that.... do you, lannarebirth...?

besides, i surely would also appreciate your enlightening many of us in reference to:

1--the title of the referenced research and perhaps its validity

2--particularly the evaluative instruments used to measure the so-called iq of the sampled thai citizen (SB, WISC, WAIS, RIAS, WPPSI, UNIT et cal....)

many among thaivisa members are already quite acquainted with the understanding that even among intelligence testing instruments, there are significant variations in terms of neutrality of unfamiliar vocabularies used in different iq evaluative instruments....

and the resultant scores are also subject to interpretive variations....

with that said.... i'll still wanna wait for your enlightenment.... thx lannarebirth for the forthcoming wealth of info....

[lannarebirth]

A rather long post before I go to bed; actually a continuation of my previous short post which was based on the following story:

Today was my first day to the office after 2 weeks absence. I was on a business travel abroad, I came back on Tuesday and the office was closed until yesterday. My day was really hectic and I was working like a machine the whole day. Before going home I decided to invite my Thai colleague for a cup of tea (he is not drinking alcohol) in our company's cafeteria. We work literally back-to-back the last 18 months and we make good company. We have both a high level of formal education and I appreciate his moderate style. We've never talked politics before but this afternoon I dared to ask his view over the situation. ....

Good night.

Regarding your conversation with your colleague these my impressions....Take that limited knowledge of "what is democracy?" and overlay that on a nation with an average IQ of 89....

lannarebirth....

my friend.... would you care to deliberate a little more on your comment and apparently your quote from somewhere about....

thai citizen on the average with an iq of 89....?

some months ago, there was also someone which i surely hope was not you again.... who used the same quote....

That would not have been me.

are you per chance a psy student of prof Wm from berkeley.... who proposed that blacks have lower intelligence.... which many choose to interpret it to mean that blacks as well as yellows et al.... are therefore inferior to whites....? you surely do not intend it to mean that.... do you, lannarebirth...?

I did not attend UC Berkeley though I was born and attended university in that vicinity. No I did not intend to mean what you have insinuated.

besides, i surely would also appreciate your enlightening many of us in reference to:

1--the title of the referenced research and perhaps its validity

My recollection was from an article I read wherein the Queen was in despair about the slide in Thai youth's IQ scores. I cannot find the article right now but here's another one from about that time. Her comments nmay have been a year or two earlier.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2006/07/19/headlines/headlines_30009114.php

2--particularly the evaluative instruments used to measure the so-called iq of the sampled thai citizen (SB, WISC, WAIS, RIAS, WPPSI, UNIT et cal....)

many among thaivisa members are already quite acquainted with the understanding that even among intelligence testing instruments, there are significant variations in terms of neutrality of unfamiliar vocabularies used in different iq evaluative instruments....

and the resultant scores are also subject to interpretive variations....

with that said.... i'll still wanna wait for your enlightenment.... thx lannarebirth for the forthcoming wealth of info....

You are very welcome.

[wolf5370]

Every time I hear that the poor are left behind with democracy in a same sentence I start laughing since they are oxymoron. If they want to carry the poor by the rest of the society then you need to have communism or socialism government.

As we know both do not work in globalizes world. The poor have to realize they cannot continue to get handout from the middle and high class. They need to work to develop themselves and the best is to invest in their children education. But over her that is the last thing of the Thai poor in particular the Red Shirt that they think about. They brought their children to the rally site, endangering them. It seem over here the children are commodities, and can be used as the family pleases.

So Mr./Mrs. Red Shirt you want equality, become educated and work hard for it. No one is willing to give handout for ever

If only it was that easy here. Ignoring the fact of the cost of decent education and the need for famiies to be productive on the farm or householkd in a lot of caes, even those that do invest in their kids, find it is of little real help. The problem here is colour descrimination, pure and simple. Darker skinned, even well educated, people find a very early glass ceiling. They see less educated, often less bright and as time goes by experienced, colleagues getting those promotions because they went to the right schhols, have the right sounding surname and have lighter skin. There really are some problems in society here that need to be addressed and it is these 'sore patches' that people with their own agendas (and plenty of money) prod in their power games. Its hard to see how things could change here when the only leaders are after enhancing their bank accounts and not helping their fellow man. A real need for Ghandi to reincarnated here I think...

[wolf5370]

A rather long post before I go to bed; actually a continuation of my previous short post which was based on the following story:

Today was my first day to the office after 2 weeks absence. I was on a business travel abroad, I came back on Tuesday and the office was closed until yesterday. My day was really hectic and I was working like a machine the whole day. Before going home I decided to invite my Thai colleague for a cup of tea (he is not drinking alcohol) in our company's cafeteria. We work literally back-to-back the last 18 months and we make good company. We have both a high level of formal education and I appreciate his moderate style. We've never talked politics before but this afternoon I dared to ask his view over the situation. ....

Good night.

Regarding your conversation with your colleague these my impressions....Take that limited knowledge of "what is democracy?" and overlay that on a nation with an average IQ of 89....

lannarebirth....

my friend.... would you care to deliberate a little more on your comment and apparently your quote from somewhere about....

thai citizen on the average with an iq of 89....?

some months ago, there was also someone which i surely hope was not you again.... who used the same quote....

are you per chance a psy student of prof Wm from berkeley.... who proposed that blacks have lower intelligence.... which many choose to interpret it to mean that blacks as well as yellows et al.... are therefore inferior to whites....? you surely do not intend it to mean that.... do you, lannarebirth...?

besides, i surely would also appreciate your enlightening many of us in reference to:

1--the title of the referenced research and perhaps its validity

2--particularly the evaluative instruments used to measure the so-called iq of the sampled thai citizen (SB, WISC, WAIS, RIAS, WPPSI, UNIT et cal....)

many among thaivisa members are already quite acquainted with the understanding that even among intelligence testing instruments, there are significant variations in terms of neutrality of unfamiliar vocabularies used in different iq evaluative instruments....

and the resultant scores are also subject to interpretive variations....

with that said.... i'll still wanna wait for your enlightenment.... thx lannarebirth for the forthcoming wealth of info....

I am not sure I would put it down to IQ (or lack thereof) - I have always been somewhat skeptical in the grading process. I would polititely suggest it is more about the way people are educated here. People are rarely taught to do much more than regurgitate facts and follow equations. While you remain in their 'box' as it were (the information they were taught) they are happy and information will flow - however, ask a question that questions that which they hold to be true (because they were taught so) and you are attacking on two frontsw - you are disagreeing with them and thus causing their mloss of face and you are countering their teacher (father/mentor/whatever) - neither can be accepted with humility here - so up comes mr angry. This is why its practically impossible to change a Thai's mind (even your own wife) and why Thais avoid discussing things they know they will disagree on. Thais educated abroad or (perhaps) in International Schooling you may stand a better chance with.

just my thoughts on it.

[nakachalet]

lannarebirth

just finished reading the referenced aritcle....

noting that thai children between 13 to 18.... scored 88

however, as i posted previously, that ministry of edu failed to present:

the name of the evaluative instruments, whether it was SB, WISC, UNIT, RIAS, WPPSI et al

and the taxonomy and stratification were also not revealed....

if i were there, i would surely called him and his major presentation into question.... (if i only dare.... lol)

IF YOU WOULD.... PLS DO NOT CONTINUE TO USE HIM AS A POINT OF REFFERENCE.... it is an injustice to the thai children and thailand as well....

and i shall pursue this much further with the dept of ed next week, in reference to that study and that use of reference.... which imho is totally inappropriate and impractical in situation such as presented then....

thx lannarebirth again for this enlightening ref....

and when you did find the queen's comments in reference to this.... pls do email me at nakachalet at gmail dot com.... thx a bundle also...

you surely have made my stay in thailand much more interesting and challenging from now on....

A rather long post before I go to bed; actually a continuation of my previous short post which was based on the following story:

Today was my first day to the office after 2 weeks absence. I was on a business travel abroad, I came back on Tuesday and the office was closed until yesterday. My day was really hectic and I was working like a machine the whole day. Before going home I decided to invite my Thai colleague for a cup of tea (he is not drinking alcohol) in our company's cafeteria. We work literally back-to-back the last 18 months and we make good company. We have both a high level of formal education and I appreciate his moderate style. We've never talked politics before but this afternoon I dared to ask his view over the situation. ....

Good night.

Regarding your conversation with your colleague these my impressions....Take that limited knowledge of "what is democracy?" and overlay that on a nation with an average IQ of 89....

lannarebirth....

my friend.... would you care to deliberate a little more on your comment and apparently your quote from somewhere about....

thai citizen on the average with an iq of 89....?

some months ago, there was also someone which i surely hope was not you again.... who used the same quote....

That would not have been me.

are you per chance a psy student of prof Wm from berkeley.... who proposed that blacks have lower intelligence.... which many choose to interpret it to mean that blacks as well as yellows et al.... are therefore inferior to whites....? you surely do not intend it to mean that.... do you, lannarebirth...?

I did not attend UC Berkeley though I was born and attended university in that vicinity. No I did not intend to mean what you have insinuated.

besides, i surely would also appreciate your enlightening many of us in reference to:

1--the title of the referenced research and perhaps its validity

My recollection was from an article I read wherein the Queen was in despair about the slide in Thai youth's IQ scores. I cannot find the article right now but here's another one from about that time. Her comments nmay have been a year or two earlier.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2006/07/19/headlines/headlines_30009114.php

2--particularly the evaluative instruments used to measure the so-called iq of the sampled thai citizen (SB, WISC, WAIS, RIAS, WPPSI, UNIT et cal....)

many among thaivisa members are already quite acquainted with the understanding that even among intelligence testing instruments, there are significant variations in terms of neutrality of unfamiliar vocabularies used in different iq evaluative instruments....

and the resultant scores are also subject to interpretive variations....

with that said.... i'll still wanna wait for your enlightenment.... thx lannarebirth for the forthcoming wealth of info....

You are very welcome.

Edited May 21, 2010 by nakachalet

[nitecm]

Well all I can say is Mrs Redshirt (my wife not from Issan) is working hard to provide an education for herself and her 12 year old daughter.

After she married me, I started putting her through highschool, her daughter through highschool, and then probably both of them through university.

But not all the poor Thai ladies can find (or want) a white man to marry, how would you suggest the rest of the poor (family income of 4000bht a month) manage to send their children to school beyond age 12?

I believe your post fully justifies the redshirt cause, the Thai middle classes and higher classes refuse to help their poorer countrymen (against the teachings of their own religion) and so must be forced into civilization (and democracy?) to achieve parity with the rest of the world.

Education is free through Mathayom 6 now, thanks to the Abhisit government. My extended family lives in Surin. Just last week they picked up their free textbooks and the government stipend to purchase uniforms. There is no tuition. Lunch is provided through primary school.

As far as university there are government loans available to anyone who asks. I myself took out substantial government loans to pay for my university education.

You seem to know very little about Thailand despite living here and being married to a Thai woman.

The government is generous in medical and education even before Abhisit

you can get it but other may not

So he only can see the other side of the story

This is the biggest problem

[nitecm]

Well all I can say is Mrs Redshirt (my wife not from Issan) is working hard to provide an education for herself and her 12 year old daughter.

After she married me, I started putting her through highschool, her daughter through highschool, and then probably both of them through university.

But not all the poor Thai ladies can find (or want) a white man to marry, how would you suggest the rest of the poor (family income of 4000bht a month) manage to send their children to school beyond age 12?

I believe your post fully justifies the redshirt cause, the Thai middle classes and higher classes refuse to help their poorer countrymen (against the teachings of their own religion) and so must be forced into civilization (and democracy?) to achieve parity with the rest of the world.

Education is free through Mathayom 6 now, thanks to the Abhisit government. My extended family lives in Surin. Just last week they picked up their free textbooks and the government stipend to purchase uniforms. There is no tuition. Lunch is provided through primary school.

As far as university there are government loans available to anyone who asks. I myself took out substantial government loans to pay for my university education.

You seem to know very little about Thailand despite living here and being married to a Thai woman.

The government is generous in medical and education even before Abhisit

you can get it but other may not

So he only can see the other side of the story

This is the biggest problem

[nitecm]

Well all I can say is Mrs Redshirt (my wife not from Issan) is working hard to provide an education for herself and her 12 year old daughter.

After she married me, I started putting her through highschool, her daughter through highschool, and then probably both of them through university.

But not all the poor Thai ladies can find (or want) a white man to marry, how would you suggest the rest of the poor (family income of 4000bht a month) manage to send their children to school beyond age 12?

I believe your post fully justifies the redshirt cause, the Thai middle classes and higher classes refuse to help their poorer countrymen (against the teachings of their own religion) and so must be forced into civilization (and democracy?) to achieve parity with the rest of the world.

Education is free through Mathayom 6 now, thanks to the Abhisit government. My extended family lives in Surin. Just last week they picked up their free textbooks and the government stipend to purchase uniforms. There is no tuition. Lunch is provided through primary school.

As far as university there are government loans available to anyone who asks. I myself took out substantial government loans to pay for my university education.

You seem to know very little about Thailand despite living here and being married to a Thai woman.

The government is generous in medical and education even before Abhisit

you can get it but other may not

So he only can see the other side of the story

This is the biggest problem

[nakachalet]

lannarebirth....

finally.... most of us are incorrect in our assumption and thinking....

that we are mostly smarter and more superior than most....

some university camps seem to agree that.... as far as smartness and intelligence are concerned....

....and that of the Asian American population being significantly higher - than that of the White American population (based on the self-identification of those tested).

now folks, do not go and jump off into chao pra ya river now....

now.... is thailand counted as an asian country.... an interesting thought....

[KKvampire]

Well all I can say is Mrs Redshirt (my wife not from Issan) is working hard to provide an education for herself and her 12 year old daughter.

After she married me, I started putting her through highschool, her daughter through highschool, and then probably both of them through university.

But not all the poor Thai ladies can find (or want) a white man to marry, how would you suggest the rest of the poor (family income of 4000bht a month) manage to send their children to school beyond age 12?

I believe your post fully justifies the redshirt cause, the Thai middle classes and higher classes refuse to help their poorer countrymen (against the teachings of their own religion) and so must be forced into civilization (and democracy?) to achieve parity with the rest of the world.

Education is free through Mathayom 6 now, thanks to the Abhisit government. My extended family lives in Surin. Just last week they picked up their free textbooks and the government stipend to purchase uniforms. There is no tuition. Lunch is provided through primary school.

As far as university there are government loans available to anyone who asks. I myself took out substantial government loans to pay for my university education.

You seem to know very little about Thailand despite living here and being married to a Thai woman.

The Same in Angthong Province when I was teaching last year. Free Books education bags to M6. The Abhisist government made this start in Many provinces, or should I say give the local government education authorities the means to do this, How and if they use the money to benefit their children is another question I guess

[chadintheusa]

Having worked in the Thai education system I can testify that just because you attend a Thai high school doesn't mean that you'll come out any smarter. There are a percentage that just drift through and aren't allowed to fail if they can pay the fees.

To me Abhisit seems like a politician who is doing his best in a terrible situation and given the chance could do great things for Thailand. However due to the recent conflict it seems likely that he might not win the next election. I think he might even resign from his post as people will blame him for what happened, even though he tried to find another way out for the reds.

More acts of terrorism are likely in Thailand as the red harliners continue to fight on. This could result in elections being pushed back well into 2011, they don't understand how counterproductive their actions are. The reds have no basis to claim that they are not represented in the government, their parties have won the last 4 elections, even if they had to buy them. But governments that cheat to win are illegitimate, and should not be allowed to govern.

[Lite Beer]

A post linking to an article with questionable content has been deleted. Along with the replies to it. Posting a link to an article is the same as actually posting the words.

2) Not to express disrespect of the King of Thailand or anyone else in the Thai royal family, whether living or deceased, nor to criticize the monarchy as an institution. Speculation, comments and discussion of either a political or personal nature are not allowed when discussing HM The King or the Royal family. Discussion of the lese majeste law or lese majeste cases is permitted on the forum, providing no comment or speculation is made referencing the royal family. To breach this rule will result in immediate ban.

[Herm]

Been living here a very long time, in my opinion, the biggest problem in Thailand is the inability to use logic by most Thais which is not limited to the poor classes. This combined with short term thinking has held the whole country back somewhat.

Thaksin and the red shirt leaders are the best example of the inability to think logical and long term. Had they, instead of inciting hate with their speeches, insisted on a Gandhi style passive demonstration, they may have in the end succeeded, but in typical Thai manner, greed and emotions took over and in the end they lost.

The short term thinking is a typical Asean thing, One simple example, large Hotels are build without triple glazing because of initial cost, not realizing that this would be recouped within a short term and thereafter with energy savings .... the thinking is "I want it now.."

At the schooling level this is reflected by parents, especially within the up country and farming communities in the North East, that a new motorcycle is more important than "wasting" money or time on education for their children, passing the responsibility on to the government. However, even if, as is the case in Thailand, the government pays for the lot, children are often truant for many days because of some chores they have to do for the parents and leave school early to make money in some low grade job, but its money NOW

Abhisit has already reforms in place improving access to schooling and there are more coming, but what good does this do if a large proportion of the parents don't care ?