Thailand's Reds Return To Heartland In Disarray

[Democrat]

Yoshiwara. All I have seen on TV in Thailand is Propagandists talking. No questions allowed. What is being hidden from us. The democrat party and its democracy.

Speaking of mealy mouthed witterings. It is time the PM and his deputy hurry for the curry and resign. How can they unite the country after inciting so much trouble and so many deaths.

You too.

Supporting the burning down of Thai working people's livelihoods.

You are the enemies of working people.

Like Thaksin always blaming others for actions your beloved reds undertook.

Get out of Bangkok and don't come back.

You support the burning down of peoples livelihoods. That is a disgusting thing to support. I do not support rioting, but I do not support 1 death even more. My beloved reds you really are in a dream world. My beloved Thai people, Yes. What has bangkok to do with it. This is Thailand. Negative attitude's are not required in this country. If you can see the whole community, working with someone that has been involved in deaths of their brothers and sisters you need to think again. Does not matter what you think it matters what the Thais think. And if you think Abh and Thugs can do it, Good luck to you, but you are wrong. But most of all good luck to Thailand and its people, that is all of Thailand

[Democrat]

What do you want? A serie of unrests/insurrections? In such a case, continue endless inflammmatory postings.....It is not my option.

So, instead to polemicate over the past conflict, we should focus on the issues and how to fix them. There are real issues in Northern provinces and they must be adressed. The first thing to do is to start a dialog which should begin to defuse the situation.

If we continue inflammatory discussions, no way we will succeed. It does not mean that everything is forgotten: justice has to be done through the regular channels but in the same time, Thais have to explain each other...

First step, how to find representatives of the Population of Northern Regions? My solution: by opening temporary local committees in every village in the Northern Provinces, then those committees will name delegates to some regional committees in order to summarize the issues and claims. So through this system of committees, new leaders should emerge. and the dialog can start after...

In reality whoever has the money will run for the PPP and buy enough votes to get elected. Then they will work tirelessly to fill their own bank accounts while doing nothing for the people in the north.

Urrh and us democrats we NEVER buy votes here in Thailand, and of course the Bhumjai Party NEVER buy votes, etc. You're imagination would not even come close to the amount of money spent. Imagine all that money going to help Thailand. LOS Big, Big. I do have to tell you though you are right whatever party gets elected they will not spend money on the north, because according to most pundits Bangkok is Thailand? Happy to say wrong!

[Democrat]

Broken record 'Democrat'.

Your fantasies will not get fuelled here. Abhisit is more likely to face a Nobel Peace Prize than see the Hague - unless he chooses to holiday there.

Yes continual Human rights Abuses get awarded Noble Prizes, in your imagination do they. By the way netherlands do not allow brits to holiday there, you have to be from one of those SA nations.

[ChiangMaiThai]

"So it will be no surprise if we hear of more violent riots across the country, especially the north and northeast, because these people do not have faith in the election process, so they turn to violent alternatives."

No "faith"?? How about just a little patience?? ....Elections are coming up soon.

Either these folks are khon jai ron, or they are really worried that they will have difficulty selling their votes next election.

The Red Shirts are copying the behavior of the Yellow Shirts. They introduced mob rule.

Mate,

You're leaving yourself open to a massive flaming there, the Yellows looked like boy scouts compared the the antics of the reds when they were forced to leave.

You are right that the yellows started with mob rule, but the reds have now shown that they are simply thugs and that they couldn't give a sh1t about their own country. They should never be allowed to run anything, yet alone a country.

These people are not Thai, they are simply scum.

Tom.

The yellow mob would have turned violent just as the reds did if they hadn't gotten their way. Remember when the police went to the airport and they seized all their equipment? The only reason the yellow mob ended their rally peacefully is that they had the right people on their side and they got their way. That's why any yellow who speaks out against the red rally simply lacks credibility. They started the same way and ended differently only because the people at the top chose to side one way.

[rixalex]

The only reason the yellow mob ended their rally peacefully is that they had the right people on their side and they got their way.

There is no way to know what would have happened. One can only speculate. Speculation doesn't mean much, and you can't condemn people for actions they haven't commited, simply because you think them capable.

That's why any yellow who speaks out against the red rally simply lacks credibility.

I personally don't think the yellows have had much credibility since the airport nonsense anyway, but frankly with everything that has happened in the last couple of months, why are we talking about the yellows? Yes they created disruption in the past and yes they should have been punished for that, but really, come on - that is old news that has been completely overshadowed and outdone now by the acts of the reds.

You question the credibility of the yellows, but i ask you what credibility does the red movement have when the actions it claimed to be fighting against - ie government's illegally being overthrown, minority groups interfering with democracy - it has shown itself happy and ready to commit itself.

If you are fighting against something that you yourself are ready to commit, you are not fighting against it at all.

If, as many predicted a few weeks back, the reds' actions had led to a coup and from the elections that followed the reds took power, how many reds would we see out on the streets protesting against military interference?

[mich]

I have just read the whole thread on this, and it seems nobody has mentioned the the PM offered early elections and a five point road map. His deputy also handed himself in to DSI as requested by the red shirts.

The redshirts could have gone home with a victory and saving face if that is truely what they wanted.

They did not, they then put up further demands which were unreasonable.

The government bent over backwards to help the red shirts but the leaders just did not want to know.

It seems they had a lot more in mind and that was shown when the military HAD to move in to dispan them.

The red shirts need to be educated in what democracy really means.

[Tejas]

I have just read the whole thread on this, and it seems nobody has mentioned the the PM offered early elections and a five point road map. His deputy also handed himself in to DSI as requested by the red shirts.

The redshirts could have gone home with a victory and saving face if that is truely what they wanted.

They did not, they then put up further demands which were unreasonable.

The government bent over backwards to help the red shirts but the leaders just did not want to know.

It seems they had a lot more in mind and that was shown when the military HAD to move in to dispan them.

The red shirts need to be educated in what democracy really means.

Right............it is almost beyond belief what this government decided to offer them after they (the Reds)did everything in their power to cause violence.

What the PM gave the Reds was an extraordinary gift and they (Thaksin) refused to accept it.

Imagine this: An angry mob moves on Washington DC, breaks into government buildings, uses explosive devices and guns, kills people, causes mass transit to stop running, threatens to burn the city down.............etc.,.............and the President of the United States decides to "hold elections early," etc.

It would never happen in one million years!

[thailandpeter2]

I have just read the whole thread on this, and it seems nobody has mentioned the the PM offered early elections and a five point road map. His deputy also handed himself in to DSI as requested by the red shirts.

The redshirts could have gone home with a victory and saving face if that is truely what they wanted.

They did not, they then put up further demands which were unreasonable.

The government bent over backwards to help the red shirts but the leaders just did not want to know.

It seems they had a lot more in mind and that was shown when the military HAD to move in to dispan them.

The red shirts need to be educated in what democracy really means.

Right............it is almost beyond belief what this government decided to offer them after they (the Reds)did everything in their power to cause violence.

What the PM gave the Reds was an extraordinary gift and they (Thaksin) refused to accept it.

Imagine this: An angry mob moves on Washington DC, breaks into government buildings, uses explosive devices and guns, kills people, causes mass transit to stop running, threatens to burn the city down.............etc.,.............and the President of the United States decides to "hold elections early," etc.

It would never happen in one million years!

to all the posters who seem to condone the burning of buildings in thailand, just one question:

in order to be fair - if the reds are allowed to burn buildings in bangkok, would that also mean that the yellows/their political opponents are now allowed to go to khon kaen or udon or ubol and burn the houses of the reds? after all, it would not be personal - just a political struggle...

i think the only way to go forward is:

- for the government, to make sure for the moment that the country is secure

- then, to extend the olive branch to the moderate sectors of any democrary movement really intending to advance the development of the poorer population/regions in thailand and to try to develop the country in accordance with them.

- for the moderate read/democracy groups in opposition to the government to distance themselves from thaksin and the people who have advocated or taken part the receont protests and following violent incidents, set up a new grassroots movement, maybe register a new political party, etc., so that they can partake in the next elections. also, they should better not be connected to phuea thai anyway, as this party is lead by the old school politicians and these are surely NOT on the side of the poor and economically disadvantaged...

also, as all this needs time, i do not see any advantage in the government stepping down soon or in snap elections. that would only result in more political violence, for example government candidates not being able to campaign i chiang mai, or udon, and therefore surely not in free and fair elections. and then, whoever wins them, the other side would protest against the outcome again. in the meantime, economy would go further down the drain. it will get hard enough (probably ESPECIALLY for the lower middle class - employees, workers, etc., who for example would not have much savings to get over this period) in the next months and maybe years already anyway, even without further political disturbances...

[Democrat]

I have just read the whole thread on this, and it seems nobody has mentioned the the PM offered early elections and a five point road map. His deputy also handed himself in to DSI as requested by the red shirts.

The redshirts could have gone home with a victory and saving face if that is truely what they wanted.

They did not, they then put up further demands which were unreasonable.

The government bent over backwards to help the red shirts but the leaders just did not want to know.

It seems they had a lot more in mind and that was shown when the military HAD to move in to dispan them.

The red shirts need to be educated in what democracy really means.

You are totally right. Because the red clan had got away with so much they thought they could achieve a totally victory, they were wrong.

My friend, a nurse informed me that three arsonists who torched government office in Ubon were shot dead. She received them at hospital.

And Mr Thaksin you are really happy about the three people being shot dead.

[Ulysses G.]

I have just read the whole thread on this, and it seems nobody has mentioned the the PM offered early elections and a five point road map. His deputy also handed himself in to DSI as requested by the red shirts.

The redshirts could have gone home with a victory and saving face if that is truely what they wanted.

They did not, they then put up further demands which were unreasonable.

The government bent over backwards to help the red shirts but the leaders just did not want to know.

It seems they had a lot more in mind and that was shown when the military HAD to move in to dispan them.

The red shirts need to be educated in what democracy really means.

This post says it all in a nutshell. Someone in control of the protesters got greedy for more than the PM could give in good conscience and they ended up with nothing.

[noahvail]

You might be very right, I myself was vastly more shocked by Thai troops shooting at Thai citizens as compared to the buildings that went up in flames, but I guess that's a question of getting your priorities straight.

No, don't get that one.

There was nothing shocking about troops firing at self-declared terrorists who invariably fired first. Oh ! and they were illegally occupying the protest site.

Watching rampaging terrorists indescriminately looting and burning Bangkok property was truly shocking.

Agree with you, Chaimai. Troops returning fire, that's the norm throughout the world.

But so many say, "Thai troops killing Thais!" They seem to forget that it's Thais killing Thais when the troops are killed.

[seahorse]

I have just read the whole thread on this, and it seems nobody has mentioned the the PM offered early elections and a five point road map. His deputy also handed himself in to DSI as requested by the red shirts.

The redshirts could have gone home with a victory and saving face if that is truely what they wanted.

They did not, they then put up further demands which were unreasonable.

The government bent over backwards to help the red shirts but the leaders just did not want to know.

It seems they had a lot more in mind and that was shown when the military HAD to move in to dispan them.

The red shirts need to be educated in what democracy really means.

This post says it all in a nutshell. Someone in control of the protesters got greedy for more than the PM could give in good conscience and they ended up with nothing.

Do you really think the objective is democracy? I think the arson and looting were a big wake up call for many people. Already we have car bombs. They are "awaiting instructions." What next?

[hammered]

I have just read the whole thread on this, and it seems nobody has mentioned the the PM offered early elections and a five point road map. His deputy also handed himself in to DSI as requested by the red shirts.

The redshirts could have gone home with a victory and saving face if that is truely what they wanted.

They did not, they then put up further demands which were unreasonable.

The government bent over backwards to help the red shirts but the leaders just did not want to know.

It seems they had a lot more in mind and that was shown when the military HAD to move in to dispan them.

The red shirts need to be educated in what democracy really means.

This post says it all in a nutshell. Someone in control of the protesters got greedy for more than the PM could give in good conscience and they ended up with nothing.

Do you really think the objective is democracy? I think the arson and looting were a big wake up call for many people. Already we have car bombs. They are "awaiting instructions." What next?

When the red leadership were divided over accepting what was a reasonable offer and the hardliners won out it showed the split between the minorty on the leadership who did want democracy and the majority who owed allegiance to some higher value or person (WSJ tells us who)

It will be interesting to see if the minority leaders can break from the others but considering the Matichon story maybe not. Veera with his abandonment of the movement before the utter terror and anarchy may be in a position to see a lot lighter sentence than those who remained and who made the inciteful speeches.

Indeed this is a wake up call for all those who hoped it would go away or wouldnt effect them. How this group manouvers is going tobe very interesting. The moves of the redical reds are already openly talked about. The onl;y questions that remain are will the moderate reds break from them and how will those suddenly woken up react.

[yoshiwara]

What do you want? A serie of unrests/insurrections? In such a case, continue endless inflammmatory postings.....It is not my option.

So, instead to polemicate over the past conflict, we should focus on the issues and how to fix them. There are real issues in Northern provinces and they must be adressed. The first thing to do is to start a dialog which should begin to defuse the situation.

If we continue inflammatory discussions, no way we will succeed. It does not mean that everything is forgotten: justice has to be done through the regular channels but in the same time, Thais have to explain each other...

First step, how to find representatives of the Population of Northern Regions? My solution: by opening temporary local committees in every village in the Northern Provinces, then those committees will name delegates to some regional committees in order to summarize the issues and claims. So through this system of committees, new leaders should emerge. and the dialog can start after...

In reality whoever has the money will run for the PPP and buy enough votes to get elected. Then they will work tirelessly to fill their own bank accounts while doing nothing for the people in the north.

Urrh and us democrats we NEVER buy votes here in Thailand, and of course the Bhumjai Party NEVER buy votes, etc. You're imagination would not even come close to the amount of money spent. Imagine all that money going to help Thailand. LOS Big, Big. I do have to tell you though you are right whatever party gets elected they will not spend money on the north, because according to most pundits Bangkok is Thailand? Happy to say wrong!

The reds do not have any economic demands.

There is no programme.

Only Thaksin as Father Christmas.

[Skywalker69]

It`s not likely that Thaksin will return to Thailand. However as he is now a Citizen of Montenegro, he may be soon PM there. Then he could get all his Red followers to join him there. Don't know how good Rice is growing there, but the Climate is nice.

100% Agree

[Skywalker69]

fyi . the heartland of thailand is bangkok and the central provinces , NOT the north or northeast (issan).

How do you think BKK would get along if Issan stopped the delivery of food to BKK and all the Issan people working in BKK just packed up and went home? Where do you think the working class comes from? Without them, how would the elite in BKK get by?

Curious.

Curious?

I don't think so.

The red attack on Bangkok was an attack on the working class of Bangkok.

The workers of Bangkok showed their contempt for the Thaksin forces by not supporting them.

Not one neighbourhood.

Reply of the day, thanks!

[Thai at Heart]

It`s not likely that Thaksin will return to Thailand. However as he is now a Citizen of Montenegro, he may be soon PM there. Then he could get all his Red followers to join him there. Don't know how good Rice is growing there, but the Climate is nice.

100% Agree

Careful what you wish for. Montenegro probably has an army.

Fortunately it only has 2500 men.

[clown]

It`s not likely that Thaksin will return to Thailand. However as he is now a Citizen of Montenegro, he may be soon PM there. Then he could get all his Red followers to join him there. Don't know how good Rice is growing there, but the Climate is nice.

100% Agree

Careful what you wish for. Montenegro probably has an army.

Fortunately it only has 2500 men.

I bet those 2,500 are more effective than Thailand's 50,000 that were supposedly deployed in Bangkok.

[sjaak327]

You might be very right, I myself was vastly more shocked by Thai troops shooting at Thai citizens as compared to the buildings that went up in flames, but I guess that's a question of getting your priorities straight.

No, don't get that one.

There was nothing shocking about troops firing at self-declared terrorists who invariably fired first. Oh ! and they were illegally occupying the protest site.

Watching rampaging terrorists indescriminately looting and burning Bangkok property was truly shocking.

You need to first understand the meaning of the word terrorist, what we have seen are not terrorist by any stretch of the imagination. They were Thai citizens protesting for what they believe in. Also I am very much in doubt they fired first. The first attack on them seemed to me pretty much unprovoked. In any case, the army is not the body that should disperse demonstrations.

It seems the word terrorist is pretty much inflated in Thailand nowadays.

Nope, don't get that either. Try this for education:-

terrorist [ˈtɛrərɪst] n (Government, Politics & Diplomacy) a. a person who employs terror or terrorism, esp as a political weaponb. (as modifier) terrorist tactics

I think the video evidence is there to prove that the red leadership and the red guard (+ a few black shirts, etc) were indeed inciting terror as a political weapon. End of story, court cases to follow.

Yeah by a legal system that is known the world over to be utterly corrupt. Again the fact that the current government is yelling terrorists doesn't make the subjects real terrorists. But I do believe that same dodgy legal system will do away with the current goverenment as well, if I remember correctly they are pretty much corrupt in the same way as PPP/TRT.

Silly that corruption on one side is magnified whilst on the other side it is suddenly "okay".

[way2muchcoffee]

Yeah by a legal system that is known the world over to be utterly corrupt. Again the fact that the current government is yelling terrorists doesn't make the subjects real terrorists. But I do believe that same dodgy legal system will do away with the current goverenment as well, if I remember correctly they are pretty much corrupt in the same way as PPP/TRT.

Silly that corruption on one side is magnified whilst on the other side it is suddenly "okay".

I guess you don't remember correctly then. Feel free to explain your point though. If you clearly explain yourself it'll be easier argue against you.

[sjaak327]

Yeah by a legal system that is known the world over to be utterly corrupt. Again the fact that the current government is yelling terrorists doesn't make the subjects real terrorists. But I do believe that same dodgy legal system will do away with the current goverenment as well, if I remember correctly they are pretty much corrupt in the same way as PPP/TRT.

Silly that corruption on one side is magnified whilst on the other side it is suddenly "okay".

I guess you don't remember correctly then. Feel free to explain your point though. If you clearly explain yourself it'll be easier argue against you.

Whilst that isn't the main point of my argument, the main point simply is that the red shirts aren't terrorists. I do remember http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Thai-Electio...is-t355693.html

[clown]

When the Democrat party is eventually dissolved, what will happen if no elections are called before 2011? Wouldn't then Puea Thai automatically hold the majority? This could turn out ugly for the Democrats.

[Jingthing]

When the Democrat party is eventually dissolved, what will happen if no elections are called before 2011? Wouldn't then Puea Thai automatically hold the majority? This could turn out ugly for the Democrats.

If, not when. Too many variables before then to make any predictions. At the current time, however, it is fair to assume that whoever has power will be met with angry opposition and probably more MOBS. Free and fair elections with results that will be accepted are not something that can happen currently in Thailand. This isn't a red vs. yellow thing, this is a systematic crisis at the very core of the future existence of Thailand.

Edited May 23, 2010 by Jingthing

[way2muchcoffee]

Yeah by a legal system that is known the world over to be utterly corrupt. Again the fact that the current government is yelling terrorists doesn't make the subjects real terrorists. But I do believe that same dodgy legal system will do away with the current goverenment as well, if I remember correctly they are pretty much corrupt in the same way as PPP/TRT.

Silly that corruption on one side is magnified whilst on the other side it is suddenly "okay".

I guess you don't remember correctly then. Feel free to explain your point though. If you clearly explain yourself it'll be easier argue against you.

Whilst that isn't the main point of my argument, the main point simply is that the red shirts aren't terrorists. I do remember http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Thai-Electio...is-t355693.html

So after reading that thread in its entirety you will agree that the present allegations against the Democrats are nothing at all like those that resulted in the dissolution of either the TRT or PPP.

Edited May 23, 2010 by way2muchcoffee

[Skywalker69]

Just saw a report on Al Jazeera talking about a major red leader there saying the new red movement will be like south Thailand's terrorism, with random attacks on innocent people in places like malls. It seems credible. How long before the USA and Europe get on board with the Thai government to root out these TERRORISTS? You think tourism is dead now, wait until they actually follow through on killing masses of civilians and tourists with a random bomb. Shame on the reds if they copy the southern Muslim radicals. Shame on them for even THREATENING this. That in itself is a soft form of terrorism. There are peaceful avenues for change possible in Thailand, now more than ever. Where is the regard for human life?

Scary senario, lets hope it will never happen.

[sjaak327]

Yeah by a legal system that is known the world over to be utterly corrupt. Again the fact that the current government is yelling terrorists doesn't make the subjects real terrorists. But I do believe that same dodgy legal system will do away with the current goverenment as well, if I remember correctly they are pretty much corrupt in the same way as PPP/TRT.

Silly that corruption on one side is magnified whilst on the other side it is suddenly "okay".

I guess you don't remember correctly then. Feel free to explain your point though. If you clearly explain yourself it'll be easier argue against you.

Whilst that isn't the main point of my argument, the main point simply is that the red shirts aren't terrorists. I do remember http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Thai-Electio...is-t355693.html

So after reading that thread in its entirety you will agree that the present allegations against the Democrats are nothing at all like those that resulted in the dissolution of either the TRT or PPP.

You are either corrupt or you aren't, or are you suggesting the Demcocrats have done nothing wrong ?. I tell you one thing, they have a PM who willingly ordered the army to shoot at protestors, that alone should be reason enough to end his term. But then again this is Thailand, where one PM got the boot for accepting money to appear in a cooking show, whilst another one gets away with the deads of many protestors.

[otherstuff1957]

When the Democrat party is eventually dissolved, what will happen if no elections are called before 2011? Wouldn't then Puea Thai automatically hold the majority? This could turn out ugly for the Democrats.

First of all, the case against them is not a slam-dunk. The contributions were made in 2006, the law that made those contributions illegal was passed in 2007, so they may be convicted for a retroactively applied law, or they may not. The second offense was a technicality (their campaign signs were too small) and may not call for the utmost penalty.

Secondly, even if the party is dissolved, only the party list MPs and party executives - about 33 seats will be kicked out of Parliament. The rest will keep their seats & can form a new party. The 33 seats that are lost will be replaced in a by-election which will probably favor the same party.

Finally, if the Dems are dissolved, Puea Thai still only has 204 seats out of 475, (while the 'new Democrats' would have about 170 - 175) they would still need to conivince two of the smaller parties to join them in a coaltion in order to take over Parliament.

[Skywalker69]

Go ahead

Blame the yellows for having their own protests

blame the army for tossing out a corrupt Prime Minister

blame the judges who convicted the PPP of electoral fraud

blame the foreigners who brought investment and jobs

blame the elites for being more successful

blame the red leaders for lying to them

blame Thaksin for hiring them

Why take personal responsibility for the crimes they have committed?

I just love love this post, thanks a lot. You made my day

[Skywalker69]

If any human, the key you have to be a human, sees what these terrorist have done in the area they stayed (Ratchaprasong) for weeks, will never give the hero welcome. They lived and destroyed everything they could like wild animals.

Don't be silly. They lived very organised and cleanly, and didn't destroy anything until the end and that was done by a few extremists.

This mayham was planed before the reds came down to Bangkok!

[Skywalker69]

they were noisy, disruptive, confusing and messy, big deal... hardly a crime worthy of execution. Now over 80 people are dead...mostly protestors, mostly unarmed...do we think getting shot at may have got a few people mad enough to run amok? Shopping malls can be rebuilt human beings can't... Seems so many people happy to go back to the same old same old...if its not over then that's because maybe noone on any side has learned anything new!

Certainly that appears to include you with your meally-mouthed witterings about 'protestors' and 'unarmed'.

First the riot.

Then the cover-up of responsibility.

When that fails, the fake reds.

They all learnt from Mr. T 100% denyal.