Time To Leave Bangkok

[chrisll]

I feel the troubles in thailand will only get worse and Bangkok will end up like the south of Thailand.Is it time for westerners to leave ,i think so.what do you think?

[mikenyork]

I suspect we have all had feelings like this in the past few months. But there are very, very great differences between this conflict and the one with the south. A few of these differences include: 1) the conflict with the south is inter-ethnic. Southern Muslims speak a completely different language from Thai and practice a different religion. While it is true that the Northeast speaks a different language from central Thai, central province and Issan Thai are pretty much intelligible to native speakers, even if they sound like different languages. The north-easterners cannot easily consider themselves a separate people from the central province Thais. they know very well that both groups are from the same ethnic group and share a common history, culture and language stretching back hundreds if not thousands of years. 2) there is far more social and regional integration between the central and northeast (and northern) provinces than there is between the central provinces and the south, which is economically, as well as socially, much more insular. Most northeast families have family members who work and live in Bangkok. That's not remotely true for far-southerners. 3) Westerners have not yet been the target of the conflict between the reds and the yellows in any way. The radical Muslim fringe in the south (that's not, by any stretch all of the Muslims there) hate the west. North-easterners, even those with radical, anti-monarchy ideas, have not expressed any anti-farang feelings that I'm aware of.

But, I know seeing what I've seen over the last months makes me uncomfortable. And I'm not surprised that others share those feelings. We will each have to decide for ourselves, of course, but for now I'm staying put. I love this place, all its frustrations notwithstanding. And the idea that the jerks who lead the red shirts would drive me out of here rankles me besides.

Thanks for the opportunity to share my thoughts and feelings

[neverdie]

why is this in the language sub forum?

[chrisll]

I suspect we have all had feelings like this in the past few months. But there are very, very great differences between this conflict and the one with the south. A few of these differences include: 1) the conflict with the south is inter-ethnic. Southern Muslims speak a completely different language from Thai and practice a different religion. While it is true that the Northeast speaks a different language from central Thai, central province and Issan Thai are pretty much intelligible to native speakers, even if they sound like different languages. The north-easterners cannot easily consider themselves a separate people from the central province Thais. they know very well that both groups are from the same ethnic group and share a common history, culture and language stretching back hundreds if not thousands of years. 2) there is far more social and regional integration between the central and northeast (and northern) provinces than there is between the central provinces and the south, which is economically, as well as socially, much more insular. Most northeast families have family members who work and live in Bangkok. That's not remotely true for far-southerners. 3) Westerners have not yet been the target of the conflict between the reds and the yellows in any way. The radical Muslim fringe in the south (that's not, by any stretch all of the Muslims there) hate the west. North-easterners, even those with radical, anti-monarchy ideas, have not expressed any anti-farang feelings that I'm aware of.

But, I know seeing what I've seen over the last months makes me uncomfortable. And I'm not surprised that others share those feelings. We will each have to decide for ourselves, of course, but for now I'm staying put. I love this place, all its frustrations notwithstanding. And the idea that the jerks who lead the red shirts would drive me out of here rankles me besides.

Thanks for the opportunity to share my thoughts and feelings

Great reply,i love sorry like the place too but i dont want risk my life for it so much.

[Tod Daniels]

Last time I checked (which I do quite often ), the thais; even during this violent protest didn't specifically target foreigners.

While situational awareness seems to be in short supply here (given the thai penchant for wandering willy-nilly along the sidewalk as if they were the only ones using it ), a general awareness of what's going on around you can and does go a long way in keeping you (a foreigner) safe and out of harms way.

Honestly, I didn't give it a second thought and I live less than 2 kilometers from both Rachaprasong & Lumpini.

Don't read more into this than there was; stay out of areas which have protestors, keep your wits about you and you'll be fine here. It's certainly NOTHING like living in Afghanistan, or Gaza as far as overall danger . ..

I must however concur with 'neverdie'; <deleted> is this doing in the thai LANGUAGE forum?

[Colabamumbai]

I think Be Positive, this is not the first time Thailand has had problems.

[sbk]

Covered many times and in many forums but I don't think the language forum is the appropriate place to do so.

[321niti123]

Wrong section??? Doesn't look like it has anything to do in language, maybe general would be better, but with the new temporary policy it might be closed.

[leedstony]

im staying put!!

labour government let too many pakistanis in my country Ingland!

and they are just horrible people, then mixed with the benefit cheating white trash scum

no way! im staying here

[thrilled]

Even though things seem to be A mess now,it should be ok in A few weeks or months.Don't let this little bit get to ya.Just relax and go with the flow.Many countries have problems.Look at the us in the 60's.Just about every city in the east was on fire at some point.

[Rumblecat]

labour government let too many pakistanis in my country Ingland!

and they are just horrible people...

I'd bet that most of these 'horrible' pakistanis can at least spell "England" right...

[cdnvic]

im staying put!!

labour government let too many pakistanis in my country Ingland!

and they are just horrible people, then mixed with the benefit cheating white trash scum

no way! im staying here

Normally I'd delete such a racist comment but will leave it with a warning because the fact that you misspelled "England" may bring some levity to others. Notably Pakistanis who can spell it.

Racist comments like the above are not acceptable here and any further such comments will result in loss of posting rights and/or suspension.

[w11guy]

Just to put this in context, if anyone is thinking of coming back to the UK, then read what the UK government says...

The current terrorism threat level is Severe. This means that a terrorist attack is highly likely.

[w11guy]

im staying put!!

labour government let too many pakistanis in my country Ingland!

and they are just horrible people, then mixed with the benefit cheating white trash scum

no way! im staying here

It almost makes you embarrassed to admit you're British when you see comments like this. Luckily, not everyone in the UK has these views. Many of us welcome foreigners and enjoy the extra culture they bring to our country.

[rodcourt49]

Last time I checked (which I do quite often ), the thais; even during this violent protest didn't specifically target foreigners.

While situational awareness seems to be in short supply here (given the thai penchant for wandering willy-nilly along the sidewalk as if they were the only ones using it ), a general awareness of what's going on around you can and does go a long way in keeping you (a foreigner) safe and out of harms way.

Honestly, I didn't give it a second thought and I live less than 2 kilometers from both Rachaprasong & Lumpini.

Don't read more into this than there was; stay out of areas which have protestors, keep your wits about you and you'll be fine here. It's certainly NOTHING like living in Afghanistan, or Gaza as far as overall danger . ..

I must however concur with 'neverdie'; <deleted> is this doing in the thai LANGUAGE forum?

..most Thais I've had contact with during this time (particularly the resulting violence and deaths), are quite embarrassed to speak openly about the damage it has done to their country..

[Lammbock]

Time To Leave Bangkok

I don't think so.

Edited May 25, 2010 by Lammbock

[bolx]

Time To Leave Bangkok

I don't think so.

Where is safe in the World these days?

'terrorists' and nutters everywhere.

Bangkok/Thailand still as safe as anywhere.

[phetaroi]

Even though things seem to be A mess now,it should be ok in A few weeks or months.Don't let this little bit get to ya.Just relax and go with the flow.Many countries have problems.Look at the us in the 60's.Just about every city in the east was on fire at some point.

First you say this is just a "little bit", then you compare this to what you say are the widespread riots of the 60s. And "just about every city in the east" was not on firs at some point back in the 60s.

[phetaroi]

Where is safe in the World these days?

'terrorists' and nutters everywhere.

Bangkok/Thailand still as safe as anywhere.

On the one hand, I think you're right that there is a risk of terrorism in many places in the world today.

But, I don't think the way some of us are processing that fact, necessarily means that there are not other things to consider.

For example, how would you compare the role of the army during the crack-down here, with the role of National Guard during such a crackdown in the U.S.?

How would you compare the role of the police at keeping order during the "rioting" here, with the role of police in keeping order during "rioting" in the U.S.?

How would you compare the ability of the Thai government to evacuate people to a safer and adequate location, to the ability of the U.S. government to do the same?

How would you compare the ability of the Thai government to supply the city with adequate food and water and medicines during such an emergency, as compared to the U.S.?

The number 1 target in Thailand would logically be Bangkok, number 2 Chiang Mai, and after that I'm not sure there are any key targets. In the States there are hundreds of cities, and they won't all be targets.

How well -- in a crisis like this one -- can the average farang work through things considering language barriers and an understandable "Thais first" attitude?

But more, perhaps, than anything else -- is America seriously working on identifying and stopping terrorist attacks? Do you feel confident that Thailand is seriously working in the same way and is competent to do so?

As I've watched these various discussions unfold over the past week, one thing that occurred to me over and over again is what I see as a lack of a Thai national understanding that problems are solved when you actually work at solving them. There's no question that life in Thailand -- almost no matter where you live -- has improved in quality over recent years. Health services and pollution control, availability of things like paved roads into villages and electricity, food cleanliness, and so forth, are certainly better now than when I came here the first time in 1987. But did those improvements take place as a result of long-term planning? Or did those improvements just occur because overall, money poured into the country with its rise in economic viability and as standards of living improved, so did peoples' expectations and willingness to pay for a higher standard. I think it's the latter, because I don't see a lot of strategic problem solving. Best example -- aside from the current crisis -- the southern problem. What concrete things that are really planned out well have you seen to that MAJOR problem that has cost over 3,000 lives, including through beheadings? No, what I see is the oh, things will work out attitude. Sometimes things do just work out...but usually you have to solve significant problems.

I'm returning to the States within the week, after living here for the past year. Yeah, I know, don't let the door hit me in the ass. For me, if I look at it like a proverbial scales, the things on the positive side have shrunk considerably, and the scales just clunked over heavily to the negative side.

I wish Thais well in fixing things; I hope they do. I wish all of you who stay well. But Thais and farang alike need to stop always saying mai pben rai. "Don't sweat the small stuff" is a fine philosophy...but sometimes here I'm not sure there's an ability for many to say, "Oh, but wait...that's not a "small stuff". To throw in one more cliche, "If Thais always do what they've always done," then no core problems will have been solved.

[ExpatJ]

Where is safe in the World these days?

'terrorists' and nutters everywhere.

Bangkok/Thailand still as safe as anywhere.

On the one hand, I think you're right that there is a risk of terrorism in many places in the world today.

But, I don't think the way some of us are processing that fact, necessarily means that there are not other things to consider.

For example, how would you compare the role of the army during the crack-down here, with the role of National Guard during such a crackdown in the U.S.?

How would you compare the role of the police at keeping order during the "rioting" here, with the role of police in keeping order during "rioting" in the U.S.?

How would you compare the ability of the Thai government to evacuate people to a safer and adequate location, to the ability of the U.S. government to do the same?

How would you compare the ability of the Thai government to supply the city with adequate food and water and medicines during such an emergency, as compared to the U.S.?

The number 1 target in Thailand would logically be Bangkok, number 2 Chiang Mai, and after that I'm not sure there are any key targets. In the States there are hundreds of cities, and they won't all be targets.

How well -- in a crisis like this one -- can the average farang work through things considering language barriers and an understandable "Thais first" attitude?

But more, perhaps, than anything else -- is America seriously working on identifying and stopping terrorist attacks? Do you feel confident that Thailand is seriously working in the same way and is competent to do so?

As I've watched these various discussions unfold over the past week, one thing that occurred to me over and over again is what I see as a lack of a Thai national understanding that problems are solved when you actually work at solving them. There's no question that life in Thailand -- almost no matter where you live -- has improved in quality over recent years. Health services and pollution control, availability of things like paved roads into villages and electricity, food cleanliness, and so forth, are certainly better now than when I came here the first time in 1987. But did those improvements take place as a result of long-term planning? Or did those improvements just occur because overall, money poured into the country with its rise in economic viability and as standards of living improved, so did peoples' expectations and willingness to pay for a higher standard. I think it's the latter, because I don't see a lot of strategic problem solving. Best example -- aside from the current crisis -- the southern problem. What concrete things that are really planned out well have you seen to that MAJOR problem that has cost over 3,000 lives, including through beheadings? No, what I see is the oh, things will work out attitude. Sometimes things do just work out...but usually you have to solve significant problems.

I'm returning to the States within the week, after living here for the past year. Yeah, I know, don't let the door hit me in the ass. For me, if I look at it like a proverbial scales, the things on the positive side have shrunk considerably, and the scales just clunked over heavily to the negative side.

I wish Thais well in fixing things; I hope they do. I wish all of you who stay well. But Thais and farang alike need to stop always saying mai pben rai. "Don't sweat the small stuff" is a fine philosophy...but sometimes here I'm not sure there's an ability for many to say, "Oh, but wait...that's not a "small stuff". To throw in one more cliche, "If Thais always do what they've always done," then no core problems will have been solved.

"How would you compare the ability of the Thai government to evacuate people to a safer and adequate location, to the ability of the U.S. government to do the same?"

"How would you compare the ability of the Thai government to supply the city with adequate food and water and medicines during such an emergency, as compared to the U.S.?"

You mean compared to the US government response in New Orleans after hurricane Katrina?

Your post is so wrong and i suspect you know this very well (but are just trying to rationalize your move back to US). You honestly believe that the government did no planning over the last 25 years and that road networks, schools, sanitation , water, electricity, vaccination campaigns etc. all just appeared spontaneously ??!!

There are many strategies and policies that the government has developed to attempt to address the problems in southern Thailand (google is your friend).

In terms of the danger of US versus Thailand- id rather deal with some rioting in Thailand rather than a potential dirty bomb/ nuke, biological or some other catastrophic attack in a US city (which is a possibility).

[phetaroi]

You mean compared to the US government response in New Orleans after hurricane Katrina?

Your post is so wrong and i suspect you know this very well (but are just trying to rationalize your move back to US). You honestly believe that the government did no planning over the last 25 years and that road networks, schools, sanitation , water, electricity, vaccination campaigns etc. all just appeared spontaneously ??!!

There are many strategies and policies that the government has developed to attempt to address the problems in southern Thailand (google is your friend).

In terms of the danger of US versus Thailand- id rather deal with some rioting in Thailand rather than a potential dirty bomb/ nuke, biological or some other catastrophic attack in a US city (which is a possibility).

First, your Katrina point is valid. But, overall, there is extensive disaster preparedness planning in the US. No, in the Katrina situation it failed miserably.

Second, of course to put in specific roads, hospitals, and other infrastructure, there has to be planning. But I feel haphazard and piecemeal. How often on these forums do we hear the jokes about when will the airport skytrain open, and TIT, etc. There's a large office building going up near Asoke/Sukhmvit. I hate to tell you how many huge holes I've seen in the concrete for that office building, which appear to be simply plastered over.

You point about the sophistication of terrorism that could hit the US is valid, too. I lived just outside Washington. I know exactly what you're saying. It's not the primary reason I'm not moving back to the D.C. area, but there was stress about regional terrorism possibilities.

Am I justifying to myself why I am leaving. Actually, I don't think so. It's my free choice. I know what I'm leaving behind. Each of us reacts differently to these kinds of issues. For me it's unacceptable to a good life because the balance in life seems gone to me. Living in Thailand is a constant challenge, and up until recently I always felt there were plenty of things that balanced the inconveniences. Now the scale -- for me -- has tipped too far in the other direction.

[ExpatJ]

You mean compared to the US government response in New Orleans after hurricane Katrina?

Your post is so wrong and i suspect you know this very well (but are just trying to rationalize your move back to US). You honestly believe that the government did no planning over the last 25 years and that road networks, schools, sanitation , water, electricity, vaccination campaigns etc. all just appeared spontaneously ??!!

There are many strategies and policies that the government has developed to attempt to address the problems in southern Thailand (google is your friend).

In terms of the danger of US versus Thailand- id rather deal with some rioting in Thailand rather than a potential dirty bomb/ nuke, biological or some other catastrophic attack in a US city (which is a possibility).

First, your Katrina point is valid. But, overall, there is extensive disaster preparedness planning in the US. No, in the Katrina situation it failed miserably.

Second, of course to put in specific roads, hospitals, and other infrastructure, there has to be planning. But I feel haphazard and piecemeal. How often on these forums do we hear the jokes about when will the airport skytrain open, and TIT, etc. There's a large office building going up near Asoke/Sukhmvit. I hate to tell you how many huge holes I've seen in the concrete for that office building, which appear to be simply plastered over.

You point about the sophistication of terrorism that could hit the US is valid, too. I lived just outside Washington. I know exactly what you're saying. It's not the primary reason I'm not moving back to the D.C. area, but there was stress about regional terrorism possibilities.

Am I justifying to myself why I am leaving. Actually, I don't think so. It's my free choice. I know what I'm leaving behind. Each of us reacts differently to these kinds of issues. For me it's unacceptable to a good life because the balance in life seems gone to me. Living in Thailand is a constant challenge, and up until recently I always felt there were plenty of things that balanced the inconveniences. Now the scale -- for me -- has tipped too far in the other direction.

Fair enough- we all have different fears and comfort zones.

But for every example of poor workmanship, planning, i could give you one from the US - but of course, overall, the US has a stronger government because it is a developed country as opposed to Thailand that is a middle income country.

I have a young family and for me right now i feel it would be far more dangerous taking them to a major city in the US compared to staying in Thailand, just because i think there is a good chance of a massive attack on one of these cities ('not if but when' as even US officials will tell you).

good luck back in the US anyway.

[PattayaParent]

why is this in the language sub forum?

Because nobody can understand why the OP is concerned?