A Premeditated Plan To Burn Bangkok

[mazeltov]

Yes, it is so clever. just have special forces in plainclothes roaming through the streets, armed with assault rifles, fire around.

the nest way that the government can gather evidence about terrorists or blame unknown third parties if journalists or red cross nurses get killed in the process of enforcing law and order, M(ark)16 Abhisit style.

LOL! It's now a conspiracy theory now. Can you also make one up to tell us that Central World housed a CIA safehouse and that it was burned down by the government?

Did i say that?

The question is still there. do you have any explanation for the white shirt guy and his rifle? What he is doing there? is he part of the security forces? why he wears no uniform like the other soldiers? these question have to be asked.

a couple of The Nation articles, specially the ones written by Thanong and some CRES announcements you can file under -> conspiracy theory.

[yoshiwara]

Now what, too mch talk again. i want to see some arrests, and jail time for the guilty

What difference will it make to you either way, Jail or no Jail, arrests or no arrests, how will it change your life ?

This so called ' Talk ' as you refer to it is an article from The Nation Newspaper. They are so pro government I'm surprised the paper they use for print is white, yellow would be more appropriate.

Then again, if they did not tow the government line, they would have problems, and anything anti government would probably lead to closure, so I can see their reasons for being totally pro government.

Yet so many people here jump on the same bandwagon, believing everything the Government and their propaganda machine says, even if it's false.

Or are we to believe that The Thai government are too honest for that ?

I stay out of all the political thread squabbles going on, as you can see by my post count, I have better things to do with my time than sit for hours on end in front of a PC composing meaningless posts on an anonymous internet forum. ( Although I have done just with this post ).

A small percentage of The Red shirts were armed, but they are Branded as ' Terrorists " it's absurd. Are the Army snipers terrorizing people terrorists too, or is it OK to shoot random people because you have a uniform and know full well that the ruling government have given their blessing ?

I wonder what was promised to the Army Generals for ordering their men to use live ammunition on mostly unarmed protesters, instead of having a Military Coup and calming the situation down that way, it's not like Military Coups are unheard of in Thailand is it, why was this time so different ?

It will be interesting to see if they have lucrative new jobs in the future, or if their bank accounts have increase dramatically.

Or are we again to assume that Thai politics would be above that type of thing ?

All governments and their media outlets lie to the people to justify whatever action they have taken, rightly or wrongly.

That's politics folks, and if you believe everything you hear or read on government controlled media, than you are very poorly informed.

So many posts start with "I am not a red" or "I stay out of thai politics" and then go on to spin the red line; only a small percentage (usually 1%) were armed, army shooting peaceful protesters, etc, etc, etc ...........................

Instead of wandering off topic, could you please comment on why so many buildings were looted and torched?

By the way, I don't care how old they were, and couldn't give a rat's anus if they were angry or not; in my book arsonists and looters go to jail for a long time if they surrender prior to being shot dead. It cures them of being young if not stupid, and keeps them from re-offending if only for the period of incarceration

After the attempted burning down of Bangkok any forum contributor claiming to sit on the fence is attempting to rehabilitate the red position by giving equal status to both sides.

It is a crass attempt at legitimation.

They know what they are doing.

[muntergok]

I dont deny this could be true but unfortunately we never get to hear the reds point of view..so its always one sided information.

Exactly. When he says "From my understanding " should read From my understanding as a vigorous and outspoken supporter of Abhisit.

Thanong Khanthong has been a vigorous and outspoken supporter of the People’s Alliance for Democracy and the 2006 military coup.

Thanong tends to see plots everywhere, and concludes with a plea: “You have to truly understand and appreciate the Thai constitutional monarchy. Don’t be fooled by politicians, the police, public prosecutors and some academics.”

And Thanong Khanthong

We now know it was the farangs in thailand led by Jeff & Conor who wer behind the burning & looting !!

[whybother]

What difference will it make to you either way, Jail or no Jail, arrests or no arrests, how will it change your life ?

This so called ' Talk ' as you refer to it is an article from The Nation Newspaper. They are so pro government I'm surprised the paper they use for print is white, yellow would be more appropriate.

Then again, if they did not tow the government line(1), they would have problems, and anything anti government would probably lead to closure, so I can see their reasons for being totally pro government.

Yet so many people here jump on the same bandwagon, believing everything the Government and their propaganda machine says, even if it's false.

Or are we to believe that The Thai government are too honest for that ?

I stay out of all the political thread squabbles going on, as you can see by my post count, I have better things to do with my time than sit for hours on end in front of a PC composing meaningless posts on an anonymous internet forum. ( Although I have done just with this post ).

A small percentage of The Red shirts were armed (2), but they are Branded as ' Terrorists " it's absurd. Are the Army snipers terrorizing people terrorists too, or is it OK to shoot random people because you have a uniform and know full well that the ruling government have given their blessing ?

I wonder what was promised to the Army Generals for ordering their men to use live ammunition on mostly unarmed protesters (3), instead of having a Military Coup and calming the situation down that way (4), it's not like Military Coups are unheard of in Thailand is it, why was this time so different ?

It will be interesting to see if they have lucrative new jobs in the future, or if their bank accounts have increase dramatically.

Or are we again to assume that Thai politics would be above that type of thing ?

All governments and their media outlets lie to the people to justify whatever action they have taken, rightly or wrongly.

That's politics folks, and if you believe everything you hear or read on government controlled media, than you are very poorly informed.

(1) There have been plenty of Nation articles over the last few weeks that haven't "towed the government line". Just take a look back through the last few pages of the News-Clippings.

(2) The government have always said "There are terrorists amongst the protestors". They have never said that all the protestors are terrorists.

(3) How would you suggest they deal with mostly unarmed protestors? Does that mean the armed protestors were using the unarmed protestors as human shields (which makes them more like terrorists), or that the unarmed protestors were protecting the armed protestors (which makes them as guilty as the armed protestors).

(4) How would a coup have calmed down the situation? Or do you effectively mean that Abhisit should have given in to the reds demands and stood down immediately?

If you look at the recent history of Thailand, the army are actually trying to avoid coups. In 2001 they moved to a democratic elections. They had a coup in 2006 because Thaksin was subverting that democracy. After changing the constitution to try and reduce the electoral corruption, they had new elections. Since then, they have kept out of politics (probably not enough yet) and have only been out there recently because of law and order issues, not political issues. They have been very restrained, given how much they were being attacked (by "unarmed" protestors with M16s and grenades). How many soldiers were killed or injured in 1992?

[yoshiwara]

Goodness, now that the Reds are dispersed, the Bangkok gov't and it's many journalist supporters are really going on the information warpath.

How many times do we have to say it? A few random Reds had possession of their own weapons, 99% did not. If an outsider would read this article or the many like it flooding the 'news' these days for the first time they would think the Reds were essentially a heartless, callous military.

Why would I believe any opinion or assertion by "Dr." Panitan Wattanayagorn or Colonel Sansorn would say? They are gov't right-hand-men with one-sided objectives.

1% only eh? Riiiiiiight. I love it when Red sympathizers pull statistical numbers out of their asses. One sided indeed!

Readers might be wondering why the red apologists are pushing the line really, really hard of the rioters being only 1% of the total and that they were merely frustrated youths letting off steam.

Yes, why is it that the red movement is now trying to oh-so-gently to distance itself from the red violence in addition to Thaksin's directions?

Because any organisation either directly linked to or supporting the burning of Bangkok will be banned.

The reds thought they were going to win last week.

Now they are unwinding their positions.

After the red violence of Songkran 2009 Thaksin was forced to denounce the reds as 'fake reds'.

The recent burning of Bangkok events doesn't quite allow that option.

So the 1% lie is inserted instead.

We know how they move.

[jdinasia]

I dont deny this could be true but unfortunately we never get to hear the reds point of view..so its always one sided information.

Exactly. When he says "From my understanding " should read From my understanding as a vigorous and outspoken supporter of Abhisit.

Thanong Khanthong has been a vigorous and outspoken supporter of the People's Alliance for Democracy and the 2006 military coup.

Thanong tends to see plots everywhere, and concludes with a plea: "You have to truly understand and appreciate the Thai constitutional monarchy. Don't be fooled by politicians, the police, public prosecutors and some academics."

And Thanong Khanthong

We now know it was the farangs in thailand led by Jeff & Conor who wer behind the burning & looting !!

Hmmm How is the weather in Stockholm?

Devaram says we don't get to hear the red side of things? --- He must be in Stokholm too! We heard the red side of things for the past year and more! Those of us with eyes and ears have read the newspapers, listened to Thaksin's denials, have SEEN People TV making news instead of reporting it. (Sorry when you tell people how to participate in an illegal gathering during a state of emergency --- you have overstepped your license! They could have just REPORTED and been fine but they kept adding instructions to reds on the screen .... that was OTT) The press gives the red side constantly (and people tend to see right through it if there is ANY balance in the press!)

Now you have Robert Amsterdam --- feel free to get the new Red meme's from him He'll give you the lies and distortions 24 hours a day if you will listen! In his interview with Al Jazeera he said he had never even heard a rumor that Thaksin was paying the protesters to be there! That has been talked about in ALL the press including the Red press for YEARS but Amsterdam had never even heard the rumor? HOGWASH!

Thanong isn't even close to being on my "top reporters in Thailand" list, but for an OPINION piece he doesn't need to be!

[GM1955]

double post

Edited May 26, 2010 by GM1955

[GM1955]

Here we go again, the same hatred, the same high blood pressure posts, the same slagging off of posters who dare to have an opinion different to others. You guys should really calm down. Did you really come to Thailand to sit in front of a PC all day and get frustrated and angry about something you are powerless to change ?

You all have your own points of view, I can see that, it's so complicated and so involved with money and power, people like us will never really know what or why any of the major events took place.

Look at how the American people were lied to over Vietnam, by probably 4 - 5 administrations, look how they were lied to over Iraq as well as Tony Blair doing the same to the Brits.

To completely dismiss that this government will not lie to the people for it's own purposes is simply not being in touch with reality.

You all have valid points, I'm quite sure that there is a semblance of truth or at least belief in the truth in all of your posts. Just try to stay calm, there is so much hatred it's amazing. The next Thai Visa meeting/piss up should be interesting.

Edited May 26, 2010 by GM1955

[MikeyIdea]

I dont deny this could be true but unfortunately we never get to hear the reds point of view..so its always one sided information.

Exactly. When he says "From my understanding " should read From my understanding as a vigorous and outspoken supporter of Abhisit.

When I say "From my understanding" it is because I worked at Central World and I heard the reds message put forward on the Ratchaprasong stage. I also heard the peaceful red demonstrators screaming out their approval at the top of their lungs

muntergok, from where do you base your understanding?

[Samuian]

LOL! It's now a conspiracy theory now. Can you also make one up to tell us that Central World housed a CIA safehouse and that it was burned down by the government?

they wanted to burn paragon. Paragon has 80 private well trained staff, and they defended it, and they are trained for emergency situations (like when fires break out in the restaurants, or an armed gunman). On the other hand, Central hires out from a private security company, and they are untrained for fires or emergency situations. they fled. Gaysorn wasn't touched as the owners have sponsered various red shirt causes. I was informed of this by several managers I know at Paragon, thats what they had to say.

I am saying that it sound like central was an easy target, plus the owner supported people who opposed Thaksin.

The managers at Paragon say that central was surrounded with a torchable line of gasoline poured days before, so it sounds like they were lying in wait for some time to do this. And our man from Kent proudly announced his plans on camera days before.

They really planned to burn the city indeed all evidence and common sense wuld point to!

Everything else seems plausible - but SORRY - this "torchable line of kerosene, poured days before", who is going to buy this, doesn't hold the water - simply because of the heat - the heat would make it evaporate! and there wont be ANY combustible material left - so please if so, make the Story watertight - partly nice reading though... and next is: kerosene is combustible but one of the fuels that is like diesel heavy inflammable, unless it is on some sort of "carrier" like a wick, a rag, old tires or sprayed like in a diesel or aircraft engine!

(its autoignition temperature is 220 °C (428 °F). The heat of combustion of kerosene is similar to that of diesel: its lower heating value is around 18,500 Btu/lb, or 43.1 MJ/kg, and its higher heating value is 46.2 MJ/kg)

[dobadoy]

Every word you say may be correct & the article has the ring of truth about and seems to fit the chain of events. However I'm afraid you are preaching either to the converted or the unconvertible as I would imagine subsequent comments will bear out. There seems to be very little middle ground on these forums - hopefully that's not representative of the whole of the community otherwise this crisis will drag on interminably.

Wise words. Thailand's tragedy is that there is no middle ground anymore. You can be either red or yellow, with nothing in between - a malaise that is echoed in this forum.

All this talk of reconciliation seems like so much wishful thinking and good intention, against a backdrop of two opposite sides who detest each other.

It's such a shame.

This isn't about reds vs yellows. This is a fight between Abhisit (and the current government) and the reds.

I see Abhisit as part of the middle ground. He is creating policies that help the poor (health care, education, managed loans) and also taxing the rich (land tax). Certainly he is supported by the yellows, but their call for him to step down because he didn't do enough (in their opinion) to stop the protests, and the fact that they have their own party, shows that he doesn't have the yellow's full support.

And IMO most of the anti-red posters on TVF do not support the yellows. Some, such as myself, point out some facts about the PAD to red supporters, but that doesn't mean it is support.

I agree, the idea of reconciliation is wishful thinking, when the reds idea of compromise and negotiation is "do everything we demand, and then we will start negotiating".

Good post. I don't support the yellows or the PAD - they started out as an anti-Thaksin movement and turned in to some kind of right-wing looney brigade - but I do support Abhisit as being the best hope in a generation (or more) that this country has of real social progression.

He is hampered on all sides - the reds, the yellows, and the dirty elements of the democrat party - and once again he has done well to come out of this in one piece (as he did from Black May last year). I have not and do not support all of his decisions and maneouvres since becoming PM, but I do congratulate him on managing to keep a very leaky boat still floating on the surface.

[dobadoy]

Even in the face of overwhelming evidence, hard line government supporters will lie, lie and lie again to cover their position.

The current lie is that the violent reds were more then angry youths.

A stone lie.

True, true...I never get tired of watching this when I read posts like yours.

Edited May 26, 2010 by dobadoy

[roomak]

Premeditated by who - my money is on Thaksin

www.youtube.com/watch?hl=fi&v=vBDm-jA3N80

[MikeyIdea]

Everything else seems plausible - but SORRY - this "torchable line of kerosene, poured days before", who is going to buy this, doesn't hold the water - simply because of the heat - the heat would make it evaporate! and there wont be ANY combustible material left - so please if so, make the Story watertight - partly nice reading though... and next is: kerosene is combustible but one of the fuels that is like diesel heavy inflammable, unless it is on some sort of "carrier" like a wick, a rag, old tires or sprayed like in a diesel or aircraft engine!

(its autoignition temperature is 220 °C (428 °F). The heat of combustion of kerosene is similar to that of diesel: its lower heating value is around 18,500 Btu/lb, or 43.1 MJ/kg, and its higher heating value is 46.2 MJ/kg)

Our IT guys have been allowed back into the Off at Central World now and they talked to the guards who had been there during the whole occupation; The reds prepared the burning of the Zen department store by putting out gas bottles (cooking gas) long before the burnings started (read several days before). They opened the valves, broke the windows, threw them in, then spiced it all with molotov cocktails and ignited with grenades.

Is this story of truth good enough for you?

[gemini81]

Everything else seems plausible - but SORRY - this "torchable line of kerosene, poured days before", who is going to buy this, doesn't hold the water - simply because of the heat - the heat would make it evaporate! and there wont be ANY combustible material left - so please if so, make the Story watertight - partly nice reading though... and next is: kerosene is combustible but one of the fuels that is like diesel heavy inflammable, unless it is on some sort of "carrier" like a wick, a rag, old tires or sprayed like in a diesel or aircraft engine!

(its autoignition temperature is 220 °C (428 °F). The heat of combustion of kerosene is similar to that of diesel: its lower heating value is around 18,500 Btu/lb, or 43.1 MJ/kg, and its higher heating value is 46.2 MJ/kg)

Our IT guys have been allowed back into the Off at Central World now and they talked to the guards who had been there during the whole occupation; The reds prepared the burning of the Zen department store by putting out gas bottles (cooking gas) long before the burnings started (read several days before). They opened the valves, broke the windows, threw them in, then spiced it all with molotov cocktails and ignited with grenades.

Is this story of truth good enough for you?

Thats what I was told.

As for Samuian, there is more to denial than just the river.

As a Samuian, he or she obviously wasn't here to witness what you and I did, nor did they watch any of the videos which show the events.

[MikeyIdea]

***

I don't support the yellows or the PAD - they started out as an anti-Thaksin movement and turned in to some kind of right-wing looney brigade - but I do support Abhisit as being the best hope in a generation (or more) that this country has of real social progression.

He is hampered on all sides - the reds, the yellows, and the dirty elements of the democrat party - and once again he has done well to come out of this in one piece (as he did from Black May last year). I have not and do not support all of his decisions and maneouvres since becoming PM, but I do congratulate him on managing to keep a very leaky boat still floating on the surface

Must say I agree, Many people may not agree with Abhisits decisions but I must say that they have been among the better options, seen long term. Anyone seeing them short-term would think they are crap I suppose, good that our prime minister doesn't take short term decisions I say

Neither Abhisit or the reds will win the next election I think. A third party will take it, and then it will be business as usual, the negative side of it as well as the positive.

[yoshiwara]

Everything else seems plausible - but SORRY - this "torchable line of kerosene, poured days before", who is going to buy this, doesn't hold the water - simply because of the heat - the heat would make it evaporate! and there wont be ANY combustible material left - so please if so, make the Story watertight - partly nice reading though... and next is: kerosene is combustible but one of the fuels that is like diesel heavy inflammable, unless it is on some sort of "carrier" like a wick, a rag, old tires or sprayed like in a diesel or aircraft engine!

(its autoignition temperature is 220 °C (428 °F). The heat of combustion of kerosene is similar to that of diesel: its lower heating value is around 18,500 Btu/lb, or 43.1 MJ/kg, and its higher heating value is 46.2 MJ/kg)

Our IT guys have been allowed back into the Off at Central World now and they talked to the guards who had been there during the whole occupation; The reds prepared the burning of the Zen department store by putting out gas bottles (cooking gas) long before the burnings started (read several days before). They opened the valves, broke the windows, threw them in, then spiced it all with molotov cocktails and ignited with grenades.

Is this story of truth good enough for you?

Yes, successfully setting light to those large buildings requires preparation.

[Bakseedaa]

Probably special forces that can blend in with the enemy.

And it would be foollish NOT to have special forces out, because they would better know

how to deal with the EX. special forces hiding in the shadows arrayed against the army regulars.

I don't think I've ever seen 'special forces' types wearing shorts and t-shirts while in action.

I know that guy...He`s a motor cycle taxi driver in my street.... must have been his day off..!!

[kaengk]

The govt. has admitted it knew that buildings were likely to be torched during crackdown. Yet, it shut water off that supplied fire suppression systems in Central World and others. Why did the govt. insist that the burnings must be successful?

[MAJIC]

I dont deny this could be true but unfortunately we never get to hear the reds point of view..so its always one sided information.

The Red Shirts point of view was patently obvious by their Anarchistic actions.

[whybother]

The govt. has admitted it knew that buildings were likely to be torched during crackdown. Yet, it shut water off that supplied fire suppression systems in Central World and others. Why did the govt. insist that the burnings must be successful?

Did the government actually turn off the water?

They talked about it a couple of days before the end of the protests, then they didn't do it because it would effect the residents and businesses in the area. I don't remember reading anything that says that the water was turned off.

[rubl]

The govt. has admitted it knew that buildings were likely to be torched during crackdown. Yet, it shut water off that supplied fire suppression systems in Central World and others. Why did the govt. insist that the burnings must be successful?

The government acknowledged that there was a likelihood of torching buildings.Still it may or may not have been considered in actions to get the UDD / red-shirts to disperse.

[kaengk]

I dont deny this could be true but unfortunately we never get to hear the reds point of view..so its always one sided information.

The Red Shirts point of view was patently obvious by their Anarchistic actions.

You are not going to find the Red point of view on govt/military TV and the tightly controlled media in Thailand. You have to rely on the international press to get a fair view of politics in Thailand. Many Thais and indeed many farang in Thailand actually believe the Thai press, strange as that may seem. The best way is to talk with the Reds themselves, mostly lovely people. Sure, as in the civil rights protests in America, some of the protesters are violent (Black Panthers, Weather Underground, etc.) But, ultimately, the fight for democracy will be worth it and the end of military domination in Thai politics will be heaven sent.

[ozzieman05]

Goodness, now that the Reds are dispersed, the Bangkok gov't and it's many journalist supporters are really going on the information warpath.

How many times do we have to say it? A few random Reds had possession of their own weapons, 99% did not. If an outsider would read this article or the many like it flooding the 'news' these days for the first time they would think the Reds were essentially a heartless, callous military.

Why would I believe any opinion or assertion by "Dr." Panitan Wattanayagorn or Colonel Sansorn would say? They are gov't right-hand-men with one-sided objectives.

1% only eh? Riiiiiiight. I love it when Red sympathizers pull statistical numbers out of their asses. One sided indeed!

Yo are all wrong

It was 1% of the million they expected

the majority of the non violent ones did not turn up giveing them a higher violent to innocent ratio

[MAJIC]

The govt. has admitted it knew that buildings were likely to be torched during crackdown. Yet, it shut water off that supplied fire suppression systems in Central World and others. Why did the govt. insist that the burnings must be successful?

Typical Red shirt comment everything was and is the fault of the Government,just like naughty children comment to the

Parents"you made me behave badly" therefore its not my fault!

[whybother]

I dont deny this could be true but unfortunately we never get to hear the reds point of view..so its always one sided information.

The Red Shirts point of view was patently obvious by their Anarchistic actions.

You are not going to find the Red point of view on govt/military TV and the tightly controlled media in Thailand. You have to rely on the international press to get a fair view of politics in Thailand. Many Thais and indeed many farang in Thailand actually believe the Thai press, strange as that may seem. The best way is to talk with the Reds themselves, mostly lovely people. Sure, as in the civil rights protests in America, some of the protesters are violent (Black Panthers, Weather Underground, etc.) But, ultimately, the fight for democracy will be worth it and the end of military domination in Thai politics will be heaven sent.

Do you mean tightly controlled media like TVF?

Although I don't agree with the censorship in Thailand, there are plenty of dissenting views available.

International (and some internal to Thailand) posters have access to all of the censored material and can post most of that material on TVF. What is censored is usually conspiracy theories or outright lies (or is mentioning the monarchy).

[MAJIC]

Premeditated by who - my money is on Thaksin

seconded, call him ..

..."The Coach"..

Or the "Puppet Master"

[yoshiwara]

I dont deny this could be true but unfortunately we never get to hear the reds point of view..so its always one sided information.

The Red Shirts point of view was patently obvious by their Anarchistic actions.

You are not going to find the Red point of view on govt/military TV and the tightly controlled media in Thailand. You have to rely on the international press to get a fair view of politics in Thailand. Many Thais and indeed many farang in Thailand actually believe the Thai press, strange as that may seem. The best way is to talk with the Reds themselves, mostly lovely people. Sure, as in the civil rights protests in America, some of the protesters are violent (Black Panthers, Weather Underground, etc.) But, ultimately, the fight for democracy will be worth it and the end of military domination in Thai politics will be heaven sent.

First our friendly red mouthpiece here justifies Arisman, Jtuporn etc

And then he sneakily justifies the burning of Bangkok under the banner of democracy.

Attacking the Bangkok working class and their jobs and then justifying it as 'civil rights'

Just shows us how desperate these reactionary spokesmen for Thaksin really are.

Chucking them out of Bangkok was the first stage.

[chantorn]

The rich Thai Chinese have won this battle. But I suppose the war is not over. The poor Thai will stage a come back. Not sure when.

[animatic]

Even in the face of overwhelming evidence, hard line government supporters will lie, lie and lie again to cover their position.

The current lie is that the violent reds were more then angry youths.

A stone lie.

True, true...I never get tired of watching this when I read posts like yours.

Why lie, when we have so many Red 'Leader's' public statements on video

to prove our points for us. Never seen a bunch with such an excellent aim

at their own FEET.

A good offense is a good defence, unless you are defending the indefensible.

Or maybe especially then, because it's the only hope of distraction from

THE TRUTH!