http://www.bt.com.bn/asia_news/2008/10/10/...d_in_thai_clash

http://www.ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=44913

http://www.heraldscotland.com/dangerous-times-1.829121

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=676153

http://picasaweb.google.co.th/democracynow...749073709196290

Maybe you've forgotten how violent the PAD were, the above articles and photos should help jog your memory.

The crackdown against the PAD lasted a few hours on the 7/10/2008, out of 192 days of protest, the army was not used nor snipers, just police who had side arms but did not use them. The deaths were caused by tear gas canisters and much of the amputation injuries to protesters were caused by ping pong grenades going off prematurely.

So there you have a standard set in how to deal with protesters, after this crackdown the security forces realized they could not remove the PAD without serious loss of life so they left them alone, left them to over run airports.

I didn't look at your links.

However, I need to ask you. Did they PAD fire at the police with assault rifles? Did they have grenade launchers?

I will say it again regarding the Red Shits. Standard 'peaceful' dispersal tactics don't work when the other side has live rounds and ARE SHOOTING BACK AT YOU.

4 police officers shot in one day 7/10/2008

Plus numerous ping pong grenades thrown.

The PAD shot back at the police who were using standard dispersal tactics, these standard dispersal tactics were unsuccessful, subsequently the police did not attempt to remove the PAD again.

They were not prepared to use the deadly force necessary to remove the PAD and the army refused to get involved.

The standard for dealing with violent protesters who refuse to leave their encampments was set in Bangkok 2008.

Government Passes Censure Debate with Flying Colors

The prime minister and his five ministers targeted in the censure debate passed the vote taken this morning.

Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva passed with 246 votes against 186 votes, with 11 abstentions. The prime minister gained the most votes this time around. Deputy Prime Minister Suthep Thaugsuban passed with 245 votes against 187 votes, with 11 abstentions.

Finance Minister Korn Chatikavanij passed with 244 against 187, with 12 abstentions. Foreign Minister Kasit Piromya passed with 239 against 190, with 15 abstentions. Interior Minister Chaowarat Charnveerakul passed with 236 against 194 votes, with 14 abstaining. Transport Minister Sophon Sarum passed with 234 against 196 votes, with 13 abstentions.

With the prevailing 475 House seats, the government needs a minimum of 238 votes to defeat the censure. The coalition commands 275 House seats while the opposition has 200 votes.

That means the PTP couldnt even get all their 200 MP's to vote for their motion

Don't Pheu Thai have 189 Mp's, with eight allies from the RPP? Even so, you're right. They couldn't get them all to vote. Which could be interpreted as meaning that Pheu Thai aren't 100% in Thaksin's pocket, or a few were ill or otherwise engaged (possibly stuck in the Members' bar, an occasional issue in the UK Parliament ). By the same token, the Dems didn't get a full turnout of their coalition. But they didn't need it. A slight anomaly is that more MP's voted in the motions regarding Chaowarat and Kasit than in the others .

Less than 100 killed. What so deadly about this crackdown.

There are more than 60 millions Thais and a few more million Farang.

Those killed is not even the majority.

In fact less than 0.01%

http://www.bt.com.bn/asia_news/2008/10/10/...d_in_thai_clash

http://www.ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=44913

http://www.heraldscotland.com/dangerous-times-1.829121

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=676153

http://picasaweb.google.co.th/democracynow...749073709196290

Maybe you've forgotten how violent the PAD were, the above articles and photos should help jog your memory.

The crackdown against the PAD lasted a few hours on the 7/10/2008, out of 192 days of protest, the army was not used nor snipers, just police who had side arms but did not use them. The deaths were caused by tear gas canisters and much of the amputation injuries to protesters were caused by ping pong grenades going off prematurely.

So there you have a standard set in how to deal with protesters, after this crackdown the security forces realized they could not remove the PAD without serious loss of life so they left them alone, left them to over run airports.

I didn't look at your links.

However, I need to ask you. Did they PAD fire at the police with assault rifles? Did they have grenade launchers?

I will say it again regarding the Red Shits. Standard 'peaceful' dispersal tactics don't work when the other side has live rounds and ARE SHOOTING BACK AT YOU.

4 police officers shot in one day 7/10/2008

Plus numerous ping pong grenades thrown.

The PAD shot back at the police who were using standard dispersal tactics, these standard dispersal tactics were unsuccessful, subsequently the police did not attempt to remove the PAD again.

They were not prepared to use the deadly force necessary to remove the PAD and the army refused to get involved.

The standard for dealing with violent protesters who refuse to leave their encampments was set in Bangkok 2008.

Ummmm let's see .... evidence of ping pong grenades being used? None (people were arrested with them I think)

Who "shot back" at police --- not proven (pics of the guy with the gun shooting over the wall were shown to be someone shooting AT the PAD not the police). No Police died that day and 2 protesters did.

Standard dispersal tactics --- simply a LIE. The police used outdated Chinese military tear gas that was laced with RDX. They did not create a clear path of retreat but instead surrounded the protesters. They fired horizontally into the crowd (straight at people!) instead of in a parabollic arc.

Chavalit had to resign over the misuse of the police on Oct 7th.

The police were proven to be ill-prepared (incapable) of dealing with crowd dispersal.

2008 was under a different government and set no precedent on anything. (In fact precedence is not a part of Thai law)

http://www.bt.com.bn/asia_news/2008/10/10/...d_in_thai_clash

http://www.ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=44913

http://www.heraldscotland.com/dangerous-times-1.829121

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=676153

http://picasaweb.google.co.th/democracynow...749073709196290

Maybe you've forgotten how violent the PAD were, the above articles and photos should help jog your memory.

The crackdown against the PAD lasted a few hours on the 7/10/2008, out of 192 days of protest, the army was not used nor snipers, just police who had side arms but did not use them. The deaths were caused by tear gas canisters and much of the amputation injuries to protesters were caused by ping pong grenades going off prematurely.

So there you have a standard set in how to deal with protesters, after this crackdown the security forces realized they could not remove the PAD without serious loss of life so they left them alone, left them to over run airports.

I didn't look at your links.

However, I need to ask you. Did they PAD fire at the police with assault rifles? Did they have grenade launchers?

I will say it again regarding the Red Shits. Standard 'peaceful' dispersal tactics don't work when the other side has live rounds and ARE SHOOTING BACK AT YOU.

4 police officers shot in one day 7/10/2008

Plus numerous ping pong grenades thrown.

The PAD shot back at the police who were using standard dispersal tactics, these standard dispersal tactics were unsuccessful, subsequently the police did not attempt to remove the PAD again.

They were not prepared to use the deadly force necessary to remove the PAD and the army refused to get involved.

The standard for dealing with violent protesters who refuse to leave their encampments was set in Bangkok 2008.

It was the wrong 'standard' set by a useless and weak government.

UN calls for Thai clashes inquiry

The UN has demanded an independent inquiry into recent unrest in Thailand, when more than 80 people were killed in clashes between security forces and protesters.

Continued here:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/asia_pacific/10199051.stm

The question is, is it possible to have an independent inquiry in Thailand?

Not demanded:

The UN High Commissioner for Human Rights has called for an independent investigation of Thailand's bloody political crisis to bring those responsible for the human rights violations to account.

Subtle difference

The only difference is that monkfish is correct and you aren't.

The BBC story says "demanded", not "called for".

So what's the subtle difference?

UN calls for Thai clashes inquiry

The UN has demanded an independent inquiry into recent unrest in Thailand, when more than 80 people were killed in clashes between security forces and protesters.

Continued here:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/asia_pacific/10199051.stm

The question is, is it possible to have an independent inquiry in Thailand?

Not demanded:

The UN High Commissioner for Human Rights has called for an independent investigation of Thailand's bloody political crisis to bring those responsible for the human rights violations to account.

Subtle difference

The only difference is that monkfish is correct and you aren't.

The BBC story says "demanded", not "called for".

So what's the subtle difference?

Isn't the crackdown an internal affair? I think Farang should not get involved.

Same same as the Thaksin case. Farang should not get involved.

UN calls for Thai clashes inquiry

The UN has demanded an independent inquiry into recent unrest in Thailand, when more than 80 people were killed in clashes between security forces and protesters.

Continued here:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/asia_pacific/10199051.stm

The question is, is it possible to have an independent inquiry in Thailand?

Not demanded:

The UN High Commissioner for Human Rights has called for an independent investigation of Thailand's bloody political crisis to bring those responsible for the human rights violations to account.

Subtle difference

The only difference is that monkfish is correct and you aren't.

The BBC story says "demanded", not "called for".

So what's the subtle difference?

Surely the red shirts 'cracked down' when they illegally seized a large section of central Bangkok, throwing thousands out of work and ultimately destroying their stock and place of work.

UN calls for Thai clashes inquiry

The UN has demanded an independent inquiry into recent unrest in Thailand, when more than 80 people were killed in clashes between security forces and protesters.

Continued here:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/asia_pacific/10199051.stm

The question is, is it possible to have an independent inquiry in Thailand?

Not demanded:

The UN High Commissioner for Human Rights has called for an independent investigation of Thailand's bloody political crisis to bring those responsible for the human rights violations to account.

Subtle difference

The only difference is that monkfish is correct and you aren't.

The BBC story says "demanded", not "called for".

So what's the subtle difference?

Actually you are both wrong --- AND partially correct. The title of the story says "calls for". The reporter uses "demand" --- but the UN chief said neither....

"I urge the government to ensure that an independent investigation of recent events be conducted, and all those found responsible for human-rights violations are held to account," she said in a speech in Switzerland.

"I urge" ---

The UN can call for (with no authority) or demand (with no authority) but urge is a strong suggestion .... neither demanding nor calling for.

Reading what the people involved say versus the words the reporter attributes to them with no quotes is important

see the subtle difference?

UN calls for Thai clashes inquiry

The UN has demanded an independent inquiry into recent unrest in Thailand, when more than 80 people were killed in clashes between security forces and protesters.

Continued here:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/asia_pacific/10199051.stm

The question is, is it possible to have an independent inquiry in Thailand?

Not demanded:

The UN High Commissioner for Human Rights has called for an independent investigation of Thailand's bloody political crisis to bring those responsible for the human rights violations to account.

Subtle difference

The only difference is that monkfish is correct and you aren't.

The BBC story says "demanded", not "called for".

So what's the subtle difference?

Isn't the crackdown an internal affair? I think Farang should not get involved.

Same same as the Thaksin case. Farang should not get involved.

Thaksin is now farang, he is from Montenegro. Same same, Thaksin should not get involved, either.

UN calls for Thai clashes inquiry

The UN has demanded an independent inquiry into recent unrest in Thailand, when more than 80 people were killed in clashes between security forces and protesters.

Continued here:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/asia_pacific/10199051.stm

The question is, is it possible to have an independent inquiry in Thailand?

Not demanded:

The UN High Commissioner for Human Rights has called for an independent investigation of Thailand's bloody political crisis to bring those responsible for the human rights violations to account.

Subtle difference

The only difference is that monkfish is correct and you aren't.

The BBC story says "demanded", not "called for".

So what's the subtle difference?

Isn't the crackdown an internal affair? I think Farang should not get involved.

Same same as the Thaksin case. Farang should not get involved.

What you think is irelevent

This is the real world ,so in any country including Thailand things are shaped to a certain degree by world markets and world opinion

People other than Thais that live here or have businesses here,do have a right and an obligation to comment

Again irelevent if you or i agree with them

They have a right

I am so sick of hearing this crap

I have 2 children here that are half Thai,and you nor anybody else can ever tell me that their future is not something i can comment on

When you grow up ,maybe you can visit some other countries and see how it all works then

Isn't the crackdown an internal affair? I think Farang should not get involved.

Same same as the Thaksin case. Farang should not get involved.

What you think is irelevent

This is the real world ,so in any country including Thailand things are shaped to a certain degree by world markets and world opinion

People other than Thais that live here or have businesses here,do have a right and an obligation to comment

Again irelevent if you or i agree with them

They have a right

I am so sick of hearing this crap

I have 2 children here that are half Thai,and you nor anybody else can ever tell me that their future is not something i can comment on

When you grow up ,maybe you can visit some other countries and see how it all works then

I'm sick of people saying "same same".

Isn't the crackdown an internal affair? I think Farang should not get involved.

Same same as the Thaksin case. Farang should not get involved.

What you think is irelevent

This is the real world ,so in any country including Thailand things are shaped to a certain degree by world markets and world opinion

People other than Thais that live here or have businesses here,do have a right and an obligation to comment

Again irelevent if you or i agree with them

They have a right

I am so sick of hearing this crap

I have 2 children here that are half Thai,and you nor anybody else can ever tell me that their future is not something i can comment on

When you grow up ,maybe you can visit some other countries and see how it all works then

I'm sick of people saying "same same".

Take some Tylenol, you might get to feel better.

Or simply grow up so you might get some relief from your self created distress(es). It sounds like you've been in the game for too long. 

Agreed by the great majority of us that farang have no place on stages at political events, either to just stand there or to make speeches. 

Be assured that while we do not have the vote - nor should we - TVF is read by Reds and Yellows alike, by the Thai media and most significantly of all, by both the government and the Reds. They closely follow that which we farang have to say in the here and now. like it or not.  

Be assured that while we do not have the vote - nor should we - TVF is read by Reds and Yellows alike, by the Thai media and most significantly of all, by both the government and the Reds. They closely follow that which we farang have to say in the here and now. like it or not.  

If you seriously believe this one you are comically deceived.Thai Visa represents the legion of retirees, tourists,teachers, remittance men, and sexpats (present and past).I doubt whether most regular farang businessmen or professionals - ie those with visas and work permits - are even aware of its existence.The name of the forum tells you its audience as do the advertisers.

Be assured that while we do not have the vote - nor should we - TVF is read by Reds and Yellows alike, by the Thai media and most significantly of all, by both the government and the Reds. They closely follow that which we farang have to say in the here and now. like it or not.  

If you seriously believe this one you are comically deceived.Thai Visa represents the legion of retirees, tourists,teachers, remittance men, and sexpats (present and past).I doubt whether most regular farang businessmen or professionals - ie those with visas and work permits - are even aware of its existence.The name of the forum tells you its audience as do the advertisers.

Is that so?

Be assured that while we do not have the vote - nor should we - TVF is read by Reds and Yellows alike, by the Thai media and most significantly of all, by both the government and the Reds. They closely follow that which we farang have to say in the here and now. like it or not.

If you seriously believe this one you are comically deceived.Thai Visa represents the legion of retirees, tourists,teachers, remittance men, and sexpats (present and past).I doubt whether most regular farang businessmen or professionals - ie those with visas and work permits - are even aware of its existence.The name of the forum tells you its audience as do the advertisers.

Which one of those groups do you fit into that you seem to be denigrating? Does me having a visa and WP make me better than others?

Be assured that while we do not have the vote - nor should we - TVF is read by Reds and Yellows alike, by the Thai media and most significantly of all, by both the government and the Reds. They closely follow that which we farang have to say in the here and now. like it or not.  

If you seriously believe this one you are comically deceived.Thai Visa represents the legion of retirees, tourists,teachers, remittance men, and sexpats (present and past).I doubt whether most regular farang businessmen or professionals - ie those with visas and work permits - are even aware of its existence.The name of the forum tells you its audience as do the advertisers.

You must have just come down in the last shower of rain & you are the one who is "comically deceived". Besides, why can't the "legion of retirees" make comment, after all they contribute to the economy & have a right to their opinion.

Be assured that while we do not have the vote - nor should we - TVF is read by Reds and Yellows alike, by the Thai media and most significantly of all, by both the government and the Reds. They closely follow that which we farang have to say in the here and now. like it or not.

If you seriously believe this one you are comically deceived.Thai Visa represents the legion of retirees, tourists,teachers, remittance men, and sexpats (present and past).I doubt whether most regular farang businessmen or professionals - ie those with visas and work permits - are even aware of its existence.The name of the forum tells you its audience as do the advertisers.

Which one of those groups do you fit into that you seem to be denigrating? Does me having a visa and WP make me better than others?

I'm a retired sexpat, squire.

Your status? Dunno.Many bottom feeders including low paid foreign teachers for example - not all - have WPs/correct visas.However it's not a question of being better or worse, and certainly not denigrating.It's just facing facts.

When the Thai Government wants a foreigner view it talks to key Embassies and the Chambers of Commerce.

There is however an international set in Bangkok.Typical indicators would be membership of the Bangkok Club and/or Royal Bangkok Sports Club and possibly British Club (if prepared to slum it), children at top international schools, monthly salary of at least Bt 400,000, here on 3 to 5 contract not because of having fallen in love with some snub nosed bargirl (or barboy) on holiday.There are also a few - a very few - successful entrepreneurs.They would not be clients of one of this forum's main sponsors!

Very few would have even heard of Thai Visa.

Be assured that while we do not have the vote - nor should we - TVF is read by Reds and Yellows alike, by the Thai media and most significantly of all, by both the government and the Reds. They closely follow that which we farang have to say in the here and now. like it or not.  

If you seriously believe this one you are comically deceived.Thai Visa represents the legion of retirees, tourists,teachers, remittance men, and sexpats (present and past).I doubt whether most regular farang businessmen or professionals - ie those with visas and work permits - are even aware of its existence.The name of the forum tells you its audience as do the advertisers.

You must have just come down in the last shower of rain & you are the one who is "comically deceived". Besides, why can't the "legion of retirees" make comment, after all they contribute to the economy & have a right to their opinion.

You misunderstand me.Even the wrinkled oldsters who have pitched up here whether for the weather or to nourish a long denied libido have the right to say their piece.That's what Thai Vis is for.Just don't kid yourself that any Thai gives a toss.

Less than 100 killed. What so deadly about this crackdown.

There are more than 60 millions Thais and a few more million Farang.

Those killed is not even the majority.

In fact less than 0.01%

Amazingly, a hundred lives lost asking for an elction means nothing to you, lady.

I'm a retired sexpat, squire.

Your status? Dunno. Many bottom feeders including low paid foreign teachers for example - not all - have WPs/correct visas.However it's not a question of being better or worse, and certainly not denigrating.It's just facing facts.

When the Thai Government wants a foreigner view it talks to key Embassies and the Chambers of Commerce.

There is however an international set in Bangkok.Typical indicators would be membership of the Bangkok Club and/or Royal Bangkok Sports Club and possibly British Club (if prepared to slum it), children at top international schools, monthly salary of at least Bt 400,000, here on 3 to 5 contract not because of having fallen in love with some snub nosed bargirl (or barboy) on holiday.There are also a few - a very few - successful entrepreneurs.They would not be clients of one of this forum's main sponsors!

Very few would have even heard of Thai Visa.

Are you sure? In truth you are quite denigrating and insulting. It is in fact this particular attitude amongst Thais that lower paid individuals are somehow inferior that is the root of the divisions in this society. You evidently play your own part in perpetuating that myth.

Be assured that while we do not have the vote - nor should we - TVF is read by Reds and Yellows alike, by the Thai media and most significantly of all, by both the government and the Reds. They closely follow that which we farang have to say in the here and now. like it or not.

If you seriously believe this one you are comically deceived.Thai Visa represents the legion of retirees, tourists,teachers, remittance men, and sexpats (present and past).I doubt whether most regular farang businessmen or professionals - ie those with visas and work permits - are even aware of its existence.The name of the forum tells you its audience as do the advertisers.

Which one of those groups do you fit into that you seem to be denigrating? Does me having a visa and WP make me better than others?

I'm a retired sexpat, squire.

Your status? Dunno.Many bottom feeders including low paid foreign teachers for example - not all - have WPs/correct visas.However it's not a question of being better or worse, and certainly not denigrating.It's just facing facts.

When the Thai Government wants a foreigner view it talks to key Embassies and the Chambers of Commerce.

There is however an international set in Bangkok.Typical indicators would be membership of the Bangkok Club and/or Royal Bangkok Sports Club and possibly British Club (if prepared to slum it), children at top international schools, monthly salary of at least Bt 400,000, here on 3 to 5 contract not because of having fallen in love with some snub nosed bargirl (or barboy) on holiday.There are also a few - a very few - successful entrepreneurs.They would not be clients of one of this forum's main sponsors!

Very few would have even heard of Thai Visa.

I was going to make a detailed reply --- but how can you really say anything to someone that looks down on so many? "snub nosed bargril or barboy" indeed ..

Seems to me some of the successful entrepreneurs ARE forum sponsors

Isn't the crackdown an internal affair? I think Farang should not get involved.

Same same as the Thaksin case. Farang should not get involved.

What you think is irelevent

This is the real world ,so in any country including Thailand things are shaped to a certain degree by world markets and world opinion

People other than Thais that live here or have businesses here,do have a right and an obligation to comment

Again irelevent if you or i agree with them

They have a right

I am so sick of hearing this crap

I have 2 children here that are half Thai,and you nor anybody else can ever tell me that their future is not something i can comment on

When you grow up ,maybe you can visit some other countries and see how it all works then

I'm sick of people saying "same same".

Take some Tylenol, you might get to feel better.

Or simply grow up so you might get some relief from your self created distress(es). It sounds like you've been in the game for too long. 

<snip>

Did you ever have a sense of humour?

Seems to me some of the successful entrepreneurs ARE forum sponsors

Care to name a couple?

Less than 100 killed. What so deadly about this crackdown.

There are more than 60 millions Thais and a few more million Farang.

Those killed is not even the majority.

In fact less than 0.01%

Lets do this but international standards

Oops look at Isreal

You really think the outside world is really worried about Thailand

Thaskin flew over to Isreal yesterday to see if he could learn any new hints

in the middle of a problem he got shot and sent to the undertaker

The undertaker sent an email to the Thai Government

"We have Thasiin dead body at my palour what do you want me to do

For 5000 baht we will bury him here

or we can send back the body for 500,000 baht

10 mins later he got his reply

"Where exactly are you" " and how will he be buried"

So he replied, in the Jewish religious center and we will bury him in a crypt, please send us instructions"

1 hr later he got his reply

"Please return the body to Thailand"

We have just read in a book of your called the Bible

In your country that after 3 days he may re arise

We can not take the chance

Thanking you

PM Thailand

I'm a retired sexpat, squire.

Your status? Dunno. Many bottom feeders including low paid foreign teachers for example - not all - have WPs/correct visas.However it's not a question of being better or worse, and certainly not denigrating.It's just facing facts.

When the Thai Government wants a foreigner view it talks to key Embassies and the Chambers of Commerce.

There is however an international set in Bangkok.Typical indicators would be membership of the Bangkok Club and/or Royal Bangkok Sports Club and possibly British Club (if prepared to slum it), children at top international schools, monthly salary of at least Bt 400,000, here on 3 to 5 contract not because of having fallen in love with some snub nosed bargirl (or barboy) on holiday.There are also a few - a very few - successful entrepreneurs.They would not be clients of one of this forum's main sponsors!

Very few would have even heard of Thai Visa.

Are you sure? In truth you are quite denigrating and insulting. It is in fact this particular attitude amongst Thais that lower paid individuals are somehow inferior that is the root of the divisions in this society. You evidently play your own part in perpetuating that myth.

It's easy to see how he and his ilk are such big Thaksin supporters. In their opinion, the more money you have the more respect should be paid to you and the more worthy your view point. And they have the gall to call those against Thaksin "elitist".

It's easy to see how he and his ilk are such big Thaksin supporters. In their opinion, the more money you have the more respect should be paid to you and the more worthy your view point. And they have the gall to call those against Thaksin "elitist".

Oh I see, the wealthy are those supporting Thaksin and the poor are the ones who go for coups, juntas,dodgy constitutions and "directed" courts.Thanks for making that clear because in my naivety I had thought it the other way round.

It's easy to see how he and his ilk are such big Thaksin supporters. In their opinion, the more money you have the more respect should be paid to you and the more worthy your view point. And they have the gall to call those against Thaksin "elitist".

Oh I see, the wealthy are those supporting Thaksin and the poor are the ones who go for coups, juntas,dodgy constitutions and "directed" courts.Thanks for making that clear because in my naivety I had thought it the other way round.

Hmm that isn't what he said at all! IMHO what he said is that your attitude shows more than just a little 'elitism' and is quite 'classist'.

Your remarks about the courts are AGAIN out of line.

It's easy to see how he and his ilk are such big Thaksin supporters. In their opinion, the more money you have the more respect should be paid to you and the more worthy your view point. And they have the gall to call those against Thaksin "elitist".

Oh I see, the wealthy are those supporting Thaksin and the poor are the ones who go for coups, juntas,dodgy constitutions and "directed" courts.Thanks for making that clear because in my naivety I had thought it the other way round.

Actually ballpoint, I've read enough of jayboy's posts and debated with him often enough to know that despite, at times, outside appearances to the contrary, he is not a Thaksin supporter - he is too critical of him for that - red sympathiser with no great affection for Thaksin would be a better description - although a bit of a mouthful. He is quite unique i believe. Most of the red sympathisers will tell you that they have no great affection for Thaksin, and then procede to defend and excuse him at every turn. Not so jayboy.

Sadly however, all too often his intelligent and well-reasoned opinion (a trait that is indeed hard to come by from his quarter) is drowned out by the pompous, condescending and arrogant manner in which he delivers it. Pity.

Your remarks about the courts are AGAIN out of line.

Out of line with what? Thai Visa rules, the laws of Thailand, good manners? Please advise.

What's not for debate is that the Thai courts over many decades have a poor record for corruption and political bias.It was the case under Thaksin and it's the case now.