Desperate British Expat Searches For Kidnapped Son In Bangkok

[Lammbock]

So let me get this straight. The mother in law kidnapped the son and you don't know where she is right now? <deleted>!!!

[Lumumba]

long thread.

Martin why not try first to get along with the wife and in time sort out your issues with the MIL.

You know more than most of us here that your son is not in any grave danger or very lost.

That's why the police did not get involved, you being a stay at home dad while the Mrs toils would not go down well with them. as the cultural setting is alien in this woods.

If I were you, I would be sending MIL enough money for the young chap for the time being and then re organise your priorities as I do not have much hope with people that bolt for the door as the slightest family argument.It never stops, there will always be lots of it. The kid will be the one that will suffer the most.

I hope the best for him.

[apriljune]

am sorry to hear this,

i felt so sad as i read your post.

i wish i could help you even with a sympathy, i know what you feel right now..

i hope those bad people would die, they shouldn't did it, because all of us are they same, we have feelings.

i well include you to my prayer that you can have your son as soon as possible.

[Bush]

Hi,

I sent you a PM 4 hours ago, did you not receive it?

Martin

Dear Martin,

I'm still waiting to help you (see my previous post) even it is 02:00 am, because

a child needs help.

I expected to receive your contact 1 - 3 hrs ago, at least.

Ok, take your time (what about your son) I will close now, because I have to work hard.

No I didn't receive until now.

Martin, thank you for your response (explanations), we will proceed as agreed on.

[welo]

Martin.

Have you contacted Andrew-Drummond dot com?

If not, why not?

Hmmm, nil response, & it's no wonder there are doubters posting.

Amazing!

C'mon guys (this is not only addressed at GungaDin)!!

Don't you think that the man has other things to do than answer posts on this forum? Maybe he is actually trying to get into contact with the right people and/or take actions.

It's not that he doesn't respond at all...

2010-06-01 18:22:47

2010-06-01 19:00:45

2010-06-01 20:58:21

2010-06-01 22:13:03

2010-06-02 00:52:44

2010-06-02 02:09:11

2010-06-02 10:05:12

2010-06-02 13:28:48

2010-06-02 14:28:28

2010-06-02 14:57:49

I understand that people want to know more details about the story, either out of curiosity, empathy, whatsoever, or to be able to provide better advise.

But I think it is also perfectly understandable that he does not want to discuss the whole personal story here in detail. Maybe he went public in order to get connected to the right people (directly, personally) or put more pressure on the police (just like others here suggested).

Not sharing the details of his story here is by no means a sign of a 'fishy' story IMHO.

welo

[chuang]

[

-until she ran away with him giving her mother an opportunity to have access to him. Her mother took him out of the nursery the day after me and my wife began to sort out our problems and she was due to return home with him, as her mother did not want to see us re-conciliate. I am sure there are many reasons for her to want to do this and believe me I am well aware of most of them but it still gives her no right to keep a child away from his parents.

Martin

Martin, so do you know the reasons your son was taken away....did you ask your wife or her mother.....was he taken away to be in a better hand and care...

[mjperry]

I cannot ask her mother as we have no way to contact her directly and she does not speak english in any case. But no way was he taken away to be in better hands, the reason is perfectly clear, her mother is angry with me/us and is trying to get whatever she selfishly wants or feels she deserves.

Martin

Martin, so do you know the reasons your son was taken away....did you ask your wife or her mother.....was he taken away to be in a better hand and care...

[jboras]

I cannot ask her mother as we have no way to contact her directly and she does not speak english in any case. But no way was he taken away to be in better hands, the reason is perfectly clear, her mother is angry with me/us and is trying to get whatever she selfishly wants or feels she deserves.

Martin

Martin, so do you know the reasons your son was taken away....did you ask your wife or her mother.....was he taken away to be in a better hand and care...

Are you sure she is the real grandmother?

My in-laws that I first met were all stand in accomplises.

I met the real parents when all the shit hit the fan!!!!

[chuang]

I cannot ask her mother as we have no way to contact her directly and she does not speak english in any case. But no way was he taken away to be in better hands, the reason is perfectly clear, her mother is angry with me/us and is trying to get whatever she selfishly wants or feels she deserves.

Martin

Martin, so do you know the reasons your son was taken away....did you ask your wife or her mother.....was he taken away to be in a better hand and care...

What is actually " trying to get whatever she selfishly wants or feel she deserves "....definitely not taking her grandson as her own son....i mean own son..

there must be more to it that meets the eye.....good luck...

[ericthai]

Question is *at this stage* not about money, it is about if you are the legal father or not. If you are, then you can do this yourself, if you are not, then ONLY the mother can legally take action. According to Thai law.

You already have a missing persons report. The person who has custody has the legal right to demand the police to do the second step "saab - like the Thai word for exam" and do the paper work to push the issue of kidnapping to the district atterney (ajjagarn). You (the mother more likely) will need to bring a lawyer to the police station, the police will not want to do it if it is the grand mother who has done the child abduction. But they can be forced to do it

Again: Is your sons mother Thai? Is your son a Thai citizen and if he is, did you register the marriage to the mother? That's the whole key to it all. There is a legal solution, an easy one, but have you gotten the proper process started?

Mikey, hate to tell you this, but this is Thailand and legal does not work in Thailand. Even if everything is legal and he registered that marriage and child's birth showing he is the father the police are still not going to do anything unless they get money, police in Thailand are always looking to get paid to do their job and whoever pays more wins. So you keep stating about thai law and the correct way to resolve this, it's a waste of time, especially when a Falang is involved. Guess you have not been living here long enough to know how things really work. Stick around another 5-10 years and you will understand.

As for Martin, It might be beneficial to hire a private detective to locate the child and then follow his advise on the best way to get your child back, which might be visiting the local police paying them money to escort you to retrieve the child. other option is to negotiate the payment they asked for and pay them and then move so they dont know where you or your child is living so this never happens again. For sure if they win and get money from you once they will try again.

I wish you all the best, and good luck!!!

[atyclb]

Well thought out and well written post. If I may add, Thailand has developed a subculture of women/daughters and their families that specifically seek out foreign men for guess what, "money". There is no lack of scamming nor criminality involved. Kind of sad because this mentality does not promote personal development or vocational/academic pursuits.

I am not saying that your wife is definitely culpable in any way but you have to seriously consider that as a possibility or, at least, consider carefully the fact that she has divided loyalties, if her parents are really involved in the abduction. I would suggest that you start taking some steps independently of your wife, just in case.

One would be to hire a private detective (there are many in Thailand that specialize in finding information about spouses, lovers and other family). In addition to getting him to track down your son, you also need to get him to check up on your wife. This is for your son's protection and your peace of mind. Hopefully nothing untoward will be revealed and you can forget that you ever had to do this. You need to find out what she does and who she sees while you are apart. Check if there are any contacts with her family and, very importantly, check to see if she is still in touch with an old boyfriend or has a new one.

Another step would be to hire a lawyer and brief him without your wife present at least the first time.

Unfortunately it is all too common for young Isaan women who marry foreigners to maintain a Thai boyfriend or unregistered husband on the side, who in turn may be maintaining other women on the side. Isaan in-laws also tend to have very high expectations of what they are going to get out of their daughters who marry foreigners. You just have to spend a little time in Isaan villages and have pointed out to you in envious tones all the farm land that foreigners have bought their wives and the massive tasteless mansions that have been built with the donations of wealthy foreign husbands, not to mention the stories of the super stars who bring many foreign different men to visit their village and to make generous donations believing they enjoy a monopoly of the woman's affections. Of course these success stories are only the tip of the iceberg but they set the standard to live up to for Isaan women marrying foreingers. Unfortunately the reality for most is not that they marry a wealthy foreigner who can afford to dump a lot of money in the village without missing it. Most marry a run of the mill foreigner who struggles to get by and fails to grasp the burden of expectations placed on his wife by her family just because he is a foreigner. The families often believe that their son-in-law has short changed them and can become very bitter with their daughter as a result. This case sadly shows all the signs of being one of these stories and that is why you have to start acting independently until you can prove incontrovertibly this is not the case>

[DangerfieldLives]

Mirage -- Check out Martin's Twitter feed. It may have some inconsistencies with what's in the newspaper, but it's all there. The likelihood that this is all a hoax is unlikely.

I said from the beginning that this could be explained by the family dynamic and Martin's recent posts have proven me right.

Martin writes "Her mother took him out of the nursery the day after me and my wife began to sort out our problems and she was due to return home with him, as her mother did not want to see us re-conciliate. I am sure there are many reasons for her to want to do this and believe me I am well aware of most of them but it still gives her no right to keep a child away from his parents."

So the mother doesn't like Martin -- or the situation of having the kid at day care -- or, possibly, her own daughter shirking what is considered her role in the household by going to work and Martin facilitating it. As he writes, he is well aware of her reasons and they go beyond the mere attempt to extort money from Martin and his wife.

Sounds like we have a case of the moho mother-in-law here. She got angry and did and said some irrational things. She probably wouldn't see taking the child as an irrational act -- she'd consider that her right as grandmum -- but the other parts of this, wishing Martin dead, and playing it up as an extortion call sound to me like a temper gone overboard. The police likely see it this way too and that's why they have not been helpful.

Probably time and a little familial diplomacy could have sorted this matter out, and maybe still can.

Martin, when you do get your son back, you have some major work ahead of you in getting your house in order.

Best wishes.

[sirchai]

This is the way I look at it....

1, Martin and his wife have been arguing and probably stressed out with the demands of looking after a young child and with work commitments.

2, His wife puts her son into day care so she could go back to work and probably free her mind a little for the stress.

3, Grandmother found out that her grandson was in day care and wasn't having any of that as she could take care of him in the village or where ever they live....

4, Martins wife is probably feeling relieved somewhat that her son is in good hands and with family and also not having to pay for expensive day care services etc....

5, Martin is starting to miss his son and demands for his return but his wife is thinking Ummmm probably better he stays with the grandmother, but doesn't tell Martin this of course.

6, Martin is getting more and more frustrated and wants to report to the police etc.... His wife plays along with this to keep him happy.

7, Wife and grandmother have been keeping in contact everyday while shes is at work but doesn't tell Martin this of course

8, Grandmother is starting to feel the financial effects of taking care of a young child and requests money from her daughter....Wife doesn't want to pay out of her own money and tells Martin that grandmother is demanding money to make it sounds more dramatic....AS THEY DO !!!

9, 2 Months go by with the wife passifiying her husband and Martin starts to contact facebook, twitter, new papers, thai visa in a last bid effort.

And this is where we are today with no progress what so ever.

Martin, Please don't take this the wrong way but wake up and take action !!! Get a grip please !!!

10. Mom and Dad always had big fights and some might think it's better for the child to stay somewhere else......

[Loz]

Really can't see why the hoax callers don't just leave this thread alone. There is a proponderance of evidence to support the legitimacy of this. Lets start with the fact that Admin started the thread. knowing how strict they can be I would take it that this has been checked out.

Good luck with getting a sound result.

[Jai Dee]

A number of nasty and malicious posts have been deleted from this thread.

Any more from the same offender(s) and forum posting rights will be revoked.

[Moebius87]

My sympathies go out to Martin and his wife.

My Thai wife and I have a 3-yr-old son, and we don't always get along... so I can only begin to imagine how painful and frustrating this entire situation is for you. I hope that the persons and authorities you have contacted are able to help sort this out before it escalates further. Most importantly I pray that your son comes back to you and your wife, safe and well... and that this incident fades into his childhood memories as an "exciting adventure".

[eggomaniac]

No, he does not have any health problems, he is a perfectly healthy always smiling and happy boy the last I saw him two months ago.

Martin

Martin,

Does the boy have some health problems? Please don't take this the wrong, maybe the photo is poor quality, are his hands and feet okay?

Is the feud, maybe, about medical care? I know from personal experience that some Thais believe in all kinds of extreme and weird, unproven cures.

My apologies. The photo did not translate well then, I thought he had 'club' hand. Still, you have to try to think like them. Thais traditions, cultures, beliefs, superstitions, morals are mysterious.

If you detail what the 'feud' is about, instead of leaving it to guess, maybe someone would have experiences who can help. Was it not paying enough sinsot? Is it whether to raise him as Christian instead of a Buddhist?

--------

Okay, I Replied before reading the next 2 pages. It appears some circumstances, but not details, that should have been in the OP have 'emerged'.

What this Thread NEEDS is Yai's version of the story.

Edited June 2, 2010 by eggomaniac

[zzdocxx]

This is the way I look at it....

1, Martin and his wife. . . etc etc

Interesting ideas, maybe something in all of that.

[welo]

A number of nasty and malicious posts have been deleted from this thread.

Thank you!

Nobody wants to be fooled, and there is always two sides to a story, but this kind of negativism and aggressiveness was too much for me!

And interestingly, whereas one person complained/wondered that Martin is replying slowly, another critic accused him of wasting time in this forum instead of taking actions. But for both it seemed to make it more likely that the story is a hoax.

Good luck, Martin!

[mjperry]

If anyone was still under any doubts about the truthfulness of our story the national UK newspaper the Daily Mail have just run the story on their website, they even made mention of this thread on ThaiVisa and quoted some of the stories of others experiences here

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/...months-ago.html

Edited June 2, 2010 by mjperry

[kuffki]

If anyone was still under any doubts about the truthfulness of our story the national UK newspaper the Daily Mail have just run the story on their website, they even made mention of this thread on ThaiVisa and quoted some of the stories of others experiences here

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/...months-ago.html

Mate. just ignore the few idiots. There always a few for each thread, when they do not have anything useful to add, those always reserve to useless commets

[Foggy Bottom]

Martin

I am sorry to hear about your plight, and wish you the best.

It is good that you have followed some of the more sensible advice tendered regarding the legal route to recovering your son, and I am pleased that you are in touch with Andrew Drummond (just don't let him talk you into exclusive coverage of the story - you may need additional press support before it is all over).

On that note, perhaps you could leverage your contact with Andrew to arrange a "press conference" at the Foreign Correspondents Club in Ploenchit? By holding it there, you would have access to a broad range of journalists from print and TV, from many countries. In particular, exposure of this type of behaviour in a broad press coverage may lift the blinkers from the eyes of many foreigners, in addition to bringing pressure (and shame?) on the Thai authorities for their inaction to date.

It could also, at a critical time for the new UK government, bring to the at-home British public, the lack of capabilities in the British Embassy and Consular system overseas, whilst the Con-Dems (condemns?) are formulating further tightening of immigration rules and criteria for the UK - family situations like yours might be denied immigration to the UK as an escape from the clutches of families like your wife's. I am sure the Brit law makers do not have even the remotest inkling of situations like yours, and broad press coverage might give them pause for thought.

Do not let the critics and trolls on this board get you down. There are a contingent here who disbelieve anything they did not initiate themselves, and always remember that many whose life revolves on a rusty bar stool have absolute faith in the oldest of expatriate mottoes - if you haven't heard a good rumour before lunch, start one. They seem to believe everyone is of the same ilk.

To some of those, I would like to point out a couple of reminders - first is that Martin may not have posted everything here, because perhaps he is mindful that some items, if disclosed before a court hearing, become subjudicy and he could find himself in contempt, or have his evidence dismissed, either of which would damage his case. The other, is that it's possible he has been married to a Thai long enough to feel pressured by the cultural absolute that some things must never be discussed outside of the marriage or family. All of you hounding him for the juicy and gory details, should try putting yourselves in his shoes and ask if you would reveal such information on a public internet forum.

Foggy

Edit to add - while I was typing this post, Martin added his post above about the Daily Mail - good to see a national has picked up the story.

Edited June 2, 2010 by Foggy Bottom

[trigger571]

A number of nasty and malicious posts have been deleted from this thread.

Any more from the same offender(s) and forum posting rights will be revoked.

Great well done mods. Sick of these posts which provide no value.

[hagler]

If anyone was still under any doubts about the truthfulness of our story the national UK newspaper the Daily Mail have just run the story on their website, they even made mention of this thread on ThaiVisa and quoted some of the stories of others experiences here

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/...months-ago.html

Until the "other" side of the story is brought to light ( the mother in law) then this isn't a complete story but a form of spin and just a "cut an paste " job. I hope a good journalist doing their job properly will get out there and do it and complete the picture.

Maternal Grandmothers DONT "kidnap" babies without what they believe is a very good reason. In my case 44 years ago it was because of domestic violence and a highly manipulative situation within the home and she probably saved my and my mothers life. I AM NOT SAYING THAT THIS IS THE CASE IN THIS CASE. (had to say that before I get banned). but I would hate to think that any child was being returned to a situation that wasn't good for its mental or physical health. The authorities ( and maybe the OP and, or his wife, will know where the mother in law is) and her side of the story should be told and investigated before any further actions are taken.

I really do hope that ALL parties end up safe and well out of this whole fiasco.

[kuffki]

If anyone was still under any doubts about the truthfulness of our story the national UK newspaper the Daily Mail have just run the story on their website, they even made mention of this thread on ThaiVisa and quoted some of the stories of others experiences here

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/...months-ago.html

Until the "other" side of the story is brought to light ( the mother in law) then this isn't a complete story but a form of spin and just a "cut an paste " job. I hope a good journalist doing their job properly will get out there and do it and complete the picture.

Maternal Grandmothers DONT "kidnap" babies without what they believe is a very good reason. In my case 44 years ago it was because of domestic violence and a highly manipulative situation within the home and she probably saved my and my mothers life. I AM NOT SAYING THAT THIS IS THE CASE IN THIS CASE. (had to say that before I get banned). but I would hate to think that any child was being returned to a situation that wasn't good for its mental or physical health. The authorities ( and maybe the OP and, or his wife, will know where the mother in law is) and her side of the story should be told and investigated before any further actions are taken.

I really do hope that ALL parties end up safe and well out of this whole fiasco.

Does stupidity know no limits?????

This thread is about a man asking for help and advice , this thread is not about asking for people's opinions on the matter or his personal life.

So many pages, all the remarks from the mods and yet again another one to post totally useless and irrelevant information.

If you that bored, either join other forums or find another thread where you can provide useful information.

[Changian]

If anyone was still under any doubts about the truthfulness of our story the national UK newspaper the Daily Mail have just run the story on their website, they even made mention of this thread on ThaiVisa and quoted some of the stories of others experiences here

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/...months-ago.html

But even this story fails to mention that the baby was taken to Isaan without your consent in mid March for two weeks, before you got him back sometime before your 22 March tweet, and then he was taken again at the end of the month, after he had been back with you for 8 or 9 days.

How did you get the baby back first time round?

What were the circumstances of the initial abduction? From where & by whom?

If Granny took him that time, why not do everything you can to prevent it happening again?

[MikeyIdea]

Question is *at this stage* not about money, it is about if you are the legal father or not. If you are, then you can do this yourself, if you are not, then ONLY the mother can legally take action. According to Thai law.

You already have a missing persons report. The person who has custody has the legal right to demand the police to do the second step "saab - like the Thai word for exam" and do the paper work to push the issue of kidnapping to the district atterney (ajjagarn). You (the mother more likely) will need to bring a lawyer to the police station, the police will not want to do it if it is the grand mother who has done the child abduction. But they can be forced to do it

Again: Is your sons mother Thai? Is your son a Thai citizen and if he is, did you register the marriage to the mother? That's the whole key to it all. There is a legal solution, an easy one, but have you gotten the proper process started?

Mikey, hate to tell you this, but this is Thailand and legal does not work in Thailand. Even if everything is legal and he registered that marriage and child's birth showing he is the father the police are still not going to do anything unless they get money, police in Thailand are always looking to get paid to do their job and whoever pays more wins. So you keep stating about thai law and the correct way to resolve this, it's a waste of time, especially when a Falang is involved. Guess you have not been living here long enough to know how things really work. Stick around another 5-10 years and you will understand.

Incorrect ericthai, I have had plenty of contact with lawyers specialising in family law, and I have had many friends who has gone the legal way when it comes to custody and childrens rights in Thailand over the years; it is actually opposite to what you say.

Juvenile court makes no distinction between western parent or Thai parent because of a simple reason that seem to be lost on many westerners – Thai Juvenile courts takes the childs best into consideration, not the parents best.

I suggest that you read my posts again, you seem to have missed something

The post http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Desperate-Br...96#entry3660396 elaborates on that western interpretation of juvenile law has moved closer to the Thai interpretation the last 25 years. It also includes a phrase that I like and often write:

A good father in Thailand does not have to be afraid of the Thai Juvenile court system. He may not get all he wants but he will get what is best for the child, isn't that what all loving fathers want?

I have already clarified that the police will not act against a member of the extended family in this case. That was in this post; http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Desperate-Br...83#entry3660083

I Repeat: The police will not act against a member of the extended family without a court order, with a court order they will be happy to act. The reason is simple: There are many more cases in Thailand where the grand parents take the child from the parent(s) because it is not cared for properly than it is for mischievous reasons

You are right about one thing - the police won't act against a member of the extended family but wrong that it applies only to westerners – which indicate that you perhaps haven't been here long enough to realise that the issue is factually and culturally based. And you are mixing up civil law, criminal law and juvenile law without distinction. Why is that?

Mikey

Edited June 3, 2010 by MikeyIdea

[Fishman1967]

hi, do you mind telling me in a private message what the address was of that family member.

maybe it is nearby where i am and i can look around.

Same here. I am 5 minutes from there.

[mjperry]

But even this story fails to mention that the baby was taken to Isaan without your consent in mid March for two weeks, before you got him back sometime before your 22 March tweet, and then he was taken again at the end of the month, after he had been back with you for 8 or 9 days.

How did you get the baby back first time round?

What were the circumstances of the initial abduction? From where & by whom?

If Granny took him that time, why not do everything you can to prevent it happening again?

He was with my wife at that time, she took him to Buriram with her friend who she was staying with in Minburi before visiting her family's home in Surin. She brought him back home by herself after this period of separation.

Martin

[edgarfriendly]

wish u the best of luck, anyone who is in this situation knows, its a pain!!

my son has been kept in the northern provinces for the past 2 and a half years.

whilst screaming I WANT NOTHING FROM YOU!! over the phone

i get 'requests' for 3 million baht every so often.

he'll be 3 next week.

and the vermin on here will probly call me a dead beat. (but only the vermin)

bless this mess.

ef