A Game The Family Can Play

[tuky]

As some of you will know I have a baby coming soon, and I will not always be there to make sure she is safe, due to my work commitments.

I am concerned about something I see happening in the family house, perhaps some of you will have some wisdom to impart to me. (That already rules many of you out )

My wife has an older sister who works away, but she leaves her two young boys in the charge of her parents, my in-laws. At the present my wife, the in-laws, the two boys and various other family members (on and off) stay in the same house. Our own house is still under construction and will be completed in approx 16 months.

My wife’s family think it is funny to play with the genitals of the two youngsters (8 and 10 yrs), I am sure this is not a sexual thing. I asked my wife why they do this and she says it is just a game, she said that her Dad used to play with her in the same manner and her two sisters. I told her in Australia this would be against the law and her Dad could be put in prison. I later heard her telling the family what I had said and they all thought this was a hoot and hence were rolling around the floor laughing.

I do not know if I am being over protective, but I told my wife that if her Dad or anyone else ever touches my daughter in the same manner I will take her out of the country and she will never come back (amongst other things). I made her promise me that she will protect our child and did my best to explain to her that a person’s genitalia are for their own amusement alone, not for the amusement of the family unit.

I am really concerned about this because I am still certain my wife does not appreciate the gravity of the situation.

Is this an acceptable thing in Thailand? Let me re-iterate that it is not done sexually, it does seem to be a game, maybe my western upbringing has made me too sensitive but one thing is for sure my daughter will not be involved in any games of that nature.

What are your comments?

this board can be a great source of support for farangs, I have been debating whether to post this question for fear of some of the replies, I am sure you will agree this is a sensative topic, that's why it is important for me to talk with people who may have a better understanding of all things Thai than I do. I do not know any other farang in the LOS so this board has become somewhat akin to a support group. Please bear that in mind.

[Guest IT Manager]

IMHO you seem to be seeing it as a game, not as some form of pre-emptive strike against the kids.

You are the one viewing the activity and seeing repercussions in accordance with what you understand from your home country/judeo christain ethics (there's a laugh when you think about the cathlic priests I guess), and mores from a societal acceptance pattern of thought.

I live in a small Thai village. I have many friends, many of them with kids. Seems strange I have never seen such a thing occuring.

I read that you are talking about a family unit, you even use the expression. Think about it less as a Thai thing and rather as a family thing.

The unit is together and multi-generational including a father (your father in law I guess), an accepting mother, siblings (your wife and her sisters/brothers), who have seen/participated in the game since they were your childs age, and so are used to/conditioned to/accepting of it as a game only.

Who started it.

Do you feel uncomfortable with it. Ask yourself why?

Do the people subjected to/participating, seem to be getting off on it?

Do they do it in front of Thai people from outside the family? Or just around family unit members?

Does anyone seem to not enjoy the attention?

Ask them why?

Again, IMHO, you are seeing a conditioning game. This could be unfair, let me say that up-front, but if one takes a long term view, do the participants get into any frivolity outside the lounge room with each other?

It's about looking and reading and listening to what is happening, but certainly none of my Thai friends do it, but would be interested to know what other forum visitors/members' take on it is.

You don't say what part ofThailand, which may of course be different to what happens around Chiang Mai for example. I would be interested to follow your reasoning on this, and also what response your wife gave to your ultimatum.

If as you say, you are sure it isn't a sexual thing, and your take is premised on what you have been brought up to believe, you may put yourself in an uncomfortable situation, having told your wife you will remove your daughter. Maybe you need to re-assess your view, but, in my view, I would be at least unimpressed with someone, family or otherwise, groping my sons.

I did not however, make a big deal about when my oldest boy was 12 or so when he would go swimming with other kids i the village, and on one occasion when I went to get him, they were all having a drop your pants and show me yours etc afternoon, exactly as I did with my friends when I was (a bit) younger than he was.

For your own peace of mind, if nothing else, it should be about assessment of reasoning, activity in front of others and the possibility of activity among the players, out of publc view, and make a decision from there. If it is a conditioning game, look at the starter, and ask yourself why?

[TRIPxCORE]

Hello Sir,

Where exactly are you living in Thailand? I asked my wife about this and she informed me that this is a normal practice among some Thai families that still live in the provinces of Thailand. It is not meant at all in a sexual way and in the eyes of the Thai people, its completely harmless. When the children reach a certain age, this practice should cease though. If you are uncomfortable with it, reiterate to your wife how strongly you disagree with the practice without losing your temper. Hopefully she will understand and the decisions about your children should be made by the two of you and not her family.

Being a farang myself, I too would be very uncomfortable with this as you are. Most farang are brought up learning that touching children in that manner is not to be done. Although we are in a different country trying to abide by Thai customs, some things we cannot go along with and if it was my kid, I would put a stop to it immediately. Hope this helped and Good luck.

[Edward B]

I must say I was a little shocked when I first read your post but I think it comes down to the difference in culture. Your initial reaction was shock / anger etc. which was totally understandable. However, threatening to take your child away and leave the country was, in my view, a bad and hasty decision. We all have to remember that we are in a very different country and one which has totally different customs, customs which may seem very strange and even immoral. We have to try to come to terms with these customs, otherwise our knee-jerk reactions will only invoke confusion, embarrassment and long-lasting ill-will.

[sbk]

I'm in the south, very rural and I have to be honest. Although I frequently see this done to boys I have never seen it done to girls and I have been living here nearly 15 years. I'll pass this one by my husband and see what he thinks but frankly, if it were my kid, I wouldn't like it either. Here, when they do it to boys, frankly, it seems to be more of a humiliation thing. I understand where you are coming from, trying not to be judgemental, but when I see a little boy howling because some people (men and women do it but it seems to be predominantly men) won't leave his little penis alone, I just don't see the humor in it.

And as for the whole judeo-christian culture argument, lets face it, your daughter will be living in both worlds, some things she will get from your culture, some from her mothers.

[tuky]

IMHO you seem to be seeing it as a game, not as some form of pre-emptive strike against the kids.

IT, with due respect if I did see it as a game I wouldn't have posted my concerns on this board for all to read, it is the family that see it as a game.

I read that you are talking about a family unit, you even use the expression. Think about it less as a Thai thing and rather as a family thing.

I asked my wife about this and she informed me that this is a normal practice among some Thai families that still live in the provinces of Thailand. It is not meant at all in a sexual way and in the eyes of the Thai people, its completely harmless.

This is basically the question that I wanted answered, is it sinister or is it innocent? ofcourse in my eyes I agree with...

I'm just thankful it's not my genitals being playe with.

The family get along very well, the two boys sleep with the father in law on the floor and nothing unusual seems to take place. The mother in law sleeps there too plus various other members of the extended family.

tripx We are now in Sriracha but originally from Udon thani.

Do you feel uncomfortable with it. Ask yourself why?

Do the people subjected to/participating, seem to be getting off on it?

Do they do it in front of Thai people from outside the family? Or just around family unit members?

Does anyone seem to not enjoy the attention?

Ask them why?

1. I am not comfortable with it IT, why? because...in my culture it is just not done, in my/our cultures it often leads to one becoming confused about ones identity. If a young boy is subjected to this treatment he may end up feeling that he should BE a girl hence behaving like one (this is one of the many reason a man might become a woman) Every one has the right to keep their private parts private, they are not a toy for all to share. (not until your atleast 18 )

2. This is hard to answer, it appears as though it just some harmless fun on all sides, but who knows ones true feelings but ones self?

3. Having visitors doesn't seem to deter the activities, this is why I got the initial impression that it is not sexual in nature.

3. see answer 2.

4. My wife says they do it because it is fun, she says even she likes to have some fun and grab the kids by the balls.

If you are uncomfortable with it, reiterate to your wife how strongly you disagree with the practice without losing your temper. Hopefully she will understand and the decisions about your children should be made by the two of you and not her family.

I agree, she seems to agree, but I know that by the way she looks at me she is think "crazy farang"

We will have our own house in 16 months, when the baby is 3 months+ maybe I will bring her up here to work with me.

[tuky]

Hi SBK thanks for your reply...

Although I frequently see this done to boys I have never seen it done to girls and I have been living here nearly 15 years.

good to know, I think

However, threatening to take your child away and leave the country was, in my view, a bad and hasty decision. We all have to remember that we are in a very different country and one which has totally different customs, customs which may seem very strange and even immoral.

Edward B, I did this in privacy with my wife, i needed to get through to her that in my society this is a practise that is not encouraged, but also if I cannot be certain of the safety of my child i have no choice but to remove her to an environment that I can provide safety for her during these vulnerable years of her life, My wife didn't take me seriously until I made that threat, ofcourse with a proper explaination.

We all have to remember that we are in a very different country and one which has totally different customs,

And as for the whole judeo-christian culture argument, lets face it, your daughter will be living in both worlds, some things she will get from your culture, some from her mothers.

I cannot let my daughter go to australia and find out that something that happened to her in Thailand is something that is considered taboo there, how would she feel?

I feel better knowing that it isn't just "a game the family can play".

But this still doesn't make things right, I feel an obligation to stop the games played on the little boys, but considering the cultural differences I don't know if it is my place to step in and enforce my morals on them. So I don't, which is a very hard thing to do.

My wife's family are wonderful people and I love them to bits, I truly believe they would never intentionally hurt anyone as I have seen by many of their other actions. The two boys are happy enough and it is obvious they love their grandfather and the rest of the family, so no harm done? lets wait and see.

I will continue to be diligent in letting my wife know that our daughter, and any future sons are not to become involved in these so called games.

Whilst I am in Thailand I do my best to fit in, but I have to do my best for my child too so that she will fit in to my country if/when we go back there.

[sbk]

just talked to my husband and he said, no, he's never seen anyone play with little girls like that. he said, if he heard of a man playing with a little girl like that he would think there was something wrong with him. so, you might want to make it clear to your wife that altho it is ok with her family, it is not ok with you. perhaps you might point out that as marriage is always give and take, perhaps she could give you this one (as it is a non-negotiable) and speak to her family. do what my husband does, "well, you know, farang are different". my husband and i have had similar problems (ie things that are non-negotiable) and have always worked things out. good luck to you!

[monitorlizard]

I have to agree what others said about it being odd used with girls. However, you are the only one to judge if it is improper or something else behind the game. And from what you said this is not the case.

SBK is absolutely correct that there needs to be some give and take or the "Big C"

which is compromise.

In this case, I completely agree with your reasoning and the threat (I would have probally made it as well) seemed to do the trick. I don't buy into the theory that we have to accept all the cultural nuances of the new country we now live. Some of the beliefs are based on ignorance and quite rightly need to be challanged by you so your family members can learn.

Please do not take the above statement as a put down on Thai culture. There are many things I absolutely love about Thai culture but at the same time I disagree with a few things. This touching of girls private area as a game is one of them. I mean it is alright to clean if they are babies.

Again, I do not mean to be critical of Thai culture but we must remember that we will never be Thai. We have our own identity, culture, learning experinces, and so on which makes us unique.

In our house I usually compromise. I rarely get into a fight because of the cultural differences. I can drop it after 5 minutes and move on......my wife cannot do this! It is impossible for her. She will brew on it for weeks, months, and I even suspect the remainder of her life. It is locked up in some compartment of her brain ready to be used as the circumstance demands.

Good luck. I would tell your wife to tell your in laws so they won't be hurt. Let her explain to them that you feel very uncomfortable with this practice and it is a big NO-NO in Australia. You can tell them that if you go back to Australia for a visit and if she ever told someone of this game that the parents would be arrested and the child taken into custodity.

[mydrawingtable]

STOP IT NOW.. IT IS NOT A GAME

Hello

My sisters and I were sexually abused when I was 8 & my sisters were 6 and 4 years old by our relatives (male). We lived in Bangkok. Our parents are well educated (university degrees) but still they had no idea what happening under their own roof. We thought that was a game.

If you've seen someone playing with a child and felt uncomfortable " Don't ignore the behavior", ask them questions about what you have seen.

Warning signs if a child may have been abused

- Nightmares, trouble sleeping, fear of the dark, or other sleeping problems.

- Loss of appetite, or trouble eating or swallowing.

- Sudden mood swings

- Fear of certain people or places

- Stomach illness all of the time with no identifiable reason.

- An older child behaving like a younger child, such as bed-wetting

- Sexual activities with toys or other children, such as simulating sex with dolls or asking other children/siblings to behave sexually.

- New words for private body parts.

As I mentioned above.. IT IS NOT A GAME!!

All the best

[D80]

Hi there,

I don't know about others, but this wasn't a game in my family when I was growing up in Thailand. Perhaps it is different in BKK, I don't know. I know that different provinces have their own idea of what is acceptable and what is not. So, don't take it all from me....

I have heard of stories about family members (not mine) teasing boys by joking about his genitalia (I've heard a dad teasing his son 'I hope you won't make some nice girl cry with what you've got when you grow up!'). But it all seems to be about the fact that sex (including sexual organs) is taboo to Thai society and the joke was just to get around that. And usually it was just verbal. I haven't witnessed any physical 'game' to do with grabbing some kid's private part.

The most I have witnessed was when a boy cousin of mine was a baby and his mum was cleaning him. Some friend of his dad went up to have a look and announced 'the kid takes after his dad! hahahah'. But that's about it...and I have seen that done here in the West as a joke as well.

I can see why you wouldn't feel comfortable with the practice. I wouldn't be either and I am Thai!!

There is a possibility that the family just see it as harmless laugh. They might not think of what implication it has since they only see the kids as children. It might be that because they see the kids as children and non-sexual that they don't see anything wrong with the way they were treating them.

But at the worst case scenario, it may be what mydrawingtable was explaining (BTW, I'm so sorry to hear about your experience).

Anyway, as a precausion, If I were you, I would definitely tell my partner that I am NOT comfortable with this idea at all. As others have said, you could use the fact that you are a farang to your advantage by saying farangs are different about this without having to explain much more. Get your wife to talk to the rest of the relatives to avoid any misunderstanding.

Hope you'll get it all sorted out soon. It must have been diffficult for you as it is indeed a very sensitive subject.

[monitorlizard]

You have my sympathy drawingtable. Sounds like your strength helped you overcome that horrible experience. Thanks for sharing this pain and as a warning to all people.

I have to agree with D80 that you need to stop this imediately. Get your wife to act on your behalf. Let her use whatever explanation to get your family members to stop.

[ThaiAdventure]

I think you know the answerand if you were in your own country you would have gone straight to the police. Paedophilia has the same definition in any country and is often introduced to the child as a "game".

It is your child, your responsibility and youwill have to live with the repercussions in later life....not the family. If you are in any doubt still why not ask a policeman and see what he thinks is appropraite for Thailand?

This is not a question for the forum. It is a question for the authorities.

[Guest IT Manager]

Quoting Thaiadventure

"I think you know the answerand if you were in your own country you would have gone straight to the police. Paedophilia has the same definition in any country and is often introduced to the child as a "game"

This is what is was referring to as "A conditioning game". It prepares kids for full on abuse later. My apologies for not making that clear in my first paragraph. I mis-wrote it badly. In my opinion, and this is why I pointed out it seems to be familial, the kids have grown up with abuse being a part of daily life and now as adults they accept it as such and my question remains "where does it begin?"

Personally I would hold a weaather eye on the oldest participant.

As others have said, tell your wife it isn't acceptable, be careful with the threats, because that may come back and bite you one day. They need to be voiced perhaps differently.

My thoughts are with mydrawingtable and as others have said, it takes a strong heart to express that sort of pain in a public place, even with the relative security of keyboard and nick provided here.

[KevinN]

I have shown the main post to my Thai wife,She read it and got a funny look frown on her face and said "No THIS IS NEVER DONE AND IT IS NOT RIGHT" and she was born 44 years ago and raised in Phetchabun Prov. and is a school teacher today.

I know that if that rotten old sun of a bitch ever touched my daughter/step daughter like that they would have him in orthopedic shirts for the rest of his life.

I would make it plain and clear and understood by my wife that my child was never to be allowed around or in the same room with your pervert father in law. just because the pervert raised his daughters to be indoctronated in that life style and to accept it does not make it right.

And I would go straight to the police chief in my area and report the perv.and insist that something be done.

I have raised children,my oldest daughter is 46 and my youngest is now 8 and who I raised by myself from the time she was 4 days old til she was taken from me by her mother for the $625 per month child support she could get at the age of 6, and never was anything like that even thought of.

WOW I will get outta here cause this makes me so mad I can't even think. Keep me up to speed on this,will you,as I am interested in just what kind of country I decide to spend the rest of my life in.,Thanks

[huski]

i agree with mydrawingtable, that is not a game. bottom line is you are the father and you need to protect your child. i would take out someone's teeth if they tried something like that to my daughter.

asked my thai wife if she has heard of this in thailand, she said no that's abusive. luckily my wife's family is pretty normal, they only want money whenever they come by.

[tuky]

Thank you everybody, whilst those of us from a different culture need to respect the Thai culture, a line needs to be drawn in some circumstances.

Culture does not dictate where the line is drawn in this circumstance, common decency does, humanity does, responsibillity does.

This is not a question for the forum. It is a question for the authorities.

TA your absolutely right.

My child is yet to be born, she will be my first child and I am nervous about how I will be as a father, I want to be the best I can be for my baby.

I have tried to be moderate in my message tone as I wanted responses from both sides of the fence, this I have.

I have strong feelings about what I have seen, and I now know what I am going to do about it.

I didn't have any intention of upsetting anybody, bringing up painful memories or insulting the Thai people as a whole, I apologise to anybody who may have read my question in the wrong way.

There are heros amongst us, and there are victims. Sometimes we do not choose what happens to us but we can choose how we react, Drawingtable you are a hero.

I want you to know that while a child cannot understand the difference between right and wrong in an adult world, the adults around that child can. I will forever do my very best to make sure my daughter is not subjected to unfair treatment, thank you so much for your post.