Drugs In The Villages On The Rise Again

[rebo]

About 10 years ago we had a real drug problem in our and the neighbor villages (at that time “Yaa Maa”). Teenagers got out of control. Everything changed when the “war on drugs” was started. The villages became almost completely drug-free. The dealers disappeared, problem was “solved” …

Since two years our workers (all of them are parents, Saraphi area) are constantly complaining about a rising drug problem again. The dealers seem to have done their time and return to their (parent’s) villages, equipped with better knowledge, connections and strategies.

Yesterday I joined our daughter’s (28th) birthday party at Ban Wiang Nong Long in Lamphun and met a lot of local parents/grand parents. Their biggest problem: Drugs! It seems not one single family is not affected by some means or other.

Of course, many of them are “red” but what I saw, not due to money issues but the rising drug problem.

They told me this is why they want “him” back: Rigorous elimination of what’s destroying their families, community: Drugs of any kind (Nobody spoke about alcohol of course …).

I held myself off with comments but driving back home I thought this may be the main problem of otherwise relatively satisfied upcountry population which must be solved to regain peace in their hearts …

What do you think …?

[kevozman1]

Did you mean "Yaa Bah".

I do not think drugs are the biggest problem. There are problems but

I have to Say when I lived in london drugs where much more prevalent

than anywhere I have seen in Thailand.

I would say there is a bigger problem with Alchohol.

[crazyawm]

i read thai gazette, and in gazette write: now possible buy drugs in any uni and any high shcool or college, and drug dealer in school it main problem

but not dealer - not problem

i think need again "green pickup"

[mangkorn]

Why don't the red police do their job, of enforcing basic laws? Why don't the red parents do their job, of raising their children?

Are they all so helpless that they need Big Red to come and do everything for the Little Reds?

If they think everything in life is resolved by an autocrat, they know nothing about the "democracy" that they claim to want.

[twofortheroad]

Did you mean "Yaa Bah".

I do not think drugs are the biggest problem. There are problems but

I have to Say when I lived in london drugs where much more prevalent

than anywhere I have seen in Thailand.

I would say there is a bigger problem with Alchohol.

Amphetamines used to be known as Yaa Maa (horse drug) because it helped people to work longer hours (labourers and bus drivers). About 10 years ago there was a spate of incidents in which guys high on Yaa Maa went on crazy rampages wielding a knife threatening to kill the girlfriend, the kids or themselves. Also a lot of big death accidents due to bus/truck drivers falling asleep when the effects of the drug wore off. A short while later, in an attempt to convince people not to take drugs the government agencies decided that it would be a good idea to change the image of the drug and instead of calling it Yaa Maa (which implied it made you as strong as a horse) they suggested that from then on it should be called Yaa Baa (crazy drug) which implied that taking this drug would make you crazy. The press agreed, so Yaa baa became the standard. It was so successful that you hardly hear a reference to Yaa Maa any more.

Thailand does have a big drug problem and I can recall that my wife was telling me there was a problem in the schools when my kids were younger - ten or twelve year olds were selling them . When Thaksin had his war on drugs a lot of ordinary people supported it because they didn't like it being sold to such young people.

As far as I remember there was a warning before the operation took place - a month or so. The word was put around - if you're selling drugs stop, if your friends are selling drugs stay away from them, because next month we're going to sort it out. When they went ahead and did it a lot of people approved, because they thought those that were killed were stupid not to heed the warnings. Supposedly, the drug problem diminished.

It may seem harsh, but I wouldn't be surprised if the average mother or father in the West had a similar view. How many people sympathise with a drug dealer being shot? Not your average Joe who's kids are being targetted by these guys.

I'm not saying that I approved of the methods, but there are a lot of peole that did. One of the reasons they supported Thaksin!!

In the West , most people have no faith in the judicial system and are sick and tired of hearing about drug-related crime, so I wouldn't be surprised that the majority there would approve an extra-judicial system. Drug-dealers aren't very popular.

Edited June 10, 2010 by twofortheroad

[Ulysses G.]

About 10 years ago there was a spate of incidents in which guys high on Yaa Maa went on crazy rampages wielding a knife threatening to kill the girlfriend, the kids or themselves.

Thai men high on speed and holding a knife to a baby or a young girl hostage's throat on top of Thapae Gate was a somewhat regular occurence before the "war on drugs". The police would spend hours trying to talk them down with TV cameras and crowds watching their efforts. It has not happened since the big crackdown that I am aware of.

Edited June 11, 2010 by Ulysses G.

[jaideeguy]

Mr 'T' never let that happen on his watch......say what you want, but he was 'the devil you knew' and he kept the riff raff under control with their nasty drugs and stupid gambling.

Sure there was some 'collateral dammage' but in any war, there is some and the over all deaths and social harm from drugs and gambling were minimised....looking at the big picture.

just my 2 thb.........

[Rasseru]

It is said too that Mussolini made the trains run on time.

[chaoyang]

Yes, people seem to have forgotten that Thaksin's go-head to the police to simply execute drug dealers was widely supported, seemingly even amongst the well-entrenched elite that later became his arch-enemies.

Ya baa use, abuse and addiction was an enormous problem that was ripping the fabric of village society apart. I knew a girl whose father was executed on the road to Samoeng; she claimed he was innocent, of course. Aside from the obvious issues of the right to trial and to refute allegations, the summary killings might have been used to settle other scores. In her case, the family's businesses, money and property were seized. I have no idea where the assets went or if any of them were returned.

So typical of Thailand: layer upon layer of murky self-interest, possible corruption or criminality -- by all sides.

[nikster]

Interesting that extra-judicial killings on a wide scale apparently have worked.

Not something I could ever get behind though. Another solution that works needs to be found.

[garyh]

Interesting that extra-judicial killings on a wide scale apparently have worked.

Not something I could ever get behind though. Another solution that works needs to be found.

Well trained non corrupt police would go a long way.

[AndersSN]

Interesting that extra-judicial killings on a wide scale apparently have worked.

Not something I could ever get behind though. Another solution that works needs to be found.

Well trained non corrupt police would go a long way.

An education system that actually thought some thing of value in the 21st century would help as well.

[rebo]

... extra-judicial killings on a wide scale apparently have worked.

Another solution that works needs to be found.

Extra-judical killings wouldn't be necessary at all. Thailand has a proper law system to be used.

A better education is certainly the best way to get the root of the problem but needs too long time to have a lasting effect. The people need their children saved now.

I think if Abhisit could really noticably get a grip on illegal drug supply lots of reds would change their mind and their cross on the ballot next time.

[mogoso]

Interesting that extra-judicial killings on a wide scale apparently have worked.

Not something I could ever get behind though. Another solution that works needs to be found.

Lobotomies work for me. No killings, no more drug sales

[garyh]

Interesting that extra-judicial killings on a wide scale apparently have worked.

Not something I could ever get behind though. Another solution that works needs to be found.

Lobotomies work for me. No killings, no more drug sales

Did you have it done recently?

[mogoso]

Interesting that extra-judicial killings on a wide scale apparently have worked.

Not something I could ever get behind though. Another solution that works needs to be found.

Well trained non corrupt police would go a long way.

An education system that actually thought some thing of value in the 21st century would help as well.

I'd hope it'd be something other than those used in the US and Europe, as drug use is rampart and attitudes toward its usage are permissive. No reason to burden Thailand with western thought that doesn't work.

[mogoso]

Lobotomies work for me. No killings, no more drug sales

Did you have it done recently?

No I was waiting to see how it affected you.

[IanForbes]

The simple solution would be to legalize all drugs and make them almost free. That would take away the profits from pushers. Only the stupid would take drugs and eventually kill themselves. That would solve two problems... less stupid people and no pushers. Nobody is going to waste time and energy manufacturing drugs if there is no profit in it. We've already got two terrible drugs that are legal... alcohol and cigarettes.

[chaoyang]

The simple solution would be to legalize all drugs and make them almost free. That would take away the profits from pushers. Only the stupid would take drugs and eventually kill themselves. That would solve two problems... less stupid people and no pushers. Nobody is going to waste time and energy manufacturing drugs if there is no profit in it. We've already got two terrible drugs that are legal... alcohol and cigarettes.

Right ... we'll put you next door to the raging, psychotic yaa baa addict for them time it takes him to reach the final, fatal explosion. The collateral damage is the problem with these guys. He'll take out half the neighborhood before he expires.

Edited June 14, 2010 by chaoyang

[Lizard2010]

Bringing him back will not help.

The only way to keep the drugs down is to dob in the drug dealers then the supply will chain will break down.

[zuzkate]

It is said too that Mussolini made the trains run on time.

good point !

ya baa has never left the streets of thailand regardless of what the blood thristy government killers pull off it just is a bit more quite now .

Check the government rehab in mai rim then you will find and understand the real problem....

Boo hoo about all the hopeless drunks,

These people are the problem here, The #1 drug problem .

[Ned]

A lot of money lenders copped it too apparently during the frenzied killing which accompanied the War on Drugs. As they say: "When a horse is scratched from the race.....all bets are off!"

[Murgatroyd]

I would imagine that when a drugs dealer or a money lender was eliminated from the food chain his assets were aqquired by his executioners... Most of the drugs that were confiscated would have resurfaced later for marketing by "Protected" individuals. And I'd be very suprised if there were any substantial amounts of money handed in... A very profitable enterprise for the death squads. I'd also be suprised if many of the people high up in the chain of supply were touched at all... just the low ranking dealers and maybe a few of the middle ranking couriers.

Thus the marketing and production operations were left largely untouched, and merely kept a low profile for a while.

I'd also be interested to see the proportion of casualties of ganja dealers to the purveyors of the far more dangerous drugs... in most western countries the police arrest a whold bunch of dope smokers and street dealers whilst leaving the smack and crack networks almost totally untouched. That's because it's a lot easier and safer to bust a bunch of non-violent mariujana affectionados than it is to go after the mac 10 wielding crack gangs. It's also because the cocaine and heroin suppliers make vast amounts of profits, some of which is made available as bribes. The average cannabis street dealer hardly makes enough to pay his bills. The police or DEA can then claim a huge victory in the war on drugs when all they've really done was to bust a bunch of stoners, very few of which commit violent crimes to support their habits. Meanwhile the epidemic of drug related robberies and burglries continue unabated.

[spirit47]

Talking about drugs, but not about alcohol, how stupid can people be?

Drunken parents discuss about drugs that will damage their familys...

Drunken Parents making Karaoke-partys with little children...

Drunken Parents driving cars...

The biggest Pushers in the world get tax, I think, it make them angry, when people spend money on the black market.

Drugs are a problem, make people walking in fog...

But driving in the night through BKK is dangerous, a lot of drunken drivers on the road.

Every hour 3 dead in Thailand on alcohol, horrible if you look behind...

[LJW]

The simple solution would be to legalize all drugs and make them almost free. That would take away the profits from pushers. Only the stupid would take drugs and eventually kill themselves. That would solve two problems... less stupid people and no pushers. Nobody is going to waste time and energy manufacturing drugs if there is no profit in it. We've already got two terrible drugs that are legal... alcohol and cigarettes.

I think that you have been in Canada too long

Legalizing drugs would not work the way you think in Thailand.

[kpmsprtd]

The simple solution would be to legalize all drugs and make them almost free. That would take away the profits from pushers. Only the stupid would take drugs and eventually kill themselves. That would solve two problems... less stupid people and no pushers. Nobody is going to waste time and energy manufacturing drugs if there is no profit in it. We've already got two terrible drugs that are legal... alcohol and cigarettes.

Thanks, Ian, for trying. That's all that people like you and me can do. I will include the obligatory link to the website where former drug warriors (law enforcement, judges, prosecutors, etc.) make cogent arguments regarding the futility of Drug Prohibition.

LEAP - Law Enforcement Against Prohibition

[scorecard]

Did you mean "Yaa Bah".

I do not think drugs are the biggest problem. There are problems but

I have to Say when I lived in london drugs where much more prevalent

than anywhere I have seen in Thailand.

I would say there is a bigger problem with Alchohol.

Amphetamines used  to be known as Yaa Maa (horse drug) because it helped people to work longer hours (labourers and bus drivers). About 10 years ago there was  a spate of  incidents in which guys high on Yaa Maa went on crazy rampages wielding a knife threatening to kill the girlfriend, the kids or themselves. Also a lot of big death accidents due to bus/truck drivers falling asleep when the effects of the drug wore off.  A short while later, in an attempt to convince people not to take drugs the government agencies decided that it would be a good idea to change the image of the drug and instead of calling it Yaa Maa (which implied it made you as strong as a horse) they suggested that from then on it should be called Yaa Baa (crazy drug) which implied that taking this drug would make you crazy. The press agreed, so Yaa baa became the standard. It was so successful that you hardly hear a reference to Yaa Maa any more.

Thailand does have a big drug problem and I can recall that my wife was telling me there was a problem in the schools when my kids were younger - ten or twelve year olds were selling them . When Thaksin had his war on drugs a lot of ordinary people supported it because they didn't like it being sold to such young people.

As far as I remember there was a warning before the operation took place - a month or so. The word was put around - if you're selling drugs stop, if your friends are selling drugs stay away from them, because next month we're going to sort it out. When they went ahead and did it a lot of people approved, because they thought those that were killed were stupid not to heed the warnings. Supposedly, the drug problem diminished. 

It may seem harsh, but I wouldn't be surprised if the average mother or father in the West had a similar view. How many people sympathise with a drug dealer being shot? Not your average Joe who's kids are being targetted by these guys.

I'm not saying that I approved of the methods, but there are a lot of peole that did. One of the reasons they supported Thaksin!!

In the West , most people have no faith in the judicial system and are sick and tired of hearing about drug-related crime, so I wouldn't be surprised that  the majority there would approve an extra-judicial system. Drug-dealers aren't very popular.

You raise lots of points that are worth discussing, worth comment:

- I can't agree with you that "When Thaksin had his war on drugs a lot of ordinary people supported it because they didn't like it being sold to such young people."

There has been plenty of evidence that the supporters were in the minority and the vast majority of supporters were parents who were desperate for 'something' to get their addicted kids away from drugs and were not really thinking of the whole picture (understandable to some extent).

There are also many many Thais who realize that 'extra judicial killings' by the police is very very wrong. Many are also well aware that the police should have been much more active for years to suppress drugs, many are aware that there are plenty of police who are very involved. For the police to then be the 'enforcers' by instant assassinations is rather ironic to say the least. 30 days notice is surely not a valid point, not at all. T has a Ph.D. in Criminal Justice and would be well aware that his actions were wrong and were in fact very very serious crimes against humanity by international law.

Many Thais are also aware that 'his' war on drugs was mostly driven by a personal ventetta because of problems close to 'him', rather than a 'war for Thai people on drugs'.

What also needs to be restated is that not one 'kingpin' (not one) was ever caught, in fact the police didn't go anywhere the kingpins (well known to include ruthless scaly politicians).

Also, why didn't the police maintain a higher level of vigilance, monitoring, action to catch any dealers as they reappeared?

I suggest there's also an interesting 'test' that could be applied in terms of support for 'extra judicial killings', it goes like this;

" If your totally innocent, totally uninvoled, totally upstanding wife or your son, father, nephew, etc., just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time and was assassinated by trigger happy licence to kill police, then you would say 'never mind, it's OK?"

If anybody said "Yes, it's all OK.", then my reaction would be your not telling the truth!"

What's also true is that all PMs should (amongst other things) be the moral compass, guiding / encouraging the people to see things / practice things in highly ethical ways, clearly/deliberately showing respect for the law and for the processes of justice, building the morals and ethics of the young people. 'Extra judicial killings' is certainly not guiding youngsters in the right direction, does much damage to the judicial system, encourages the police to be 'thugs' rather than protectors, and sets very very undesirable precedents, which are totally at odds with building a civil society.

T could have taken other approaches to the drug problems:

- Finding and severly punishing the kingpins. He didn't, they were totally untouched!

- Creating policy and actions which quickly provide more opportunities / more valuabale opportunites for the young, and in fact for all Thais. Education is very obviously the key to opportunity, T (And many other previous governments, to be fair) made lots of noise about education and made his usual claims of 'i'll fix it in six months' and then in fact did nothing / achieved nothing, and after six months he quietly handed the education portfolio to someone who couldn't even spell education. (Lack of opportunity, feeling left behind, people feeling that they are misfits, have no chance to gain employment, have no chance of building any future is feeling, used by ruthless job agents etc., are clearly more likely to turn to drugs.)

T had lots of analysis and data available to him in regard to the social problems generated world wide by large numbers of the population wanting to reap benefits from industrialization.

The few countries who have achieved better results have made it policy that new industrries / new factories etc etc must be spread right across the country, even if that means subsidies on freight, etc., and also ensured that quality education is available and encouraged right across the country.

Did he work towards any of this? NO! He gave opportunistic handouts, sustaining the problems, encouraging very large numbers of Thais to be dependant on handouts. Not exactly a moral compass.

If the red leaders are stirring up support by claiming that T did good in his 'war on drugs' and let's get him back to do it again, then my suggestion is that the red leaders are totally immoral and totally dishonest and I would be wondering 'what's in it for the red leaders?

It's been discussed before, many of he red leaders are quite well educated and know very well what is right or wrong, what is moral and what is immoral, but their personal greed quickly and strongly overrides everything.

[jayjay0]

Interesting that extra-judicial killings on a wide scale apparently have worked.

Not something I could ever get behind though. Another solution that works needs to be found.

Well trained non corrupt police would go a long way.

An education system that actually thought some thing of value in the 21st century would help as well.

Beg to differ.

Kids are not taking drugs because they are stupid.

For the most part it is peer pressure. Also what do they see at home. To them it is all escapism. There parents do it with alcohol and they see no difference. As long as Alcohol is presented as a OK thing the problem will continue. What is needed is the teaching of a better moral value before they ever get to school. JMO

[CheGuava]

The simple solution would be to legalize all drugs and make them almost free. That would take away the profits from pushers. Only the stupid would take drugs and eventually kill themselves. That would solve two problems... less stupid people and no pushers. Nobody is going to waste time and energy manufacturing drugs if there is no profit in it. We've already got two terrible drugs that are legal... alcohol and cigarettes.

Thanks, Ian, for trying. That's all that people like you and me can do. I will include the obligatory link to the website where former drug warriors (law enforcement, judges, prosecutors, etc.) make cogent arguments regarding the futility of Drug Prohibition.

LEAP - Law Enforcement Against Prohibition

Many people go through silly phases in life. When my children hit puberty and inevitably go through a stupid phase, I'd prefer it if crack cocaine wasn't available at 7-Eleven for the price of a can of Pepsi. Call me silly.

[sibeymai]

War on Drugs, War on Terror: slogans dreamed up by the politician's spin doctors. Thaksin's war had little effect, as does the US's much publicised efforts against drugs and terror.

There has never been more than a very temporary shortage of any drugs in Thailand as a result of law enforcement actions (legal or otherwise). I would dare to say probably not even a shortage, but rather simply making availability more complicated with the added effect of concentrating the supply amongst the better organised and connected criminals. All of which results in the emergence of a stronger organisation later, rather like a virus which develops an immunity to certain treatments.

All that can be said is that the management policies which have been tried over the last 50 or more years have been demonstrated to have completely failed in their objectives. The question which must be addressed but which is constantly avoided is whether a better outcome would be achieved if the same management policy as exists for alcohol were applied instead. After all, this is the only practical alternative likely to be acceptable.