Mun - It

[Savage]

I could swear my friends refer to each other as mun however thought this was insulting, or is this just language book stuff? is it ok between friends?

[mike_l]

Yeah it's ok between some groups of close friends, and is in fact pretty common. In my experience, if they people 'goo' (I,me) and 'meung' (you) when talking to each other then they'll use 'mun' for 'he/she' when talking about that person as a third party.

Just like 'goo' and 'meung' though it is insulting if used inappriopriately, so it's probably not a word you'd want to use yourself unless you're certain it'd be ok and not misunderstood.

Edited June 22, 2005 by mike_l

[meadish_sweetball]

Yes, it's ok among friends and family, but you need to really know what you're doing before you emulate this - you should never initiate it yourself...

My two satang.

[katana]

In the book Private Dancer, the author overhears his girlfriend talking to her sister about him when she leaves a message on his answerphone. Listening to the recorded message, he hears her say:

MAN MAI YOO มันไม่อยู่ - He's not in.

and he believes this is a bad insult.

However, one Thai I talked to says it's neutral in this context and not necessarily insulting, but I'm not absolutely sure about this...

[gburns57au]

In the book Private Dancer, the author overhears his girlfriend talking to her sister about him when she leaves a message on his answerphone. Listening to the recorded message, he hears her say:

MAN MAI YOO มันไม่อยู่ - He's not in.

and he believes this is a bad insult.

However, one Thai I talked to says it's neutral in this context and not necessarily insulting, but I'm not absolutely sure about this...

By a strange quirk of language the Thai word man has a couple of meanings....but it is also pronounced similar to the farang word "man".....the Thais love to use a mix of Thai and English especially when it has a humourous (to them) connatation.....the tone and situation will set the true meaning....The Thais know we use terms such as "hey Man"...or "Man that was good" etc...They emulate this knowing full well that we will translate as the Thai word......

gotta love the humour

[bannork]

the pronunciation isn't the same really, the Thai it, he or she' is more like 'mun' มัน as in sun, rather than the English word man, pronounced long, in Thai reading as

มาน

[cholakarn]

"Mun" is not insulting at all if used among close friends and siblings. It's more like a way to express intimacy. However, if you refer to someone you do not know that well as "mun", then it's an insult.

[Neeranam]

Just about all Thais use "mun" when talking about farang when we are not listening, or they think we aren't. Don't believe the ones who say they don't

[RamdomChances]

I know what "mun" means, I know when and where it can be used but to be honest I very rarley hear it being used even with groups of close friends (usually only with teens)and never use it myself. "Goo" is uses a fair bit around here might just be a regional thing mai roo

I've never heard myself refered to by thais as "mun" outside bars where they dont relise that I can speak thai.... I'm not saying that that dont do it , I dont know, just I've never heard it

[greenwanderer108]

มัน (as in mun) isn't an insult at all when used in the third person pronoun sense. It's a real loose way to talk when you aren't having to maintain any social status / roles. In that sense, if a Thai is saying it and wants the party to hear (he/she), they aren't likely trying to offend anyone, just lacking motivation to agknowledge the initial relationship respect directly like when using พี่ Pee or น้อง Nong---either that, or they are using it in an intimate lazy expression. In informal gossip, it's probably the most used third person pronoun.

No Thai will ever lose face over this word. Sure you can offend someone by saying it but that would usually be from your gestures and obvious intent in using the word for them to hear. Though, the word มัน wouldn't be the straw that broke the camel's back. There are few single words that can make a Thai lose face. You all know them I'm sure so I need not say.

Regarding third person pronouns, the word more likely to offend is maeng แม่ง as in the combination of แม่ and มึง (yo mamma) which generally is a very ugly way to say he/she/it. But among friends---usually the guys, bros, etc. it's a sommon slang word said every other three words spoken period---in these contexts, it's usually only second to the word which translates to 'lizard moniter'

[meadish_sweetball]

the pronunciation isn't the same really, the Thai it, he or she' is more like 'mun' มัน as in sun, rather than the English word man, pronounced long, in Thai reading as

มาน

...or แมน, depending on the type of English accent, and how much influence it has on the speaker's Thai.

Do you recall the TV commercial where a farang asks some kids for directions, tries to say สพาน and it comes out as สแ่พน ? You often hear ฝรั่ง pronounced as ฝแรง too.

[gburns57au]

the pronunciation isn't the same really, the Thai it, he or she' is more like 'mun' มัน as in sun, rather than the English word man, pronounced long, in Thai reading as

มาน

it would be close enough to someone who is not as familiar with spoken Thai as some people here are.....your second example would sound more like Marn....not man...

mmmm....are you West Indian by chance.....

[siamesekitty]

มัน (pronounced "mun" as in "sun") is insulting if used to refer to someone you do not know very well or who you do not respect. It is okay if you are talking with your buddies about another close friend, or at least someone who is of the same age or younger than you.

(If you are not extremely fluent in Thai yet then don't try using it yet. It will sound weird and people will wonder why you are trying to use rude language.)

[greenwanderer108]

มัน (pronounced "mun" as in "sun") is insulting if used to refer to someone you do not know very well or who you do not respect. It is okay if you are talking with your buddies about another close friend, or at least someone who is of the same age or younger than you.

(If you are not extremely fluent in Thai yet then don't try using it yet. It will sound weird and people will wonder why you are trying to use rude language.) 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Siamese Kitty---มันคือใครวะ กวนตีนวะ

in any case, if you feel you have made a mistake in insulting someone and that is not your intent, as long as you are familiar that Thai has the concept of กวนตีน then the Thai does not have the card to lose face...

BTW, you might want to add เฉยๆ as in กวนตีนเฉยๆ because there should be no argument that Thai's love to กวนตีน!!!

[siamesekitty]

Siamese Kitty---มันคือใครวะ กวนตีนวะ

in any case, if you feel you have made a mistake in insulting someone and that is not your intent, as long as you are familiar that Thai has the concept of กวนตีน then the Thai does not have the card to lose face...

BTW, you might want to add เฉยๆ as in กวนตีนเฉยๆ because there should be no argument that Thai's love to กวนตีน!!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

กวนตีนอย่างไรวะ

and what does "does not have the card to lose face" mean?

Just งงๆ about your comments ka.

[boris]

In the book Private Dancer, the author overhears his girlfriend talking to her sister about him when she leaves a message on his answerphone. Listening to the recorded message, he hears her say:

MAN MAI YOO มันไม่อยู่ - He's not in.

and he believes this is a bad insult.

However, one Thai I talked to says it's neutral in this context and not necessarily insulting, but I'm not absolutely sure about this...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Your Thai friend is absolutely right as might be expected.I haven't read Private Dancer.A quick glance in Asia Books at a copy made it clear it was ill written slovenly thought out rubbish.I did however read some years ago an article by Stephen Leather in GQ (I think) about his infatuation with some two timing pug faced Isaan hooker -yawn,yawn- in which he repeated this anecdote.

I remember being amused at the time at this fairly basic howler since it was relayed with the smug knowingness often found in farangs who can string a few Thai words together and think they "get" Thailand (or the bar scene which is the same thing to most of them.)

I mention this because there are still a few dummies around who hold Stephen Leather as some kind of Thai culture oracle.He's just a pulp fiction hack, albeit more successful than most of the other farangs currently writing about Thailand.Has anyone ever considered how dreadful Christopher Moore is for example, and he is actually one of the better ones!! Best is John Burdett, I think.

[siamesekitty]

In the book Private Dancer, the author overhears his girlfriend talking to her sister about him when she leaves a message on his answerphone. Listening to the recorded message, he hears her say:

MAN MAI YOO มันไม่อยู่ - He's not in.

and he believes this is a bad insult.

However, one Thai I talked to says it's neutral in this context and not necessarily insulting, but I'm not absolutely sure about this...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This Thai thinks it's insulting. It shows his girlfriend is not showing respect for him. You do not refer to your bf/gf to someone else as มัน unless

1. you are pissed off at them at the time

2. you, your gf/bf, and your friend are all very close friends

3. you think he/she is stupid or inferior

Edited June 23, 2005 by siamesekitty

[bannork]

มัน (pronounced "mun" as in "sun") is insulting if used to refer to someone you do not know very well or who you do not respect. It is okay if you are talking with your buddies about another close friend, or at least someone who is of the same age or younger than you.

(If you are not extremely fluent in Thai yet then don't try using it yet. It will sound weird and people will wonder why you are trying to use rude language.)  

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Siamese Kitty---มันคือใครวะ กวนตีนวะ

in any case, if you feel you have made a mistake in insulting someone and that is not your intent, as long as you are familiar that Thai has the concept of กวนตีน then the Thai does not have the card to lose face...

BTW, you might want to add เฉยๆ as in กวนตีนเฉยๆ because there should be no argument that Thai's love to กวนตีน!!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I thought กวนตีน was similar to the English- to piss off someone, which is insulting, but this "card to lose face' throws me, greenwanderer, could you write that in Thai?

[greenwanderer108]

Siamese Kitty---มันคือใครวะ กวนตีนวะ

in any case, if you feel you have made a mistake in insulting someone and that is not your intent, as long as you are familiar that Thai has the concept of กวนตีน then the Thai does not have the card to lose face...

BTW, you might want to add เฉยๆ as in กวนตีนเฉยๆ because there should be no argument that Thai's love to กวนตีน!!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

กวนตีนอย่างไรวะ

and what does "does not have the card to lose face" mean?

Just งงๆ about your comments ka.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What I mean there อีkitty is that

if I was farang and referred to you as มัน and played my knowledgeable card that I am only กวนตีน

typically, the card would be in your reaction whether or not you want to เสียหน้า lose face, but cause you could see that I have knowledge of กวนตีน---you would know that I knew the concept of กวนตีน and it's relevence to Thai subcultures...and chances are you wouldn't lose face. As a Thais dilgent attempts to keep face, your better card would be to play another more clever card to play back at me.

[bannork]

the pronunciation isn't the same really, the Thai it, he or she' is more like 'mun' มัน as in sun, rather than the English word man, pronounced long, in Thai reading as

มาน

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

it would be close enough to someone who is not as familiar with spoken Thai as some people here are.....your second example would sound more like Marn....not man...

mmmm....are you West Indian by chance.....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Compare the word human to the word man, in the first instance I would say the man in human is like มัน whilst in man as a single syllable it's more like มาน, but I take the point it depends on one's accent in English. I lived in Nigeria for 4 years as a child and I lived in St Pauls,Bristol, England for 5 years in the mid-seventies; but I never developed a West Indian accent due to being a middle class white boy who loved Pink Floyd, Rory Gallagher, Hendrix, Man,( they were a great group from Wales, the drummer,Terry Williams, joined Dire Straits).

[bannork]

Siamese Kitty---มันคือใครวะ กวนตีนวะ

in any case, if you feel you have made a mistake in insulting someone and that is not your intent, as long as you are familiar that Thai has the concept of กวนตีน then the Thai does not have the card to lose face...

BTW, you might want to add เฉยๆ as in กวนตีนเฉยๆ because there should be no argument that Thai's love to กวนตีน!!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

กวนตีนอย่างไรวะ

and what does "does not have the card to lose face" mean?

Just งงๆ about your comments ka.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What I mean there อีkitty is that

if I was farang and referred to you as มัน and played my knowledgeable card that I am only กวนตีน

typically, the card would be in your reaction whether or not you want to เสียหน้า lose face, but cause you could see that I have knowledge of กวนตีน---you would know that I knew the concept of กวนตีน and it's relevence to Thai subcultures...and chances are you wouldn't lose face. As a Thais dilgent attempts to keep face, your better card would be to play another more clever card to play back at me.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

now it's อี kitty,greenwanderer, เจ้ามาเเด่ไส

[greenwanderer108]

มัน (pronounced "mun" as in "sun") is insulting if used to refer to someone you do not know very well or who you do not respect. It is okay if you are talking with your buddies about another close friend, or at least someone who is of the same age or younger than you.

(If you are not extremely fluent in Thai yet then don't try using it yet. It will sound weird and people will wonder why you are trying to use rude language.)  

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Siamese Kitty---มันคือใครวะ กวนตีนวะ

in any case, if you feel you have made a mistake in insulting someone and that is not your intent, as long as you are familiar that Thai has the concept of กวนตีน then the Thai does not have the card to lose face...

BTW, you might want to add เฉยๆ as in กวนตีนเฉยๆ because there should be no argument that Thai's love to กวนตีน!!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I thought กวนตีน was similar to the English- to piss off someone, which is insulting, but this "card to lose face' throws me, greenwanderer, could you write that in Thai?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

In Thai as you wish:

ถ้าเกิดว่าผมพูดอะไรกวนตีนใส่คุณ แล้วผมเป็นฝรังด้วยและพูดว่า กวนตีน คุณก็ต้องตอบโต้ (react) แล้วแต่คุณจะเสียหน้าหรือไม่ แต่ที่คุณซึ่งเป็นคนไทยแล้วเห็นเราซึ่งเป็นฝรังเข้าใจคำว่ากวนตีน และควรจะใช่คำนี่ยังไง คุณก็ไม่น่าจะเสียหน้าหรอก

make any more sense? Playing cards is more of a metaphor for action/reaction. How you play your cards/react. As in Poker/pool/whatever, there are certain expected reactions...same as in social pschology, there are certain ways you can expect anyone to react in any given situation.

[siamesekitty]

Siamese Kitty---มันคือใครวะ กวนตีนวะ

in any case, if you feel you have made a mistake in insulting someone and that is not your intent, as long as you are familiar that Thai has the concept of กวนตีน then the Thai does not have the card to lose face...

BTW, you might want to add เฉยๆ as in กวนตีนเฉยๆ because there should be no argument that Thai's love to กวนตีน!!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

กวนตีนอย่างไรวะ

and what does "does not have the card to lose face" mean?

Just งงๆ about your comments ka.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What I mean there อีkitty is that

if I was farang and referred to you as มัน and played my knowledgeable card that I am only กวนตีน

typically, the card would be in your reaction whether or not you want to เสียหน้า lose face, but cause you could see that I have knowledge of กวนตีน---you would know that I knew the concept of กวนตีน and it's relevence to Thai subcultures...and chances are you wouldn't lose face. As a Thais dilgent attempts to keep face, your better card would be to play another more clever card to play back at me.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

greenwanderer, you might want to reassess how "knowledgeable" you really are, before you get into any trouble with this astonishingly deep insight of yours.

Would also like to add that the circumstances that you could use มัน that I mentioned earlier also apply to the use of "อี", "ไอ้", "กู", "มึง" and other not very polite words.

And no claims of simply being กวนตีน would help, 'cuz no Thai is gonna buy that.

(By the way กวนตีน can mean either a)playfully joking/insulting a buddy, or b)looking for trouble. Just a thought.)

[BambinA]

Siamese Kitty---มันคือใครวะ กวนตีนวะ

in any case, if you feel you have made a mistake in insulting someone and that is not your intent, as long as you are familiar that Thai has the concept of กวนตีน then the Thai does not have the card to lose face...

BTW, you might want to add เฉยๆ as in กวนตีนเฉยๆ because there should be no argument that Thai's love to กวนตีน!!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

กวนตีนอย่างไรวะ

and what does "does not have the card to lose face" mean?

Just งงๆ about your comments ka.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

hahahahahahha ....nice comment...but not so good to rude with a lady as khun kitty

by the way, what is กวนตีน in eng word? ...is it"annoy"?

well we re thai , we love to กวนตีน..so what?

Bambi a กวนตีน girl

[BambinA]

มัน

(If you are not extremely fluent in Thai yet then don't try using it yet. It will sound weird and people will wonder why you are trying to use rude language.)  

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

In Thai as you wish:

ถ้าเกิดว่าผมพูดอะไรกวนตีนใส่คุณ แล้วผมเป็นฝรังด้วยและพูดว่า กวนตีน คุณก็ต้องตอบโต้ (react) แล้วแต่คุณจะเสียหน้าหรือไม่ แต่ที่คุณซึ่งเป็นคนไทยแล้วเห็นเราซึ่งเป็นฝรังเข้าใจคำว่ากวนตีน และควรจะใช่คำนี่ยังไง คุณก็ไม่น่าจะเสียหน้าหรอก

make any more sense? Playing cards is more of a metaphor for action/reaction. How you play your cards/react. As in Poker/pool/whatever, there are certain expected reactions...same as in social pschology, there are certain ways you can expect anyone to react in any given situation.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

obviously , gentleman dont speak rude with lady nor call her กวนตีน although she กวนตีน or not (sound like its not fair..but its the way you'd do)

make sense? , a POLITE farang

bambi..

yes ,Im กวนตีนing you

[katana]

In the book Private Dancer, the author overhears his girlfriend talking to her sister about him when she leaves a message on his answerphone. Listening to the recorded message, he hears her say:

MAN MAI YOO มันไม่อยู่ - He's not in.

and he believes this is a bad insult.

However, one Thai I talked to says it's neutral in this context and not necessarily insulting, but I'm not absolutely sure about this...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This Thai thinks it's insulting. It shows his girlfriend is not showing respect for him. You do not refer to your bf/gf to someone else as มัน unless

1. you are pissed off at them at the time

2. you, your gf/bf, and your friend are all very close friends

3. you think he/she is stupid or inferior

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

In the above example from the Private Dancer book, they were all close friends, so would 2. apply here and it not be insulting?

[meadish_sweetball]

Seems like there is no absolute yardstick for this but depends on a number of things such as social class, intimacy, intent and context - I often hear my gf on the phone refer in the third person with 'มัน' to her other friends, close cousins and siblings, clearly without the intention of disrespect - because she is not badmouthing them in any other way, just speaking in a matter of fact way - but yes, in this context she may also use less polite particles such as 'วะ' and laugh more than usual - my take is this is because she is on the phone with a friend, someone she trusts and can feel relaxed with - she doesnt intend to speak badly about the people she refers to, she just wants to show the person she is talking to, that she is relaxed enough to not put up a social mask.

She would never use 'goo' and 'meung' addressing anyone though, as far as I have known her.

[greenwanderer108]

อีกวนตีนแปมบีกะไอกิตีน

you seem to be missing the point. I initially said that Thais won't lose face over such a situation because as Bambi said, Thais love to กวนตีน. First, know that there is a difference between losing face and getting insulted.

Losing face is usually what people are trying to avoid. People are insulted everyday intentionally/unintentionally no matter where you go. It's all a part of cross cultural communications---inevitable.

For example, I'm insulted when I go into a 7-11 or family mart and am waiting at the counter, and the clerk doesn't look up or speak cause I look farang, and serves other Thai customers, or even worse, the other customers just casually cut ahead of me in line like nothing...but I make a point to keep composed, cause blowing my lid will have no benefit.

So the point is not to avoid taking an action that has potential to offend someone,

but more to be prepared with a reaction that will save face.

I really don't agree with the common advice from people who say something along the lines as "If you aren't perfect in Thai or super fluent, don't make any attempts to say something that might have an undesired/wrong effect."

This is not good advice on a general plane in my oppinion and can be discouraging. Who's to say someone is/is not fluent enough to try to speak.

For many of us, the best part of learning is the process of making mistakes, falling, and yes, even being insulted/insulting others unintentionally..

Usually, in the learning stage, most Thais will never get offended if you say something bad/unpolite unnaturally if they can sense your ignorance/ lack of knowledge...or like I said, if they figure out you are just กวนตีน

In fact, they'll probably laugh and correct you/inform you on the spot. Exerimental learning. On that note, there are times, places, and people for experimental learning...meaning you probably don't want to see what effect using มัน or กวนตีน have on the first meeting of your gf/bf parents

BTW, Kitty, I never claimed to know everything about Thailand/Thai people---just giving my observations from my 22 years of exposure to Thai people/ways/customs. Sure I'm American by birth and grew up there until I was 18, but being half Thai (which could likely be more than you assuming you were standard 2nd or 3rd generation Chinese migrated) does give me a fair amount of insight...Surely I'm not God and still have lots to learn about this country and it's people, but you or anybody who won't admit this is a fool... [unneccessary comment deleted. Please stick to relevant facts in the discussion, and steer clear of sensitive subjects. /meadish]

Edited June 24, 2005 by meadish_sweetball

[siamesekitty]

You also seem to be missing my point here. I hope the others here get it.

But first of all I would like to apologize for my comments and the sarcastic nature with which they were written. It was caused by my being being offended by your referring to me as มัน and อี .. which kinda proves my point actually: If there is a risk that it might offend, then don't use it.

However, if you do happen to use it and it offends a Thai, then he/she might be willing to forgive you on the basis that you do not know any better - but not if you instead show your "knowledge" and say you you are "just being กวนตีน". In my opinion, that is equivalent to the กวนตีน in definition b ) in my earlier post.

In fact, your replies to this thread and my reaction to it is an example of what could happen in real life with a Thai. You call somebody มัน or อี and they are offended. You could try to explain it's because you're just being กวนตีน, and have a sense of humor. But they're not very amused. This is what I was trying to warn our fellow TV members against.

I am not discouraging foreigners from trying to learn how to speak Thai fluently and as naturally as a native. I just feel that if one hasn't fully mastered the language yet then why spend your efforts on trying to sound crude?

Anyway, 'nuff said. I've stated my opinion and wouldn't want to litter this thread any further. I will also not comment on the amount of Thai blood I have running through my veins as I believe it is irrelevant to this discussion.

Goodnight and hopefully no hard feelings.

[BambinA]

อีกวนตีนแปมบีกะไอกิตีน  

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

thanks alot an arrogant farang

obviously u spell my name wrong

wooohoooooo ..... im really sorry im กวนตีน-ing again

Bambi

PS1 u do it welldone with thai lang,. i admire u..who teach you then...?

PS2...could u be nice with ladies please..

THANKS ka

Edited June 24, 2005 by BambinA