Corruption Getting Worse: PM Abhisit

[xminator]

In the name of transparency, all coalition MP's should post ALL their economic transactions since 2007.

[slapout]

Well both the doctor and the patient have to admit there is a malignancy before treatment can begin. Sometimes you have to get the attention of the patient, prior to them accepting treatment. Threats, begging, compromise, etc have not appeared to accomplish what the PM would like to see. Maybe it time to scare the B jesus out of them or slap someone cross eyed. to get things moving

[Mosha]

A Big Fish must fall and make waves to scare the other Fish back into line. Until then nothing will change.

Agree. That is why the white people catch Khun Nelson to scare the black people.

Although he done no wrong.

You obviously are too young to remember Khun Nelson before the white men caught him.

[ianf]

Credit to PM-Abhisit for daring to raise the problem, this can't make him popular with other politicians, but it needs to be done.

I think that's the point. In order to confront his own colleagues, he has to throw the issue into the public arena. This is maybe what is happening here. When your own colleagues are clearly implicated it takes a person of courage to expose the issue. Khun Abhisit is a courageous man in my view as he tries to show the Thais, yellows and red, a better way forward. At some point those who want self before democracy will say 'enough is enough' and get rid of him. Or with a bit of luck enough good people will see what he is doing and side with him. That's why I don't like to see these unqualified attacks on him from cynics and people who should know better. I think he should be supported in what appears to be his own political project.

[MikeyIdea]

Some posters are ignoring or haven’t understood that the PM is not talking about the last year but about a trend over the last 18 years… Perhaps that speaks more about the posters themselves than about the content of the article discussed or its author

Many westerners make the mistake to think that “All prime ministers are corrupt so it doesn’t matter”, “it doesn’t matter which party, there is and has been corruption under all of them so they are all the same”. Nothing could be further from the truth.

It is of course true that there is corruption under all parties and prime ministers, it will be at least a generation before corruption goes down to "European levels", the point is that it really matters if a party or a prime minister in power tries to reinforce the corruption system, or go with it, or perhaps even tries to tackle it. It really does matter for the country economically.

Corruption increased under Banharn and Chawalit, it went down under Chuan Leek Pai (but he wasn’t very good at stimulating the economy), it went up sharply under Thaksin (pretty good at stimulating the economy though). Overall, corruption going down is good for a country, corruption going up is very bad for a country

What does the prime minister try to achieve with the article, what’s his message?

[junglist]

A Big Fish must fall and make waves to scare the other Fish back into line. Until then nothing will change.

Agree. That is why the white people catch Khun Nelson to scare the black people.

Although he done no wrong.

You obviously are too young to remember Khun Nelson before the white men caught him.

No I am sorry I do not know the story of Nelson. Please inform me. Also I would never call myself a white man.

[Rucharee]

A Big Fish must fall and make waves to scare the other Fish back into line. Until then nothing will change.

Agree. That is why the white people catch Khun Nelson to scare the black people.

Although he done no wrong.

You obviously are too young to remember Khun Nelson before the white men caught him.

No I am sorry I do not know the story of Nelson. Please inform me. Also I would never call myself a white man.

Nelson Rolihlahla Mandela, born 18 July 1918, served as President of South Africa from 1994 to 1999, and was the first South African president to be elected in a fully representative democratic election. Before his presidency, Mandela was an anti-apartheid activist, and the leader of Umkhonto we Sizwe, the armed wing of the African National Congress (ANC). In 1962 he was arrested and convicted of sabotage and other charges, and sentenced to life in prison. Mandela served 27 years in prison, spending many of these years on Robben Island.

Nelson Mandela - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Edited June 17, 2010 by Rucharee

[junglist]

I know of Mr. Mandela but would never refer to him as Nelson. A man of this stature deserves a little more respect. Thank you for the info.

[Rucharee]

I know of Mr. Mandela but would never refer to him as Nelson. A man of this stature deserves a little more respect. Thank you for the info.

This is Thailand. This is ThaiVisa.

In Thailand, we address people by the First Name after the word Khun.

Just like Khun Mark, Khun Sondhi, Khun Thaksin, etc.

[landofthefree]

Corruption is a natural outgrowth of a lack of accountability. Abhisit, as the proxy for the current government, is doing everything to eliminate his opposition. His "reconciliation plan" is nothing more than a chance for his cronies to capitalize on the financial benefits of being politicians in Thailand.

You should try reading up on Abhisit's history, from the BBC no less.

BBC News - Profile: Abhisit Vejjajiva

The Democratic Party failed to win power at national elections, but in December 2008 the Constitutional Court found the ruling party, led by allies of former Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra, guilty of electoral fraud and banned it.

Amid the turmoil of the airport blockade caused by anti-Thaksin protesters, a few Thaksin loyalists changed sides.

This enabled Mr Abhisit to form a new government and become the next prime minister without calling elections.

...

Among the chinks in the Abhisit armour are his failure, so far, to win the popular vote and the impression that his good looks tend to outshine his sometimes rather bland political pronouncements.

In March 2010, he was spirited away to a barracks when red-shirted opposition protesters marched on Bangkok for days of mass rallies, denouncing him as an illegitimate leader.

The prime minister may find that only the popular mandate of a national election win will ultimately silence his critics.

the profile has a few other funny details like:

When Mr Thaksin called a snap election in February 2006, Mr Abhisit's campaign pitch was that he was "prepared to become a prime minister who adheres to the principle of good governance and ethics, not authoritarianism".

that is indeed true, in 2006 the PAD protests, the demands that Thaksin has to go 'ork bai' ork bai'. Thaksin said he cannot let the mob make the decicions here, but has to accept and respect the public's decision, the electorate is in that position, he dissolved the house and called for a snap election. First Abhisit said he is ready to become the new PM. But what Abhisit said yesterday can become void overnight. So after someone explain to him that he will probably not win the snap election he decided to boycott and avoided the snap-election. As general rule, what Abhisit said in the past has the value of zero in the present or future.

And there are also the tiny details that comes through the BBC somewhat misleading:

Going beyond the current transparency rules for Thai MPs, he said he would require all future Democrat Party representatives to declare their assets and any involvement in private companies. Currently, those measures apply only to cabinet members.

Sounds good, but does it meet reality? One name immediately comes to my mind Deputy prime minister Suthep. Unconstitutional shareholdings were the reason that he had to resign from his MP seat, though he insisted he would remain a cabinet minister.

No matter what you say, Mark & PAD is good. Thaksin & UDD is evil.

Who is this Mark guy? I thought on Thai visa only proper names were to be used. I can't find any politician in Thailand called Mark, if its another name for Mr Thaksin then perhaps you should use that name instead.

[Rucharee]

No matter what you say, Mark & PAD is good. Thaksin & UDD is evil.

Who is this Mark guy? I thought on Thai visa only proper names were to be used. I can't find any politician in Thailand called Mark, if its another name for Mr Thaksin then perhaps you should use that name instead.

If this is true. Seh Deang should not be used as well. Seh Deang is a nick name just like Mark.

[Motoon]

It does little good to highlight the persistant and growing grip corruption holds on Thai society without also offering his governments policies on how to stall and roll back that corruption. I think Abhisit probably has policies and laws and restructuring he'd like to enact for that very purpose but he sometimes seems a bit inept politically with his timing and delivery. Highlighting the problem and offering the solution should go hand in hand.

Fully agree, otherwise it is just lip service..

[Motoon]

Agree. That is why the white people catch Khun Nelson to scare the black people.

Although he done no wrong.

Nelson Rolihlahla Mandela, born 18 July 1918, served as President of South Africa from 1994 to 1999, and was the first South African president to be elected in a fully representative democratic election. Before his presidency, Mandela was an anti-apartheid activist, and the leader of Umkhonto we Sizwe, the armed wing of the African National Congress (ANC). In 1962 he was arrested and convicted of sabotage and other charges, and sentenced to life in prison. Mandela served 27 years in prison, spending many of these years on Robben Island.

Nelson Mandela - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

No matter what you google... I still don't see the connection between the Apartheid struggle and the corruption culture in Thailand. Therefore your remark seems misplaced. You're a rather odd one...

[slapout]

Some posters are ignoring or haven’t understood that the PM is not talking about the last year but about a trend over the last 18 years… Perhaps that speaks more about the posters themselves than about the content of the article discussed or its author

Many westerners make the mistake to think that “All prime ministers are corrupt so it doesn’t matter”, “it doesn’t matter which party, there is and has been corruption under all of them so they are all the same”. Nothing could be further from the truth.

It is of course true that there is corruption under all parties and prime ministers, it will be at least a generation before corruption goes down to "European levels", the point is that it really matters if a party or a prime minister in power tries to reinforce the corruption system, or go with it, or perhaps even tries to tackle it. It really does matter for the country economically.

Corruption increased under Banharn and Chawalit, it went down under Chuan Leek Pai (but he wasn’t very good at stimulating the economy), it went up sharply under Thaksin (pretty good at stimulating the economy though). Overall, corruption going down is good for a country, corruption going up is very bad for a country

What does the prime minister try to achieve with the article, what’s his message?

Not being privy to the PM's thoughts I can only congratulate him for keeping this problem front and center.I doubt if most of us can even begin to imagine the amount of money siphoned out of the Thai system via corruption. One gauge I use, is to try to keep track of reported expenditures. purchases, investment, frozen monies outside of Thailand by a former PM. When this is compared to a factual??? declaration of assets made by the same individual, the several billion difference (not baht) could represent a very small share of the total take thru various means from the majority of the Thai population. If/ when this type of info as well as ongoing accounting of the small and mega projects which are government funded are presented to the public in language they can understand inroads can be made to solve several issues confronting Thailand.

[Hyponeros]

Corruption getting worse : PM

This is not possible.

Under the watch of Mark, there is ZERO corruption caught.

You are so silly! Thank you to put some humor in such a serious topic!

[LomSak27]

Mikeyldea posted

Corruption increased under Banharn and Chawalit, it went down under Chuan Leek Pai (but he wasn’t very good at stimulating the economy), it went up sharply under Thaksin (pretty good at stimulating the economy though). Overall, corruption going down is good for a country, corruption going up is very bad for a country

Interesting because one of the most daming assesments of the anti Thaksin sound machine was statistics put out by Transparency int. that showed under Thaksin, corruption as an overall index went down in Thailand. Shock ... Gasp ...Horror ... There was a couple other NGO's on corruption that had similar results. Bluntly when I read claptrap about Thaksin and how corrupt he has been I assume the poster has not lived in Thailand under any other goverment than that of the Thaks, and makes that fatally flawed assumption that it has to have been better than this, and or when he is kicked out it will get better. Of course I must now make the obligatory comment that I am not a red supporter or a Thaks man - That said I quit supporting and have NO HOPE for the Democratic goverment under Abhisit when The Nation, the unofficial official mouthpiece of the Dems and PAD, stated that "it was not about corruption, it was about Thaksin" in an editorial aimed at the EXPATS who joined on because they thought (or been led to believe!) it was about cutting corruption in Thailand

As you might have guessed I was one of those people who they duped and indeed I feel very foolish for ever believeing anything PAD and the DEMs said

[lannarebirth]

It does little good to highlight the persistant and growing grip corruption holds on Thai society without also offering his governments policies on how to stall and roll back that corruption. I think Abhisit probably has policies and laws and restructuring he'd like to enact for that very purpose but he sometimes seems a bit inept politically with his timing and delivery. Highlighting the problem and offering the solution should go hand in hand.

Fully agree, otherwise it is just lip service..

I DO hope he was just starting a dialogue and not giving lip-service. I like him and see him as Thailand's best hope. I well recall Thaksin's "corruption is normal" radio address which made me shudder.

[cmsally]

Corruption is a natural outgrowth of a lack of accountability. Abhisit, as the proxy for the current government, is doing everything to eliminate his opposition. His "reconciliation plan" is nothing more than a chance for his cronies to capitalize on the financial benefits of being politicians in Thailand.

You should try reading up on Abhisit's history, from the BBC no less.

Ah so the BBC is invoked when it serves your point of view, and trashed when it doesn't.

And when have I "trashed" the BBC?

But now you've made the insinuation, it should be noted that even a media outlet arguably heavily slanted towards the plight of the red shirts during the recent turmoil even states that Abhisit has a reputation for clean politics.

Actually if you read into that article the core point is that he is not an elected leader. Note that 'clean politics'

is in quotation marks. Either lifting the notion from his Thai reputation of 'clean' or leaving us to make up our own

minds whether clean or not.

Basically the author of this article is repeating his reputation as he and his party likes to project it, then stating not much has done been done constructively and then throwing in his life history.

If you read about his position in this article, it is quoted from Abhisit or his election campaign ; it is not the writers point of view.

It is more of a factual article, there is not much in the way of opinion. It is not slanted towards Abhisit, if anything it is slightly against him. Talk the talk but maybe not walk the walk.

[landofthefree]

No matter what you say, Mark & PAD is good. Thaksin & UDD is evil.

Who is this Mark guy? I thought on Thai visa only proper names were to be used. I can't find any politician in Thailand called Mark, if its another name for Mr Thaksin then perhaps you should use that name instead.

If this is true. Seh Deang should not be used as well. Seh Deang is a nick name just like Mark.

OK I get it now it Mark is Seh Daeng's nickname thanks I thought they were talking about Mark Thaksin. Its all clear now cheers.

[Thai at Heart]

I know of Mr. Mandela but would never refer to him as Nelson. A man of this stature deserves a little more respect. Thank you for the info.

This is Thailand. This is ThaiVisa.

In Thailand, we address people by the First Name after the word Khun.

Just like Khun Mark, Khun Sondhi, Khun Thaksin, etc.

And there I was wondering what Mr.Piquet and formula 1 had to do with Thai Corruption. Thankyou very much for the culture lesson. What next? Are you going to regail us with an explanation about nicknames next?

This is cyberspace and you aren't "addressing" anyone, and out of minimal respect I would imagine "Mr. Mandela" would be more appropriate and of far clearer meaning.

Edited June 17, 2010 by Thai at Heart

[landofthefree]

I know of Mr. Mandela but would never refer to him as Nelson. A man of this stature deserves a little more respect. Thank you for the info.

This is Thailand. This is ThaiVisa.

In Thailand, we address people by the First Name after the word Khun.

Just like Khun Mark, Khun Sondhi, Khun Thaksin, etc.

And there I was wondering what Mr.Piquet and formula 1 had to do with Thai Corruption. Thankyou very much for the culture lesson. What next? Are you going to regail us with an explanation about nicknames next?

This is cyberspace and you aren't "addressing" anyone, and out of minimal respect I would imagine "Mr. Mandela" would be more appropriate and of far clearer meaning.

wasn't mandella a terrorist?

[landofthefree]

I know of Mr. Mandela but would never refer to him as Nelson. A man of this stature deserves a little more respect. Thank you for the info.

This is Thailand. This is ThaiVisa.

In Thailand, we address people by the First Name after the word Khun.

Just like Khun Mark, Khun Sondhi, Khun Thaksin, etc.

And there I was wondering what Mr.Piquet and formula 1 had to do with Thai Corruption. Thankyou very much for the culture lesson. What next? Are you going to regail us with an explanation about nicknames next?

This is cyberspace and you aren't "addressing" anyone, and out of minimal respect I would imagine "Mr. Mandela" would be more appropriate and of far clearer meaning.

wasn't mandella a terrorist?

a bit like the red shirt leaders, after all thats what they have all gone to jail for...........

[Thai at Heart]

wasn't mandella a terrorist?

Lets not start that discussion. It could cut a bit close to the bone in the current Thai context.

[moe666]

A Big Fish must fall and make waves to scare the other Fish back into line. Until then nothing will change.

Agree. That is why the white people catch Khun Nelson to scare the black people.

Although he done no wrong.

Suprised you haven't blamed Thai corruption on Falangs since we cause all of Thailands problems.

[bangon04]

As a long time Thailand resident it is not surprising we have continual discussions on corruption at many levels, whether it comes from politicians, the police, or even the military. The number of extremely wealth individuals in all of these three sectors of society is startling. There is graft, extortion, protectionism, favortism at many levels and we see it daily, I understand why the rural poor and the lower middle class get so upset and are so concerned, they feel they are not getting their fair share. I have been married to a Thai citizen for a number of years, we have 4 children, one studies in the US and 3 study here, my 14 y/o told me the other week that he wanted to join the Military and make it a career. When asked why he proudly stated that he can work his way up and become rich. I offered him a suggestion that he join the military to help his country and protect the citizens of Thailand, this should be the motivation and not to 'get rich'. He went on to say that if you are in the military long enough everyone knows you have money and he wanted to have that too. I will council more on this topic later as he grows up, but needless to say I was rather surprised to hear such a statement from my son. How is is possible that high ranking officers are perceived or are actually wealthy when the Thai military salary is so low? (retorical question, I can guess the answer )

Corruption must be tacked at many levels and needs to be part of the educational fabric that we bring our children up here in Thailand, they need to learn, it may be actually too late for those in politics today to change but with education and persistance I'm hopeful that the future will be less corrupt. If Mr Abhisit can work on better education, better quality of education and more consistent training then the future will be brighter for so many of Thailands citizens.

Cheers.

C

Abhisit was educated in the West. He surely understands the benefits of a good education, and he has seen the benefits of suppressing corruption. (never possible to eliminate it in any country, even with a free press)

However he must work within the system, because if he stretches his head out too far too fast it will be hacked off..

. He may not have the answers yet, but maybe we should give him the benefit of the doubt for a while at least.

You have tried to educate your son with your values, but he is still demonstrating his Thai thinking, despite your efforts. Multiply this by the influences on ordinary Thais who have only the information they get from moronic Thai education, and it is easy to appreciate the uphill battle facing anyone like Abhisit.

[eggomaniac]

My hopes are up to my shoulders that PM Abhisit is a good man and up to my knees that he could be a great man. He talked about creating measures for ALL Thais, not just the minority red and yellow activists. He is talking about doing Polls, let's see if they educate the masses instead of the Nabobs. NOW he is pinpointing the #1 cause of the Kingdom's problems. Is this man a dolphin in a shark tank, or what? [One of my Thai correspondents told me Khun Chuan Leekpai was his mentor?] Class divisions is NOT the main problem; the leaders on both sides have their own reasons for wanting to portray that false impression.

Okay EVERYbody knows corruption is a big problem in Thailand, but only a few of us were Warning it was leading to huge riots. I am the only one predicting Thailand will break up if they don't end it. I'm the only one saying Thailand will become a G30 Nation within 5 years if they do end it. I'm the only one saying there are guaranteed measures in The Joseph Solution to bring Stability, Peace, and corruption free Prosperity to Thailand.

Too Bad it is 'against the rules' to discuss the Concepts here.

However, TJP and TJS have been detailed to many Thais and many government offices, including the Abhisit website.

Abhisit is either a genius or someone has read him my emails, because the first 2 steps of The Joseph Plan, which I have Date Stamped proof of, are rolling out. Unfortunately, I clearly stated it will never work without my involvement as a Consultant.

I don't care if the want to change the name of it, The Vishnu Solution, even, or The Abhisit Solution, or the The Chuan Solution.

I JUST want it to work!

Plan>>>

1. Polling yes, but it has to be done in a way they will not even imagine.

2. A Canadian style Royal Commission. Only I know the agenda and the participant selection process that will WORK.

[look at the how the Solution ends Corruption would be one part]

So far I have been lying by claiming Thailand could be a G30 Nation.

Will you please sit down for this one?>>> The actual truth of the matter, it is NOT incredulous, based on the real net worth of many of the reigning G20 and G8 Nations, countries, like Thailand, have a chance to be in G10!

Some noted economists have written about this, countries which do not have high personal debt loads.

Thailand and others should build bunkers on the world's financial mountain, so they don't get swept down in land slide that is already in motion.

The term EMERGING Nations is going to take on a whole new meaning when the houses of cards finally fall down.

Will Thailand fall with them, or use its inherint strengths to survive?

[Rucharee]

My hopes are up to my shoulders that PM Abhisit is a good man and up to my knees that he could be a great man. He talked about creating measures for ALL Thais, not just the minority red and yellow activists. He is talking about doing Polls, let's see if they educate the masses instead of the Nabobs. NOW he is pinpointing the #1 cause of the Kingdom's problems. Is this man a dolphin in a shark tank, or what? [One of my Thai correspondents told me Khun Chuan Leekpai was his mentor?] Class divisions is NOT the main problem; the leaders on both sides have their own reasons for wanting to portray that false impression.

Okay EVERYbody knows corruption is a big problem in Thailand, but only a few of us were Warning it was leading to huge riots. I am the only one predicting Thailand will break up if they don't end it. I'm the only one saying Thailand will become a G30 Nation within 5 years if they do end it. I'm the only one saying there are guaranteed measures in The Joseph Solution to bring Stability, Peace, and corruption free Prosperity to Thailand.

Too Bad it is 'against the rules' to discuss the Concepts here.

However, TJP and TJS have been detailed to many Thais and many government offices, including the Abhisit website.

Abhisit is either a genius or someone has read him my emails, because the first 2 steps of The Joseph Plan, which I have Date Stamped proof of, are rolling out. Unfortunately, I clearly stated it will never work without my involvement as a Consultant.

I don't care if the want to change the name of it, The Vishnu Solution, even, or The Abhisit Solution, or the The Chuan Solution.

I JUST want it to work!

Plan>>>

1. Polling yes, but it has to be done in a way they will not even imagine.

2. A Canadian style Royal Commission. Only I know the agenda and the participant selection process that will WORK.

[look at the how the Solution ends Corruption would be one part]

So far I have been lying by claiming Thailand could be a G30 Nation.

Will you please sit down for this one?>>> The actual truth of the matter, it is NOT incredulous, based on the real net worth of many of the reigning G20 and G8 Nations, countries, like Thailand, have a chance to be in G10!

Some noted economists have written about this, countries which do not have high personal debt loads.

Thailand and others should build bunkers on the world's financial mountain, so they don't get swept down in land slide that is already in motion.

The term EMERGING Nations is going to take on a whole new meaning when the houses of cards finally fall down.

Will Thailand fall with them, or use its inherint strengths to survive?

Please check out what car Khun Chuan Leekpai son drive.

It is worth 10 times more that all the assets (include his house) Khun Chuan declared.

[Rucharee]

wasn't mandella a terrorist?

Lets not start that discussion. It could cut a bit close to the bone in the current Thai context.

Good question. Can you please repeat that to General Sondhi?

[Thai at Heart]

wasn't mandella a terrorist?

Lets not start that discussion. It could cut a bit close to the bone in the current Thai context.

Good question. Can you please repeat that to General Sondhi?

Is that General SonThi or Khun SonDhi?

[OneZero]

No matter what you say, Mark & PAD is good. Thaksin & UDD is evil.

Who is this Mark guy? I thought on Thai visa only proper names were to be used. I can't find any politician in Thailand called Mark, if its another name for Mr Thaksin then perhaps you should use that name instead.

If this is true. Seh Deang should not be used as well. Seh Deang is a nick name just like Mark.

OK I get it now it Mark is Seh Daeng's nickname thanks I thought they were talking about Mark Thaksin. Its all clear now cheers.

If not mistaken, I think I remember something about Abhisit using the nickname "Mark" while studing in UK. Not 100% surte about it, but in back of my mind.