Coffee

[Groongthep]

Coffee addiction is like any other substance addiction. Being off three months is nothing. You are an addict for life whether you are drinking it now or not. Chances are very high, you will be back ... I know, I know, you think you are stronger than that. Check back in a year, mate.

This concept that once addicted you are addicted for life is classic AA (and other 12 step addiction program) rhetoric. I know first hand that believing this myth can be very useful and effective in helping one get free of the chains of an addiction, but to be frankly honest, it is indeed a myth. Following the 12 steps of the Alcoholics Annonymous program helped me quit drinking alcohol which I did pathologically for 30+ years and nearly killed me. As a result of following AA, I have now been clean and sober for nearly 14 years. While I thank AA for saving my life, I realise now that following the steps and believing the doctrines were simply psychological methods for training one's brain to stop deeply conditioned addictive behavior. If one is free from the addiction long enough it is my firm conviction that eventually one will lose all desire to ever go back to using booze or drugs and hence will no longer be an addict. There are hard-core AA devotees out there who will strongly disagree with me on this but I suspect that they are the ones who are still not fully at peace with their sobriety or freedom from drugs and have simply substituted the 12 step crutch for the booze and/or drugs. This isn't necessarily a bad thing because being addicted to a 12 step program is a far lesser problem than having a chemical abuse problem but with enough time and mental discipline one can get free of both of them. I have found Buddhist meditation an excellent tool to help rid myself themself of the residual psychological hang-ups left by my 12 step "cure". I don't want to desparage 12 step programs because they have indeed help save the lives of millions of people, I only warn that psychological tools and therapies in the form of 12 step programs can have unwanted side effects just like some life saving drugs which are used to treat cancer and other life threatening diseases. Use them wisely and with caution.

[Jingthing]

I have never been in a 12 step program and have issues with their philosophy. Let me rephrase that in my opinion coffee addiction is a real addiction, just as real as alchohol, cigarettes, and narcotics. No, I am not saying coffee is a lethal drug, though in excess it can be very harmful, just that it is indeed physically addictive. Clearly, individuals vary. However, I think most coffee addicts are indeed addicted for life. I can't point to any studies about this, for example rates of ultimate failure for those who quit for awhile. I doubt it is an area of research that attracts much attention because it is not seen as a very harmful substance except by extreme groups like Mormons.

[Groongthep]

I of course agree that coffee and caffeine are hardly lethal drugs. Forgive me if my long winded post gave the impression that I was suggesting that they were. It was the "once an addict always an addict" statement that got me going. As is probably obvious I also have reservations about 12 step programs which adhere to that philosophy.

[xen]

My experience with coffee is when i was studying or up doing the books for the business or other similar work and i had instant coffee at hand , i would be drinking it continuously. Also though out the day i would be having instant coffee. Then i bought a plunger and used ground coffee and now i find i have one cup in the morning (but strong espresso ) and i very rarely need to have another coffee unless it is a social cup in a café discussing business or just socialising. I can't drink instant anymore because of the taste.

However i do drink either green tea or herbal tea (particularly aniseed or licorice root tea ) though the day.

The other thing about coffee is that i do suffer migraine and the tablets i use to combat migraine are 'caffegot ' which is just a huge hit of concentrated caffeine but there are dangers if you should be stupid enough to use too many. "Caffegot works for me but does not work for other people with migraine. I can't explain that.

[Sheryl]

...If one is free from the addiction long enough it is my firm conviction that eventually one will lose all desire to ever go back to using booze or drugs and hence will no longer be an addict. There are hard-core AA devotees out there who will strongly disagree with me on this...

My understanding of what AA teaches is not that an alcoholic will always have a desire to go back to drinking and certainly many AA members have, like you, reached a point where they are happily abstaining and not in the least desiring of a drink.

What they mean when they say that once an alcoholic always an alcoholic is that people with the disease of alcoholism will never be able to drink in moderation...because they are wired in such a way that alcohol ingestion triggers in them a craving for more. That is in fact the medical definition of alcoholism, and it is quite likely linked to how the individual's body metabolises glucose as well as their neurochemistry.

In my experience this is absolutely true. There are of course individuals who drink too much and are eventually able to change that and drink in moderation, but these people by definition were not alcoholics -- although they may have had a drinking problem.

The majority of people are wired differently and alcohol does not trigger the same response in them, often making it hard for them to understand why the recovered alcoholic needs to completely abstain.

Drugs are a bit different in that usually the substance involved is one that will cause addiction in anyone who uses it long enough. But even there, some people's metabolism and brain chemistry is such that the process of addiction sets in much more rapidly.

We now know that there are specific regions of the brain involved in craving and addiction and that these regions are more active in some individuals.

[bkkjames]

Coffee, smoking, booze, fatty foods, PS3, masturbation.

Everything is bad for you it seems. 

[harrypatterson]

I totally agree with Bkkjames and have same experience. I went to AA for many years and it is a wonderful program and helped me tremendously. However, I have not gone to meetings since coming to Thailand and I no longer drink or have tremendous craving for alcohol. Partly this is because doctor has told me if I drink I will die. However, although I no longer attend meeting or need to, I will also say that it was easier to stay sober with AA than without it, and also I will say that in addition to sobriety AA gave me much serenity and happiness and also very good friends, and although I do not really need it to stay sober, I am still considering rrejoining the program if I find an appropriate time and location of meetings. AA is nto for everyone, but if you are having trouble with alcohol, I strongly suggest you give it a try and see for yourself. You are the only person who will know what is good for you.

As for coffee addiction, I used to drink a great amount of it every day but after suffering heart rate and blood pressure problems I quit totally for about 6 months and now drink 2 or 3 cups a day, but mostly I drink green tea and cocoa. One thing to remember is that instant coffee has less caffeine than brew coffee.

[Groongthep]

What they mean when they say that once an alcoholic always an alcoholic is that people with the disease of alcoholism will never be able to drink in moderation...because they are wired in such a way that alcohol ingestion triggers in them a craving for more. That is in fact the medical definition of alcoholism, and it is quite likely linked to how the individual's body metabolises glucose as well as their neurochemistry.

Yes, what you say is true. I guess where I have the problem is being stuck with the label "alcoholic" or "addict" in spite of the fact that I haven't touched the stuff in almost a decade and a half.

Also, sorry to have stuck this on a thread about coffee. Even though caffeine certainly fits the definition of a drug it is a much less powerful one than those I was talking about. I still enjoy a cup or two every morning and sometimes after a good meal.

[bkkjames]

I am a proud coffee addict or rather it's addicted to me.

Every time I go shopping and get near the coffee aisle, I hear the espresso calling my name. James, have you tasted me lately? Don't worry about the price, I am worth it.

Worse still is when I walk past a gourmet coffee shop, it sends out this aroma that I can't help but notice.

[harrypatterson]

In certain ways it was harder to quit coffee than alcohol. I know for sure alcohol is very bad for me. But every day there is some study that says coffee is very bad and next day another one says it is very healthy, so I have not as much fear of caffeine as alcohol.

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

I used to work in a public relations firm in Washington DC up until 1996. I still have friends who work for various food organizations like the poultry council, egg growers, etc. These organizations members have billions of reasons to sponsor favorable research. University researchers who are grant hungry will often slice a study to show favorable effects of certain foods, supplements etc. It's a game. Researchers want to get published and funded and industry players need media to publicize to protect their market share.

Once the study is in hand then the public relations people make sure it gets lot of play in the media.

This is nothing new. These companies are in it to make money. If they can entice favorable studies then it gives consumers a little doubt or fuel for rationalization.

Someone thinks. Maybe I should give up coffee. My stomach is a mess, my sleep disturbed and my blood pressure is higher but wait this study in the paper says it's good for you. That's all it takes to keep the customers on board. Just create a little doubt or claimed benefit.

By adjusting a study to remove certain subjects or demographics can completely change a conclusion. I have seen it done many times. It's still a form of science but they way they publicize it by agreeing to buy advertising in return for mentioning the study on air or in print is gaming the system.

Do you ever notice there is a constant stream of studies being publicized about the benefits of alcohol? A long time ago the tobacco industry even did it.

Don't get taken in by this.

[wpcoe]

One thing to remember is that instant coffee has less caffeine than brew coffee.

That's something I didn't know. Regardless, though, instant coffee still has enough caffeine for me to get the withdrawal headaches when I stop cold turkey.

[katana]

Coffee started giving me bad heartburn recently, so I had to give up.

[eslteacher]

I love coffee, but I dont have anymore than 1-2 cups a day.

Also, if you're putting sugar into every one of those 25 cups of coffee, you are doing alot of harm to your body. You need to stop that immediately. That is an absurd amount of sugar. Gradually decrease your coffee intake, and stop putting sugar in it. Put milk/cream, no sugar. Drinking coffee is fine, just dont overdo it.

[jfchandler]

I have a simpler question....

I guess Thais must not be big fans of decaf instant coffee... (especially the bus, taxi and motocy guys)... because I hardly see any decaf coffee on the store shelves...

A jar of Moccona decaf here and there... But not much else....

Healthwise, supposedly, drinking decaf coffee in moderation is supposed to be OK-to-good for you... and I'd assume it's non-addictive, unlike caffeinated beverages...

For the decaf drinkers out there, what and where are you buying???

[ignis]

For the decaf drinkers out there, what and where are you buying???

There are shops that sell coffee from Malaysia, myself buy all from the Malaysian Boarder Town, 1/2 the price of the same coffee bought in Thailand.

Anyone wanting Decaf when they visit, I have a 200 gram jar of green label 'Nescafe Blend 37'

On another note, how can Carrefour charge 465 baht for a jar of Nescafe Gold? on the Malaysian Boarder Town but still inside Thailand it cost 215 baht? I have not driven over the Boarder into Malaysia but have been told that it cost 199 baht there.

[jfchandler]

Ya... the Moccona decaf jar I saw at Carrefour was priced around 400 baht, I think... 445 baht, but can't recall exactly. At any rate, it was pretty pricey...

I bought 8 oz jars of Folger's instant decaf in the states on my recent visit back for about $7, or...about 230 baht.

I don't mind paying a bit more here....but almost double... no thanks...

[jts-khorat]

I've been addicted to coffee in the past -- those headaches from cold turkey withdrawal are a B*TCH and nothing helped.

A lot of the medicines against migraine contain small amounts of coffeine, I imagine they could help with this particular symptom when it becomes to strong to handle.

[jfchandler]

I don't think this subject is all that complicated...or at least... it need not be...

1. All things in moderation. If you do too much of anything, it's likely to be bad for you... So don't do that...

2. As best as I'm aware, all of the addictive/withdrawal issues related to coffee stem from its caffeine content. So, if those are a problem for you or you want to avoid those things, drink decaf coffee.

But of course, many coffee drinkers drink it specifically for the caffeine jolt... It would be better for those folks to live their lives so they don't NEED caffeine to wake up in the morning or to stay awake at work.

I started drinking iced decaf coffee at home lately just to a) keep cool, have some variety from iced green tea and c) because in checking, coffee (even decaf, and similar to green tea) has high levels of anti-oxidants (polyphenols) that are supposed to help protect you from disease.

So if you just stick to decaf coffee with a bit of milk (hot or iced), you actually probably are doing something good for your health.

But if you're drinking the crap like Nescafe 3-in-1 that has more sugar and creamer content that actual coffee, it's a bad move.

[Somnambulist]

I totally agree with Bkkjames and have same experience. I went to AA for many years and it is a wonderful program and helped me tremendously. However, I have not gone to meetings since coming to Thailand and I no longer drink or have tremendous craving for alcohol. Partly this is because doctor has told me if I drink I will die. However, although I no longer attend meeting or need to, I will also say that it was easier to stay sober with AA than without it, and also I will say that in addition to sobriety AA gave me much serenity and happiness and also very good friends, and although I do not really need it to stay sober, I am still considering rrejoining the program if I find an appropriate time and location of meetings. AA is nto for everyone, but if you are having trouble with alcohol, I strongly suggest you give it a try and see for yourself. You are the only person who will know what is good for you.As for coffee addiction, I used to drink a great amount of it every day but after suffering heart rate and blood pressure problems I quit totally for about 6 months and now drink 2 or 3 cups a day, but mostly I drink green tea and cocoa. One thing to remember is that instant coffee has less caffeine than brew coffee.

What they mean when they say that once an alcoholic always an alcoholic is that people with the disease of alcoholism will never be able to drink in moderation...because they are wired in such a way that alcohol ingestion triggers in them a craving for more. That is in fact the medical definition of alcoholism, and it is quite likely linked to how the individual's body metabolises glucose as well as their neurochemistry.

Yes, what you say is true. I guess where I have the problem is being stuck with the label "alcoholic" or "addict" in spite of the fact that I haven't touched the stuff in almost a decade and a half. Also, sorry to have stuck this on a thread about coffee. Even though caffeine certainly fits the definition of a drug it is a much less powerful one than those I was talking about. I still enjoy a cup or two every morning and sometimes after a good meal.

Hi all, please allow me to rehijack the thread for a minute. The last time I drank I caused a horrific traffic accident that could easily have killed me, although I was uninjured, amazingly. I was arrested, though. Maybe it was those two things that scared me sober: I didn't enjoy my brush with death and neither did I enjoy being handcuffed. I started going to AA meetings. I knew the court was going to make me go anyway. In meetings so often you hear drunkalogues. Interminable, blow-by-blow accounts of how they drank. I still don't see a need for that but back then I really hated to hear it. I was never going to drink again, I'd made that decision so let's move on. Well, three years into my sobriety I heard a voice well up from my subconscious saying, "F@@@ AA, someday I'm going to drink again". That scared me so I went to a meeting and shared this little insight and the moment I hear myself say it sanity prevailed. I had a similar but less vulgar thought at the six-year mark, and at nine years seriously entertained the thought of doing psychedelics but only in some sort of indigenous, spiritual setting. Hahaha, I wanted to get high. An old member said, Anything that makes us feel real good fast is probably dangerous, and the penny dropped. I've got 15 years now and and despite those times, which in retrospect corresponded with times of spiritual and moral regression, I've not been a white-knuckle member at all. Sorry I'm so long-winded. My point is that, as Harry Patterson wrote, it's easier for me to stay sober, social and happy when I stay in contact with the program and it's members. And it's a good way to give back to the program that saved my life. And I can do that because I have the humility to say, I AM an alcoholic.

My church-going brother once asked me if I have to go to "those meetings" for the rest of my life. I replied by asking him if he has to go to church for the rest of his. As for you, Groongthep, do you have to keep meditating for the rest of your life? I'm sure you'd agree that people like you and I need some sort of path or program. I guess I just wish you'd explain what you mean by "addicted to meetings". I don't think I'm addicted because I go to about one meeting a week. Sometimes I go out of a sense of duty, sometimes because to see friends, and sometimes I just need to get out of the house. I hope you mean the kind of member who says, "Whew, I'm soooo relieved to finally be back in a meeting. It's been three whole days and I'm really feeling squirrely". I don't understand that either.

[leininger]

Coffee does have some anti-oxidants but not nearly as much as tea. However, the number 1 source of anit-oxidants in dark chocolate, including cocoa. Only a very small amount provides all of these you need. Strangely, though, to get the full benefit in cocoa you should drink the natural cocoa, such as hershey's, without sugar. I drink it every morning and it is somewhat bitter, but I got used to it and also has very few calories.

[Jingthing]

Coffee does have some anti-oxidants but not nearly as much as tea. However, the number 1 source of anit-oxidants in dark chocolate, including cocoa. Only a very small amount provides all of these you need. Strangely, though, to get the full benefit in cocoa you should drink the natural cocoa, such as hershey's, without sugar. I drink it every morning and it is somewhat bitter, but I got used to it and also has very few calories.

I drink cocoa also. I read somewhere that cinnamon neutralizes the harmful effects of sugars. Maybe true, maybe not. Anyway I add some honey and cinnamon to it. It tastes really good, kind of like Mexican chocolate.

[mommysboy]

I quit coffee cold turkey about three months ago. My intake was about two mugs in the morning and one after lunch, for 20 years. I always got really drowsy in the afternoon and yet was getting plenty of sleep, so wondered if it might be 'caffiene crash.' Drinking more coffee in the afternoon to try and counter the drowsiness never worked. It was as if the caffeine could take me to a certain level and once I crashed, nothing could take me back up.

The withdrawal was pure hel_l, lasted a full seven days. Nonstop headache for the first four days, unable to think clearly, body aches, the lot. After that I was fine.

Since I stopped my afternoon energy level is way better, so I can only conclude that I was experiencing some kind of crash every day. I would never have quit if I were retired or didn't have to work. I'd simply take a nap in the afternoon. But I don't have that luxury, too many work deadlines.

I fully expected I would start drinking a bit of coffee again after my experiment was over. But the horrible withdrawal made me see coffee in a much more negative light than I ever had before. so I'm off the bean. Maybe when I retire I'll take it up again, and enjoy the naps

BTW I talked to an American doctor recently who told me caffeine boosts your insulin level and hence can actually make you gain weight rather than lose it.

Sure you haven't ditched some things that aren't beneficial to you, the coffee and the nap!

Maybe we are addicted to fast lifestyles and don't have time for our natural body rythms any more.

I speak as the worst sinner!

[wpcoe]

Just today I bought a regular B115 jar of Moccona coffee at Tesco Lotus, and was surprised to see that all the bottles had anti-shoplifting tags on them.

I guess some of us addicts are stealing to feed our addiction?

[mizzi39]

edit: double post

[mizzi39]

I briefly skimmed through the post, but I agree with most that to much of any substance is not good for you, so moderation is the key.

I am down to one cup of coffee a day and have been for sometime. On occasion I may have two cups, but always before noon time. It makes my stomach churn, and I feel a jolt followed by a "weak" tired feeling. from the caffeine in coffee. Although i like the taste of coffee I really don't enjoy the varieties offered here in the LOS, plus no one else drinks it in my household, so brewed coffee will just go to waste as I will not drink a pot of it. .I have grown accustomed to instant for convenience sake.

I recently started to order Organic Japanese Sencha tea straight from Japan. The shipping costs from Japan to Thailand are minimal, and I receive the tea in 2-3 days. Caffeine from green tea gives me a much more alert and energetic "buzz". I do 4 infusions from the same leaf and drink out of a 5 oz.cup.

One cup of coffee has an average of about 100mg-150mg of caffeine while the same cup of green tea has an average of about 10-20mg per cup, so I am slowly switching to green tea for my daily caffeine fix.

[Somnambulist]

I briefly skimmed through the post, but I agree with most that to much of any substance is not good for you, so moderation is the key.

I am down to one cup of coffee a day and have been for sometime. On occasion I may have two cups, but always before noon time. It makes my stomach churn, and I feel a jolt followed by a "weak" tired feeling. from the caffeine in coffee. Although i like the taste of coffee I really don't enjoy the varieties offered here in the LOS, plus no one else drinks it in my household, so brewed coffee will just go to waste as I will not drink a pot of it. .I have grown accustomed to instant for convenience sake.

I recently started to order Organic Japanese Sencha tea straight from Japan. The shipping costs from Japan to Thailand are minimal, and I receive the tea in 2-3 days. Caffeine from green tea gives me a much more alert and energetic "buzz". I do 4 infusions from the same leaf and drink out of a 5 oz.cup.

One cup of coffee has an average of about 100mg-150mg of caffeine while the same cup of green tea has an average of about 10-20mg per cup, so I am slowly switching to green tea for my daily caffeine fix.

Hi Missi, Could you please give me the contact info for the sencha seller in Japan. Thanks.

[jfchandler]

Shopping at Top's the other day, and noticed they're selling a 200g jar of decaf instant coffee, Taster's Choice, I believe, for 454 baht... What a bargain!

[bkkjames]

Shopping at Top's the other day, and noticed they're selling a 200g jar of decaf instant coffee, Taster's Choice, I believe, for 454 baht... What a bargain!

I hate restaurants that allow coffee drinking. Just the smell of fresh brewed cuppa joe makes me sit up and notice... 

[Somnambulist]

I briefly skimmed through the post, but I agree with most that to much of any substance is not good for you, so moderation is the key.

I am down to one cup of coffee a day and have been for sometime. On occasion I may have two cups, but always before noon time. It makes my stomach churn, and I feel a jolt followed by a "weak" tired feeling. from the caffeine in coffee. Although i like the taste of coffee I really don't enjoy the varieties offered here in the LOS, plus no one else drinks it in my household, so brewed coffee will just go to waste as I will not drink a pot of it. .I have grown accustomed to instant for convenience sake.

I recently started to order Organic Japanese Sencha tea straight from Japan. The shipping costs from Japan to Thailand are minimal, and I receive the tea in 2-3 days. Caffeine from green tea gives me a much more alert and energetic "buzz". I do 4 infusions from the same leaf and drink out of a 5 oz.cup.

One cup of coffee has an average of about 100mg-150mg of caffeine while the same cup of green tea has an average of about 10-20mg per cup, so I am slowly switching to green tea for my daily caffeine fix.

Hi Mizzi,

I have the exact same reaction to coffee. I love the buzz it gives me but I get strung out so easily that I know I'd be better off never drinking it. The eat-according-to-your-blood-type theory, which I know very little about, asserts that people with type A blood, like me, should never drink coffee. Are you type A, too? I'd be interesting to get feedback from others on this thread, too. What's your blood type and how does your body react to coffee?