Electrical Experienced Members

[LivinLOS]

I recall seeing some fairly detail electric responses from members in here.

Theres a debate going on where a member has installed a plug in type device that reduces their electric bill (by some 500% !!). We keep pointing out that its possible that a device may trick the metering system, but the device cannot, simply by being plugged into the house system, reduce energy consumption. Energy use (if all times of use, efficiency of appliances etc) is a constant.. a 1000w water heater is a 1000w heater etc.

Any comments ??

[InterestedObserver]

Free energy, here we go again! You can trick the metering system but you cannot change the laws of physics. Alter the waveform (power factor) and the meter can be made to read anything you want.

Edited June 19, 2010 by InterestedObserver

[LivinLOS]

Free energy, here we go again! You can trick the metering system but you cannot change the laws of physics. Alter the waveform (power factor) and the meter can be made to read anything you want.

Thanks.. Exactly what we are trying to explain..

curious behind the theory of altering the waveform (not doing it).. By that do you mean altering the phase of the ac ??

[Dellboy218]

As has already been mentioned it is to do with the power factor. The relationship between the current and voltage waveforms, if they are in phase then that would be a PF of 1. One of the biggest losses in domestic use has been fluorescent lights when they have been used with wire wound ballasts. The 'cheap' wire wound ballast will introduce a PF of .3 to .4 caused by the coil forcing the current waveform to lag. If you measure the current/power consumption of, say, a lamp circuit with a 20 watt fluorescent tube you will probably find it taking in excess of 80W ( over 100W from a 40W fluorescent lamp circuit). If you put a 4 micro Farad capacitor across a 20W lamp ballast input to the other line this will drop to 30 something Watts. This is Irrespective of whether you have a 20W lamp or an energy saving 18 Watt lamp. Electronic ballasts get around this problem and hence, energy saving lamps. With modern domestic appliances, Tv's, Videos, computers etc the shift has been to what is known as switch mode power supplies rather than the old fashioned types with bigger, heavier and more expensive transformers. These tend to distort the Sine wave and cause a lot of problems with power stations around the world as the distorted sine wave also changes the PF. Factories that have a lot of inductance, motors and the like tend to have a large power conditioners on their supply. Domesticaly without any machinery, look to your lights. Without spending too much on electronic ballasts a 4. something Micro Farad capacitor on a 20 W lamp ballast and a 5 point something Micro Farad capacitor on a 40W lamp ballast will work just as well.

[gotlost]

Beat your brains out.

[LivinLOS]

I will go and have a google with power factor..

Thanks

[elkangorito]

You may also like to google 'harmonics'.

[Crossy]

You may also want to Google 'Real Power' and 'Apparent Power', electricity meters measure Real Power. Using a voltmeter and ammeter (VxA) will give you Apparent Power which is invariably the trick used when these devices are demonstrated.

With the exception of voltage-optimisation (which does work under certain circumstances) I am still waiting for a scientifically controlled demonstration of one of these devices saving even 1% on electricity consumption.

[cloudhopper]

Any time AC power is delivered into a load of a different impedance than the line some power will be reflected back to the source. So a device that creates a canceling reactive wave i.e. mutually transforms the line and load impedances will result in more efficient power transfer. Impractical and unnecessary in most domestic cases.

[elkangorito]

electricity meters measure Real Power.

I don't know about the new electronic meters (I think they can measure everything) but the old electro-mechanical meters only measure Real (True) Power. In this case, Power Factor is not accounted for.

[Crossy]

electricity meters measure Real Power.

I don't know about the new electronic meters (I think they can measure everything) but the old electro-mechanical meters only measure Real (True) Power. In this case, Power Factor is not accounted for.

Indeed, with sample rates of several kilo-samples per second the electronic meters can take account of PF (including harmonics). However, all those I'm aware of in domestic applications indicate and bill based on Real Power only.

Industrial applications are a different matter with penalties for consumers with poor power factor (in the UK anyway, dunno about Thailand).

[elkangorito]

Off topic...I visited a site yesterday (for electrical investigative reasons). It was supplied by a single phase IT connected transformer. There is a 3 phase transformer next to this single phase Txer, which is also IT connected.

Electro-mechanical KwH meters are in use for both Txers.

Txer is short for Transformer.

Edited June 20, 2010 by elkangorito

[LivinLOS]

You may also want to Google 'Real Power' and 'Apparent Power', electricity meters measure Real Power. Using a voltmeter and ammeter (VxA) will give you Apparent Power which is invariably the trick used when these devices are demonstrated.

I was of the belief that these devices did little or nothing to actually save power, but did work to confuse the meter.. Even seen a vid of one that claims to reverse the meter (obviously not using negative energy ) so are you saying they dont even do that ?? Or do you mean that is the 'trick' that confuses meters.

Note my electric bill isnt high enough to be worth buying machines to trick it.. So I am not interested on a practical level, I just got curious about what they were doing which disrupts the measuring.

[elkangorito]

If you wish to see some really well advertised Thai 'snake oil', visit boondee.net

There is a product on the boondee site called the B4-88, which purportedly makes the meter run backwards. This is not really a lie but it is highly illegal to use such a device.

If waveforms of certain angles are presented to an electro-mechanichal KwH meter, it is quite possible to make the KwH meter run backwards.

Of course, one does not know of possible damage to equipment as a result of such waveforms.

[InterestedObserver]

Indeed, with sample rates of several kilo-samples per second the electronic meters can take account of PF (including harmonics). However, all those I'm aware of in domestic applications indicate and bill based on Real Power only.

Those digital meters use instantaneous, simultaneous samples of voltage and current to determine instantaneous power [P(t)=V(t)*I(t)] which is then integrated over time to derive the average (real) power. There is no phase angle between the instantaneous samples, hence no power factor involved in the real power calculation..

[Crossy]

If you wish to see some really well advertised Thai 'snake oil', visit boondee.net

Sadly they've discontinued their Ghost Repeller Trisaksri Ghost Repellent | Boing Boing Gadgets , in tests with the unit running none of the witnesses saw a ghost. 100% effective

[LivinLOS]

If you wish to see some really well advertised Thai 'snake oil', visit boondee.net

There is a product on the boondee site called the B4-88, which purportedly makes the meter run backwards. This is not really a lie but it is highly illegal to use such a device.

Since starting to research this, I had found that site..

Not sure if I would class if as snake oil, if it does as they claim in reversing the meter, as snake oil implies it not working.

I dont think they are pretending it does anything to the electric use, except confuse the billing. Hence seems accurately represented if it does that. And yes agreed it would be illegal and only of interest to someone using larger amounts of electric. One immediate application I could think of are certain hydroponic growers who dont want the spikes in useage patterns noticed.

[InterestedObserver]

Any time AC power is delivered into a load of a different impedance than the line some power will be reflected back to the source. So a device that creates a canceling reactive wave i.e. mutually transforms the line and load impedances will result in more efficient power transfer. Impractical and unnecessary in most domestic cases.

I don't think we are talking power transmission line operation here, just kWhr meters and what makes the disk go around. Never had to worry much about line or load impedance when I needed to send more power, just crank up the governor and/or voltage regulator controls.

Edited June 20, 2010 by InterestedObserver

[simon43]

There are some interesting ways to 'disrupt' the electricity meter, or other electrical/electronic devices. One way is to use 'RF'. or radio frequency power, such as is radiated by a radio transmitter. Even quite low power levels can cause chaos to electronics.

I typically use my 100 watt radio amateur transceiver in the evenings, and whilst it's transmitting, the TV remote will not work, and fluorescent lights in our house that are not switched on can 'strike' up quite brightly.

Simon

[mdechgan]

The "so called" device doesn't reduce consumption but tricks the meter. They range from a really strong magnet, rf transmitter to a switching power supply that reduces spikes.

[bankruatsteve]

I can't believe there is serious discussion on this. ?? The only way to reverse a meter is to provide power and I'm not sure the meters in Thailand can do that. (?) All these other claims are simply ridiculous.

[LivinLOS]

I can't believe there is serious discussion on this. ?? The only way to reverse a meter is to provide power and I'm not sure the meters in Thailand can do that. (?) All these other claims are simply ridiculous.

The meter is simply a measuring device, if it works via eddy currents I suspect that it may not be as impossible as you think. The devices demonstrated do appear to just that but the questions would be, what does it to to the wave form, and would it harm devices used on that circuit.

[Forkinhades]

I can't believe there is serious discussion on this. ?? The only way to reverse a meter is to provide power and I'm not sure the meters in Thailand can do that. (?) All these other claims are simply ridiculous.

The meter is simply a measuring device, if it works via eddy currents I suspect that it may not be as impossible as you think. The devices demonstrated do appear to just that but the questions would be, what does it to to the wave form, and would it harm devices used on that circuit.

I have never seen a current transformer that works via eddy currents

[InterestedObserver]

The meter is simply a measuring device, if it works via eddy currents I suspect that it may not be as impossible as you think. The devices demonstrated do appear to just that but the questions would be, what does it to to the wave form, and would it harm devices used on that circuit.

I have never seen a current transformer that works via eddy currents

Eddy currents are induced in the aluminum disk of a kWhr meter and produce the turning torque.

Edited June 24, 2010 by InterestedObserver

[Crossy]

The meter is simply a measuring device, if it works via eddy currents I suspect that it may not be as impossible as you think. The devices demonstrated do appear to just that but the questions would be, what does it to to the wave form, and would it harm devices used on that circuit.

I have never seen a current transformer that works via eddy currents

Eddy currents are induced in the aluminum disk of a kWhr meter and produce the turning torque.

And it's not just a current measuring device, a voltage coil is also included so they really do measure True Power (so simply fiddling with the Power Factor will have negligible effect).

I've seen a meter reverser working, and the disc does go backwards, slowly (and only when there's no other load), never got to look inside the box.

[elkangorito]

I've never known a domestic electro-mechanical KWH meter, which uses a "current transformer" as one of it's internal components.

[bankruatsteve]

Any schematics of these "devices" available? I can't find. Just saying something and actually doing something (which might be evident from schematic) could be interesting.

[InterestedObserver]

Eddy currents are induced in the aluminum disk of a kWhr meter and produce the turning torque.

And it's not just a current measuring device, a voltage coil is also included so they really do measure True Power (so simply fiddling with the Power Factor will have negligible effect).

kWhr meter disk rpm is directly proportional to power factor. Vary the power factor and you vary the disk speed, hence the amount of energy registered.

[Crossy]

Eddy currents are induced in the aluminum disk of a kWhr meter and produce the turning torque.

And it's not just a current measuring device, a voltage coil is also included so they really do measure True Power (so simply fiddling with the Power Factor will have negligible effect).

kWhr meter disk rpm is directly proportional to power factor. Vary the power factor and you vary the disk speed, hence the amount of energy registered.

NOPE!!!!

Not correct.

EDIT Never thought I'd be disagreeing with you IA

The rotational speed is directly proportional to the Real Power consumed, Reactive Power (the bit at 90^o) is mostly ignored by the meter. A conventional kWh meter connected to a purely reactive load (L or C) will not spin regardless of the current being drawn. Actually did this experiment in Machines and Control at Bath Uni.

[Forkinhades]

agree with crossy