Dulwich International School No More

[george]

Dulwich no more

KOH KAEW: As of midnight tonight Dulwich International College (DIC) will no longer exist, as the island’s premier private school becomes the British Curriculum International School, Phuket.

This afternoon, on the school’s final day as DIC, the annual prizegiving assembly was held.

During his speech to the assembly, the Academic Director, Dr George Hickman, said, “Yes, we are undergoing a change but I can tell you, from my perspective, that it is good.”

He told students, “I am looking forward to welcoming you back in the fall and moving on to some great plans to continue the strong reputation of the school for here on and for many years to come.”

He later described the coming academic year as “a honeymoon year”. Casting an eye around, he added, “Looking at all these smiling [student] faces makes it all worthwhile.”

--Phuket Gazette 2005-06-24

[Laulen]

Glad to hear that it hasn't gone bust!

It has some fantastic water sports facilities. On my last visit we had a fantastic time on the drag-ski; a sort of snow drag lift on water!

[suzannejames]

I'm glad the transition appears to have gone smoothly.

Dulwich is one of the schools I'd been considering for my boys. ###### pricey, though!

I wonder if the fee structure will remain as it has been, or if in light of Phuket's financial hard times, the admission and tuition costs will see a bit of a drop.

I'd be more inclined to commit to enrolling my boys if there was any significant reduction in fees.

If not, I suppose I'll stay open-minded and continue looking for a bit of a less expensive school. My yearly income would be hard-pressed to dole out the high cost of education at what is now the British Curriculum International School, Phuket.

On the other hand, if there are no other less well advertised schools that are nearly equivalent in educational standards ~ well it's bite the bullet, maybe...

Less well advertised school, good standards ~ do they exist? Where?! I've not been lucky yet in finding one. But maybe ~ any help with this?

So far, there are no websites nor much mention at all of EP schools that I've found. I keep looking..

[MickeyinPhuket]

  I'm glad the transition appears to have gone smoothly. 

Dulwich is one of the schools I'd been considering for my boys.  ###### pricey, though!

I wonder if the fee structure will remain as it has been, or if in light of Phuket's financial hard times, the admission and tuition costs will see a bit of a drop.

I'd be more inclined to commit to enrolling my boys if there was any significant reduction in fees.       

If not, I suppose I'll stay open-minded and continue looking for a bit of a less expensive school.  My yearly income would be hard-pressed to dole out the high cost of education at what is now the British Curriculum International School, Phuket.

 

On the other hand, if there are no other less well advertised schools that are nearly equivalent in educational standards ~ well it's bite the bullet, maybe... 

Less well advertised school, good standards ~ do they exist?  Where?!    I've not been lucky yet in finding one.  But maybe ~  any help with this? 

So far, there are no websites nor much mention at all  of EP schools that I've found.  I keep looking..

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I can recommend "KajonKiet" School on Chao Fa Road just past Phuket Animal Hospital in the grounds of Phuket Villa 5.

Hasn't got the sports facilities of Dulwich but in my opinion has a much better educational programme.

One of the spellings in my 8 yr olds test was palentol... palientolij..... see what I mean

[Digger]

  I'm glad the transition appears to have gone smoothly. 

Dulwich is one of the schools I'd been considering for my boys.  ###### pricey, though!

I wonder if the fee structure will remain as it has been, or if in light of Phuket's financial hard times, the admission and tuition costs will see a bit of a drop.

I'd be more inclined to commit to enrolling my boys if there was any significant reduction in fees.       

If not, I suppose I'll stay open-minded and continue looking for a bit of a less expensive school.  My yearly income would be hard-pressed to dole out the high cost of education at what is now the British Curriculum International School, Phuket.

 

On the other hand, if there are no other less well advertised schools that are nearly equivalent in educational standards ~ well it's bite the bullet, maybe... 

Less well advertised school, good standards ~ do they exist?  Where?!    I've not been lucky yet in finding one.  But maybe ~  any help with this? 

So far, there are no websites nor much mention at all  of EP schools that I've found.  I keep looking..

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It would not surprise me if they put the fee's UP - after all a reduction in pupils means someone has to pay and based on typical Thai experience its not going to be the owner, so it only remains that the customer has to stump up more cash....

[darsie]

Libellous statement removed

Edited June 25, 2005 by dr_Pat_Pong

[Martin]

I had a pretty good look around the international schools scene in Bangkok last winter. What a motley collection---ranging from 'pretty good' through 'effective but pricey' to 'expensive, pretentious and crap'.

One that I saw fom the inside, as a Substitute Teacher, and thought was pretty good was N.I.S.T. It struck me as a school that I would be quite happy to have a child of mine attending.

There is no Which? Guide to Thailand's international schools, so visiting the possible ones and trying to suss out what they would be really like for your kid is a time-consuming activity that just has to be accepted and lived with if you are going to expat, I'm afraid.

[JSixpack]

[KOH KAEW: As of midnight tonight Dulwich International College (DIC) will no longer exist, as the island’s premier private school becomes the British Curriculum International School, Phuket.

--Phuket Gazette 2005-06-24

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What an uninspired name at any rate.

[raslin]

[KOH KAEW: As of midnight tonight Dulwich International College (DIC) will no longer exist, as the island’s premier private school becomes the British Curriculum International School, Phuket.

--Phuket Gazette 2005-06-24

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What an uninspired name at any rate.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And the Academic Director is also uninspired. Thailand doesn't have a fall and in Britain (including Dulwich) it is called Autumn!

[frankthetank]

Libellous statement removed

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

wouldn't mind finding out what the 'libellous statement' was!!

[Martin]

Libellous statement removed

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

wouldn't mind finding out what the 'libellous statement' was!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes. A PM from darsie with a copy of it would be welcome here, too!!

I was careful in my posting about what I sussed out last winter, when I was working as a Supply, or Substitute, Teacher for international schools in Bangkok. Postings musn't be libellous, but I take it that PMs are confidential expressions of opininion between the two persons involved.

[darsie]

Notice to all previous posters on this thread - please check your PMs

Darsie

[NBT TV Phuket]

Andaman News on TV11 Phuket (local VHF not cable) & FM90.5 has a 10 minute interview with the Academic Director, Dr George Hickman, on Thursday 30 June at 8.30am. A mini video of interview may be available later at http://www.thaisnews.com/show_eachnews.php?catnewsid=16

Today there was a Young Reporter about their final prize day, with a minivideo at http://www.thaisnews.com/news_detail.php?newsid=134034

[Martin]

I have missed the above interview. Was a reason for the 'parting of the ways' between franchiser and franchisee given?

Private international schools seem to be a strange business, and this fashion for the buying of a 'name' is one of the strangenesses.

It seemed to me that the private-school market was oversupplied, and any significant downturn in the economy could see 'falling rolls' with a vengeance, but I would have thought that Dulwich could be confident that it would make up its student-number losses by gaining 'unfortunates' (i.e.customers from the schools that would become unviable and close down) in any real shakeout.

Can any old hands enlighten us as to how the 1997 economic downturn impacted on international schools?

[NBT TV Phuket]

The mini video of interview is online and you can download/copy/email for other websites/people as you wish, as free of copyright; some reasons for parting were given;

see http://www.thaisnews.com/news_detail.php?newsid=134425

[igotworms]

  I'm glad the transition appears to have gone smoothly. 

Dulwich is one of the schools I'd been considering for my boys.  ###### pricey, though!

I wonder if the fee structure will remain as it has been, or if in light of Phuket's financial hard times, the admission and tuition costs will see a bit of a drop.

I'd be more inclined to commit to enrolling my boys if there was any significant reduction in fees.       

If not, I suppose I'll stay open-minded and continue looking for a bit of a less expensive school.  My yearly income would be hard-pressed to dole out the high cost of education at what is now the British Curriculum International School, Phuket.

 

On the other hand, if there are no other less well advertised schools that are nearly equivalent in educational standards ~ well it's bite the bullet, maybe... 

Less well advertised school, good standards ~ do they exist?  Where?!    I've not been lucky yet in finding one.  But maybe ~  any help with this? 

So far, there are no websites nor much mention at all  of EP schools that I've found.  I keep looking..

I can recommend "KajonKiet" School on Chao Fa Road just past Phuket Animal Hospital in the grounds of Phuket Villa 5.

Hasn't got the sports facilities of Dulwich but in my opinion has a much better educational programme.

One of the spellings in my 8 yr olds test was palentol... palientolij..... see what I mean

Are you kidding? Yes, there are a few good teachers at this school, but otherwise, this place is a joke. Curriculum? They have no curriculum. Its based around a few measily textbooks. The teachers sometimes have to develop it as they go. Dulwich (BIS) uses the national British Curriculum. There is no comparison.

[Martin]

Igotworms may have got his facts right in this:

"Are you kidding? Yes, there are a few good teachers at this school, but otherwise, this place is a joke. Curriculum? They have no curriculum. Its based around a few measily textbooks. The teachers sometimes have to develop it as they go. Dulwich (BIS) uses the national British Curriculum. There is no comparison."

but it does not necessarily lead to his implied conclusion of "This place would not serve your child well". 'Kajon Kiet' may well be the better choice for your child, even though all the things said may be true.

If there are a few good teachers and they are set to stay and your child will come under their influence, then that is all you want.

In fact, any international school that can say " We have a record of being able to hold on to a few good teachers" is one that really should be considered carefully by any prospecting parent. It may be a (schooling) Eldorado.

One of my observations was that, among international schools, there is a lot of "We are ratchetting down because we are losing those we needed to keep, and having to keep those we would have done well to lose".

"We teach to the British National Curriculum" is an empty boast.

Doing 'Supply' off and on in UK for the past few years showed me what enormous harm the National Curriculum has done.

When good, effective, longer-experienced teachers get together they bemoan Kenneth Baker's and David Blunkett's fixation on getting a National Curriculum. Those teachers remember the days when teachers decided for themselves what they would teach (within the broader constraints of the exam syllabus) and chose the appropriate textbook (all of which are 'measly' compared to the contents of a good teacher's mind).

Those days were the Golden Age of Education for those who got to the better schools with the better teachers.

The National Curriculum was brought in to try to control the worse schools with the worse teachers (who were using their freedom to direct their own work as the freedom to do no work).

The National Curriculum may, or may not, come to be seen to have been an effective device for improving things at the bottom, but it will be seen to have done it at the expense of things at the top.

Were I a parent in Phuket looking for a school for my kid, I would certainly take a look at this 'Kajon Kiet" school and enquire of those good teachers why they were working there in preference to other places, such as Dulwich.

Incidentally, ignore differences of sports facilities---your child isn't going to grow up disadvantaged by lack of sports facilities if s/he has the advantage of being brought up by you in Phuket. The fixation on sports facilities is a hangover from the old English Boarding Schools, where lack of sports facilities was something that, in the old days in a boarding school, quite rightly made a school undesirable to parents.

If one's kid would be as well schooled by the 'few good teachers' at "Kajonkiet, Phuket" as at "ex-Dulwich, Phuket" and the former would cost less than the latter, then one should, as a good parent, save the money (and spend it on the parts of educating one's kid that aren't (can't be) done in the schooling process).

Always remember that schooling is only a small (though essential) part of the development of the successful racehorse (or carthorse, for that matter).

[igotworms]

Out of 20-25 foreign teachers at Kajonkiet, only one of them has a legitimate teaching degree. This should set off the alarm bells immediately.

Sure, there are some good teachers without proper qualifications but the main point about Kajonkiet is this: no matter how good the teacher is, they cannot compensate for the shocking lack of resources, guidance, a concrete curriculum or any semblance of common sense when it comes to administration and management.

The foreign and Thai teachers are ridiculously underpaid, overworked and treated as an unvalued commodity. Teachers come and go each symester because of this. It is commom for Thai teachers to physically reprimand students for misbehavior, or for even failing to understand a lesson.

The bilingual curriculum is based upon the Thai Government's national curriculum, translated over to English. The curriculum seems to change each year and the teacher is progressively bombarded by growing paper work.

Although the fees at Kajonkiet are reasonable relative to Dulwich's tuition costs, Kajonkiet is subsidised by the government, but charge a tuition much higher than most bilingual schools in Thailand.

Dulwich hires only qualified teachers that teach a well-established curriculum within a campus that provides amazing resources and facilities. There is no comparison in my books. If you have the financial capability, Dulwich is the only option for a legitimate and recognised primary, secondary and I.B. education in Southern Thailand.

[srisatch]

We have been 'Lost in France' for a while and are now coming back to LOS....but to where? We have two little girls 6 and 4 who need to go to school...frankly we will go and live anywhere in LOS where they can get a good school. Where are they??!!

[chownah]

Igotworms posted, "Out of 20-25 foreign teachers at Kajonkiet, only one of them has a legitimate teaching degree. This should set off the alarm bells immediately. "

I'm assuming by "legitimate teaching degree" you mean a degree in education.

I disagree in regards to 'setting off the alarm bells'. In the US I was advised at university by the counselor in the school of education that is was better to have a degree in the subject you wish to teach than it was to have a degree in education. In addition you must go through their program which includes all of the core classes for the ed. degree but does not require elective courses in an educational specialty. Someone finishing their regimen for the non-degreed track will be knowledgeable in educational psychology, curricululm development, evaluation, policy, governance, and administration....along with direct classroom teaching experience under the guidance of an experienced teacher......but you will not have a degree in education.

[Martin]

Agreed, chownah. Schooling would be immensely better if all teachers did a subject/vocational-preparation degree to equip them to do 'a real job in the real world', did such a job for a couple of years or more, and then came to schools and 'trained whilst working in the classroom', in the way you say.

But it doesn't happen much, and it won't happen a lot whilst school-teaching salaries are so far below what capable people can get in industry etc.

So we will have to go on with the majority of teachers being products of the merely-academic circle (school-as-a-pupil to student-in-a-college to school-as-a-teacher).

It isn't good for the pupils, nor for the teachers.

I have met many good teachers who could have 'hacked it' in the real world but can't get a fair salary out of their school-employers, because those employers know those teachers don't have any other place to go to earn real money.

Actually, I have met a surprising number of good teachers who I am sure could leave teaching and be fulfilled and get much better money; but they lack the insight into industry that would give them the confidence to go there.

If I was looking for a suitable school for my child, the question "How many of your teachers have come to teaching after working for a while in something other than teaching?" would be high on my list of questions to ask. I would be interested to have the answer for ex-Dulwich and for its rival business-competitors.

[Thomas_Merton]

Agreed, chownah.  Schooling would be immensely better if all teachers did a subject/vocational-preparation degree to equip them to do 'a real job in the real world', did such a job for a couple of years or more, and then came to schools and 'trained whilst working in the classroom', in the way you say.

But it doesn't happen much, and it won't happen a lot whilst school-teaching salaries are so far below what capable people can get in industry etc.

So we will have to go on with the majority of teachers being products of the merely-academic circle (school-as-a-pupil to student-in-a-college to school-as-a-teacher).

It isn't good for the pupils, nor for the teachers.

I have met many good teachers who could have 'hacked it' in the real world but can't get a fair salary out of their school-employers, because those employers know those teachers don't have any other place to go to earn real money.

Actually, I have met a surprising number of good teachers who I am sure could leave teaching and be fulfilled and get much better money; but they lack the insight into industry that would give them the confidence to go there.

If I was looking for a suitable school for my child, the question "How many of your teachers have come to teaching after working for a while in something other than teaching?" would be high on my list of questions to ask. I would be interested to have the answer for ex-Dulwich and for its rival business-competitors.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree, in general terms to Chowner’s and Martin's posting, and yet…the best teacher I ever met (best in my eyes, other parents’ eyes and, most importantly, the children’s eyes) taught in the school he went to as a boy – leaving the school to go to college, returning when qualified and ending his career as deputy head teacher.

Whilst not denigrating the value of an academic education, be it principally pedagogic or mainly subject cantered, nor the value of experience outside of the educational system; in such a near art form as teaching (as we say in Lancashire), if you “aint got the nouse”, no amount of training or experience can create a good teacher.

[Goldenbead]

A question for Igotworms, are you a Dulwich (or ex) teacher? You sound very defensive.

I am sorry. I feel that the British curriculum is stagnant and as such, is not the best curriculum around. The IB curriculum is far more progressive and there are other school options coming on line in Phuket very soon. At present, Greenhouse is gaining in popularity since they started a new class for upper primary and middle school students. They have been on the scene in the preschool and kindergarten years for a while now. They are following the IB curriculum and are set to be a force to be reckoned with in Phuket.

The school formerly known as Dulwich does have superior facilities, I will give you that but it is not the be all and end all of education in Phuket.

Kajonkiet is not a bad school and I feel it is unfair to say that most of the teachers are unqualified. Do you know that for a fact??

Education is not all about facilities, it is an ethos, a good way forward for our children and we need to start looking at the big picture and not the little world that was Dulwich.

[Martin]

I don't disagree with what Thomas Merton says.

There is a small minority of people who are born with (or absorb from their best teachers) 'the nouse', and also have the necessary 'intellectual horsepower', and for that small minority the merely-academic circle suffices.

But 'all those fish together would only fill a small pool', as was said in Lancashire.

However in the past, in my boyhood when it was thought that it was sufficient to prepare only 5% of the children for university and the professions, it used to be possible to staff all the highly-academic schools from that pool.

We are in a different ball-game now.

The recruiters for industry now fish in that pool, too.

And the schools now need vastly more teachers than were needed by the schools of way-back-when.

For instance, there are even schools in Thailand that have sixth-forms preparing students for Western Universities instead of those students sailing to England for their Higher School Certificate studies!!!

So parents must shop around to find which schools can promise that they can (and will) put their kids with, at least some, inspirational role-model teachers.

Whether they are looking at ex-Dulwich or elsewhere, they need to be asking some hard questions whilst they are being given their look-around.

[chownah]

A quality education is fostered in the home more than in the school.

[Goldenbead]

A quality education is fostered in the home more than in the school.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Amen!

[Thomas_Merton]

A quality education is fostered in the home more than in the school.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Amen!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[igotworms]

A question for Igotworms, are you a Dulwich (or ex) teacher?  You sound very defensive. 

I am sorry.  I feel that the British curriculum is stagnant and as such, is not the best curriculum around.  The IB curriculum is far more progressive and there are other school options coming on line in Phuket very soon.  At present, Greenhouse is gaining in popularity since they started a new class for upper primary and middle school students.  They have been on the scene in the preschool and kindergarten years for a while now.  They are following the IB curriculum and are set to be a force to be reckoned with in Phuket. 

The school formerly known as Dulwich does have superior facilities, I will give you that but it is not the be all and end all of education in Phuket. 

Kajonkiet is not a bad school and I feel it is unfair to say that most of the teachers are unqualified.  Do you know that for a fact?? 

Education is not all about facilities, it is an ethos, a good way forward for our children and we need to start looking at the big picture and not the little world that was Dulwich.

In terms of Thai bilingual schools in the south (excluding Bangkok), Kajonkiet may be above the standard. The problem with Kajonkiet, when you offer uncompetitive salaries to foreign teachers, you won't attract the cream of the teaching profession.

However, there are good teachers there doing their best with limited resources. But in such a stressful working environment, these good people will only last so long until they seek other work at a school where they're more appreciated and given the right tools to do their job effectively. This problem plagues most Thai schools and is the reason why teachers come and go at ridiculous rates. Thai school administrators are quick to write foreign teachers off as a transient bunch, opposed to looking at themselves and their utter lack of professionalism and ethical standards.

As for the education degree debate, we all know the various types of farangs who come to live in Thailand. Most choose the teaching profession as their only option to remain living here. Of these farangs who go this route, how many do you think are truly dedicated to teaching and are truly willing to learn and develop their teaching skills? As for a teacher with an education degree, you are somewhat guaranteed a level of professionalism and training unmatched by the non-educated teacher.

Teaching is a very hard profession. The more you are prepared, the better you are at it. A simple premise. An education degree provides this essential training. Four years of psycology, science, or history does not. It only takes one year for a person holding an undergraduate degree to obtain an education degree. So, if a teacher was truly dedicated to the teaching profession and only held a undergraduate degree, the logical and ethical step would be to obtain the education degree.

[igotworms]

Igotworms posted, "Out of 20-25 foreign teachers at Kajonkiet, only one of them has a legitimate teaching degree. This should set off the alarm bells immediately. "

I'm assuming by "legitimate teaching degree" you mean a degree in education.

I disagree in regards to 'setting off the alarm bells'.  In the US I was advised at university by the counselor in the school of education that is was better to have a degree in the subject you wish to teach than it was to have a degree in education.  In addition you must go through their program which includes all of the core classes for the ed. degree but does not require elective courses in an educational specialty. Someone finishing their regimen for the non-degreed track will be knowledgeable in educational psychology, curricululm development, evaluation, policy, governance, and administration....along with direct classroom teaching experience under the guidance of an experienced teacher......but you will not have a degree in education.

I agree with you on this. I believe having a 4 year undergraduate degree is a valubale asset to a teacher (and imperative to secondary teachers). However, for a person holding an undergrad degree it only takes one year to get an education degree on top of it (PGCE in the UK). So, the logical step for prospective teachers after obtaining a 4 year education in a field of study (i.e. science, math, history, etc) would be to pursue another year of study on how to effectively teach that subject.

[suzannejames]

All of the discussion above makes for thoughtful reading and consideration.

I've asked before and I'm asking again, especially so in that you all seem to be aware of the diversity of credentials, reputation vs. real instruction, etc.: is their input any of you are able to share regarding secondary level schools?

I've researched and asked questions on many forums, including this one, but so far there have been no responses other than to do my research and to take a look at Chiang Mai.

We are a family of three consisting of me, mom; one son, 8th grade; and my other son, 10th grade.

I know I have do do the assessment of school quality on my own, but opinions are considered, valued and appreciated.

Uncertainties and decisions await us on most fronts. I'd just like some ideas..

Living near the sea will help preserve my sanity. I'm excited, hopeful and somewhat scared. My touchstone is my oldest son who lives in Bangkok.

I apologize if this is off-topic. I'm a bit desperate for absorbing others' thoughts and opinions. Seemingly, you all have experience living in the LOS.

Thanks.

sj