Well I Think He'S Dead.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Just in this past week I drove past two accident sites that were severe, possibly deadly. Both motorcycle drivers.

The latest one was this morning on the Canal Road, with some guy lying dead or comatose on the road, some Farang woman car driver was involved though to be honest it looked more like she stopped to help than that she actually hit him.

The point is how incredibly unsafe traffic is in this country, and how casual/matter of fact the response, even from myself, and also from my daughter who I was driving to school. "Yes dear, I think that was an accident. I think the ambulance will come soon." Says she (4 years old) after inspecting the scene: "I think he's dead already." The discussion continued for a bit, just like we talk about other things we see on the way such as cows in the field or clouds in the sky. "No honey, I think he just fell of his bike, he should have worn a helmet" -- "Well *I* think he's dead!". --"Ok, well either way, it would have been better had he worn a helmet!", etc, etc, etc.

I think when I was 4 years old I would have been beside myself seeing a corpse on the road.

Dangerous place.

Edited July 6, 2010 by WinnieTheKhwai

[sbk]

Tbh, Winnie, these kinds of conversations take place all over Thailand. And yes, its sad that your 4 year old is discussing this so matter of factly. In a way, it reminds me of a conversation with my cook's daughter last year, "What color do you wear in America?" She asked me when I was packing to go visit my family. I told her we wore whatever color we wanted. She seemed ok with the idea but a tad perplexed. Thailand is a different kettle of fish compared to our home countries and kids here grow up so much faster in some ways and yet in other ways are still allowed their childhood.

[apetley]

In my over 45 years in the UK I saw one dead person on the UK roads. A friend killed in a motorcycle accident.

In about 5 years being in Thailand I have seen at least 15 dead bodies at the scene of traffic accidents. I may do alot of driving but that seems a hugely disproportionate figure.

I have been amazed at how relaxed the onlookers appear and how many kids are allowed to stare too. I would never have stood around and let my two youngsters look at the wet patch that was once the head of some motorcyclist shortly after being crushed by a truck.

[FarangCravings]

Tbh, Winnie, these kinds of conversations take place all over Thailand. And yes, its sad that your 4 year old is discussing this so matter of factly. In a way, it reminds me of a conversation with my cook's daughter last year, "What color do you wear in America?" She asked me when I was packing to go visit my family. I told her we wore whatever color we wanted. She seemed ok with the idea but a tad perplexed. Thailand is a different kettle of fish compared to our home countries and kids here grow up so much faster in some ways and yet in other ways are still allowed their childhood.

Not quite correct as RED or Blue can get you killed in Compton LA or any other Gang controlled area in fact in the USA its even more dangerous than Thailand in what colors you wear in certain areas.

[carnac]

He's dead Jim.

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

In my over 45 years in the UK I saw one dead person on the UK roads. A friend killed in a motorcycle accident.

In about 5 years being in Thailand I have seen at least 15 dead bodies at the scene of traffic accidents. I may do alot of driving but that seems a hugely disproportionate figure.

I have been amazed at how relaxed the onlookers appear and how many kids are allowed to stare too. I would never have stood around and let my two youngsters look at the wet patch that was once the head of some motorcyclist shortly after being crushed by a truck.

Almost exactly the same statistics for me coming from the US. it's a battlefield out there and I definitely have some mental images I would like to have erased. I think the Thai people have to detach from that kind of reality as a way to cope emotionally.

Also the Buddhist religion is about the impermanence of life. Young Buddhist monks look at dead and decaying bodies in photographs as part of training to think beyond this existence and physical life.

Maybe the road carnage is necessary to foster that spiritual detachment but it's a real mystery why it persists.

Even given Thailand's relative wealth and development status the roads are really more dangerous than the should or could be.

[Just1Voice]

With 20 years in the Marines, and most of that spent in Recon, I have more than "adequate" training to help injured people in everything from minor accidents to gunshot wounds. Yet, every time I see an accident, and want to stop and try to help maybe save a life, my Thai wife sternly warns me not to do it, telling me that even though I was not the cause of the accident, if I help, and get blood on me, the Thai police will try and find a way to charge me, and even if they don't, then the victim, or his family, will try to throw the blame on me because I'm farang and therefore "rich", and they can get a nice payoff.

It's a sad state of affairs when kindness and humanitarianism is repaid with greed and opportunism.

[cardinalblue]

With 20 years in the Marines, and most of that spent in Recon, I have more than "adequate" training to help injured people in everything from minor accidents to gunshot wounds. Yet, every time I see an accident, and want to stop and try to help maybe save a life, my Thai wife sternly warns me not to do it, telling me that even though I was not the cause of the accident, if I help, and get blood on me, the Thai police will try and find a way to charge me, and even if they don't, then the victim, or his family, will try to throw the blame on me because I'm farang and therefore "rich", and they can get a nice payoff.

It's a sad state of affairs when kindness and humanitarianism is repaid with greed and opportunism.

Your post is kind of funny and sad at the same time...Thai people generally do not help strangers in need. One:, out of incompetence and two: just a detachment not part of family or social circles. This has been well documented. And yes, I know some guy is going to give us an example of a Thai helping a stanger thus invoking inductive reasoning...

The sad part is I think many thais think like your wife if they are involved with a wealthier partner perceived against the Thai norm..I wonder how they draw their conclusions? It is based oh hearing stories of friends, etc or making a specualtion about thai culture and behavior or knowing just how the mechisms of thai society works?

It's sure is an incentive not be be a good samaritan in this culture...

CB

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

it takes a real adjustment. In the US, Canada, Australia and much of Europe there are so called "good samaritan" or "duty to rescue" laws that require coming to a injured or ill persons aide or potentially be charged with a crime.

It's just an exclusion if coming to someone's aid requires risking the rescuers life or safety.

Most people in those cultures don't even think about legal encouragement or even their own safety but it's just part of the culture to act.

It's 180 degrees from that in Thailand. It's not that the people don't care but somewhere along the line they developed differently. Would be interesting to hear a historians view of when, why and how this became the way.

[jayjay0]

In my over 45 years in the UK I saw one dead person on the UK roads. A friend killed in a motorcycle accident.

In about 5 years being in Thailand I have seen at least 15 dead bodies at the scene of traffic accidents. I may do alot of driving but that seems a hugely disproportionate figure.

I have been amazed at how relaxed the onlookers appear and how many kids are allowed to stare too. I would never have stood around and let my two youngsters look at the wet patch that was once the head of some motorcyclist shortly after being crushed by a truck.

Almost exactly the same statistics for me coming from the US. it's a battlefield out there and I definitely have some mental images I would like to have erased. I think the Thai people have to detach from that kind of reality as a way to cope emotionally.

Also the Buddhist religion is about the impermanence of life. Young Buddhist monks look at dead and decaying bodies in photographs as part of training to think beyond this existence and physical life.

Maybe the road carnage is necessary to foster that spiritual detachment but it's a real mystery why it persists.

Even given Thailand's relative wealth and development status the roads are really more dangerous than the should or could be.

You hit it rite on ther head about Buddhism being a part of the reason for there attitude. Also let us remember that most of us come from cultures that tend to hide reality or in some way avoid it. Where I come from it is illigal to ride a bycicle with out a helmet. That is not to say it is not a good idea. The point is we are trained to look on reality as a bad thing. I sometimes watch shows with warnings on them and at the end of the show wonder what the warning was for. Was it for a body covered up with a sheet that when pulled back showed some one who looked like he was asleep.

Also I seriously doubt a four year old has any idea of what death is. I remember when my Father past away my 9 year old brother had a hard time understanding the permanence of it. To many kids it is just a word with out much meaning to them.

[Lizard2010]

Its a sad day when you can not help people.

Plus when it id time to go to wherever ( Heaven or hel_l ) it is sometimes beyond us, we have no control.

[MrBrad]

As a foreign-born white citizen of the USA now living in Chiang Mai I give permission to anybody on this forum to come to my assistance should I wind up lying on the road one day.

Some 10 years ago I was lying on a city street unconscious for I really don't know how long before I awoke in Chang Puak hospital; I'd been hit by a speeding motorcyclist. Only a small toe was broken, but I had other scrapes and bruises. Most amazing of all is that a couple days later the cyclist (who was not hurt at all) came to visit me at my apartment building to make sure I was OK; I'd never met the guy before--or since.

Anyway, I'm not going to sue you and neither is my family; they're some 10,000 miles away. I'd like to think that someone would come to my aide.

[Just1Voice]

As a foreign-born white citizen of the USA now living in Chiang Mai I give permission to anybody on this forum to come to my assistance should I wind up lying on the road one day.

Some 10 years ago I was lying on a city street unconscious for I really don't know how long before I awoke in Chang Puak hospital; I'd been hit by a speeding motorcyclist. Only a small toe was broken, but I had other scrapes and bruises. Most amazing of all is that a couple days later the cyclist (who was not hurt at all) came to visit me at my apartment building to make sure I was OK; I'd never met the guy before--or since.

Anyway, I'm not going to sue you and neither is my family; they're some 10,000 miles away. I'd like to think that someone would come to my aide.

MrBrad....Not a problem! If I see you, or any "farang" for that matter, in that type of situation, I would stop and help, and I doubt if my Thai wife would object to that.

On a more serious note, I don't really know why my wife is so adamant me not helping a Thai. I've tried to talk to her about this, but all she says is that it will lead to trouble and cost me a lot of money. Totally different from what I'm used to. I'm also a licensed CPR Instructor Trainer, and in the U.S., at least in Indiana where I'm from, if I see someone having a heart attack, or other medical problem that CPR could assist in, and I don't help, that person, if they do survive,or their family, if they find out I'm certified, can actually file a law suit against me for "negligence" in refusing to help.

As much as I love this country and the people (for the most part), at times I can only sigh and shake my head at some of the blatant cultural differences that, to me, make absolutely no sense whatsoever. To me it's ironic; I was trained to kill in every conceivable manner, but was also trained to save lives when needed. The first I have no desire to use, and the second I'm prevented from using by a culture that has a twisted perspective to it.

[PhilHarries]

I'm not so sure that story about not stopping and helping as you get blamed isn't just another urban myth.

I have heard it dozens of times, not just in Thailand but in many other countries in the region but I've never heard it first hand from a victim. Nor even from someone who could name the victim, it's always been "someone in the pub told me of a guy he knows etc etc etc".

As for the Thai attitude to death I think most of what we see is a typical reaction to seeing someone they don't know dead in the road. The closer in towards the centre of the circle of friends it is the more extreme the display of emotion.

Not so different to westerners really. Okay we frown on the ghouls stopping to have a gawk at an accident site but we were brought up to respect the dead. But we are less affected the more remote the person was to us.

[Ulysses G.]

I think that this is changing. When I first came to Thailand, it seemed like Thais would usually avoid helping someone who fell down or was in an accident, but in recent years I have seen a number of young Thais helping elderly folks who had fallen off a curb into the street or been knocked over by a motorcycle. 

[Just1Voice]

I'm not so sure that story about not stopping and helping as you get blamed isn't just another urban myth.

I have heard it dozens of times, not just in Thailand but in many other countries in the region but I've never heard it first hand from a victim. Nor even from someone who could name the victim, it's always been "someone in the pub told me of a guy he knows etc etc etc".

As for the Thai attitude to death I think most of what we see is a typical reaction to seeing someone they don't know dead in the road. The closer in towards the centre of the circle of friends it is the more extreme the display of emotion.

Not so different to westerners really. Okay we frown on the ghouls stopping to have a gawk at an accident site but we were brought up to respect the dead. But we are less affected the more remote the person was to us.

I agree that in the 2-1/2 years I've lived here, plus the 30+ years I've been coming, I've never actually KNOWN of that happening and, like you point out, have only heard the "myth", but the one thing I do know for sure....my wife is totally & completely convinced that if I help a Thai I will be blamed for their accident/injuries, and it will cost me a small fortune to get out of it.

[PhilHarries]

I agree that in the 2-1/2 years I've lived here, plus the 30+ years I've been coming, I've never actually KNOWN of that happening and, like you point out, have only heard the "myth", but the one thing I do know for sure....my wife is totally & completely convinced that if I help a Thai I will be blamed for their accident/injuries, and it will cost me a small fortune to get out of it.

In that case you have little choice but to go with the flow and against your judgement and conscience.

I, luckily, have never come across an accident where there were people needing assistance. Thanks to my offshore traning and others I have some idea what to do with injured people but really haven't a clue what I'd actually end up doing.

[mrclough]

Aside from the "urban myth" of helping the fallen etc, I recently did my motorcycle license here in Chiang Mai as it was suggested that it was about time I got around to it.

Off I went and watched a video followed by a multiple choice Q & A test, after this I rode a bike through a few cones then down a plank of wood .... Hey presto - I'd passed !

At no point was there any mention of safety through the whole process.

Now I don't know about Australia, the US or pretty much anywhere else as far as this goes but in the UK before you even start learning to ride a bike the first point covered is safety and the need to be safe! In the UK the CBT allows you to ride limited cc/power output machines on the roads unsupervised and this basic training is far more extensive than anything I've seen displayed in pretty much any motorcyclist over here.

Maybe this thread ought to be more concerned with the lack of awareness of road users rather than their willingness to accept death as just a part of this life?

What ever your opinion, it is still very sad that this happens so often when quite often it could have been avoided.

[amexpat]

My experience has been that when I or another falang lays his bike down in the road there are Thai people immediately helping get the bike and the rider off the road and checking for damage to either. (And no, they don't have their hands out).

Of course I know nothing about anyone else's wife, but some Thai women I know are very certain about a lot of things based on evidence that we wouldn't even consider, e.g. If you ride up to Doi Suthep with your lover, you will break up the next week. Well, sure, it happened with two couples in the last three years... so there you have it.

I hope we get a lot of responses here. I want to know whether this is generally true or urban legend.

.

[hansnl]

I think that this is changing. When I first came to Thailand, it seemed like Thais would usually avoid helping someone who fell down or was in an accident, but in recent years I have seen a number of young Thais helping elderly folks who had fallen off a curb into the street or been knocked over by a motorcycle.

Not too long ago saw some elder lady fall down in a street.

Nobody helped, even the policeman writing parking tickets just looked and went on doing his duty.

Two young girls helped the woman and yelled at the policeman.

He got on his motorbike and just disappeared.

Edited July 6, 2010 by hansnl

[naboo]

I think that this is changing. When I first came to Thailand, it seemed like Thais would usually avoid helping someone who fell down or was in an accident, but in recent years I have seen a number of young Thais helping elderly folks who had fallen off a curb into the street or been knocked over by a motorcycle.   

Not too long ago saw some elder lady fall down in a street.

Nobody helped, even the policeman writing parking tickets just looked and went on doing his duty.

Two young girls helped the woman and yelled at the policeman.

He got on his motorbike and just disappeared.

From your story, it would appear you didn't help either.

[IanForbes]

I agree with Winnie, but you get a bit blasé with all the road accidents in Thailand. However, that doesn't stop me from helping those in need... providing I think I can be of some assistance. I've witnessed a few real nasty ones. Sure glad I wasn't at that nasty one near Lampang last year when that crazy truck driver killed about 20 people coming off work.

[Loaded]

I'm not so sure that story about not stopping and helping as you get blamed isn't just another urban myth.

I have heard it dozens of times, not just in Thailand but in many other countries in the region but I've never heard it first hand from a victim. Nor even from someone who could name the victim, it's always been "someone in the pub told me of a guy he knows etc etc etc".

As for the Thai attitude to death I think most of what we see is a typical reaction to seeing someone they don't know dead in the road. The closer in towards the centre of the circle of friends it is the more extreme the display of emotion.

Not so different to westerners really. Okay we frown on the ghouls stopping to have a gawk at an accident site but we were brought up to respect the dead. But we are less affected the more remote the person was to us.

Not an urban myth.

It happened to me. I stopped after the 3 riders of one motorbike in front of me fell off. I stopped to see if they were OK but I was grabbed and held until a policeman came along. I was taken to Phu Ping police station and spent around 3 hours convincing a group of around 4 police officers (including a member of the ever helpful tourist police) that I wasn't the cause of the accident. Eventually the accuser slipped up and made a monumental contradiction with his story and the police allowed me to leave but not before the tourist policeman asked whether I wanted to 'help' the accuser. By the time I left the accuser had been joined by a group of 6 or 7 friends. I had to walk through this group to my motorbike. It's very dark at that point of Huay Kaew road at night. I got on my bike and rode for my life - I was concerned the group would follow me. The police certainly wouldn't have stopped them. This was around the same time as the samurai attacks. When the original accident happened a machete fell from the accusers motorbike in to the road.

I wrote about this in more detail on another thread and quite a few other posters had similar stories.

[harrry]

it takes a real adjustment. In the US, Canada, Australia and much of Europe there are so called "good samaritan" or "duty to rescue" laws that require coming to a injured or ill persons aide or potentially be charged with a crime.

It's just an exclusion if coming to someone's aid requires risking the rescuers life or safety.

Most people in those cultures don't even think about legal encouragement or even their own safety but it's just part of the culture to act.

It's 180 degrees from that in Thailand. It's not that the people don't care but somewhere along the line they developed differently. Would be interesting to hear a historians view of when, why and how this became the way.

Australia does not have a Good Samaritan Law. If you do not help that is your business. If you do help however youa re liable to use your best efforts and that includes not stopping that help or you may suffer civil penalties.

[Shotime]

"Most amazing of all is that a couple days later the cyclist (who was not hurt at all) came to visit me at my apartment building to make sure I was OK; I'd never met the guy before--or since."

I'm betting he was Canadian.

I've been in similar situations, too. People (Thais) were very helpful and caring.

As to the attitude towards seeing a dead person, what do you expect? I couldn't believe the Thai newspapers showing dead bodies on the front page. It was a first for me. On the whole, the value of human life has diminished drastically.

As to wearing any color you want, who would wear a purple blouse with a pair of green pants? Heaven forbid.

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

it takes a real adjustment. In the US, Canada, Australia and much of Europe there are so called "good samaritan" or "duty to rescue" laws that require coming to a injured or ill persons aide or potentially be charged with a crime.

It's just an exclusion if coming to someone's aid requires risking the rescuers life or safety.

Most people in those cultures don't even think about legal encouragement or even their own safety but it's just part of the culture to act.

It's 180 degrees from that in Thailand. It's not that the people don't care but somewhere along the line they developed differently. Would be interesting to hear a historians view of when, why and how this became the way.

Australia does not have a Good Samaritan Law. If you do not help that is your business. If you do help however youa re liable to use your best efforts and that includes not stopping that help or you may suffer civil penalties.

yeah your right. I was reading the Wiki page about world good samaritan laws and indeed Australia does not have them like the EU or US. I guess I overestimated Aus. in that regard. They seem so progressive in other areas I kind of expected them to. Thanks for the clarification.

Good Samaritan Law Wiki

[Daewoo]

They seem so progressive in other areas I kind of expected them to.

Not sure if it is about being progressive or not... not sure you can legislate 'common sense'... generally I think, if you need help in Australia, someone will help... at car accidents, usually a lot of people will stop and help...

WRT to OP... I guess Thailand is a lot more 'in your face' than Australia... I had my young sons in Thailand in Nov, and was very much aware that we had to be more carefull about what they saw on TV, or the newspaper... if I saw a situation leading towards violence I needed to get them away... also had to keep a much better 'eye on them' than in Australia, for just general safety...

Daewoo

[nikster]

As a foreign-born white citizen of the USA now living in Chiang Mai I give permission to anybody on this forum to come to my assistance should I wind up lying on the road one day.

Some 10 years ago I was lying on a city street unconscious for I really don't know how long before I awoke in Chang Puak hospital; I'd been hit by a speeding motorcyclist. Only a small toe was broken, but I had other scrapes and bruises. Most amazing of all is that a couple days later the cyclist (who was not hurt at all) came to visit me at my apartment building to make sure I was OK; I'd never met the guy before--or since.

Anyway, I'm not going to sue you and neither is my family; they're some 10,000 miles away. I'd like to think that someone would come to my aide.

MrBrad....Not a problem! If I see you, or any "farang" for that matter, in that type of situation, I would stop and help, and I doubt if my Thai wife would object to that.

On a more serious note, I don't really know why my wife is so adamant me not helping a Thai. I've tried to talk to her about this, but all she says is that it will lead to trouble and cost me a lot of money. Totally different from what I'm used to. I'm also a licensed CPR Instructor Trainer, and in the U.S., at least in Indiana where I'm from, if I see someone having a heart attack, or other medical problem that CPR could assist in, and I don't help, that person, if they do survive,or their family, if they find out I'm certified, can actually file a law suit against me for "negligence" in refusing to help.

Do what you think is right. Help when you can. It's not a culture thing, it's a humanity thing.

And yes there are definitely way, way more road deaths/serious accidents than back home. For one, way more motorcycles. Secondly, a very large percentage of riders without helmets. You don't need bad roads or bad driving, those two factors alone will make the road death rate go through the roof. I have seen one or two serious accidents, in both incidents no helmet, and to be honest it just wasn't a big surprise. If I see teenagers (invariably) do really dumb maneuvers on their bikes with no helmets on then you just know there's a very good chance they'll end up dead or seriously injured.

[LJW]

I think that this is changing. When I first came to Thailand, it seemed like Thais would usually avoid helping someone who fell down or was in an accident, but in recent years I have seen a number of young Thais helping elderly folks who had fallen off a curb into the street or been knocked over by a motorcycle.

I don't think it has changed much UG, but maybe your eyesight has changed

[MrBrad]

"Most amazing of all is that a couple days later the cyclist (who was not hurt at all) came to visit me at my apartment building to make sure I was OK; I'd never met the guy before--or since."

I'm betting he was Canadian.

I've been in similar situations, too. People (Thais) were very helpful and caring.

As to the attitude towards seeing a dead person, what do you expect? I couldn't believe the Thai newspapers showing dead bodies on the front page. It was a first for me. On the whole, the value of human life has diminished drastically.

As to wearing any color you want, who would wear a purple blouse with a pair of green pants? Heaven forbid.

• No, he was indeed Thai. I have met a few very considerate Canadians in my life though, I might add.

• As for the color comment, assuming you'd still have heaven forbid a green blouse with a pair of purple pants, these two colors are in balance according to color harmonies. Throw in a bit of orange, too, and it's perfect. From Wikipedia: A triad uses colors at the points of an equilateral triangle (three colors spaced equally on the color wheel). These are sometimes called balanced colors. An example of a triadic scheme could be red, blue, and yellow; green, orange, and purple, etc.