Wife's Bad Debt

[quint9]

Hello all,

This is my first posting here and I need help already. It seems my Thai wife of 2 years left Thailand owing several credit card companies 100K each. She wasn't very honest with me about this when she got here. Now she is worried about being arrested when she enters the country on a visit. Is this a possibility? Who can we contact to find out what her status is with the thai police (imigration)? Does anyone know a Thai lawyer who can help with her problem before it becomes a getting out of jail problem? Thanks

Q9

[Heng]

They'll likely only find her if she attempts to purchase a car or house in her own name in the future. If she avoids this, then she shouldn't have any issues. They can seize her assets (if she has any) though, even if she ignores the court summons (and loses by default) and is out of the country. Seen it happen more than a few times.

[quint9]

Thanks Heng. I intend to make her own up to her debts so that bridges will not be burnt. I would still like to hear any other opinions also.

Q9

They'll likely only find her if she attempts to purchase a car or house in her own name in the future.  If she avoids this, then she shouldn't have any issues.  They can seize her assets (if she has any) though, even if she ignores the court summons (and loses by default) and is out of the country.  Seen it happen more than a few times.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[kayo]

Apparently they can seize assets of your wife´s relatives, though I´m just a bartender...

Hearsay... check it out.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Apparently they can seize assets of your wife´s relatives, though I´m just a bartender...

Hearsay... check it out.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You'd best stick to bartending I'd say.

[BambinA]

Hello all,

This is my first posting here and I need help already.  It seems my Thai wife of 2 years left Thailand owing several credit card companies 100K each.  She wasn't very honest with me about this when she got here.  Now she is worried about being arrested when she enters the country on a visit. 

Q9

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

easiest ..why she just doesnt want to pay 100K back?..just do it , make it 's clear..

Bambi

Edited June 29, 2005 by BambinA

[HarryHacker]

Apparently they can seize assets of your wife´s relatives, though I´m just a bartender...

Hearsay... check it out.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You'd best stick to bartending I'd say.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Totster]

Hello all,

This is my first posting here and I need help already.  It seems my Thai wife of 2 years left Thailand owing several credit card companies 100K each.  She wasn't very honest with me about this when she got here.  Now she is worried about being arrested when she enters the country on a visit. 

Q9

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

easiest ..why she just doesnt want to pay 100K back?..just do it , make it 's clear..

Bambi

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree with Bambi... approach the credit card companies and make payment arrangements, that should put any legal issues off.... the credit companies are normally satisfied if they have payments.

totster

[Tornado]

Hello all,

This is my first posting here and I need help already.  It seems my Thai wife of 2 years left Thailand owing several credit card companies 100K each.  She wasn't very honest with me about this when she got here.  Now she is worried about being arrested when she enters the country on a visit.  Is this a possibility?  Who can we contact to find out what her status is with the thai police (imigration)?  Does anyone know a Thai lawyer who can help with her problem before it becomes a getting out of jail problem?  Thanks

Q9

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not honest with you? that is highly unusual

Have you seen her statements?

[jackr]

Agree with Tornado, see the statements.

[soi lurker]

Hello all,

This is my first posting here and I need help already.  It seems my Thai wife of 2 years left Thailand owing several credit card companies 100K each.  She wasn't very honest with me about this when she got here.  Now she is worried about being arrested when she enters the country on a visit.  Is this a possibility?  Who can we contact to find out what her status is with the thai police (imigration)?  Does anyone know a Thai lawyer who can help with her problem before it becomes a getting out of jail problem?  Thanks

Q9

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not honest with you? that is highly unusual

Have you seen her statements?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[soi lurker]

Your post definately warrants further investigation.........you need to see the evidence that she has racked up the debt..... this is what the last 3 people have suggested you do!..........

[quint9]

Will do gents. I'm sure the statements are in BKK where she left the debt. I'm also pretty sure she is not trying to bilk money from me because I told her from the start that I would not be responsible for her debt just like she is not responsible for mine. Thanks.

Q9

[lopburi3]

I am not sure you can say you are not responsible and have them disappear. Marriage is a joint endeavor so it would be best to get this cleared up as quickly as you can. That said do not believe there is much Banks can do other than use threats but it would be best to confirm these debts and then work out a plan to pay them off as you may well want to have a clean background if/when you return to Thailand. Do not know family status but this is going to effect them (face) even if they have no liability.

[sua yai]

If the legality of credit card debt is the same here as in the UK, the credit card company has absolutely no power over your wife at all. The debt is unsecured.

Happened to me once in the UK after I'd racked up a large debt on my cc here in Thailand. Went back to the UK for a visit and got in touch with them. Although they were understandably upset about my debt - and it was increasing with interest and late payment charges - I told them they either accepted my offer of repayment or they got nothing. Sure my credit rating would have been bad, but i don't need any over here. The company had no charge over my property, bank account or other assets and couldn't take me to court. They're powerless in the UK.

As others have suggested, make sure the debt is bona fide.

[Heng]

Definitely not powerless here. They put real estate up on the auction block all the time here, often with the current "owners" still in their homes. Many of these folks mistakenly believe if they just hold onto their title deeds, they are still the owners. The new owners, all we have to do is go to the land department and a new deed is issued to us. Getting rid of the old owners can be tricky, but can be done as well with polite but firm persistance.

[lopburi3]

Definitely not powerless here.    They put real estate up on the auction block all the time here, often with the current "owners" still in their homes.  Many of these folks mistakenly believe if they just hold onto their title deeds, they are still the owners.  The new owners, all we have to do is go to the land department and a new deed is issued to us.    Getting rid of the old owners can be tricky, but can be done as well with polite but firm persistance. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Believe apples and oranges here as we are talking unsecured credit cards not home mortgage.

[Nordlys]

Hello all,

This is my first posting here and I need help already.  It seems my Thai wife of 2 years left Thailand owing several credit card companies 100K each.  She wasn't very honest with me about this when she got here.  Now she is worried about being arrested when she enters the country on a visit. 

Q9

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

easiest ..why she just doesnt want to pay 100K back?..just do it , make it 's clear..

Bambi

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree with Bambi... approach the credit card companies and make payment arrangements, that should put any legal issues off.... the credit companies are normally satisfied if they have payments.

totster

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah, if by any chance you and your wife live in Thailand again in the future, I'd say she clears the debt RIGHT NOW. I would suggest your wife approaches the card issuing bank now and negotiate the payment even if she can't pay the debt now.

Credit card issuing banks in Thailand (or any other place) will either sell the debt to a company handling NPL or hire a debt collector to find you, and they'll go after you and will do everything they can within the law to make sure you pay.

I had an employee in my company who had 40 - 50K debt from credit card which he ignored and tried to get away with. He had credit card since before he joined our company, but the debt collector somehow found out his employer (us) and filed court action against us to seize 1/3 of his monthly salary, which as an court order we had no choice but to obey. It was a lot of administrational inconvenience for my wife to transfer 2/3 of his salary to his bank account and at the same time to drive half an hour to court every month end to hand the rest of his pay check (court only accepted cash). Credit card interest rate is high, I don't remember how long he left his debt unpaid but with the interest rate, penalty and perhaps service fee for debt collecting company the total amount due was inflated to around B140K. And all this time he's been paying the debt the interest was still accumulating. He left us to work in another company but I'm sure he's still paying the debt now.

In another instance (not credit card debt related), my brother-in-law signed a loan contract with BBL almost twenty years ago when he was still a student to buy a town house in Rayong in the name of his cousin, as a cousin already had a mortgage for another property and the bank didn't give him anymore credit line. Needless to say, his cousin fell in default, unable to pay the mortgage for the 2nd property and my brother-in-law was left with a debt. It was stupid of him in the first place to sign a loan contract for a shopping that is not of his own (but he was very young then and there was a pressure from his grandmother to 'borrow his name'), but what was more stupid of him was he left the matter unattended for almost 20 years despite repeated reminders from the bank, until last year when the bank's lawyer contacted him pressuring him to file personal bankruptcy with court. Being a manager of a well-established farang company and also an owner/director of two of his family businesses (he can no longer run the company as a director and of course no more credit card for 3 years after he is declared personally bankrupt), this was not acceptable for my brother-in-law. The matter went to the court and in the end they have agreed on more than B700K (+ attorney fee) payment in out-of -court settlement for what was originally a B300K debt. For the pas ten years he's been married, he never registered his marriage at amphor and bought everything (cars and condos) in his wife's name (which is also a risky thing to do).

BTW his cousin and his rather wealthy family never paid this amount to my brother-in-law, and needless to say my wife's family don't consider them their relatives anymore.

Edited June 30, 2005 by Nordlys

[Heng]

Definitely not powerless here.    They put real estate up on the auction block all the time here, often with the current "owners" still in their homes.   Many of these folks mistakenly believe if they just hold onto their title deeds, they are still the owners.   The new owners, all we have to do is go to the land department and a new deed is issued to us.    Getting rid of the old owners can be tricky, but can be done as well with polite but firm persistance. 

Believe apples and oranges here as we are talking unsecured credit cards not home mortgage.

Apples and apples Lopburi. Pager bills, mobile phone bills, CAT bills, not paying your credit cards can all get your property (real estate + automobiles) under the jurisdiction of the klrom bangkap kadi. Naturally, a debtor doesn't have anything to lose, nothing will happen. If they do own anything though, it can very likely end up on the auction block. It doesn't usually get that far as for small bills, most people "panom nee" or in other words arrange some kind of payment plan. But for people who think they can beat the system (some do anyway of course) which includes criminals and people who don't know any better, these small cases are usually combined into larger cases and they'll be sent through the system a batch at a time.

[Bilko]

Nearly everyone I know from UK has stitched up the credit card companies before heading off the Thailand, they go back after a few years and nothing happens, just blacklisted from further credit.

I know loads of people who just will never pay them back, what are they going to do, take you to court and get you put in Jail for 6 - 12 Months ?

In Thailand. things seem different.

[jumbo]

I also understood that if you cannot come up with a payment (plan) and you die the debt goes on to your children. Can anybody confirm this??

[bina]

Many of these folks mistakenly believe if they just hold onto their title deeds, they are still the owners. The new owners, all we have to do is go to the land department and a new deed is issued to us. Getting rid of the old owners can be tricky, but can be done as well with polite but firm persistance.

excuse me, OT, but,

is this what happens to all the issaan guys that morgtage their land for bank loans to pay for migrant worker visas?? i've heard of something like this happening but it sounded very not legal (i know, thailand different than israel different than usa etc) .... also, what with people borrowing each others land deeds for loans (they do it all the time in the family i've noticed), people maybe lose track of loans, deeds etc.... how does one ensure that once loan has been paid, the land is indeed theirs again if the land deed is not proof enough?

[Nordlys]

how does one ensure that once loan has been paid, the land is indeed theirs again if the land deed is not proof enough?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think it's just the matter of surrendering the title deed to the creditor without transferring the ownership so the creditor is never the owner of the mortgaged land as long as you're paying back the loan. Like Heng said the creditor can still claim the liablity if the debtor fails to pay the loan even if the creditor doesn't have the title deed, perhaps by having the land department issue a new deed under new title but I think you have to have the court to order the land department to do so.

Edited June 30, 2005 by Nordlys

[BambinA]

I also understood that if you cannot come up with a payment (plan) and you die the debt goes on to your children. Can anybody confirm this??

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think yes... i heard from the Lawyer program in Television

Bambi

[Nordlys]

I also understood that if you cannot come up with a payment (plan) and you die the debt goes on to your children. Can anybody confirm this??

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think yes... i heard from the Lawyer program in Television

Bambi

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think you have to have someone sign the loan contract as a guarantor for the debt to go to someone other than the origianl debtor, whatever the relationship of the guarantor is to the original debtor. When my father asked for O/D for our business here from the bank, they wanted me to sign as a guarantor but my father adamantly refused so I'm free from my company liability as far as bank is concerned. Or am I free from company libability anyway since it's 'company limited'?

Edited June 30, 2005 by Nordlys

[maerim]

The company had no charge over my property, bank account or other assets and couldn't take me to court. They're powerless in the UK.

Why couldn't they take you to court?

Credit card companies take people to court everyday in the UK and they are certainly not powerless how do you think they got to be so big.

They can attach earnings and send in the baliffs if there is anything worth selling so much for being powerless.

[corkscrew]

The company had no charge over my property, bank account or other assets and couldn't take me to court. They're powerless in the UK.

Why couldn't they take you to court?

Credit card companies take people to court everyday in the UK and they are certainly not powerless how do you think they got to be so big.

They can attach earnings and send in the baliffs if there is anything worth selling so much for being powerless.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is also exactly what happens in the US. If you refuse to pay your unsecured debt the creditor brings a civil action and when it gets a judgement it goes after your property (bank account, car, lien on house, % of salary...etc.

Edited June 30, 2005 by corkscrew

[sua yai]

maerim,

I suggest you take a look at the law on unsecured debts in the UK. I know this is slightly off topic, but it relates to my first post.

Under NO circumstances can a unsecured creditor start civil proceedings for a ccj or other order. That's why it's an unsecured loan.

They lent you the money, they take the risk. It's as simple as that.

All I was asking in response to the OP was if it's the same in Thailand.

By the look of other posts, the answer is no.

[maerim]

maerim,

I suggest you take a look at the law on unsecured debts in the UK.

I have sued plenty of people in the UK and won as I don't like working for nothing I have had certified baliffs in to seize goods and chattels when they did not pay their bills.

Would you say rent is an unsecured debt?

What you are saying defies logic, so anyone can borrow money and not pay it back with impunity.

Is that why bankrupt cases are increasing year on year?

I would love to be a customer at your bank, spend, spend someone elses money and not have a care in the world as I would not have to pay it back and there is nothing they can do, get real please.

[Heng]

Many of these folks mistakenly believe if they just hold onto their title deeds, they are still the owners. The new owners, all we have to do is go to the land department and a new deed is issued to us. Getting rid of the old owners can be tricky, but can be done as well with polite but firm persistance.

excuse me, OT, but,

is this what happens to all the issaan guys that morgtage their land for bank loans to pay for migrant worker visas?? i've heard of something like this happening but it sounded very not legal (i know, thailand different than israel different than usa etc) .... also, what with people borrowing each others land deeds for loans (they do it all the time in the family i've noticed), people maybe lose track of loans, deeds etc.... how does one ensure that once loan has been paid, the land is indeed theirs again if the land deed is not proof enough?

There's a loan agreement that goes with each loan (yes, even person to person loans). Often (but not always), the lender will have the loan recipient sign power of attorney to transfer title to the lender. It's written in the agreement that upon default, the lender may transfer the land. If the loan is repaid in full, the signed transfer is moot. These kinds of agreements usually aren't an issue, as typically it doesn't have to go that far. When the debtor is truly out of steam, they'll willingly sign over the collateral and perhaps get additional funds from the lender as if it were just a normal sale (ex. land worth 1 million, principle of 300,000.... they pay off none of the principle, 450,000 in interest.... the borrower happily accepts say another 200,000 and the deal is done.... this is usually for folks with several pieces of land. For folks with just one piece of land, they'll often pay several times the principle in interest and continue to tread water for years and years hoping for a miracle or a falang to come along).