Want To Insulate Ceiling With Batting

[chaihot]

I want to lay insulation on top of the ceiling using the SCG Stay Green 3. I plan to add two 6" thick batts for a total of 12" of insulation on top of my ceiling (between the ceiling and the attack).

The first step is to have all existing electrical connections in the attic checked and wrapped for safety.

It is the second step that is creating problems. I'm guessing that the recessed lighting cans are not made to USA safety standards of "insulation contact" rated. That means that we would need to surround each can with a barrier to prevent the insulation from touching it. A time consuming pain IMO.

I would prefer to do EITHER:

-replace all cans with IC rated cans. However, would anyone even know what these are here in Thailand? And where would be the BEST lighting supply store to go to for this specialized fixture?

or

-replace the cans with external ceiling lights; of course, that leaves a hole in the ceiling, which creates a new problem.

Please don't reply with "don't insulate your ceiling" as some have written before. The insulation is a definite need -- the post is about the lighting.

Thanks

[wpcoe]

I love reading this forum for the things I learn: I had no idea there even *were* insulation-contact-safe lighting fixtures! My house in the USA has sizeable gaps around each lighting can. Maybe I should consider replacing the fixtures and adding a bit more insulation.

Okay, back to the main purpose of this thread: how can he safely insulate his ceiling?

[elkangorito]

I assume that the lamps in your recessed light fittings are no larger than 100W. If so, the following diagram may be of help.

[chaihot]

Yes, unfortunately the use of a dead area around the fixture is what is suggested by everyone in the US as well when the fixture isn't IC rated. Even though the light bulbs are the smallest fluorescent ones we found and give off minimal heat, there is nothing that would prevent someone from changing them to a more dangerous bulb when I wasn't looking.

I broke the news to my wife today. It appears that we will be removing all of the recessed cans and changing to light fixtures that will mount externally and cover the hole that the recessed cans made. I know we have more than 15.

There is no other option I can find.

So it is time to find someone to do the job. We looked at new light fixtures today and left the store disappointed ... actually angry that we didn't like what we saw on display. I want near-instant-on (fluorescent) lights - but so much of what is sold here has such long delays.

And so we now have another project to complete before we can insulate. We are already waiting to get an electrician to wrap and secure ALL of the electrical cables in the attic .....

And some people LIKE doing this stuff.

[jackr]

How about knocking up a bunch of gypsum boxes and have the lacky bung em over the lights? Gypsum has fair thermal properties and a sheet of 9mm elephant is only around 150 baht; 4m railing (to fix together) about 40 baht. If you really want to go ott, there's also gypsum board with the reflective sheet for another 100 baht or so. A lot cheaper than replacing/refixing lights.

[longball53098]

The installation info related to installing fiberglass bat insulation recommends leaving a space around all downlights and any other electrical device that emits heat. I would think a few inches is good and open on the top so heat will escape.

I will add this from a web site I read:

How to Install Attic Insulation:

This is a very straightforward job, easily done by one person.

1. Begin at one end of the attic space, being careful to keep your weight on the joists if they're open.
2. Unroll the insulation or lay the rectangular batts carefully between the joists, taking care not to compress them.
3. Butt the ends of the batts or rolls together as tightly as you can without buckling the insulation; any gaps will severely compromise the insulation's R value. No staples are necessary; gravity holds it in place.
4. Trim with a utility knife where needed.

It's very important to keep the insulation at least 3 inches away from any recessed fixtures or wiring - that could pose a serious fire hazard.

Edited July 14, 2010 by longball53098

[elkangorito]

I assume that the lamps in your recessed light fittings are no larger than 100W. If so, the following diagram may be of help.

This information comes from AS/NZS 3000:2007, which are the latest wiring rules in Australia (see pic in post #3).

DO NOT attempt to do any dodgy work with plaster board. Follow the rules & you'll be completely ok.

Edited July 14, 2010 by elkangorito

[bankruatsteve]

Well, just to throw it out there... if we assume that the recessed lights are using flourescent bulbs (it's hard to find incandescent these days so good assumption?) - why worry about heat from that? Insulation is supposed to be fire resistant anyway and if you could torch anything from a flourescent bulb it would be interesting to know. What's the concern?

[craigt3365]

The insulation we had done in our house in Nevada is the kind that is blown in. It is about 12" deep and covers everything. You can't see anything sticking up through it. I am guessing it is fire resistant and the cans are the type approved for this? I am about to do this to our house here also....

[harrry]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/feb/15/loft-insulation-australia

I would check very carefully

[Samuian]

Go LED and your problem is history!

[craigt3365]

Yeah...that is what our contractor told us. He said there are ones out that can change colors, dim and be controlled by a remote. Pretty cool...but how expensive are they?

[chaihot]

I posted previously that we were going to change the lights from recessed to external and that is still then plan. However, after looking more at the way the electrical was run in this house (only 3 years old), I am considering a complete RE-WIRE of every electrical run. The lights will still have to be changed though.

A contractor is coming out today to review our situation and begin a quote on this project. It would include all cabling in conduit and boxes but I don't know what else yet.

It would occur in preparation for the change to 3-phase.

[jackr]

This information comes from AS/NZS 3000:2007, which are the latest wiring rules in Australia (see pic in post #3).

DO NOT attempt to do any dodgy work with plaster board. Follow the rules & you'll be completely ok.

Whatever are you on about? Gypsum is non-combustible and would do a good job of separating lights and insulation.

Rules laid down by Oz

[T_Dog]

This is probably a dodgy suggestion too, but how about buying several aluminum cooking pans from the local market and securing them above each fixture? It would create a nice air gap, and the aluminum would distribute the heat well. We had blown in insulation in the USA and they put in some commercial versions, but they sure didn't look much different than cooking pans. You can get them almost a meter in diameter.

[longball53098]

Why waste the time, energy and money fitting something to the lights. If they aren't rated to be covered by insulation just leave a 3 inch or more space around them and don't cover them. Not much labor involved for the insulation person to do this. And then you never have to worry about this no matter what light bulbs you may ever use in the future. If you add any sort of "homemade" invention to hold the heat you may be exceeding some rating for that light can. Could result in premature failure of bulbs due to too much heat or causing the fixture itself to fail due to higher than normal temps.

[cheshiremusicman]

Why waste the time, energy and money fitting something to the lights. If they aren't rated to be covered by insulation just leave a 3 inch or more space around them and don't cover them. Not much labor involved for the insulation person to do this. And then you never have to worry about this no matter what light bulbs you may ever use in the future. If you add any sort of "homemade" invention to hold the heat you may be exceeding some rating for that light can. Could result in premature failure of bulbs due to too much heat or causing the fixture itself to fail due to higher than normal temps.

Have you considered having the 'Spray on Polyurethane Insulation' on the underside of the roof tiles instead of laying layers of 'Fibreglass insulation'. At least with this you also get a waterproof lining and the tiles will never be moved by storms etc plus it gives added security from break-ins via the roof.

I am also comtemplating laying insulation in the roof for heat insulation or I might go down the 'Spray route'depending on the costings

With regard to the 'heat' which might accumulate in the 'downlighters', I would think that the previous suggestion of covering them topside with a container of a reasonable size would more than cover the problem. The only 'downlighters' that I know of that give off a tremendous amount of heat are the 'Halogen' type and I feel sure that you are not intending using these. You can buy many 'Food containers with disposable lids' that will withstand a awful lot of heat and are cheap and would do the trick. If they are marked for microwave use then they will be more than adequate for the purpose and this is probably what I will use.

LED lighting is obviously the 'total' answer, but I don't know what the cost of these are at the moment, but I intend to investigate and fit if I find them 'affordable' taking into account that they will probably outlast me.

[craigt3365]

I would love to hear from someone who did the spray on insulation on the underside of the roof. I have one friend who did this and is not happy. Can remember the reasons, but will try and contact him and find out...