Weed Control, Any Ideas?

[SnareBear]

Do you have any good ideas on how to control weed? Ive got 8 Rai of land, half of it is an orchard with newly planted trees. Weed grows at an amazing speed now in the rainy season. Must cut it once a week and it is very time consuming. I use a "weed wacker" and it takes me two days to cut all.

Some ideas:

1. Make the land more smooth, throw out stones, and buy one of those mowers you can ride, like a small tractor.

2. Use chemicals to kill off the weed. Doesnt feel so good, Im afraid those toxins will get into my fruit later.

3. Plant something really fast growing that will overshadow the weed so it doesnt grow so fast. What are good candidates? Rubber trees? Bamboo? Hemp?

4. Cover the ground with something similar to mulch so the weed dodesnt get any sunlight. What to use?

5. Just let it grow to a jungle and cut it once every two months.

6. Pave the whole thing over with concrete...

Im leaning towards #5. You have any good advice?

Edit: I want to take care of this on my own, no hiring of locals coming in to cut every week.

Edited July 11, 2010 by SnareBear

[Foreverford]

Use sun hemp (pah teung) as a ground cover. It will help occlude other weeds from growing up and then seeding. Disc it back into the ground when then flowers start to appear and plant it again. To benefit the most scatter some manure in the area (if there haven't been cattle or kwai on the land before you planted your trees) so then the hemp will take the nitrogen from the atmosphere and fix it on its roots. when you disc it in you will have a terrific source of necessary nitrogen for your trees. It grows extremely fast and germinates very easily. Depending on different factors you will need to cut it or put it under in a few months time. been using it on the rice farm and it has eliminates a bunch of unwanted guests. Rice straw is a very inexpensive and abundant form of mulch that you could use to mulch with but probably won't be available until after harvest now. Choke Dee

[BAYBOY]

<BR>    Have the same problem. Th weed/grasses grow so fast that to keep low one is always cutting them back. To leave them makes for a major job. To spray with something like Roundup over such a large area is far too costly. <BR>    This sun hemp sounds interesting.<BR>    A question. can you cut it as it is growing ? To disc it in would be difficult as my fruit trees are close together and have klongs between every 2 rows of trees. No room for a tractor to do the discing, without damaging the trees.<BR>    A possible thought would to spray roundup around the trees and plant sun hemp down the space between the rows and keep it under control by cutting. Could possibly disc that area with a smaller tractor or a cultivator. Possible?<BR>   Are sun hemp seeds  freely available?<BR><BR>BAYBOY<BR> 

[drtreelove]

I think FFord's advise is right on! I might add that there are other legume cover crops (green manure) available that serve a similar purpose. Bayboy if you can't disk or rototill, just cut and leave lay as mulch. In fact there is a whole school of thought on no-till orchard farming; especially within the tree's root zone (which can extend well beyond the dripline) where discing or rototilling disrupts the fine absorbing roots near the surface and sets the tree back on water and nutrient uptake. You could safely till the open areas between young trees until the root zones start to spread as the trees mature. Sun hemp, black beans, jack beans and others used to be available free at the regional Land Development Dept offices, but I haven't looked into it for a few years. Other members may be up to date on availability.

Snarebare, it's not likely that herbacides will end up in your food product in any significant concentration (unless you get really wild with the spray wand) but they do leach into the groundwater and wash into the waterways and the ocean, so minimal or no use is more environmentally responsible. Letting grasses and other weeds grow up will deplete nitrogen and deprive your trees, as opposed to the growing of legumes that fix nitrogen as Ford has wisely suggested. Mulch if you can get it affordably, it's such a good thing for so many reasons. But keep the mulch away from direct contact with the tree trunks, and don't let local workers pile up mulch or soil against the trunks; in spite of popular local opinion it can be harmful to the trees. Don't take 'mai pen rai' for an answer. don

[drtreelove]

We should be clear, the cover cropping will not elilminate your weed problem, but it will help to manage significantly and certainly help build soil organic matter. Here's from an old article:

"I recently (October 1^st, 2005) seeded Jack beans on about 8 rai of mixed orchard and field land at the recommended rate of 8 to 10 kg per rai (1 rai = 1600 square meters). I couldn’t get a tractor in to disc the land first, so I seeded directly on to the bare orchard land and into the existing grasses and brush. We had a nice rain that night and the seeds germinated within a day. I cut the existing brush and let it fall on top of the bean seeds as a mulch. Now, 10 days later the plants are leafy green and 6 to 8 inches tall poking up through the cut brush. "

From Land Dept: "Seeding rate for black beans is 5kg per rai, grow for 60 days to flowering, then plow in and wait a minimum of 15 days before preparing seed bed for next crop. For paddy land during wet season use Sesbania rostrata, also available here. "

If you decide to use an herbacide on all or part of your property, Round Up (Glyphosate) is probably the lesser of the evils compared with Paraquat or other highly toxic material.

[SnareBear]

Foreverford, drtreelove,

Thanks a lot for the replies! I will try to find some cover crop like that and try with a Rai or two.

It sounds like I only have to throw the seeds directly on the ground, no planting required? Is it that easy?

60 days of growing and then cut down and let be as mulch, and then start over 15 days later. What maintenance is to be expected of the beans / sun hemp? I guess there will still be some weed competing with them, but I hope it is so little I can leave it be. 8 Rai is a huge area if you need to go over it and pull weeds by hand every week.

There is one type of weed I really hate and unfortunately I have lots of it: its covered with tiny thorns all over and it sticks to everything and will scrape up your skin too. If left alone it grows to about 6 ft tall and the thorns get really large at that point. Stems are very tough and initially it kind of grows parallel with the ground making it hard to cut. Some kind of "super weed". Even banana is hard to get rid of. Tried to just cut it a few times but it keeps coming back. Then dug down to remove the root, to discover that it grows way deep and is hard to remove.

I have one funky plant that is a weed, but its so beautiful I'll let it stay, see attached picture.

Edited July 11, 2010 by SnareBear

[Foreverford]

You can't please all the people all the time or something like that... but really you may not be able to get 8 rai perfect the first year or two but we are suggesting a way that you can eliminate your problem and improve the land (the alternative to spraying lots of poison). The hemp grows very fast at it appears the jack beans do also (I have no experience with the jacks). If you can clear a small area and plant the seeds I think you will be better off, as the cover crop will grow quickly and occlude some of the nasty plant seeds from germinating. Discing can be the preferred method of incorporating the green material into the soil as it will help increase tilth and give you another seed bed to continue green manure planting. When you cut you will give some weeds an opening to thrive. Plant your entire plot with the cover and each time try to concentrate on a small area to experiment in different methods of the process. If you can till (by any manner) some of your orchard you will see if this is an effective way to eliminate your unwanted weeds. The best solution will probably be a combination of methods, mulch, green manure and manual weeding or tilling in problem areas. The key, as you know, will be to keep the most pernacious of the nasties from seeding so be attentive to the plants cycles and probably invest in a good weed wacker and don't give up the hoe. Choke Dee

[drtreelove]

You can't please all the people all the time or something like that... but really you may not be able to get 8 rai perfect the first year or two but we are suggesting a way that you can eliminate your problem and improve the land (the alternative to spraying lots of poison). The hemp grows very fast at it appears the jack beans do also (I have no experience with the jacks). If you can clear a small area and plant the seeds I think you will be better off, as the cover crop will grow quickly and occlude some of the nasty plant seeds from germinating. Discing can be the preferred method of incorporating the green material into the soil as it will help increase tilth and give you another seed bed to continue green manure planting. When you cut you will give some weeds an opening to thrive. Plant your entire plot with the cover and each time try to concentrate on a small area to experiment in different methods of the process. If you can till (by any manner) some of your orchard you will see if this is an effective way to eliminate your unwanted weeds. The best solution will probably be a combination of methods, mulch, green manure and manual weeding or tilling in problem areas. The key, as you know, will be to keep the most pernacious of the nasties from seeding so be attentive to the plants cycles and probably invest in a good weed wacker and don't give up the hoe. Choke Dee

Or get a goat, or three.

[bannork]

Foreverford, drtreelove,

Thanks a lot for the replies! I will try to find some cover crop like that and try with a Rai or two.

It sounds like I only have to throw the seeds directly on the ground, no planting required? Is it that easy?

60 days of growing and then cut down and let be as mulch, and then start over 15 days later. What maintenance is to be expected of the beans / sun hemp? I guess there will still be some weed competing with them, but I hope it is so little I can leave it be. 8 Rai is a huge area if you need to go over it and pull weeds by hand every week.

There is one type of weed I really hate and unfortunately I have lots of it: its covered with tiny thorns all over and it sticks to everything and will scrape up your skin too. If left alone it grows to about 6 ft tall and the thorns get really large at that point. Stems are very tough and initially it kind of grows parallel with the ground making it hard to cut. Some kind of "super weed". Even banana is hard to get rid of. Tried to just cut it a few times but it keeps coming back. Then dug down to remove the root, to discover that it grows way deep and is hard to remove.

I have one funky plant that is a weed, but its so beautiful I'll let it stay, see attached picture.

The weed you're describing is almost certainly mimosa ต้นไมยราบ dton mai ya rap in Thai.To get rid of it you'll have to plough the field at least 2 times.I used to dig it up with a spade(the Thai jorp จอบ), and burn it with relish, but it always came back. I didn't want to go the insecticide route, only regular ploughing keeps it under control.

Geologists say the plant is extremely sensitive to earth movements and can detect earthquakes far away, but it's a hardy s.o.b.!

[JurgenG]

Or get a goat, or three.

Are you serious ?

I've got a couple of small parcels of land with sharp slope and a lot of stones therefore difficult to maintain. There are of no use but I like to keep things nice and tidy and I was thinking to keep a couple of goats there. Neighbors told me it was not suitable for our area. But then I learned long ago that in Thai "not suitable" or "not possible" usually means nobody has tried it before. Does anybody has experience in this matter and where to find these goats ?

[slapout]

Contact Watersedge, he has goats out on work detail and can probably give needed info.

[drtreelove]

"It sounds like I only have to throw the seeds directly on the ground, no planting required? Is it that easy?"

This is not a preferred method and unless you seed with sprinkler irrigation or rain assured you may lose a large percent of seeds. It's always better to get the seeds under the soil surface if possible.

[teletiger]

You'll find, if you keep up with the weed whacker, that the only plants coming back will be grasses. Leave what you cut as a mulch. If the trees are mature enough, then livestock keep it all down well. One of my neighbours has a lawn in his mango orchard.

I'm just now putting in 1 rai of banana and papaya and until it matures and shades itself it's hard work. At the moment, here, it's raining every other day and weed growth is mile-a-minute. Good luck.

Regards.

[Loom]

We tried roundup 2 years ago partially on advice that the prickly weeds would never come back. It worked well until the next rainy season but the prickly weeds just came back.

We decided not to use roundup due to potential health hazards and cost. I also wasn't around when the stuff was applied but it ended up killing some grass that I would have liked to keep and some smaller trees.

So it's back to the weed whacker.

I'll try to experiment with beans or sunn hemp until the shade from trees starts to keep things down a little better. Ideally, tree litter (unless it gets burned when I'm not around) and shade will do away with the need to use a weed whacker more than once a year or so.

[Pond Life]

The spikey weeds you describe could be one of two types I can think of.

They are both Bastards, but they are also both nitrogen fixers !

I sometimes get the weird tree things, I seem to remember being told the center of the stem is edible.

[WatersEdge]

I'm coming into this discussion about a month late,

but now know why drtreelove messaged to ask about my goats.

The crawling sticker plant has already been described as a Mimosa,

as near as I can quickly Google,

specifically Mimosa diplotricha

which is just about impossible to control,

once it is established as a devilish barrier of thorny bramble,

but goats are not hindered by it,

and they eat it to the ground.

Goats will browse it so aggressively that they will kill it.

The weird spotted plant, not a tree, in the photo

is one the goats won't touch for any reason.

It will grow in perfect peace right in the middle of the goat corral

People do eat it, but I believe they cook the toxin out of it.

I think it is a relative of Taro.

The toxin might be a cyanide like cassava

The main purpose of my reply was the strengths and troubles of goats.

I have Alpines mainly,

after an experiment to add Anglo Nubians just hasn't worked.

Anglo Nubians require better attention than my operation affords.

While the Alpines are very rugged little survivors.

Anglo Nubians are also favored by our thieves,

which has unfairly reduced their numbers.

The one Alpine / Anglo Nubian cross is an amazingly vigorous fast growing little beauty.

Goats are definitely not for everyone.

I admire them in spite of the occasions

when I threaten to murder them all in a fit of rage.

I now have a herd of nearly 70,

mostly female

as I sell all young males as they reach 30 kg.

I don't maintain a designated herd sire,

as the young males are well able to breed at less than 30 kg.

This means that the gene pool is constantly shuffled slightly,

as no one buck every breeds more than a portion of the total female number

in his brief duration

and he never breeds his full sister as females develop after males.

I have more Customers than goats,

having to turn regular buyers away,

when no male is 30 kg

The main points:

1. Two meters high shade cloth fence

They first require 2 meters of shadecloth on whatever other fence you already have.

I have 6 strands of barbed wire on concrete posts,

which goats meander in and out of

as though it's for some other purpose.

I first put 1 meter of shade cloth,

and it held them until they really wanted to get in.

Then the half grown goats discovered that if they crouched down,

pointed their nose at the 0.30m gap between barbed wire above the shade cloth,

and followed their nose through as they jumped,

they'd fly right through the fence.

The half grown animals demonstrated the method to the old ones,

and soon the fence again meant nothing.

I added the additional meter above.

That holds them well,

but now they are working on how to work the gap

between the two bands of shade cloth.

and of course they will look for an opening below as well.

It is actually funny in the midst of horribly enraging,

to watch an entire herd of goats

run to a hole newly opened under a fence,

and follow each other out in single file,

for no other reason than the hole is there,

and everyone is doing it.

Once they get out,

look around and find it not a bit better on the other side,

then they all come back inside.

This is a good example of the general insidious nature of goats.

We now take nothing for granted,

we build a corral,

then just watch how they escape it for a few days,

until we find that they don't get out for any reason

2. Rainy Season sickness

Goats hate water of any kind.

Yes, they drink, but only from a still water surface

If you spray them with a hose,

it's to them torturous as if you'd given them a beating.

It's actually the perfect goat disciplinary teaching tool.

They will not voluntarily walk in mud or standing water,

they will avoid even damp soil if there's a dry option.

The reason for this is that their hooves are extremely sensitive to foot rot.

We have to watch our animals very closely in rainy season,

and at the first sign of limping,

pull the animal aside and drench the hoof in iodine ointment.

In just a few days left untended, it will become a rotted stench,

destroying the whole foot,

and the infection killing the animal.

They are very prone to pneumonia during rainy season.

We watch the herd very closely, and give a quick shot of Amoxycillin at the first sign of cough.

If pneumonia gets established in a herd, it spreads animal to animal very quickly,

and you will lose a lot of animals.

You must treat the first animal who first coughs,

then the whole herd will remain well.

They are happiest on sand, rocks, steep inclines, river bank tree root,

and of course, hot open dry dusty fields.

If turned out onto open farm fields in dry season,

they will browse happily for months,

finding every little blade and leaf dry or alive.

3. Shelter and Campfire

At night they want an open wall dry roof shelter,

and they prefer a smoky fire to gather about.

They will gather so closely that you might think their hair will singe,

but they just like heat in general.

You must steadily build up the soil into a mound where the fire is built,

because they will eat the dirt and ash to get the Potassium

If the fire is in a depression,

then baby goats will lie near the fire,

and when big goats jostle for position nearer the fire,

the little ones will be knocked down into the fire and be killed.

They don't seem to fall up into the fire.

4. Salt Block

They need steady access to a lick block.

A simple thing, but they will do poorly without a ready source.

5. Likes and Dislikes

There are certain crops they will not bother.

All Eggplant including Makua

Radish

Other crops they will pursue until the final sprig is consumed.

Banana

Okra

Corn

Squash, Cucumber, Pumpkin

Bean

Peanut

Morning Glory

Roselle leaf, they will strip every leaf off the bush,

but the bush will completely grow back in 30 days

They are not interested in the seed pods or calyx.

Some trees they will browse aggressively,

eating all leaves below 2 meters

standing on their hind legs to bend branches down so as to nibble off the leaves.

Mango, they love leaves but won't touch the bark

Leucaena leucephala, they will also eat the bark, killing small stand alone trees

Trees growing in clumps are safe because the bark can't be chewed entirely around.

Ficus, they will eat dry leaves and all figs that fall from the tree.

The wise old mother goats will loiter under a big ficus waiting for treats to fall.

Surprisingly they enjoy Castor leaf,

without the expected toxicity problems.

Same for fresh green Cassava leaf,

which is supposedly deadly to ruminants because of the Prussic acid.

My goats eat it in modest amounts with no ill effect

Their all time favorite grain is whole kernel corn.

You can scatter a bucket over dry ground,

and they will search out and pick up every last kernel.

They do well on Napier grass Pennisetum purpureum.

They like the tender shoots of Miscanthus gigantus,

the huge fast growing bamboo-like rhizome grass.

They will control a heavy overgrowth of Miscanthus,

bending and breaking the large stalks,

then browsing the fresh shoots,

reducing the mighty Miscanthus to a never maturing little ground crawler

They will eat Vetiver grass when it's small, but will not touch it after coarse.

So, to address the original topic of goats controlling the weeds on 8 rai.

They will control the plants they like, and leave the ones they don't like trampled down to a walkable carpet

Goats are extremely social creatures...1 goat isn't a goat at all.

In the herd their hierarchy is perfectly adjusted

so that every animal knows the structure.

It takes a long time for two herds thrown together,

to work out a new combined structure.

There are brutal casualties in the process.

They will function as two separate herds in the same location for a while.

[JurgenG]

Thank you very much for your very instructive post..

I think goats are exactly what we need but I'll wait I retire full time there (if I ever do) to try to raise some. The family is not even able to cut grass on a regular basis, I don't see how they will be able to take care of goats and I will hate to see them dying (the goats, not the family) because they wasn't take care of properly.

[WatersEdge]

Hi JurgenG,

Goats certainly require an active mentality.

If the caretaker is merely a neutral mind,

goats are guaranteed to all be dead the first year.

The learning curve for my men was very steep in the first year.

and we lost some animals.

But they have always taken their work unusually serious,

so they learned because they personally wanted to know,

not because I tried to thread information into their heads.

Now after two years they are very good at it,

so the goats thrive.

A baby goat was born without fully formed hind legs this year,

mainly without feet

and I told the Foreman that she was going to be a lot of extra work,

if she lived past the first week,

so go ahead and kill her quick and merciful.

He immediately objected...NO, I'll look after her!

Fine with me, but nothing here get's much special attention.

Well, six months later she gets about mainly on her front legs,

which have become very muscular

quite a curious adaptation of forward motion

All because the Foreman takes a personal interest

in the animals under his care

which extends even to the babies born without feet

I'm happy to say that my tough farm men are emotionally attached to the exasperating goats,

which is the core secret to the goats' thriving.

One more important point on goats.

It requires a total herd of around 300 to economically justify a full time dedicated herdsman

If a worker does other things as he tends the goats,

he will be frequently distracted from farm work as he runs off to solve a goat crisis.

[JurgenG]

I can completely relate to these values. As a kid, I used to spend all my holidays in the family farm. It was dairy farm and we also raised pigs, chicken, rabbit, pigeons ... for meat. My uncle was a huge fierce guy, not exactly the sensible kind, but will never hesitate to give you a severe beating if he sees you mistreating an animal. I always remember that day when I saw him saving some milk in a small cup and putting the cup in a safe place for the new kitten to drink, then going back swearing like a sailor to take care of the rest of the work.

Unfortunately I haven't find so far these kind of value in Thailand.

But I'm still optimistic ....