Prostitution : Is It Wrong To Pay For Sex ?

[Ulysses G.]

In the absence of a point I'll assume this is a comment against prostitution.

I was answering a question and have no problem with voluntary sex workers. You really should read some of the proceeding thread before commenting - mistakenly - on just one post.

[GuestHouse]

So I take it we now accept that forced prostitution is alive and well in Thailand, and not a Myth?!

One case I've linked to clearly states that the women (sorry they were minors, so girls) were forced into prostitution with Foreign customers - So we can't hide behind the 'Ah but that's only the local trade, can we?!'

Edited July 20, 2010 by GuestHouse

[Ulysses G.]

How about 99% local men and did the foreigners even have any idea that the girls were not working willingly?

[moe666]

I have been coming to Asia since 1963 Japan, Philippines, Korea, Hong Kong, Vietnam, Taiwan, Maynamar, laos, Cambodia, and Thailand, guess what prostitution is and has been well and alive in all the mentioned countries. I donot a have a solution for this problem as none of the other posters I have read.

I have no problem paying a woman for sex.

[MB1]

I take it we now accept that forced prostitution is alive and well in Thailand, and not a Myth?!

Some do, but it's obvious that some refuse to accept that human trafficking, forced prostituiton, sexual slavery, under age sex workers in brothels or underground activities and paedophilia still exists in Asia/Thailand and also the Western World..

Come on guy's, and also any women on this forum who disbelieve, it IMO is still happening, and press reports recently report it's still happening, it don't matter where the people come from who are forced to do the above mentioned, it's wrong....IMO.

I've said earlier that IMO a woman who of her own free will participates in Prostitution, then I have no problem with it, but if your forced against your own free will then it's wrong.

It's alive and kicking, and for those who disbelieve, do you remember a group called "SIMPLE MINDS".!...

Edited July 21, 2010 by MB1

[IanForbes]

Let me make some comparisons and tell me if I didn't pay for a woman's company when I was married.

When Maria came into my life it was second marriage for both of us. She had a job when we first met, but the government shut it down a short time later. After that she did not work except for a dozen small businesses that I financed for her. Before any of the businesses became successful she quit and started another. They varied from hair stylist, to doing nails, to selling jewelry, to selling Amway goods, and then running a day care for children. In each case I paid for the start up costs and kept things going, including doing the accounting. I know what the costs were. I put up with the constant career changes because I understand that not all careers suit everyong equally. One of her friends had a successful day care business and Maria though she would like that. It looked like a smart idea because I knew her friend was making a good income from her day care business. But, we needed a larger home than the nice little one I already owned and that was perfect for just two people.

So, I sold the small home and took out a big morthgage for a larger home in a better location, specifically so she could run the day care. The business was a success from the start and the location was great. But, Just before the day care started making money she turned it over to her daughter who only lasted another year with it before she also quit. Then, I was stuck with a big house we didn't need with a mortgage I didn't want and no income to pay for it. The whole thing cost me a lot of money. During that time, I also helped out her two adult children in trying to get them careers. I also bought Maria two new cars that her son prompted destroyed. Fortunately, the insurance (which I paid for) covered most of the damage costs.

When her adult son got into the drug scene I was naive in thinking I could help. I had to buy him out of a rental home that he destroyed, and he moved in with us. !0 months after he moved in she moved out and left her son with me. A short time after that I had to get the police to get her son out of my home because he was smashing it in fits of rage. A couple months after that she filed for divorce and wanted half of everything. Over the 7 years we were together she had contributed nothing other than her body and her company. When we finally parted she walked away with half of what I had worked all my life for. We probably had sex about 3 or 4 times a week... about what I get now when I'm in Thailand. I don't want to hear all the usual feminazi claptrap about looking after the home for me. I did all the cooking and the clean up afterwards when we were together, and I did all the yard work. She contributed by doing the laundry and the lnterior house cleaning. I could have paid Molly-Maid house cleaning for that.

I put up with all that because I truly was in love with the lady and would have done anything for her. Ienjoyed her company and we had some great times together, but If I were to divide all the times we made love together into what it cost me financially it would come to far more than I've ever paid for prostitutes. Yes, the sex was mostly better (but not always) and for the good times we had together it was worth it to me. But, don't tell me I didn't pay for her company. And, it wasn't a lot different than the few special ladies that visit me now on a regular basis.

[BRichards]

Nothing is ever free excvept a good fling here and there. Marriage is way more expensive than a prostitute.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

How about 99% local men and did the foreigners even have any idea that the girls were not working willingly?

Sorry, but that's exactly the point I was making earlier and that everyone skipped over: Indeed you DONT know they work willingly. The next obvious question: Now that you know that you don't know, does this bother you?

And I never buy into this idea of segregation between the wholesome tourist trade vs the evil local trade. If there's a myth anywhere to be found then there's one. (The tourist trade isn't that good (or that segregated from the rest when it comes to human resources) and the local trade isn't that evil, not the vast majority of it anyway) This is not something anyone can hide behind. Also keep in mind that the vast majority of voluntary, consenting sex workers work in the local trade, and PREFER it.

Edited July 21, 2010 by WinnieTheKhwai

[BRichards]

willingly or not they are there and they are going to experience the good or bad until they decide for themselves for a better life. Not every street or high paid escort woman are forced into it. many people are working in slave jobs and they aint forced but have to in order to buy food.

[Ulysses G.]

you DONT know they work willingly

If you steer clear of the Thai brothels and stick with more upmarket venues, the chances of meeting some one who has not volunteered for the job is lower than meeting a yellowshirt who supports Thaksin. Edited July 21, 2010 by Ulysses G.

[TAWP]

So to the ones harping on about forced workers, how large of a segment do you think it is? 1%? 5%? 10%?

And why should we argue the clear super-minority when we in all other cases seem to argue the stereotypes or average person?

No-one here is arguing in favour of forced sex-workers, so it is really just a red herring.

Edited July 21, 2010 by TAWP

[Ulysses G.]

I would guess that nowadays 1% would be far more than the true percentage.

[MJP]

So I take it we now accept that forced prostitution is alive and well in Thailand, and not a Myth?!

One case I've linked to clearly states that the women (sorry they were minors, so girls) were forced into prostitution with Foreign customers - So we can't hide behind the 'Ah but that's only the local trade, can we?!'

Depressing as hel_l isn't it?

Likely to get worse in an economic slump too.

[GuestHouse]

How about 99% local men and did the foreigners even have any idea that the girls were not working willingly?

The link I posted was referring to a brothel with underage women who had been forced to work as prostitutes for foreign customers - The brothel was in Pattaya.

Are you seriously saying that 99% of the sex trade in Pattaya is for locals?

And has been mentioned before, having established that forced prostitution exists in Thailand and is found in establishments catering for foreigners this then raises the point that using prositutes in Thailand may be using someone who is working as a prostitute against their will.

Or if you like.

If you use prostitutes in Thailand you are supporting an industry in which extreme abuse of women exist.

On that level there is a wrong that cannot be avoided.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

So to the ones harping on about forced workers, how large of a segment do you think it is? 1%? 5%? 10%?

And why should we argue the clear super-minority when we in all other cases seem to argue the stereotypes or average person?

No-one here is arguing in favour of forced sex-workers, so it is really just a red herring.

Feel free to disregard it, but how big does a minority need to be before it raises concern? We've established that it DOES happen, also in the tourist areas, and that customers have no reliable way of recognizing that the girl is there due to debt bondage or worse. Someone mentioned 'up market venues' Let me submit that pretty much all of the up-market venues are in the local Thai scene; anything you see around you in Bangkok or Pattaya in terms of bars, brothels and massage shops is pretty close to bottom-end.

[GM1955]

If you use prostitutes in Thailand you are supporting an industry in which extreme abuse of women exist.

Can't argue with that .

[IanForbes]

If you use prostitutes in Thailand you are supporting an industry in which extreme abuse of women exist.

Can't argue with that .

True in some circumstances, but with no prostitution or marriage then many people would live a life of misery.

[Ulysses G.]

If you use prostitutes in Thailand you are supporting an industry in which extreme abuse of women exist.

If you buy running shoes or a house or use oil or drink coffee you are supporting industries that can be very dangerous for workers or in which they are abused. In fact. most industries have cases of workers being abused or cheated or working under dangerous conditions, but that does not mean that you stop doing business with the places that don't.

Just avoid the cheap brothels and there is almost no chance that anyone is working against their will.

Edited July 21, 2010 by Ulysses G.

[Semper]

If you use prostitutes in Thailand you are supporting an industry in which extreme abuse of women exist.

Can't argue with that .

True in some circumstances, but with no prostitution or marriage then many people would live a life of misery.

I assume you mean the expats or tourists here

[TAWP]

Feel free to disregard it, but how big does a minority need to be before it raises concern? We've established that it DOES happen, also in the tourist areas, and that customers have no reliable way of recognizing that the girl is there due to debt bondage or worse. Someone mentioned 'up market venues' Let me submit that pretty much all of the up-market venues are in the local Thai scene; anything you see around you in Bangkok or Pattaya in terms of bars, brothels and massage shops is pretty close to bottom-end.

This thread is not about your concerns for a clear minority that we all can sympathize with.

It is about if it is wrong to pay for sex.

If prostitution and brothels was legalized the workers would have better legal protection and the number of women you would like to feign concern for is most likely reduced drastically.

You argue as if the sex trade in itself is the issue for some women's issues.

It is not.

At the same way the reason children are forced into Factories is Nike's fault.

[GM1955]

<br>

<br>

<br>

<br>If you use prostitutes in Thailand you are supporting an industry in which extreme abuse of women exist. <br><br>

<br><br>Can't argue with that .<br>

<br><br>True in some circumstances,<b><u> but with no prostitution or marriage then many people would live a life of misery</u></b>.<br>

I assume you mean the expats or tourists here

Edited July 21, 2010 by GM1955

[IanForbes]

If you use prostitutes in Thailand you are supporting an industry in which extreme abuse of women exist.

Can't argue with that .

True in some circumstances, but with no prostitution or marriage then many people would live a life of misery.

I assume you mean the expats or tourists here

Yup. Everyone here wants to use the extremes in every situation to prove their case. I hate to keep repeating myself, but as I keep saying, there is no one size fits all. I've seen terrible abuses in so called "good" marriages. And, as someone already said, nobody here disagrees that sex slavery is bad or that all forms of paedophilia isn't terrible.

[cardholder]

If you use prostitutes in Thailand you are supporting an industry in which extreme abuse of women exist.

Can't argue with that .

Oh, but I think we can.

It is another sweeping generalisation. I don't doubt that there are SOME cases of extreme abuse (as there are in 'normal' domestic situations). I do doubt very much that the number are very great.

Every industry has it's risks.

[mark45y]

How about 99% local men and did the foreigners even have any idea that the girls were not working willingly?

The link I posted was referring to a brothel with underage women who had been forced to work as prostitutes for foreign customers - The brothel was in Pattaya.

Are you seriously saying that 99% of the sex trade in Pattaya is for locals?

And has been mentioned before, having established that forced prostitution exists in Thailand and is found in establishments catering for foreigners this then raises the point that using prositutes in Thailand may be using someone who is working as a prostitute against their will.

Or if you like.

If you use prostitutes in Thailand you are supporting an industry in which extreme abuse of women exist.

On that level there is a wrong that cannot be avoided.

Boy you guys are a gullible bunch. Am I the only one who read the articles in the links posted? The Pattaya one is 11 years old. The next one was about a vigilante group who rescued some ethnic mountain woman who were held captive by the Rayong police! Not a news story but a hacked together piece by an NGO who claims to have freed women who were being kidnapped to work in a factory along with 8 mon tribeswomen who were held in a house of prostitution in Rayong. The last article is not Thai related it is about another vigilante from Australia.

I said it before and I will say it again. I have not seen one news story about women held in slavery or indentured slavery to work in a brothel in Thailand in the last five years.

Things have changed. The desire for cell phones and women’s lib has done more for increasing the number of prostitutes in Thailand than any other two causes.

The rampant greed and consumerism approved and broadcast on TV has done more to fill the roles of Thai bars than any evil Somchai lurking to steal farmers daughters.

Your concerns about female slavery in Thailand and in the prostitution industry are misplaced.

You would be better looking at sweat shops in New York than brothels in Pattaya.

If any slavery exists it is so minuscule not to be worth talking about. There are places and industries where it is a problem but not in the hooker business in Thailand.

You got a moral thing going there Guesthouse. I would suggest reading Rain by W.Somerset Maugham.

[mark45y]

So I take it we now accept that forced prostitution is alive and well in Thailand, and not a Myth?!

One case I've linked to clearly states that the women (sorry they were minors, so girls) were forced into prostitution with Foreign customers - So we can't hide behind the 'Ah but that's only the local trade, can we?!'

Depressing as hel_l isn't it?

Likely to get worse in an economic slump too.

The case linked was 11 years old and concerns two 17 year old women. Who would now be 28 years old.

[Ulysses G.]

How about 99% local men and did the foreigners even have any idea that the girls were not working willingly?

The link I posted was referring to a brothel with underage women who had been forced to work as prostitutes for foreign customers -

Boy you guys are a gullible bunch. Am I the only one who read the articles in the links posted?

I figured they were more Andrea Dworkin quotes.

Edited July 21, 2010 by Ulysses G.

[mark45y]

If you use prostitutes in Thailand you are supporting an industry in which extreme abuse of women exist.

Can't argue with that .

Oh, but I think we can.

It is another sweeping generalisation. I don't doubt that there are SOME cases of extreme abuse (as there are in 'normal' domestic situations). I do doubt very much that the number are very great.

Every industry has it's risks.

I was abused in the United States Army. Yes I was. No doubt about it. I won’t go into it but you can trust me I was abused.

However I don’t think the Army should be put out of business for my abuse.

I don’t think all the people who sell things to the army should not be able to sell them.

Nor do I blame the people who sell things to the army or who use the army to rescue hurricane victims as responsible for my abuse.

It was basically one general who was an ahole who was responsible for my abuse. I think the same is true of prostitution. I am sure there are some aholes who abuse people. But I think they are a minority.

[t.s]

Let me make some comparisons and tell me if I didn't pay for a woman's company when I was married.

When Maria came into my life it was second marriage for both of us. She had a job when we first met, but the government shut it down a short time later. After that she did not work except for a dozen small businesses that I financed for her. Before any of the businesses became successful she quit and started another. They varied from hair stylist, to doing nails, to selling jewelry, to selling Amway goods, and then running a day care for children. In each case I paid for the start up costs and kept things going, including doing the accounting. I know what the costs were. I put up with the constant career changes because I understand that not all careers suit everyong equally. One of her friends had a successful day care business and Maria though she would like that. It looked like a smart idea because I knew her friend was making a good income from her day care business. But, we needed a larger home than the nice little one I already owned and that was perfect for just two people.

So, I sold the small home and took out a big morthgage for a larger home in a better location, specifically so she could run the day care. The business was a success from the start and the location was great. But, Just before the day care started making money she turned it over to her daughter who only lasted another year with it before she also quit. Then, I was stuck with a big house we didn't need with a mortgage I didn't want and no income to pay for it. The whole thing cost me a lot of money. During that time, I also helped out her two adult children in trying to get them careers. I also bought Maria two new cars that her son prompted destroyed. Fortunately, the insurance (which I paid for) covered most of the damage costs.

When her adult son got into the drug scene I was naive in thinking I could help. I had to buy him out of a rental home that he destroyed, and he moved in with us. !0 months after he moved in she moved out and left her son with me. A short time after that I had to get the police to get her son out of my home because he was smashing it in fits of rage. A couple months after that she filed for divorce and wanted half of everything. Over the 7 years we were together she had contributed nothing other than her body and her company. When we finally parted she walked away with half of what I had worked all my life for. We probably had sex about 3 or 4 times a week... about what I get now when I'm in Thailand. I don't want to hear all the usual feminazi claptrap about looking after the home for me. I did all the cooking and the clean up afterwards when we were together, and I did all the yard work. She contributed by doing the laundry and the lnterior house cleaning. I could have paid Molly-Maid house cleaning for that.

I put up with all that because I truly was in love with the lady and would have done anything for her. Ienjoyed her company and we had some great times together, but If I were to divide all the times we made love together into what it cost me financially it would come to far more than I've ever paid for prostitutes. Yes, the sex was mostly better (but not always) and for the good times we had together it was worth it to me. But, don't tell me I didn't pay for her company. And, it wasn't a lot different than the few special ladies that visit me now on a regular basis.

I fail to see what this has to do with the topic at hand.

this thread is turning into a pretty dull round of show and tell.

Edited July 21, 2010 by t.s

[Ulysses G.]

I fail to see what this has to do with the topic at hand.

He is equating marriage with paying for sex as in the topic heading.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Feel free to disregard it, but how big does a minority need to be before it raises concern? We've established that it DOES happen, also in the tourist areas, and that customers have no reliable way of recognizing that the girl is there due to debt bondage or worse. Someone mentioned 'up market venues' Let me submit that pretty much all of the up-market venues are in the local Thai scene; anything you see around you in Bangkok or Pattaya in terms of bars, brothels and massage shops is pretty close to bottom-end.

This thread is not about your concerns for a clear minority that we all can sympathize with. It is about if it is wrong to pay for sex.

If prostitution and brothels was legalized the workers would have better legal protection and the number of women you would like to feign concern for is most likely reduced drastically.

"TAWP", why the nastiness? Why would it be about my concerns? This is a forum is it not? I'm submitting some things that may raise concern, or indeed they may not, but why are you making this personal? And then "feign concern", &lt;deleted&gt;?

Dude, relax. People will start thinking you're having some personal interest in the industry.

You argue as if the sex trade in itself is the issue for some women's issues. It is not.

Of course it is!! Though perhaps more as a result than a cause; if there was more equal development and empowerment across the regions and classes, then many of the outrages in society, including the sex industry as well as others that are exploitative in nature, would not occur. (or occur far less)

Edited July 21, 2010 by WinnieTheKhwai