Different Rhythms

[bhoydy]

I just thought i'd bring this up because it's something i have difficulty with. Basically, rows of syllables with the same repeating tone, especially if they're rising or falling. For example,

ห้องว่างให้เช่า

I find things like this difficult to pronounce.

[SoftWater]

That's interesting, bhoydy. I have the opposite problem - when the tones change I tend to carry the tone from the previous syllable or word incorrectly onto the next one, particularly if the following or ending tone is mid-tone, it'll often get infected with the tone of the previous syllable.

In cases where the same tone is repeated, the only one I can think of that causes me regular trouble is the rising-rising of สองแถว. I take the song-taew to work everyday and often mention this in conversation, but the แถว never gets the right tone, even though I can say it perfectly well on its own.

Sorry I can't offer any answer or advice, just sharing the general tonal nightmare!

EDIT: actually, I did just have a thought about ห้องว่างให้เช่า which is that you have to shorten the vowel length for the last two words while maintaining the tone.

Edited July 15, 2010 by SoftWater

[Rikker]

When multiple falling tones come in a row you don't fall until the last one.

Pardon the semi-coherent phrase, but have a native speaker read this aloud and listen carefully: มีห้องว่างที่ผู้ว่าจ้างไม่ให้เช่า.

This sort of interaction happens to some extent in every many tonal languages. See tone sandhi (though note that there is no semantic change here).

[bhoydy]

When multiple falling tones come in a row you don't fall until the last one.

Pardon the semi-coherent phrase, but have a native speaker read this aloud and listen carefully: มีห้องว่างที่ผู้ว่าจ้างไม่ให้เช่า.

This sort of interaction happens to some extent in every many tonal languages. See tone sandhi (though note that there is no semantic change here).

I just did that with someone at work without telling him the reason and every syllable was spoken in the falling tone. We discussed it afterwords and he disagrees that you only fall on the final syllable.

[Rikker]

Did you have them read it at normal speech speed or enunciate each word? You get the effect when there are no pauses. So a phrase as long as the one I gave is a bit artificial.

Granted, even in running speech there is some lowering in pitch at the end of each syllables, but there simply isn't the same level of pitch drop as the word in isolation. If you say each syllable with the full fall it sounds very funny indeed.

[bhoydy]

Did you have them read it at normal speech speed or enunciate each word? You get the effect when there are no pauses. So a phrase as long as the one I gave is a bit artificial.

Granted, even in running speech there is some lowering in pitch at the end of each syllables, but there simply isn't the same level of pitch drop as the word in isolation. If you say each syllable with the full fall it sounds very funny indeed.

I see, so in the example are you saying all the syllables start at the same pitch as they normally would, but don't reach the same depth of a normal falling tone. I'm now saying it out loud to myself and i see what you mean. I'm able to do that with my original phrase because it's something i've said many times, but initially i had to say it slowly when learning it. It's the same with your example, i will have to say it slowly and unnaturally until i know it well enough to say it at some speed, whereby then losing the full drop in pitch. So, i will still struggle with these words or phrases as i learn them. Thanks for your help.

[Rikker]

That's right. Because normally a falling tone starts high, so you're just staying high(er) until either a pause or a different tone comes along.

[inthepink]

A falling tone doesn't really start high and then just fall. If you listen carefully to native speakers, it goes up a bit first and then falls.

[bhoydy]

You're right but it'll always go up that little bit and then start to fall before you hit the next word, i reckon.

[inthepink]

Yes it does. I've never heard a native speaker do what Rikker is saying. The problem is that it is hard to test out as if you print that sentence out and ask someone to read it then they will enunciate each word carefully. You've probably noticed yourself that Thai people are much more accurate with their tones when reading out loud than when conversing.

Edited July 17, 2010 by inthepink

[RickBradford]

ห้องว่างให้เช่า

What I do with this, although I don't know if it's correct, is to step up the tone through the words before delivering the proper falling tone with the last syllable, so that there is a general rise in tone until the final fall.

For example, if I start ห้อง at middle C, I rise it to E, maybe a little fall back;ว่าง goes from E to G, fall; ให้ from G to the next, er, B is it, เช่า from B to D with the proper fall at the end. If you're speaking quickly, it doesn't sound odd, certainly not as odd as bouncing along with the same rise and fall.

It seems to work (as far as being understood goes).

I didn't make this scheme up, by the way, I acquired it from speaking Vietnamese, as this is how they handle multiple tones of this kind.

Edited July 19, 2010 by RickBradford