Real Inequality In The Thai Society

[koosdeboer]

Well here is my two Baht say. OP's like this are a part of the problem. I have had a lot of time on my hands latley and read lots of posts. They all have one thing in common.

They all maintain the problem is money. Not one single post has referred to are they happy. Every one is telling them they are poor and Joe Blow over there has a lot of money. So what are they willing to do the work to get it? A lot of those super rich people put in more hours in a week than 95% of these poor Thais do. Not all of them but still a lot.

It has been mentioned here that giving them money is not the answer. I whole heartedly agree. I have a cousin who works for Microsoft. He is very well paid. He has his own charitable foundation. We were talking one day and he mentioned that the best thing he can do for a lot of villages is drill wells for them. Not hand out money to them. I saw a documentary on parts of China. They have no electricity or gas and the women spends up to three hours a day gathering fire wood. The government has come in and helped them to develop there own source of energy. Now they can cook with electricity and develop there lives in other ways.

Bottom line if they are happy quite dwelling on all the money Joe Blow has and ask them would there be something I could do to help.

One last point that article is like a fortune teller they tell you some thing that fits most every one. Same with the article It fits all countries. some of you people really should get out more.

I agree, don't give them money. I via my wife support my mother in law. I had to hear via a niece that she donated 10.000 THB to a temple and not the simple temple of the village but the wat thamakan, probably the richest temple of Thailand.

She thinks she will have a better next life because of the donation. I told my wife that I prefer to spend my money on the education of our daughter and that she tells her mother that she doesn't agree. But according to her the mother is free to spend the way she wants. No chance of a discussion.

There must be a lot of money flowing from the poor into the temples for sure. Maybe that's why they stay poor.

[RedNIvar]

I would think the last riots in town would highlight the fact that there is a fundamental problem with the distribution of wealth in the country. There is a systematic increase in the gap between the have's and not have's. This is very apparent, and you would have to be blind to not see this. Thailand has a middle class, that is mostly found around Bangkok, Chiang Mai and Hatyai. The gap has constantly been growing larger, and something has to be done to slow this down and eventually bring more from the low income group into the middle class. Failure to do so will eventually cause more uprising and riots. The riots in Indonesia in May of 1998 is a prime example of what happens when the gap gets too wide. Mild initial riots turned to a pogrom against the wealthy Chinese community.

The arrogance among the Thai elite today is due to backing from the military. In a nation that is susceptible to corruption, that is not too wise. You never know when the floor will collapse under you. The only way to protect your wealth is to ensure that everyone gets a taste of the riches. Well that is what I think.

[asiawatcher]

This is kind of a bad expose' with little meaning - as the likelihood of any 'poor' individual gaining access to a parliamentary seat is nil. So stating the obvious does nothing. What it usually comes down to is education. Over 90% of the world's billionaires had little or only basic education. It is not something the Thai populace likes but as already stated 1 vote 1 person but voting is not compulsory.

As an aside - I would think the country would be far better run is business people formed a board and had members of banks and business, and they were accountable by law and not able to obtain 'parliamentary privileges'. Make the Board accountable and held to book with monthly reports subject to audit on all transactions with the auditing firms changed annually. Printing of the decisions and the results should be mandatory in every six months and then let the population gauge the result by the numbers. Open and transparent accounting of all business affecting Thailand would slow (but not stop) the corruption to a greater extent than present. It would be a start!

And whilst some will quip but Toxin was a businessman, yes, he was a corrupt one thus if a board was audited and unable to alter points of law to cover their corrupt activities, then these issues would be negated. LOL wishful thinking to be sure.

[LuckyLew]

What country does have equal distribution of wealth?

This is common to almost every country

If they wanna have more money they can get off their backsides

and work for it

[Anyse]

I can certainly agree with you here. However, did you read the article on the literacy level of third graders also posted today?

http://www.thaivisa....rs-substandard/

This shows that this would be, indeed, a very long road . . .

The people of Thailand don't need "shopping power", they need a new culture that values individual thinking, new ideas, inventions and audacity.

Only to people possessing those properties has a transfer of wealth any lasting effect.

So, perhaps changing the mindset of the young generation, education etc. prior to redistributing wealth would do the trick ??

Just my five cents..

[pcruzer]

GREED is an inbred survival tactic. it will not stop until wealth is distributed evenly by....

OFF WITH THEIR HEADS!!

[ableguy]

Something like what is being done in the west at this time could be suggested , billionairs have been asked to give half of thier wealth to agencies for the poor , billions of dollars have poured forth to aid the poor since the requests started and it seems more is to follow . Who needs that much money any way ?

Are you serious? have you ever known one single Thai willing to give away money .

[steveromagnino]

Many countries have even wider gaps between rich and poor, USA is a good example. You really don't want a totally flat country, that is impossible and will only result in misery.

Well, I don't think the actual gap size is a good measurement, rather the distribution curve.

In the US there's a middle class, here there's a "hole" in the middle of the curve.

This gap is a big hinderance for any "poor" person to move upwards. No "American Dream" here, really..

To compare Thailand with the US and conclude that US is poorer is not only absurd, but downright stupid IMHO.

Actually, you can compare USA and Thailand directly as yuou say, through distribution curve; there is the Lorenz curve and the GINI index, both of which are ways to calculate wealth distribution.

You will find very very similar distribution of wealth in Thailand and USA. The median point isn't the same, but the curves are remarkably similar.

Countries with a more 'fair' distribution are tending to have more wealth overall often than LDCs or DCs but also a fairly extensive welfare system which pulls the bottom 'up' while also taxing the top down; such a system requires a large number of people capable of producing something; given that the majority of the working population in Thailand is no longer farming, but working in factories, often to send money back to the farming community which tends to be often actually a money loser, we are now at a point where it is possible to start considering pushing Thailand in that direction; hence the introduction of universal healthcare by the Democrats, then by TRT, then improved by the coup govt, then improved again by the PPP and then the Dems again. We see free education written into the constitution - might take a few years to work though.

The biggest issue that the architect of microcredit/village funds in the TRT period told me as to why it was a failure (his words, not mine) was it was giving money easily to many people who didn't know what they were supposed to use it for exactly once they got it.

To create a nation of respondible entrepreneurs who will deliver sustainable long term growth and sustainable competitive advantage to any country is a series of steps; the idea that all of the population deserves access to health, education should be a given. But to have subsidised rice prices, sugar prices, free this free that, just because they are at the bottom of the pyramid doing something inefficiently or non productive isn't the answer. The answer is to get them standing on their own two feet living within their means doing what they are doing (so they don't need govt support to be a farmer) or give them another option to upskill and do something else.

Its the second one that successive govts always struggle with. The first one it then becomes super easy to just flick them cash and make them happy now.

One could do worse than read False Economy by the financial editor of the FT. Its not bad for explaining some of this; a few glaring errors but despite that it kind of covers off how countries end up the way they do.

As for the idea that a poor uneducated farmer can be an MP. Under the many constitutions, since 1997 it has been impossible to be an MP without a bachelor degree - there is an inbuilt check to stop uneducated becoming MPs (a few have cheated their way in and bought degrees). In addition, the political system makes it virtually impossible for a poor person without power to become an MP particularly in the provinces with a large number of rural voters; most poor rural provinces have been controlled by the same factions (or one of 2/3 factions e.g. Rayong area) the entire period of democracy regardless of which colour or party was running. The godfather system is alive and well.

This godfather system is also why the urban areas are developing quickly, and the rural areas are often the same as 20 years ago (with a lot more discretionary spending and a lot more debt). Competitive market forces that would break down the massive inequities of buyer/seller supply/demand simply don't exist in much of upcountry Thailand.

How do you think some parties/people afford to buy so many votes? That money is a skim of the profit acquired from the inequity.

To suggest a farmer is worth more or less somehow than an office worker is difficult; but if you let market forces decide it, then for sure, the farmers in areas like Isaan, that work productively around 60 days of the year (single crop, subscale land plots) earn less because they are less productive than say farmers in Sukhothai/Suphan who work often 300 days a year (5 crops every 2 years, larger land plots).

This is why for the first time in Thai history, there are now more people working in factories and offices (as maids, office staff etc) than there are working in the fields. You can go to most Thai villages and see this; the grandparents are there, but the productive age people return just a month or two a year, then return to the cities/factories to actually earn some cash.

If you want equality in the provinces it is very simple:

- education and trade skills training

- infrastructure and logistics

- remove all the subsidies and let market forces and competition drive off the subscale farmers

- provide the tools to help these people live within their means

Problem is the last one is the hardest, and easiest to instead just give them free stuff.

Indonesia under Suharto and THailand now cannot really be compared. Many of the current affluent do so in competitive markets, and provide huge employment for the people who might rise up against them.

In fact, if we go down the list of protected industry in the last 10 years, one will see an interesting pattern:

- media e.g. Ch 3

- telecoms e.g. Thaicom, AIS

- retail especially mom and pop size stores e.g. 7-11

Let's look at favoured industries as a result of deregulation and trade deals

- car parts suppliers e.g. Thai Summit

- Sugar and commodity processors e.g. CP, most of the upcountry sugar processors

Then as a result of specific government policy

- property development incentives e.g. Noble, Land and House, SC Asset

and of course firms benefiting from infrastructure deals

- contractors e.g. ItalThai

Now go and look at how many of these were voted into cabinet positions at various times mostly by the rural vote.

How can you rise up against the people you love? (or think you love)

Edited July 29, 2010 by steveromagnino

[bethanysleewer]

I agree there is a big gap between rich and poor.. It is the same in most countries in Asia and even the western world is now trying to make that gap larger also.. You cant dominate your people any other way.... Look what they are doing to the US as we speak. Keep them scared, paying bills, bailing out the rich and stick em in suburbia and give em American Idol and Oprah..

[robertson468]

I would say there is another underlying problem that needs to be solved before it is even possible to discuss wealth redistribution...

namely the simple fact that it is utterly useless to spread wealth to people totally unable to handle it.

- before you start ranting - I am NOT saying that anyone is stupid or that the poor are useless.. NO,

I am saying that true wealth is created by ideas, entrepreneurs, and people who can build structures from means of current wealth to assure future wealth. And, as long as people here are simply trying to - at best - become "the perfect employee" instead of creating something new, there isn't much more they can do with the money than go shopping with them.. ..which will only transfer the doe right back to the multinational companies anyway..

The people of Thailand don't need "shopping power", they need a new culture that values individual thinking, new ideas, inventions and audacity.

Only to people possessing those properties has a transfer of wealth any lasting effect.

So, perhaps changing the mindset of the young generation, education etc. prior to redistributing wealth would do the trick ??

Just my five cents..

In a nutshell "education, education, education". And not just the classroom type either. All the Universities and Colleges should be obliged to run business courses, particularly for the new and aspiring entrepreneurs and these classes should be free of charge. This would be an investment not only in the people, but in the economy as a whole. Simple books like "Rich Dad Poor Dad and Cash Flow Quadrant" and many others should also be made available - I know they are in Thai Language because panraya-pom has already read them. If they did this, they would be stealing a march on the Western Economy because their education system is based purely on academic studies; I know of none that teach "Financial Education". This give the individual the tools on which to base a sound financial future. Just look at the successful people who have not completed a degree course, but are the Captains of Industry, such as Sir Richard Branson and Bill Gates, but to name two. Many Countries, including the developed ones are stuck in the "Industrial Age"" of education and do not have the vision to move into the Information Age" of education.

Having said that, there will always be a rich and poor divide (including in the developed Countries) either due to poor perception skills, just being bone-idle or other mitigating factors. Such is the rich tapestry of life in this World folks, which is my five per cents worth to add to Johan V's.:jap:

[AWESOME17]

Very true about all the comments of ' a huge wide gap between the rich &the poor in Thailand'. We all know everyone has his/her own self interests so it is defintely not going to change things .Not your comment , my comment or many others' comments who talk abt equal rights;it is not going to happen here in Thailand . That's why it is called ' AMAZING THAILAND', ONLY OUR SUPERNATURAL GOD CAN CHANGE THINGS.

[RedNIvar]

Many countries have even wider gaps between rich and poor, USA is a good example. You really don't want a totally flat country, that is impossible and will only result in misery.

Well, I don't think the actual gap size is a good measurement, rather the distribution curve.

In the US there's a middle class, here there's a "hole" in the middle of the curve.

This gap is a big hinderance for any "poor" person to move upwards. No "American Dream" here, really..

To compare Thailand with the US and conclude that US is poorer is not only absurd, but downright stupid IMHO.

I'm sure you'd find a bimodal distribution with a very long tail.

[Samuian]

I would say there is another underlying problem that needs to be solved before it is even possible to discuss wealth redistribution...

namely the simple fact that it is utterly useless to spread wealth to people totally unable to handle it.

- before you start ranting - I am NOT saying that anyone is stupid or that the poor are useless.. NO,

I am saying that true wealth is created by ideas, entrepreneurs, and people who can build structures from means of current wealth to assure future wealth. And, as long as people here are simply trying to - at best - become "the perfect employee" instead of creating something new, there isn't much more they can do with the money than go shopping with them.. ..which will only transfer the doe right back to the multinational companies anyway..

The people of Thailand don't need "shopping power", they need a new culture that values individual thinking, new ideas, inventions and audacity.

Only to people possessing those properties has a transfer of wealth any lasting effect.

So, perhaps changing the mindset of the young generation, education etc. prior to redistributing wealth would do the trick ??

Just my five cents..

Seems you are serious with your stance on this topic, my guess is you are referring to people as indigenious and inventive as Bill Gates, Trump, Murdock, Sultan of Brunei, Emir Hamad bin Khalifa ath-Thani of Quatar, Khalifa bin Zayed Al Nahayan of the UAE, or T.Shinawatra, maybe Pablo Escobar, Adnan Kashoggi, Mohamed Al Fayed, Paul Lir Alexander, Rick Ross, not to mention some of the "Superstars" from sports and entertainment who are pushed into dreamworlds of stardom and unfathomable wealth and riches and the likes....?

Sorry, but there is some hard core colonial-capitalist "poor are poor because they are not as clever as..." attitude radiating out of your post, it's in many, many cases not holding the water, my son!

[Deeral]

GREED is an inbred survival tactic. it will not stop until wealth is distributed evenly by....

OFF WITH THEIR HEADS!!

Absolutely not!

I hope you're not judging others by a trait of your own.

Humans are by nature social animals they have developed by their ability to co-operate and work together - that's how we get animals to eat and build cities etc - greed etc when it surfaces is usually repelled or shunned by societies. In a large modern society the principal still exists it may be slower, but you still witness demonstrations and popular movements whose basis is re-distributing power and wealth amongst society in general.

[nikkoid66]

The Thais do not need a better wealth redistribution, what they need is a better education system.

Most Thai in the country finish school at 12 and are not able to read and write Thai correctly!

Even Cuba has a better education system than Thailand...

Better education will give the Thais the power to innovate, and create companies that can compete internationally.

Also they need to learn English at School... no English, no money in this world.

[Deeral]

http://www.thaivisa....le-in-thailand/

So one vote = equality? - how does this fit into the equation??

Edited July 29, 2010 by Deeral

[jayjay0]

I would think the last riots in town would highlight the fact that there is a fundamental problem with the distribution of wealth in the country. There is a systematic increase in the gap between the have's and not have's. This is very apparent, and you would have to be blind to not see this. Thailand has a middle class, that is mostly found around Bangkok, Chiang Mai and Hatyai. The gap has constantly been growing larger, and something has to be done to slow this down and eventually bring more from the low income group into the middle class. Failure to do so will eventually cause more uprising and riots. The riots in Indonesia in May of 1998 is a prime example of what happens when the gap gets too wide. Mild initial riots turned to a pogrom against the wealthy Chinese community.

The arrogance among the Thai elite today is due to backing from the military. In a nation that is susceptible to corruption, that is not too wise. You never know when the floor will collapse under you. The only way to protect your wealth is to ensure that everyone gets a taste of the riches. Well that is what I think.

Interesting points of view

One must bear in mind that the last riots in Bangkok were not planned and run by the have nots. The have nots were merely used as tools by a certain portion of the haves to further enrich themselves.

What is really needed is real education among the have not's. With that they can better there conditions by there selves and gain a greater sense of pride. Having Some one just give them money will not give them a sense of pride.

There education should include knowledge of what democracy is all about. A huge percentage of the population think that voting for who ever pays the most is democracy. Of course you are always going to have the wealthy in power with that attitude they are the only ones who can afford to get elected. Yes in a back door way that is democracy but it is being used on people who don't know better. They do not know that they have the power to change things with there vote. educate them.

[Deeral]

Very true about all the comments of ' a huge wide gap between the rich &the poor in Thailand'. We all know everyone has his/her own self interests so it is defintely not going to change things .Not your comment , my comment or many others' comments who talk abt equal rights;it is not going to happen here in Thailand . That's why it is called ' AMAZING THAILAND', ONLY OUR SUPERNATURAL GOD CAN CHANGE THINGS.

just about of the point on eveything.

it is in most people's self interest to have a more egalitarian society that way you get to keep your property, lifestyle etc.

Thailand doesn't have a God either.

[Deeral]

"One must bear in mind that the last riots in Bangkok were not planned and run by the have nots. The have nots were merely used as tools by a certain portion of the haves to further enrich themselves."

Doesn't matter who "organised" it the fact that they were have nots available who were disenchanted enough to get involved is the point about a lop-sided society

[RPCVguy]

This post does not surprise me, but it reminded me of news lately as to how well the Thai economy is doing,

with exports still projected to grow at nearly.7.5%,

... and that reminded me of a YouTube video on the affect export growth has had on other economies.

(see http://www.youtube.c...h?v=733owHYcMf0 and there is a part 2 as well

)

Is this a large part of what is beginning to happen in Thailand? Removing hardwood forests to add corn and similar crops to the economy is a repetition of the short sighted economic gains that agribusiness seems adept at. Prosperity in a country is usually limited to a few, while the process of loosing local farms and markets tends to lead to inflation as global pricing of goods takes hold. If that happens here, only a relatively few people will remain feeling comfortable.

It is still early in this process for Thailand. The problems shown in these two videos can still largely be avoided. :jap:

[LiveSteam]

The only way to get the poor standards up is though education but the Thai rulling class like to keep the sable boy in the stable.

LiveSteam

[Deeral]

RPCVguy -

You might want to Google "georgism" - the economic and land theories of Henry George.

Not a perfect answer but it has some interesting points to make.

Edited July 29, 2010 by Deeral

[zakk9]

There are laws against equality in Thailand. You can't become a member of parliament without a university degree, you can't become a judge without a degree from abroad, and so on. Then you have corruption, the rich feed the rich. And the low standard of education for anybody without money. Why would the Bangkok elite want to change this? It gives them unlimited access to drivers, maids, factory workers, mistresses etc.

On top of this, there's no distribution of wealth. Look at Pattaya, which should be flowing over with money. Still, most of the city looks like a junkyard. Ever been to Banglamung hospital? It's worse than some Isaan hospitals I've seen. The rich don't pay tax, the poor don't pay tax and the middle class is almost non-existent.

This won't change overnight, and if it gets much worse, it may become so politically incorrect to establish industry here that the multinationals move to the neighbouring countries, particularly Malaysia and Vietnam. But the rich won't care, because they will still have money, and the poor will still be poor and Thailand will still be Thailand.

[julemanden]

Inequality? No way.

The rich and poor in Thailand both have equal rights. Both have only 1 vote.

Yeah + all the votes they afford to pay for

[Deeral]

" You can't become a member of parliament without a university degree" - I don't think this is true - although the idea was certainly recently mooted and the sheer fact that it was given consideration just goes to show how incredibly inegalitarian a society /Thailand is.

[seri thai]

Inequality? No way.

The rich and poor in Thailand both have equal rights. Both have only 1 vote.

:cheesy:

Good to see political awareness developing in SE Asia.

Just make sure you vote for the "approved" party...

p.s. Glad I'm not entitled to a vote here!

[Piengrudee]

<br />"<font color="#1C2837"><font size="2"> You can't become a member of parliament without a university degree" - I don't think this is true - although the idea was certainly recently mooted and the sheer fact that it was given consideration just goes to show how incredibly inegalitarian a society /Thailand is.</font></font><br />

<br /><br /><br />

Banharn is alleged to only finish Por 4 (grade 4).

[somo]

Redistribution of wealth will come gradually if first equality of opportunity is granted.

Primarily this should be through education and investment in poorer areas.

This is the responsibility of goverment. Having said that nearly all western developed economies show a worsening in wealth distribution as politicians are largely scared to upset the wealthy even though the supposed trickle down of wealth has been shown to be insufficient.

The trouble here is that as soon as they got a goverment prepared to do something along these lines the wealthy saw it as a threat and stamped on it firmly by getting the army to overthrow it. Sure Taksin was no saint but saints don't achieve anything in politics.

The one thing he did do though is stir things up and the debate is at least happening as to how to include neglected sections of society.

The wealthy around the world naturally resist any threat to their position and use their wealth to buy influence and politicians. The difference here is that they can also call on the army to help them out which trumps any hope of democratic change.

[philw]

" You can't become a member of parliament without a university degree" - I don't think this is true - although the idea was certainly recently mooted and the sheer fact that it was given consideration just goes to show how incredibly inegalitarian a society /Thailand is.

I think it's written into the last constitution as a parliamentary requirement.

[ryladie99]

Many countries have even wider gaps between rich and poor, USA is a good example. You really don't want a totally flat country, that is impossible and will only result in misery.

Good point for an outstanding post..thanks.

Remember anyone who is abused others will pay the price by the end.....everything is matter and time will tell. History always repeats itself.

People who have no conscious will never be able to prosper and be happy...( living and walking in hel_l ) Cheat, lie and taking advantage from others without feeling guilty.. and these people are parasites in our society...they should not be born.....

These are mentality of the nasty Rich who are evils.....wait until the Poor raise up and call for an Equality...money talk means nothing....Do not think by throwing the legitimate votes in the trash cans will be forever. People knows and they will talk when the time is right.

The world will turn and no more nasty rich except the people class and everyone has same thing....and live in Compounds..

21 TH century is around the corner and anything is possible in my opinion.

For the Good Rich who do good deed no offense because you are good to society....people know what you do???

My take.