Retirement Visa Confusion

[Farang-Kha]

Hello

This is my first post , so forgive me if my questions have been answered before. I've had a good search of the archives before asking, but not found exactly what I'm looking for. My questions all concern Retirement Visa.

I've also done extensive research on all the official Thai embassy and immigration sites, so I guess anyone else who's done the same will not be surprised when I say I'm confused about the inconsistencies I've found. So I'm asking for the voice of experience, please.

I'm over 50, British, and meet the financial criteria OK through both pensionable income and investment. I also meet the other Retirement requirements. I'm planning on retiring from the UK by August, and have already sold my primary residence there. However, I would like some guidance on 2 or 3 matters, please.

My fundamental question is: "What - exactly - is meant by 'retirement'"? I have seen definitions that range from the strictest of interpretations (like "even thinking about anything that could be construed as 'work' is illegal") to a fairly loose interpretation that says "Retirement allows you to work at home running an internet-based business, provided the work you do does not affect the employment of a Thai citizen". I got the latter interpretation from a Thai lawyer in Bangkok who theoretically should know what he's talking about, but then again might have been preying on my perceived naivety.

The reason I am asking is specifically because the second interpretation more suits my own circumstances. I don't own a company, nor do I actively run a business even though I could easily register one in the UK now. Also - as I said - I have sufficient income from retirement pensions that I don't NEED more income. However, I WANT to keep my mind active, and earn a few more dollars by working quietly and privately from home (I write software).

So my real question is: "If I enter on a retirement visa, keep myself intellectually amused working from my back room at home, make a small supplementary income from what I do, and do not draw any form of income as a foreigner that might have otherwise been drawn by a Thai citizen - would I be in breach of the Retirement visa conditions?"

If - on the other hand - the interpretation of "Retirement" is nearer to the stricter definition I gave, then I am further confused. Here's why:......My understanding is that - in order to purchase land and/or property, it is fairly common practice to establish a Thai company to do so. I think I understand that mechanism fairly well. However, I also understand that any such company established must submit annual accounts and eventually - prove that it is actually trading in some way. Here's my confusion:.....How is it possible to be "Retired" in the strictest sense of the definition, yet at the same time be a Director or major shareholder on a (profit making) Thai company?

I don't know whether these questions are too difficult to answer, but I really would be very grateful if anyone has the legal skill, or experience of this aspect, to help me out a little, please.

On a second matter (and I hope this is the sort of question I'm allowed to ask in here): does anyone have any experience with the law firm that advertises on this site "SCM INTERNATIONAL LAW OFFICE LTD" (www.thailandlaw.com), and what were their experiences with them? Alternatively - can anyone recommend a good (cheap and reliable) lawyer to help smooth the paperwork path to getting the visa - or is it best to do it one's self?

Thank you for any help that you might give

Edited July 7, 2005 by Farang-Kha

[Thaiquila]

I think the simple answer is not really a matter of the definition of retirement, but rather that your work activities are off the radar in Thailand.

For example, there you are on a retirement visa in Thailand, quietly working on your computer and being paid in non-Thai currencies to a non-Thai bank account. Who is going to know or care? My impression is that lots of people are doing just that.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Apply yourself by mail at the Thai Consulate at Hull. Very straight forward. The Consul is Alan Taylor.

[Tywais]

I think the simple answer is not really a matter of the definition of retirement, but rather that your work activities are off the radar in Thailand.

For example, there you are on a retirement visa in Thailand, quietly working on your computer and being paid in non-Thai currencies to a non-Thai bank account. Who is going to know or care? My impression is that lots of people are doing just that.

Thaiqula's right. I run a commercial Internet site selling software I write which is outside of LOS and the income goes to an account also outside LOS. Working at home from your computer it's going to be very difficult to detect unless you actively advertise it locally. My case is different in that I have a job and the Internet business is mainly for enjoyment with the added benefit of a few thousand baht a mount extra income for the missus to spend

[lopburi3]

As said there are laws and there are laws. If you are not the subject of a crime watch there is unlikely to be any problem but it would be the less talk the better.

A person can own a company without working. It would just be an investment.

You do not need lawyers for a retirement visa application. And you can do the process in the UK before you even come here. If you do it here you need three things - a local bank account with letter of amount in account - a short medical certificate from clinic or hospital (not drug user, alcoholic or listed contagious disease which requires about ten minutes and 50 - 250 baht) - letter from your Embassy advising amount of your pension. You take that and copies of passport to immigration and pay 1,900 baht for TM.7 extension form and get one year extension within an hour or so. Very simple.

[Farang-Kha]

Thank you very much for taking the time to reply. I understand the pragmatism (and common sense!!) in your reply and - as you say - I expect lots already do that. However - I'm sure you can understand my caution as deportation is not quite what I planned, nor a spell in the Bangkok Hilton, or Lubyanka.....or wherever. However - I'm guessing by your reply, therefore, that even working at home in the manner you describe is most probably technically illegal. That's what I wanted to establish, as I was a bit concerned about the 'legal' advice I got, which I suspected was slightly blase.

Thank you again

[Farang-Kha]

I think the simple answer is not really a matter of the definition of retirement, but rather that your work activities are off the radar in Thailand.

For example, there you are on a retirement visa in Thailand, quietly working on your computer and being paid in non-Thai currencies to a non-Thai bank account. Who is going to know or care? My impression is that lots of people are doing just that.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thaiqula's right. I run a commercial Internet site selling software I write which is outside of LOS and the income goes to an account also outside LOS. Working at home from your computer it's going to be very difficult to detect unless you actively advertise it locally. My case is different in that I have a job and the Internet business is mainly for enjoyment with the added benefit of a few thousand baht a mount extra income for the missus to spend

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thank you for replying. I think the description of what you do with your Internet business, and what I want to do (apart from the destination of the income!! ) is similar. That gives me a good idea of what's sensible, and what's not.

[Thaiquila]

Is it really technically illegal, or perhaps simply not codified?

The legal issue I see is stating that you are not working in Thailand on the visa application. If you stated otherwise, no visa.

[Farang-Kha]

As said there are laws and there are laws.  If you are not the subject of a crime watch there is unlikely to be any problem but it would be the less talk the better.

A person can own a company without working.  It would just be an investment.

You do not need lawyers for a retirement visa application.  And you can do the process in the UK before you even come here.  If you do it here you need three things - a local bank account with letter of amount in account - a short medical certificate from clinic or hospital (not drug user, alcoholic or listed contagious disease which requires about ten minutes and 50 - 250 baht) - letter from your Embassy advising amount of your pension.  You take that and copies of passport to immigration and pay 1,900 baht for TM.7 extension form and get one year extension within an hour or so.  Very simple.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thank you for taking the time to reply. I think I understand the aspect about being a non-working company director. Lots I know tell me I was one!! .....<cough>....

As far as the visa application is concerned, you say I can process it in the UK before arrival. Which would you advise is preferable? (UK or Thailand?). My concern about applying when in Thailand is that there's a bit of an element of 'doing it on spec'. And do I need a police record check, as I have read on the various Thai official websites? I ask, because you don't mention it with the short list of things you say I need if applying in Thailand.

Sorry to trouble you

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Apply yourself by mail at the Thai Consulate at Hull.  Very straight forward. The Consul is Alan Taylor.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Nothing has changed.

[Farang-Kha]

Is it really technically illegal, or perhaps simply not codified?

The legal issue I see is stating that you are not working in Thailand on the visa application. If you stated otherwise, no visa.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't quite understand your last sentence. At the time of my arrival, I genuinely and truthfully would be coming to Thailand to retire. Hence - without doubt - I'd be officially retired in every respect. The basis of my question, though, was if - at some time - I got bored with doing nothing apart from the housework (Lol) - and I turned my attention to creating some application software in my home 'office' (not that I'd ever use such a term, of course....) that eventually returned an income (into a bank account outside Thailand, naturally), would I be technically 'working' and hence 'illegal'? Frankly, I'd want to be as above board as possible, as it's not my intention to get deported, or spend time for tax evasion. Equally, however, I don't want to retire quietly - tell the authorities a few months later I just earned 1000 baht on the internet -, and find myself having my retirement visa cancelled, and an employment visa refused.

[Farang-Kha]

Thank you very much for taking the time to reply. I understand the pragmatism (and common sense!!) in your reply and - as you say - I expect lots already do that. However - I'm sure you can understand my caution  as deportation is not quite what I planned, nor a spell in the Bangkok Hilton, or Lubyanka.....or wherever. However - I'm guessing by your reply, therefore, that even working at home in the manner you describe is most probably technically illegal. That's what I wanted to establish, as I was a bit concerned about the 'legal' advice I got, which I suspected was slightly blase.

Thank you again

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry - this reply was to Taiquil's first response. It got detached because I wasn't used to these buttons on the forum. On that basis - I ought to be able to run a successful software business, don't you think??

[Thaiquila]

I am going to let someone more expert to answer this one. However, I do know on a retirement visa you are technically not allowed to work in Thailand. Also, the visa is extended annually, so on each extension you would also by applying for such a visa be making a promise not to work in Thailand. You cannot get a work permit with a retirement visa. If you are working quietly off the radar and you decide to make this public in Thailand, for example, announcing it to immigration, I would imagine you would indeed have a problem.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Retirement here means exactly that. Asking questions over and over that are contrary to that situation, will not change a thing.

[Farang-Kha]

Retirement here means exactly that. Asking questions over and over that are contrary to that situation, will not change a thing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thank you for that. I'm sorry if I irritated you by seemingly repeating the same question. I was seeking clarification, not trying to change the law. I think your answer is exactly the way I had understood it before I ever posted the question(s) and I feel quite comfortable with your interpretation.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

[Thaiquila]

FK, I for one am not completely satisfied with this answer.

We all know lots of people are doing this, living in Thailand on a retirement visa and working on their computers on international work projects, and paid offshore.

So, maybe the real question, is that if someone is doing this and Thai immigration became aware of it, would they (1) bother doing anything about it and (2) would the consequences be the same as if it was someone doing work directly in the Thai economy?

I don't recall hearing of too many people being bothered in their homes for writing software for non-Thai companies ...

Edited July 9, 2005 by Thaiquila

[Farang-Kha]

I am going to let someone more expert to answer this one. However, I do know on a retirement visa you are technically not allowed to work in Thailand. Also, the visa is extended annually, so on each extension you would also by applying for such a visa be making a promise not to work in Thailand. You cannot get a work permit with a retirement visa. If you are working quietly off the radar and you decide to make this public in Thailand, for example, announcing it to immigration, I would imagine you would indeed have a problem.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thank you again, Thaiquila. Based on what I've researched, what you say is exactly how I would have interpreted things. I deliberately entitled this thread 'Visa Confusion' because I posed the same questions to an immigration lawyer in Bangkok. Here - verbatim - is his reply (to my 2 questions) [spelling mistakes include to verify validity of the source!]:

" No, you can still invest in any compnay or even establsihed a limited company with majority shares owned by you as long as you do not derive salary from a local company. Retirement visa holders are not allowed to work ( with a Work Pemrit ) but they are allowed to invest and work behind the screen."

Frankly - I was surprised at his interpretation (the last line), and was a bit sceptical and suspected he told me what he thought I wanted to hear. That's why I came here to see what people have actually experienced, and what their advice would be. It's not my intention to break the law under any circumstances.

[Thaiquila]

You are welcome, but of course, your lawyer is more of an expert than I am!

What I really wonder about is whether the situation we are talking about is even described in Thai law.

We are talking about a kind of international internet phenom, people working digitally accross borders, accross currencies.

Much of the world has not caught up with these new realities.

That is why I brought up the question about whether this is really codified. I somehow doubt that it is.

Of course, who wants to be the test case that is thrown in the monkey house?

So, like many things in Thailand and life, you might have to weigh the odds and take a calculated risk.

Edited July 9, 2005 by Thaiquila

[Farang-Kha]

FK, I for one am not completely satisfied with this answer.

We all know lots of people are doing this, living in Thailand on a retirement visa and working on their computers on international work projects, and paid offshore.

So, maybe the real question, is that if someone is doing this and Thai immigration became aware of it, would they (1) bother doing anything about it and (2) would the consequences be the same as if it was someone doing work directly in the Thai economy?

I don't recall hearing of too many people being bothered in their homes for writing software for non-Thai companies ...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

By the same token we know that thousands of people evade tax and commit undetected crimes. Not being caught is not quite the same as being innocent I am absolutely certain that what you say about some of those on retirement visas is accurate. If it's not legal, then the answer to your question (1) would almost certainly be 'yes', I would imagine. The answer to question (2) I couldn't possibly guess.

I'd also imagine that - if it is technically illegal, and those doing it know it's technically illegal - then the reason they haven't been visited in the middle of the night is because they've made sure the authorities don't know it's happening.

[Thaiquila]

Yes, BUT, what I am driving at by not codified is that I am guessing that the prohibition is against working IN Thailand.

Is working for a non-Thai company and paid in non-Thai money to a non-Thai bank account by a body physically in Thailand technically working IN Thailand as now written in Thai law?

I am guessing it is not covered because it is such a modern phenom.

So, if it is not covered, it MAY not technically be illegal.

Of course, that doesn't mean an overzealous officer might interpret it another way.

Another way to look at this, perhaps a rationalization, is that clearly such activity is not a threat to any Thai nationals employment, which is clearly the intention of these work prohibitions.

You sound like you feel the need to have no legal ambiguity in your life and have come to the conclusion that you can't do this.

Your tax analogy is interesting. I had an 8000 dollar gain last year that one tax advisor says is taxable and another says is not taxable. I am hiring the second advisor.

Edited July 9, 2005 by Thaiquila

[lopburi3]

If a non immigrant visa is extended for retirement inside Thailand the local police report is not required. Local police would be Thai in that case as you are here; not there.

Enjoy the difference. Ambiguity is the name of the game. It can keep a lot of small problems from becoming court cases; but do understand how alien that is to some judicial/administrative systems that require a straight line between right and wrong.

[JimGant]

I guess the question that might need answering is: how accomodating is Hull on Non Immigrant 'O-A' visa applications? We've heard a lot about Houston, New Orleans, and Portland on this forum re 'O-A' applications -- but I can't recall anything about Hull (?). Do they require notarization of police and medical reports? (If so, that would be enough for me to just get a Non Imm 'O' and do the 'extension for retirement purposes' in Thailand.)

I'll assume the OP has researched this forum for the pros and cons of 'O-A' vs 'O' in regards to retirement in Thailand. And putting the employment question completely aside, I'd call/e-mail Hull and ask their guidance re 'O-A' vs. 'O'.

But for sure, as in the States, don't use the Thai Embassy or the official MFA Consulates. Too much bureaucratic BS bogs down -- or even nullifies -- the application process.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Extension of an O in Thailand is the easy way to go.

[lopburi3]

I guess the question that might need answering is: how accomodating is Hull on Non Immigrant 'O-A' visa applications? We've heard a lot about Houston, New Orleans, and Portland on this forum re 'O-A' applications -- but I can't recall anything about Hull (?). Do they require notarization of police and medical reports? (If so, that would be enough for me to just get a Non Imm 'O' and do the 'extension for retirement purposes' in Thailand.)

I'll assume the OP has researched this forum for the pros and cons of 'O-A' vs 'O' in regards to retirement in Thailand. And putting the employment question completely aside, I'd call/e-mail Hull and ask their guidance re 'O-A' vs. 'O'.

But for sure, as in the States, don't use the Thai Embassy or the official MFA Consulates. Too much bureaucratic BS bogs down -- or even nullifies -- the application process.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

O-A is normally done by the Embassy in any case - and in UK believe it has to be submitted directly, but I may be wrong on that. When you meet conditions using the Embassy located Consulate is usually not that problematic. It is when normal rules have to be bent a bit that the local Consulate may be able to sway in the wind a bit further.

[Farang-Kha]

Yes, BUT, what I am driving at by not codified is that I am guessing that the prohibition is against working IN Thailand.

Is working for a non-Thai company and paid in non-Thai money to a non-Thai bank account by a body physically in Thailand technically working IN Thailand as now written in Thai law?

I am guessing it is not covered because it is such a modern phenom.

So, if it is not covered, it MAY not technically be illegal.

Of course, that doesn't mean an overzealous officer might interpret it another way.

Another way to look at this, perhaps a rationalization, is that clearly such activity is not a threat to any Thai nationals employment, which is clearly the intention of these work prohibitions.

You sound like you feel the need to have no legal ambiguity in your life and have come to the conclusion that you can't do this.

Your tax analogy is interesting. I had an 8000 dollar gain last year that one tax advisor says is taxable and another says is not taxable. I am hiring the second advisor.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thank you again. I love the phrase 'legal ambiguity'....

Perhaps I'm being too cautious? Please bear in mind that I don't have the wealth of experience many of you all have of living in Thailand. You know the ropes, the pitfalls and how near the edge you can go. I've little doubt some people have been a little too close to the edge for comfort, or even fallen over the precipice, too. I'd like to learn from that. I don't have any of that sort of experience of Thailand, and I don't want to fall foul of what I might have thought was a simple thing to do, but in fact turned out to be a victim of " that's the first thing anyone with any nouse who lives here, learns"

No - I don't think I have come to the conclusion that I can't do it, but (1) I'd love to know if there's a risk involved in doing it and - if so - (2) what the penalty is that I'm risking. If it's patently illegal, then I know the answer to (2), I feel.......If the answer to (1) is "not much", then maybe I'd be seen in the ranks of the legally ambiguous...

[Thaiquila]

Well, and please do not make your decision on my opinion, yes, clearly I do think there is some risk.

How much of a risk probably depends on your behavior and luck.

You would need to be discreet about it.

But there are lots of scenarios where you could get tripped up. For example, you get romantically involved with a Thai who will obviously know about your life and it goes sour, then maybe a call to immigration in revenge?

I really have no idea whether it is technically legal or illegal (because I suspect that it is not specifically covered in Thai law), so I think getting a Thai legal opinion was a good idea, though not foolproof.

I still go back to the visa issue. The visa you will be on says no work. You are saying I am not working, because you believe the working offshore is enough of a grey area it would be OK to say you are not working, that what they really meant was working in the Thai economy. I think most every adult has faced such situations in life, and most behave in what they think will be in their best self interest.

I think this forum is a good place to raise these questions, and I hope others with more experience with this issue will post.

However, bottom line, everyone has to make their own risk reward decisions about such issues. No guarantees.

Edited July 9, 2005 by Thaiquila

[Steve2UK]

However, bottom line, everyone has to make their own risk reward decisions about such issues. No guarantees.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Very good advice. The "grey" areas in Thailand offer many opportunities that aren't available in "black and white" situations more common in the west. It reminds me of the debate about how safe it is to take the company route for land purchase (on the Koh Samui sub-forum); when I raised that issue with a very well-placed and experienced adviser, his advice was "If you're the type of guy who is totally risk adverse, then maybe Thailand is not for you".

It seems clear that the overwhelming majority of the people who engage in a bit of discreet activity (and probably all the sensible ones) have no problem at all. I do get the sense sometimes that Thailand actually likes it like this - and hence the annual renewal process to allow discretion.

There's a school of thought that says "don't tie up any more in Thailand than you can afford to walk away from". My take is that that's bordering on the paranoid, but I think it's not a bad principle to have tucked away at the back of one's mind (but way at the back).

I think it's clear from the informed posts so far that there isn't a clear-cut (black and white) rule that applies here - and who wants to be the test case that provides one? The middle way works - leave it at that and stop looking for absolute guarantees. With all due respect to the OP, it starts to feel a bit like wanting to have one's cake and eat it.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Well said. Thanks

[Farang-Kha]

Well, and please do not make your decision on my opinion, yes, clearly I do think there is some risk.

How much of a risk probably depends on your behavior and luck.

You would need to be discreet about it.

But there are lots of scenarios where you could get tripped up. For example, you get romantically involved with a Thai who will obviously know about your life and it goes sour, then maybe a call to immigration in revenge?

I really have no idea whether it is technically legal or illegal (because  I suspect that it is not specifically covered in Thai law), so I think getting a Thai legal opinion was a good idea, though not foolproof.

I still go back to the visa issue. The visa you will be on says no work. You are saying I am not working, because you believe the working offshore is enough of a grey area it would be OK to say you are not working, that what they really meant was working in the Thai economy.  I think most every adult has faced such situations in life, and most behave in what they think will be in their best self interest.

I think this forum is a good place to raise these questions, and I hope others with more experience with this issue will post.

However, bottom line, everyone has to make their own risk reward decisions about such issues. No guarantees.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thank you very much for this well-reasoned and sensible reply. I would like to think that I am adult enough to be able to asess the risks, and do what I feel is best in my own interests once I have done. While you have not pretended to know the definitive answer, your insight ond sheer good common-sense has been extremely useful to me. Thank you