Thailand to tax residents’ foreign income irrespective of remittance

[Orita]

According to a recent study, there are about 4000 Christian Missionaries living in and around Chiang Mai.

This must be the highest per capita concentration of missionaries anywhere on the planet.

One hardly sees a hill-tribe village, never mind how remote, without a Christian church, and missionaries

are hyper active throughout the region.

I am curios by what attracts them particularly to this part of the globe. Any insides?

[villagefarang]

"Any insides?"

I'm afraid that examining the 'insides' of missionaries, however appealing that idea may be to you, might be frowned upon in certain circles.

[Jingthing]

They are attracted to what they consider primitive heathens. Why they are allowed so many visas to attack the local culture is beyond me.

[THAILIBAN]

because they have - for some reason - been chased away from almost anywhere else in South-East-Asia (Cambo, for example).

Hilltribes are an easy prey as the Thai society does not care too much about them

[lovelomsak]

I believe if you did a little research you would find that many of the christian churchs are built by foundations. These foundations can get access to lots of money if ran properly. I think if you research it even more you will find the foundations are owned and ran by rich thais. It is a simple cash grab.

[JimShortz]

I might get slammed a little for this, but I thought there were so many (I'm concentrating on Americans here, I'll do a Korean post later if there is demand! ) because:

1. You get your church back home to pay you an American wage whilst you live in Thailand with much lower living expenses.
2. It allows you to send your kids to Grace International and so get a virtually free high quality (American colonial?) international education, paid for by poor unsuspecting church contributors back home.
3. You can now live in a 20,000 Baht plus (rent) home in World club and eat out with the family at Dukes, Sojo's etc. on a regular basis with all your spare cash.
4. You get at least one large SUV to ferry the family around in - I'm sure they are not free, but all seem to have them...
5. You can have a maid full time; something completely unattainable back home. The list goes on...

Should I get my coat? Flack jacket?

Now I might be being a bit disingenuous, but it does seem to me that REAL Christian would forego a lot of this and ensure that the cash was spent on ruining the spiritual life of the natives... instead of doing the really Christian thing and LEAVING THEM THE <deleted> ALONE!

Although... maybe I'm wrong? What do you think? Maybe they are doing really valuable work, and making good use of church funds, saving souls, being selfless, and making the world a better place. God knows it needs it!

...and maybe I came to Thailand for the food and culture... :jap:

[virtualtraveller]

Jim Shortz pretty much sums it all up, I live not far from Grace school - epicentre of Missionary activity in Chiang Mai, I'm sure they're all decent god-fearing people who try to do no wrong but you can't help being cynical, most of them are American, and very American, straight out of the heartland, continuing life here as if they were in Kansas all wherever, while other American expats here have blended into the international community quite well.

Basically life's good in Chiang Mai, you get to live in neighbourhood full of American missionaries, get to shop for Reeces Pieces and other things you miss from home, at Rim Ping Supermarket, eat good hearty calorie-laden food at Dukes (tasty food btw) every Sunday at 300 baht a meal, drive your SUV around, and generally feel good about yourself because you get to report back to the sponsoring church back home that you've converted 50 heathen Buddhist souls since your last summer visit back home. What a satisfying life eh? Many of the families I've met have about 5 offspring, I bet you struggle to properly raise that many good Christian kids back home, even with the Grace of God.

I won't decry them building churches in all the Akha villages if they are also building schools and generally advancing their prosperity. They do act rather zealously about their turf however, the running joke is that when one missionary meets another they cagely ask 'so, who are you with?'

Bless their souls.

[gotlost]

I always see them pedaling their bikes down Loi Khro Road every day. Must be looking for a discount.

[sevenhills]

Jim Shortz pretty much sums it all up, I live not far from Grace school - epicentre of Missionary activity in Chiang Mai, I'm sure they're all decent god-fearing people who try to do no wrong but you can't help being cynical, most of them are American, and very American, straight out of the heartland, continuing life here as if they were in Kansas all wherever, while other American expats here have blended into the international community quite well.

Basically life's good in Chiang Mai, you get to live in neighbourhood full of American missionaries, get to shop for Reeces Pieces and other things you miss from home, at Rim Ping Supermarket, eat good hearty calorie-laden food at Dukes (tasty food btw) every Sunday at 300 baht a meal, drive your SUV around, and generally feel good about yourself because you get to report back to the sponsoring church back home that you've converted 50 heathen Buddhist souls since your last summer visit back home. What a satisfying life eh? Many of the families I've met have about 5 offspring, I bet you struggle to properly raise that many good Christian kids back home, even with the Grace of God.

I won't decry them building churches in all the Akha villages if they are also building schools and generally advancing their prosperity. They do act rather zealously about their turf however, the running joke is that when one missionary meets another they cagely ask 'so, who are you with?'

Bless their souls.

Agree, There leaches and parasites and have been all around the 3rd. World for centuries spreading their bullshit and western diseases etc.. Get a real job and stop preying on undereducated, poor, naive people.

[eek]

Moving to Chiang Mai forum.

[Jingthing]

Yeah these are the kinds of Americans I was happy to leave back in America. At least they leave me alone in Thailand (hopeless case).

[amexpat]

"Any insides?"

I'm afraid that examining the 'insides' of missionaries, however appealing that idea may be to you, might be frowned upon in certain circles.

At least not before they are properly boiled.

[Jingthing]

"Any insides?"

I'm afraid that examining the 'insides' of missionaries, however appealing that idea may be to you, might be frowned upon in certain circles.

At least not before they are properly boiled.

The southern ones go best deep fried.

[eek]

For discussions sake..keeping a relatively open mind..and viewing it from a different perspective.. whats the alternative really?

Now..i am not religious...my query stems from concern for people who may not have any other alternative. I would much prefer charitable organisations help in ways that aid the local communities rather than alter them, and, of course, without any hidden agenda. However, these organisations DO provide when there is no one else providing.

Ive watched several documentaries on this, as well as attended lectures. THat doesnt make me an expert of course, not even a fraction close..however, i did find it interesting to hear from the Hill Tribe peoples perspectives. Many just go along with the religious aspect purely for what they get in exchange, but still hold and practice their own beliefs at home. Some really do convert to Christianity, but still hold onto established traditions. If i were to consider it on a personal level from the local/Hill tribe persons perspective..and was offered education for my children, and aid/provisions etc..and in turn have to listen to some blah blah about religion..im sure I would attend mass or whatever was required in order to gain this.

Again, i personally would prefer no agenda, but what are the alternatives? If people need help..what are we personally doing to help them? Or, should we just sit back and let them get on with it, even if they want help, in the name of not interfering in their community? Even, if its at the expense of their quality of life/health/opportunities..etc...

I just dont know really..i have no answer. But i think its very easy to criticize, but then do nothing to actively and positively help where help is required.

Would like to discuss this in a rational way please. An exchanging of considered thought on this would be nice.

[Jingthing]

Where do you draw the line Eek? What if they were radical Islamists doing the conversions for benefits? Would that be OK? How about a cult? Many people including me believe the Mormons ARE a cult and they are very active here. I am not Christian but making getting help CONDITIONAL on conversion can't be very Christian (in the purest sense, which is of course hard to find these days).

Edited August 8, 2010 by Jingthing

[eek]

"Where do you draw the line Eek?" < I have no idea really. You pose a very good question.

Do you consider the christian organisations here quite radical (some/all)? My knowledge is not in depth, I can only go by what little i have learned. Of course that could be propaganda. Have no idea what goes on behind "closed doors".

I hope to hear more views and have further discussion.

[elektrified]

Being that the moobaan I live in is about 50% farang these days and that 49% of them are Christian missionaries, I too, often wondered how they were able to get visas (some have been here longer than the 2 years I've lived in this moobaan), how they can afford to eat at Miguels and Dukes so often, drive new SUV's, shop at Rimping, etc.

About a year ago or so I was invited to a free concert at the Municipal Stadium where supposedly a famous Australian female vocalist was going to perform. I went and it turned out to be a born-again Christian affair. There must have been 200+ hill tribe people there rejoicing and singing the religious songs. It was an amazing sight.

[elektrified]

Where do you draw the line Eek? What if they were radical Islamists doing the conversions for benefits? Would that be OK? How about a cult? Many people including me believe the Mormons ARE a cult and they are very active here. I am not Christian but making getting help CONDITIONAL on conversion can't be very Christian (in the purest sense, which is of course hard to find these days).

There are a LOT of Mormons living here; both farang and converted Thais. Many live right here in the moobaan. There are also many Jehovah's Witness here; Thai and farang.

[sudo]

Going back to the original question, which is why there seems to be so many missionaries here. I believe one of the main reasons is that thailand is surrounded by countries that are hostile to christianity, and here in the north it is easy to travel to their main target countries, while keeping a home base in Chiang Mai.

Burma, Lao and China as far as I know do not allow missionaries to enter their countries, so missionaries to these countries often live here in thailand and travel to and from regularly. This provides numerous advantages, the main one being that they don't have to setup a front to be able to get visas and permission to stay in the hostile countries, and live in fear of their whole family being arrested, etc. So once you factor that in, along with the numerous western schools, churches, food available in Chiang Mai, it makes it an obvious choice for a mission home base.

Now on to the side issue, thats been brought up about the missionaries just living here to benefit themselves. As a christian myself (I'm not a missionary), I too often have trouble trying to stomach some of the behaviour that I see from a small minority of missionaries, but almost all I have met in my shortish time here, live a comfortable yet simple life, and focus their efforts on the communities they are working with.

Jingthing and some of the other self described cynics and 'hopeless cases', I will pray that god will be working in your lives, and that someday you guys might come to understand and believe in Jesus.

[getgoin]

Chiang Mai just happens to be a hub for the missionaries/Christians in Asia in general. The cost of living is relatively low and they have built themselves a nice not for profit school that boards students and teaches to western standards that they are familiar with. Many of these missionaries/Christians also do relief work and many do not work for churches but work for NGOs and charitable groups. Many just happen to be Christian. Many do not work in and around Chiang Mai. Many charitable and NGO groups moved their head quarters to Chiang Mai to save on costs from Singapore, Bangkok and Hong Kong.

If you look around the Chiang Mai countryside in general you will find that many of these groups that are working here are involved in building infrastructure for the many neglected non-Thai villages, they support/manage/run many of the orphanages for discarded Thai and non-Thai children, they have homes for battered and abused girls and they are involved in helping the Burmese refugees.

While this subject has been batted around numerous times by the also-self-righteous, predominately most of the relief workers/missionaries/Christians are not in Chiang Mai to convert the heathens but rather to help the less fortunate. This might be equated with the average male poster on Thaivisa that is spending money on beer and girls. Both help the locals but in a different way. To group people into a particular racial/spiritual/ethnic bias is just another form of bigotry and is one with which many of those here feel is somehow warranted and/or rationalized simply because they believe otherwise.

While there is a small group of those that are in business to convert they are a minority in the group and it would be similar to equating the one out of control drunk at the bar foreigner with all foreigners.

While you are at your next roof top garden fund raiser drinking wine and feeling good for a day because you are helping someone less fortunate than yourself you can think about the 10 relief workers/missionaries/Christians who were just executed in Afghanistan and know that these are people that do what they do not just for a day of feeling good or to convert a few lost souls.

[Jingthing]

Jingthing and some of the other self described cynics and 'hopeless cases', I will pray that god will be working in your lives, and that someday you guys might come to understand and believe in Jesus.

Please don't do that to anyone who doesn't ASK for it, OK?

[whiterussian]

This thread hasn't got long to run...

but while it's still walking this earth...

Over in the McKean rehabilitation hospital (near Global House area), there is a group of German missionairies, who have set up pony/horse rides around the beautiful acres of land that was founded by an Australian missionary over a hundred years ago. Rides suitable for small kids. Be nice to see this kind of business venture succeed.

It's a really special place. Hundreds of acres. An oasis in CM. Untouched for 100 years. I jog everyday there to recharge. I'm plugging it because they seem like nice people. And at the end of the day,

all you need is ....

to "Take Care of Yourself, and Each Other.".. as Jerry Springer would say.

Here endeth the post.

Edited August 8, 2010 by whiterussian

[Johpa]

The Thai State has long profited from the presence of Christian missionaries, they represent a nice source of steady income that has been around for generation. There is also a small yet economically powerful Thai-Christian elite in Bangkok that is aligned politically with what we call the "old guard" down there. Thus they represent a conservative political presence with long standing connections to the highest ranks of the Thai polity and serve as a bridge to other conservative Christian groups in the west. Many of the long-term missionaries, especially the Baptist and Catholics, have Thai citizenship, as do their children. They have provided superior secondary education options to the children of the Thai elite for generations without requiring conversions to Christianity. In fact, one of the reasons they are so tolerated is that they make little headway within Thai Buddhist circles. They are given the highland minorities as a bone to keep them around in such numbers, and to keep the money flowing and to keep those schools going.

The hill people have long been successful targets as their lives and traditions, including their belief systems, have been under tremendous pressure for past several hundred years. The missionary activity amongst the hill people began with the British in Burma, having found a receptive audience that lent itself to the Empire's divide and conquer strategy. So today you find mostly Christian hill tribe villages in Thailand and a large number of missionaries to tend to these flocks. And yes, it attracts missionaries for the same reason that Thailand attracts other types of tourists, the ability to live far more comfortably for any given income than back home.

[jayjay0]

Yes there has been much good brought in by the missionaries McCormick hospital was started by them. I have only had two occasions to interact with them the first one was in a internet cafe and he was on the skype phone. I personally was appalled at what I heard. Having some what of a open mind I chalked it up as just one man. My next one was with a man who as far as I know has helped a lot of people. I only know this by watching from the side Lines we live in the same building. We have mutual friends and some of them are close with him and talk well of him.

That being said I have a friend who's wife is Thai from a small village. One of the stories he related to me was that several missionaries of different faiths had been in the village with a modest bit of success in conversions. Now people who have always got along with each other are a lot less friendlier to there former friends. Take that one for what you want.

For myself I think they have a great of love and knowledge to pass on. As a former Christian [ I am now a reborn again Pagan.] I can except what they have to say just as easy as I can any other religion. It doesn't matter. But I must admit I have a bit of a problem with the Muslim faith. I let the work of some of the Koran believers influence me. I also have a hard time when I see a Muslim women dressed from head to toe in black with just a hole to see through in 100 degree plus weather while her husband wanders around in light colored clothing. That is my problem.

One final thought Why don't they send some missionaries to Ireland they could use more Christianity? OK that was a low blow

[Goshawk]

I might get slammed a little for this, but I thought there were so many (I'm concentrating on Americans here, I'll do a Korean post later if there is demand! ) because:

1. You get your church back home to pay you an American wage whilst you live in Thailand with much lower living expenses.
2. It allows you to send your kids to Grace International and so get a virtually free high quality (American colonial?) international education, paid for by poor unsuspecting church contributors back home.
3. You can now live in a 20,000 Baht plus (rent) home in World club and eat out with the family at Dukes, Sojo's etc. on a regular basis with all your spare cash.
4. You get at least one large SUV to ferry the family around in - I'm sure they are not free, but all seem to have them...
5. You can have a maid full time; something completely unattainable back home. The list goes on...

Should I get my coat? Flack jacket?

Now I might be being a bit disingenuous, but it does seem to me that REAL Christian would forego a lot of this and ensure that the cash was spent on ruining the spiritual life of the natives... instead of doing the really Christian thing and LEAVING THEM THE &lt;deleted&gt; ALONE!

yep... an honest spot on & accurate boiling down of these farang groups.. CM is full of these types & they make me sick.. (there may be some genuine ones...?!?)

in particular, & here is where i'm qualified to give my opinion, nice observation about 'World Club land'... Mrs Gossy's very young & impressionable niece was almost suckered into a 'group' there until i found out, stepped in & got her out of what appeared to me to be nothing more than a laughable & pathetic weekly brainwashing gathering who's motives seemed at best 'dubious' whilst simultaneously telling them to quit interfering with a society that needs no spiritual saving whatsoever (they've been doing quite fine with Buddha for a good few years now..) before telling them where to stick their 'spreading of the True word' message as we left.. (as i remember, there was an Audi TT on the drive... Hmmm...)

[Thighlander]

I might get slammed a little for this, but I thought there were so many (I'm concentrating on Americans here, I'll do a Korean post later if there is demand! ) because:

1. You get your church back home to pay you an American wage whilst you live in Thailand with much lower living expenses.
2. It allows you to send your kids to Grace International and so get a virtually free high quality (American colonial?) international education, paid for by poor unsuspecting church contributors back home.
3. You can now live in a 20,000 Baht plus (rent) home in World club and eat out with the family at Dukes, Sojo's etc. on a regular basis with all your spare cash.
4. You get at least one large SUV to ferry the family around in - I'm sure they are not free, but all seem to have them...
5. You can have a maid full time; something completely unattainable back home. The list goes on...

Should I get my coat? Flack jacket?

Now I might be being a bit disingenuous, but it does seem to me that REAL Christian would forego a lot of this and ensure that the cash was spent on ruining the spiritual life of the natives... instead of doing the really Christian thing and LEAVING THEM THE &lt;deleted&gt; ALONE!

Although... maybe I'm wrong? What do you think? Maybe they are doing really valuable work, and making good use of church funds, saving souls, being selfless, and making the world a better place. God knows it needs it!

...and maybe I came to Thailand for the food and culture... :jap:

I agree with about all of this. Appearances are everything, especially in Thailand. Lots of teachers need to learn the same thing.

I wonder how many of them claim to have converted their housekeepers? The pastor at my parents church makes about 100K per year (USD); he's worth about 30K, and would be worth about 5K in Chiangmai. It's also hilarious that the Rimping Supermarket is right there in missionaryville; I would almost never shop there.

[jaideeguy]

Simple.....the 'hill tribes' are easy prey for their mission of 'stealing souls' and the christian missionaries can live in the cheap comfort that LOS has to offer. They are somewhat like the scavengers of the jungle and it is sad, the damage they do. Stealing another person's soul is about as low as a person can go IMHO.

I saw the same same in the Philippines where the born again Koreans bribed the poor heathen souls with trinkets to get them to come and pray with them.

Another tactic they used was to 'doccument' the hill tribe languages and make dictionaries.....then only give them bibles to read.

Don't get me going on this........I could cite many other crimes against culture that the christians have done, starting with the mass murder of the American Indians in the name of the church.

[L&J]

Land Of Opportunity-

Why so many Christian Missionaries? Why so many old men pursuing young women and young men?

Do you need a anthropological tome on why you find this happening in Thailand or might it

suffice to accept the fact that the conditions here result in so many people finding what they want in Thailand. They find it much easier to pursue their interests here in Thailand than they do in whatever country they come from and they don't want the real challenge of living that lifestyle in Saudi Arabia or the Congo. It's always been easier to shoot fish in a barrel particularly if you don't care how the fish get there in the first place.

[ronz28]

I might get slammed a little for this, but I thought there were so many (I'm concentrating on Americans here, I'll do a Korean post later if there is demand! ) because:

1. You get your church back home to pay you an American wage whilst you live in Thailand with much lower living expenses.
2. It allows you to send your kids to Grace International and so get a virtually free high quality (American colonial?) international education, paid for by poor unsuspecting church contributors back home.
3. You can now live in a 20,000 Baht plus (rent) home in World club and eat out with the family at Dukes, Sojo's etc. on a regular basis with all your spare cash.
4. You get at least one large SUV to ferry the family around in - I'm sure they are not free, but all seem to have them...
5. You can have a maid full time; something completely unattainable back home. The list goes on...

Should I get my coat? Flack jacket?

Now I might be being a bit disingenuous, but it does seem to me that REAL Christian would forego a lot of this and ensure that the cash was spent on ruining the spiritual life of the natives... instead of doing the really Christian thing and LEAVING THEM THE &lt;deleted&gt; ALONE!

Although... maybe I'm wrong? What do you think? Maybe they are doing really valuable work, and making good use of church funds, saving souls, being selfless, and making the world a better place. God knows it needs it!

...and maybe I came to Thailand for the food and culture... :jap:

I agree, it can be a big tax dodge too. There are so many of these "missionaries" that its disgusting. If the church people back home Understood the religion of the Thai people and knew how their money is being spent they wouldn't tithe another dime.

[canuckamuck]

Wow, they eat at Duke's, they take advantage of lower living costs, they don't pay taxes, and they send their kids to international schools? What horrible creatures!

I am glad that most of the posters here are simply here to embrace to culture and blend seamlessly into all things Thai, Always happy for the double pricing, never having an opinion on politics or the way things are done here. Also never searching endlessly for the latest western product available and making a Google map about it.

Next thing you know, these monsters will want to take up golf, oh the humanity!!!