Work Permit For The Self-Employed Foreigner

[exlaw]

Steve,

Agreed. The Thai government is very helpful in these types of situations. And, they may in fact suggest hiring a contractor in the event that a company is on the cusp of small vs. large. The tax strucuture is an attempt by the Thai governemnt to help small businesses which would be overly burdened by high tax rates. At some point, the advice will tip to the side of "you should have raised your capital". If the company is very profitable, and has one or two or three or ?? contractors, on any given day any given tax official may decide that this company should no longer qualify for the tax breaks set aside for a small company. And, on that given day, they may decide that this scheme of hiring contractors is a direct attempt to avoid paying tax that the company is legally obliged to pay. They might. Ive seen it. Not in this exact scenario, but a similar one.

I 100% believe you that Thai govt officials are helpful and that you have extensive experience in these matters. Others in this forum have some as well. Personally I've seen the tax office levy millions of baht in late fees and fines and back taxes for schemes which were "perfectly legal" and the accountants and lawyers had advised putting them in place. I was brought in at the clean up stage, and, upon review, I do believe that the accountants and lawyers were giving their honest and best legal advice, however, the tax office saw things differently. And sure, this is always a risk in business in any country. I also agree, you are correct, the tax official wasnt being predatory or agressive, he simply saw the world differently, and his judgement was the final answer, not the lawyer, or the accountant, or the businessmen in charge. No one went to jail, and no one was personally penalized in any way, it was a simple and friendly business transaction that cost the company and its shareholders a significant amount of cash. And. It did happen. Nothing is bullet proof or "perfectly" legal. Your statements project a level of confidence and security which I personally believe is slightly misleading. It can apply in 95% of the cases, if all those cases are legit and above board, but not all. And when it doesnt, it can be severe.

For instance, scenario #1 "Someone who is married to a Thai, receives income independent of any Thai employer, but does not wish to "freeze" 400,000 baht in a Thai bank account somewhere for months at a time. So - that individual needs to show that they are paying personal income tax on a legal Thai monthly employment income of at least 40,000 baht."

Agreed,he marriage visa requirement is quite simple. 400k in the bank for several months if the individual has no job. The point is to show they have enough resources to spend their year in Thailand without working. OR they can have a job with a 40k/mo income, which is another show of evidence they can support themselves while staying in Thailand.

Legally speaking if they are working, even independently, in Thailand, they should already have a work permit and paying taxes, so your service "making them legal" to avoid the 400k rule is highly suspect. The 400k rule is the visa rule, not the work permit rule. If they are working in thailand, they should already have work permit, and if, the income comes from work outside of Thailand, then it is also suspect that your new spin on the definition of their 'work' would warrant a new opening and a work permit. Either they are working in Thailand, or they arent, and your service isnt to offer them jobs, but rather to "legalize" new openings. The way it is presented here, it doesnt fall into that category without some serious spin and wordsmithing. Can it be done. Yes. It can. I've seen it done successfully over and over again. Does it mean it is perfectly legal ?? Depends what the imigration official decides.

All the paperwork, permit, visa and job could be legal, but the way you present it is in an effort to avoid a requirement rather than an effort to be legit. If you offered the service as you outlined in #2, #3, or #4 then, they decided to apply for a marriage visa afterwords so be it. That would be a more convincing story that your service is intended to be perfectly legit and help honest people with real jobs. Pesonally, I believe that is why the majoriy of respondents have had a negative reaction to your service. It gives the appearance of using dubious definitions to leverage legal tools in an effort to avoid legal restrictions. The downside risk to the user is, if Thai govt officials ever decide that those definitions are too dubious for their tastes, there is little you can do for your clients at that point.

In my personal case where the company had to pay millions of baht in fines, late fees and back taxes.....I didnt see the lawyers and accountants who gave the legal advice reaching for their wallets.

But hey, if it is all legit as you say. Then great. Good luck. Some of the end liability rests with the client, and as with anything which is "perfectly" legal. Caveot emptor.

[Indo-Siam]

Regarding the marriage scenario, I will give you the actual case history of past client: (?) means I do not recall exactly

45 (?) years old, UK citizen, married to a Thai, she was 4 (?) months pregnant

He owned four (?) rental flats in UK, bringing him 120,000 baht(?) per month in income. He and wife spent 90,000 (?) baht per month in living expenses. They had started building a house in Thailand, and had no significant savings here that were not already invested in the house.

He had a property management company/office taking care of collections in the UK, and sending him the money each month.

Now, he wanted to stay with the pregnant wife, and oversee construction, and not have to make visa runs several times per year. But - he would have to wait 14 months to accumulate 400,000 baht in a Thai bank, given his 30,000 baht monthly surplus.

So - he had us hire him, and invoice the UK property company for the 120,000 baht each month - and we kept an agreed-upon piece of the money (for profit, social fund, tax withholding, etc.), and gave him the rest. He chose to run all the income through us, not just the 40,000 baht minimum (I think maybe he was thinking ahead to applying for PR status). His work permit was as a consultant to provide outsourced management consulting services to overseas property management companies - working in the office, or from home. Yes, I remember that the "home" part was questioned at the work permit office - and they were perfectly happy with the answer that "most his work was after Thailand business hours, he lived far from the office (Thonburi), and he had to take care of a pregnant wife, and watch over home construction."

Everything went fine for about 6-8 months. Then he sold one of his property units in the UK, put 400,000 baht in the bank for several months, used another big chunk to finish their house - and told us "Thank you very much, goodbye". We had originally planned 12 months - but - no hard feelings.

THERE WAS NOTHING WRONG OR IMPROPER ABOUT THE ARRANGEMENT IN ANY WAY.

He probably spent three hours a week communicating (I assume by e-mail) with the UK property office - and maybe occasionally with a tenant - and evidently with a real estate agent, and maybe with several potential buyers. Maybe some phone calls (or Skype calls). I don't know, but most of this communication was probably in the evening. He and we did not try to claim any business expenses from his activities. He came to the office twice ever - once to meet and discuss a company start-up, and once to meet the lady who would handle his administration. We paid him by direct deposit to his Thai bank. We gave him the monthly invoices made out to UK company, and he presumably forwarded them to the UK. (In any case, the money came in)

Given his situation, this was a completely proper way to operate. He could have started his own company - and that is what he came to me for in the first place. But - when I suggested the "employer of record" program, and he ran the numbers, it was no contest. What I did not know at the time was that he was in the process of trying to sell a UK property so that he could switch to the 400,000 baht spouse extension program - and that if he started a company, he would then need to close that company later. But - that did not matter. The employer of record program is month to month - although I am not really interested in anyone planning on shorter than about a year. But - customers are not "indentured servants" - and situations change - and we cheerfully do our part, even if things run a lot shorter than we expected.

From a Thai government perspective, there was nothing wrong here. He (and we) were taking his situation, and making that situation fit into the Thai rulebook. I never thought about it, but I suppose that prior to coming to us, he was "working illegally in Thailand." But the Thai government would not have had any problem with what he was doing before (technically, foreigners should pay tax on income brought into Thailand - but they do not even have a functioning process to even deal with this issue). But - the Thai government would NOT have let him say longer than 90 days at a time.

We did what was necessary to bring his situation into artificial compliance with Thai rules - and that is all that Thailand asks.

Based on what I have seen, every single person who has claimed otherwise on this thread is wrong about that one issue. Thailand has no problem with foreigners who have an "unconventional" situation - as long as the foreigner makes the effort to do what is necessary to make that situation fit into Thai rules and processes.

The next part does not apply to the people who put creative thought and effort into questioning, exploring, and critiquing my proposals - playing Devil's Advocate in a constructive sense.

What irritates me is that I know that here are people who frequent this discussion forum who fit EXACTLY into several or all of the six scenarios that I laid out - and they are presently operating (or planning to operate) illegally - by working illegally - and the solution that I have proposed would meet their needs very well - but now that a bunch of shallow, anonymous malcontents - who do not really what they are talking about - have proclaimed my proposals as being "dodgy" or "illegal" , and likely to bring intense negative scrutiny and punishment by all sorts of Thai Government offices - Immigration, Labor, Revenue - these people who need a solution will instead continue to operate illegally, figuring that it is better to try to sneak by through just maintaining a low profile.

Now I'll tel you something that is true, that I have NEVER seen mentioned on the Thai Visa board: If you live in Thailand without a work permit for several/many years - and your passport shows that you have effectively resided here for many years - and you FINALLY get hired for a real job - and you happily apply for that first work permit - you can be turned down solely on the basis of being unable to prove how you existed over all those years without a work permit, without working illegally in Thailand.

This does not happen to all such applicants - but I have seen it happen, several times. The most shocking case was an American who was applying for a work permit to work for a BOI company. He had been resident in Thailand for six years. The first two years, he was attending the Sasin full time MBA program, from which he graduated. The last two years, he was employed as a program adviser at the Kennan Institute Asia (http://www.kiasia.org/web/). During the middle two years, he worked illegally for an export trading company that was trying to obtain venture capital funding - working out of the Times Square Building. His BOI work permit was rejected - solely because he could not document what he was doing during the middle two years, when his passport showed that he was present in Thailand.

Cheers!

Steve

It doesn't matter how many times you fail. It doesn't matter how many times you almost get it right. No one is going to know or care about your failures, and neither should you. All you have to do is learn from them and those around you because... All that matters in business is that you get it right once. Then everyone can tell you how lucky you are. - Mark Cuban

[Sunny Valentine]

A very interesting discussion indeed.

Thanks for the two posters who not only argue their standpoints in detail, but never let loose of the big picture in which this issue takes place.

Now, let me first state I am not a lawyer, and definitely not any kind of expert in Thai laws.

But what I have seen here in the 7 Years I live and mostly work (legally) here, I can see a large dichotomy between the statements by exlaw and what i and many others I know of experience as reality.

* When I applied for my fist WP, I had in mind that the capital requirements for married (to a Thai) WP holders were 1 Million per WP. The lawyer I intended to use for creating the company and later my WP did not know about that, so I went to another lawyer. This one told me he knows about the rule, but, after speaking with the person at the Labor Department (Let's call him Somchai) he told me a WP would not be granted as the person there claims to never have heard of it. A third lawyer, the same story. And a fourth, and then I went for a 2 Million Baht Co. No big deal, but some (for me) significant costs ...

* A friend of mine, who lives here for more than 5 Years, was always using the 400000 in Bank in order to obtain his Marriage Permission to stay.

First time he paid a possibly shady agent to sort all things out, no problems, and he received his first One Year permission within a week or two. His papers were all in order, and by all means I don't think he had done anything illegal. He paid 10000 or more for the services of one of the many little legal assistance service shophouses you see so many of them in Pattaya and elsewhere, usually run by the wife, sister or brother of a higher ranking immigration official.

Next Year he decided to go on his own, he collected all documents, went to Immigration to confirm the requirements, and applied for extension. It was granted after 6 month, with month-to-month temporary extensions being given. This caused a lot of troubles for him, as his Mother got seriously ill a few days before he had to show up again, and he was told that if he fails to show up on the day stamped his process would be canceled and he could not apply new for another Year. Misinformation, as you and I know, but we both don't know how much power the official uttering these words has ... let's call him Somchai too.

Another Year, and now with new rules intact that the money must be in the Bank for 2 Month (thats what the law says) or 3 Month (thats what, let's call him Somchai, says). My friend is living off his offshore investments, he has a reasonable income, and the 400000 isn't a real hurdle for him. But it still is a substantial amount of money. Anyway, more than three month before extension he topped up his Thai account well over 400000. While waiting, he mainly used other financial means for his daily expenses, but one night, and he stated to me he might have been a little drunk, and did not think of the consequences, he cashed in 10000 at an ATM, thereby dropping his funds a little bit (less than 1000) under the 400000 mark. He paid in enough the next morning, but this flaw was enough for the Immigration officer (Let's call him Somchai) to refuse his extension, sending him abroad for a new Non-O Visa.

This time my friend thought he learned enough, so he got the Visa, and did not touch the Bank Book at all, until coming to Immigration again for an extension. The officer (let's call him Somchai) browsed through the Bank Book, and stated that the fact that the Book had no recent transactions could be used against the grant of his extension, as it looked suspicious, and made him (let's call him Somchai) believe my friend is illegally working in order to pay for his living.

I have more stories to tell, about the labor Department refusing to allow people to do any kind of work outside their office, and more.

These stories all involve Somchai, in one way or the other. Let me make it clear that not two Somchais here are the same person, but they are all real. They are in middle to slightly higher positions in Thai government agencies, and they have little contempt about the legality of their actions. They make up rules, ignore others, and are set to make the life of a lot of us miserable.

Maybe in the field of big businesses these Somchais have no say. Some people tell me it is so, and others tell me it ain't. I don't know.

But I have the feeling that exlaw has never experienced the power and persistence of Somchai.

And I like to state that we need an IndoSiam for every Somchai on the block. His methods offered here might be verging on the brink of legality a little bit, maybe, or maybe not, I can't argue that. But I see his efforts as a necessary counterpoint to all the Somchais in various government agencies I have experienced.

Once Thailand gets rid of the Somchais, and straightens up their sometimes crazy foreigner Immigration and working laws, he might be out of business. But until then ....

[exlaw]

Sunny,

Agree 100% with you. And yes. I have experienced the power of Khun Somchai many times. You are correct. It would be great to have the law, and the rules, applied evenhandedly across the board. They are not. That is the crux of my issue with Steve's plan. He portrays his service is indestructible. Bulletproof. 100% secure and without flaw.

Everything you experienced, should tell you, it is not. As I've offered before 95% of the time, sure, but it is the 5% of which to be wary. Indo Siam, Steve, uses terms with consistency which relay the idea of the ultimate insurance plan. "It is Perfectly Legal" "Completely Legal" "bring his situation into artificial compliance with Thai rules" "Nothing wrong here" etc

In your example, your friend did nothing wrong. Nothing illegal when he put 400K in his bank book and didnt touch it for a year. Somchai thought otherwise and your friend was burned. And at what point will Khun Somchai, who rules the 5% of the wary times, accept situations which are brought into "artificial compliance" with Thai rules. That is the rub. And my guess would be, that is the conflict which all the 'negative' posters saw straight away, in their gutt, if you will, without necessarily defining it as such.

There are no guarantees in Thailand. Steve is not the judge, nor the jury. He can "follow all the rules" be "perfectly legal" to the letter of the law. And he could have done this 100 times. All it takes is one Somchai and the scheme could still go pear shaped. Im not trying to shoot down the whole idea, although, agreed, it might sound that way. What Im trying to impress is that there are NO absolutes in Thailand. Steve has all the answers until Somchai changes the questions. And. I have personally seen Somchai change the questions and it has cost companies dearly. Steve makes money on his scheme. It isnt advice, it is a business, and he isnt liable or going to pay the fines to the tax office whey they amount to millions of baht. At least, I dont think he is. And I've SEEN Somchai pull that stunt.

Steve's plan could work, it does work, and sure, it follows all the Thai rules I've seen or know about. And, so does the Chinese passport that said the 14 year old gymnist was actually 16. The International Olympic Committee accepted that legal, in accurate, document as "proof" and allowed her, and the host country, to keep the gold medal. Now. Try shagging her, having it end up in the Mirror, and head back to London. And when your "proof" that she was actually 16 is her wonky passport and the IOC's ruling.....well.....tell it to the Somchai judge in London, and, see what he says.

If Steve's clients are following the spirit of the work permit, location, work duties, salary, etc. The sure, it most likely isnt a problem at all. It is a great business idea which probably has a market. But then, if everything is on the up, and up. And legal. Then. Having a work permit really isnt all that difficult to gain. I can think of a few perfectly reasonable examples in my experience which would fit well with Steve's plan. But even then. I take issue with the idea that it Steve has it completely sussed and will never, ever, in a million years cause an issue.

When judged by a jury of his peers....let's say, this forum.....the marketing plan doesn't exactly pass the litmus test. (save for your vote: in favor)

[Indo-Siam]

There are some "straw men" being built here that I simply throw away.

If a rule says "400,000 baht minimum in the bank for 60 days" and you fell to 399,999 baht on day 39 - then that has nothing to do with this thread, and is no reflection on Thailand. That's you challenging a Thai official by telling him that you don't respect his rules, because you are "special" - and that's not going to work. There is nowhere in anything that I have written, that I talk about cutting ANY corners with published Thai rules, or failing to satisfy ANY requirement in full.

If you have a stack of 50 pages of company documents - and each page needs to be signed by a director, and stamped with the company seal - and three of those pages have a back side that also needs a signature and stamp - and you fail to sign and stamp the back side of one of those pages - and the Thai official kicks it back - that is not them failing - that is you (or my company, as processor) failing.

If they say that they need four photos of foreigner and Thai employees together in the office - and you give them three photos - and they reject you - that's not "Somchai" being bad guy - that's you (or me) being an idiot.

In bureaucracies - or religions - the ceremonies and stipulated procedures are keyed to the self-esteem of the "clergy" - and if you fail to conform to the fine details, while standing in the temple/church/whatever, you are effectively saying that you do not respect their scriptures. Don't whine if they toss you out.

Next - there are "bad" Thai officials out here - and if you have the misfortune of colliding with one, you are screwed. This also has nothing to do with this thread. Between applying for permits sponsored by your own company - or by my company - a "black" official isn't going to turn "white" for one, versus the other. The Thai company that will sponsor permits under my program is not some struggling firm - it has one Thai employee earning over 200,000 baht per month, and the AVERAGE salary for Thais in that company is more than 60,000 baht per month - and it is less likely than most typical companies to attract any negative attention.

I pity the people who have to deal with Government officials in Chonburi. That is a nasty jurisdiction. If the business that is sponsoring permits was in Chonburi jurisdiction, I would not be offering anything - because I could not reasonably set any expectation that I could feel confident to meet.

Next - in all the "Somchai" stories that were shared, there were no arrests, or deportations. There were simply permit failures. This thread talks about providing permits and sustained support under commercial arrangements that enable people who are basically self-employed to tailor their situations so that they satisfy Thai permit requirements. It is up to us to get the permits. If we for some reason fail - then no one owes us anything. We do not charge for effort, we charge for results.

If fear of encountering "Somchai" haunts your dreams, then here is how to make your best approach:

1. In work permit photos, wear a business shirt and necktie.

2. When you go to Immigration or Work Permit offices, always go clean shaven, and wearing business clothes and a necktie.

I require all clients of my company to follow those rules, every time.

If there is a flaw in an application packet, one of three things can happen:

1. In 0.5% of the cases, the processing officer will point out the flaw, and still accept the application.

2. In 98% of the cases, the officer will reject the application.

3. In 1.5% of the cases, the processing officer will accept the application conditionally, and tell the processing agent to just fix the flawed item, and bring the corrected document back the next day.

Outcomes #1 and #3 tend to happen to processing agents when the permit officials know that all clients that the processor brings in - month after month - always look professional, wearing shirts and neckties.

Respect. That is what bureaucrats want. So - give it to them. Then they don't have to demonstrate to you how powerful they are.

Cheers!

Steve

Indo-Siam

Nothing will ever be attempted if all possible objections must first be overcome. - Samuel Johnson

[exlaw]

Yep. Pretty much agree 100% with all that.

And, when the rule stipulates that the director's signature must be thru the company seal, I can personally attest, that when on page 46, the director became lazy and misses the seal, Somchai and his team might send the paperwork back for a do-over It's enough to pull your hair out, but it happens.

[Indo-Siam]

Having beaten this horse pretty much to death, and with not much more dissection possible, I will close my contributions with the following:

The offer in the OP was not hypothetical, and this is not a "will it work?" scenario. We have been routinely supporting clients using this approach for five years - a total of eight foreigners. The program has worked flawlessly in every case, and if anyone is interested, if they contact me, I can put you in touch with the last two individuals who used this approach, at the same Thai company that will sponsor the new permits.

My original reason for posting this topic was to explore an alternate method of finding clients. All eight previous participants initially came to me as company start-up candidates - who - upon comparing the costs and hassles of the two alternatives - decided to go with the employer of record approach. As far as I know - all of them would declare themslves to be pleased with their decision, in retrospect - but they can speak for themselves, if contacted.

Based on the number of times in the last few years that I saw people making posts on this forum that involved one of the scenarios that I published, I was curious to see whether a direct offer to such individuals might bear fruit.

I do know of two other companies at which I have influence that can also sponsor work permits under this program.

The only one of the six scenarios that we have not already supported was #5. This is because very few foreign managed companies actually "allow" significant profits to accrue - because the double taxation that is applied to dividend distributions discourages accumulation of taxable profits.

The nay-sayers here seem to see dangers around every corner: "Thar be dragons - 'best return to shore." Well, remember "Beaten paths are for beaten men."

Cheers:

Steve

Indo-Siam

Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas are any good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats. Howard Aiken

[guillaumimoso]

Hello all!

I've tried to read as much as I could on this thread, but I have to say, I've lost myself after a while.

What Steve offers, in my opinion, is what is called in Europe an "umbrella company" (société de portage, in French). This is a perfectly legal system in France, and from what I've heard, in Belgium and in the UK, to work as freelancers.

Basically, for translators or interpreters like myself, ie, a one-man show, we are usually reluctant to going through the hassle and complications of setting up a company (after all, we're not looking to expand or hire people, it's just to be able to work as freelance translators and interpreters).

So the government came up with the idea of developing specific companies, called umbrella companies, that would take care of taxes, payroll, etc., in exchange for a fee, while freelancers employed by this company continue their work for their customers. This way, freelancers can dedicate themselves to their work and enthrust the umbrella company with all the accounting, invoicing, payroll, taxes, etc.

It's almost as if the accountant turned into your employer. And this is perfectly legal.

Now, after reading quite extensively on the subject, it seems that Thailand is not looking to make the life of expats easy (and judging by some expats in Thailand, that's understandable), but for freelancers who want to live and work in Thailand, because, yes, it's very nice to be in Thailand, then what can we do? Again, for one-man shows, it's just unfeasible to hire 4 Thais and come up with a XXX M Bahts in the bank account to set up a company.

I wish this system of "umbrella company" existed in Thailand, but from what I've read on this thread, it seems it's not.

I would be extremely glad to be corrected if I was wrong with the above assumption... ;-)

[marinediscoking]

Interesting topic? Yes. From my experience, having attained 2 work permits in the past and having a registered company for 6 years now. This seems like a good idea, my biggest complaint about my business (other then revenue) is dealing with all the paperwork and bureaucracy. So much wasted time.

In my opinion the thai authorities care most about:

1. Forengers are here legally (one is not a over-stayer, or a criminal hidding out)

2. PAYING TAX!!!!!!!

If I was a some kind of freelancer or able to make good money in some other category. I would rather take a chance on Steve's idea with a WP as opposed to going straight to jail if caught working with out one.

[jazzbo]

'Taking a chance' may not be the issue ... You may be able to obtain freelance work from a company or particularly a government agency but contingent upon your obtaining a Work Permit -- from what ever source the hiring entity does not care.

[Talok]

I don't understand the flaming posts earlier. Some peeps have problems with themselves and can't resist to take it out on others that they deem "smarter" as themselves

Steve's options are well motivated, show expertise, are explained very clearly and apparently work with full approval of any Thai regulations whatsoever.

It's not for nothing the posts are not moderated away - apart from his company being a sponsor...

So i say thanks for the useful info!

Edited August 17, 2010 by Talok

[Paul888]

I don't understand the flaming posts earlier. Some peeps have problems with themselves and can't resist to take it out on others that they deem "smarter" as themselves

Steve's options are well motivated, show expertise, are explained very clearly and apparently work with full approval of any Thai regulations whatsoever.

It's not for nothing the posts are not moderated away - apart from his company being a sponsor...

So i say thanks for the useful info!

That is exactly what I was thinking.

It is almost comical to see people raise "problems", have them shot down, concede that they have been shot down, and then rack their brains to find other problems only for the same thing to happen again !

Edited August 18, 2010 by Paul888

[robblok]

Interesting topic? Yes. From my experience, having attained 2 work permits in the past and having a registered company for 6 years now. This seems like a good idea, my biggest complaint about my business (other then revenue) is dealing with all the paperwork and bureaucracy. So much wasted time.

In my opinion the thai authorities care most about:

1. Forengers are here legally (one is not a over-stayer, or a criminal hidding out)

2. PAYING TAX!!!!!!!

If I was a some kind of freelancer or able to make good money in some other category. I would rather take a chance on Steve's idea with a WP as opposed to going straight to jail if caught working with out one.

I would if i were sure this was legal and not just bending the rules. I mean totally illegal or bending the rules its all the same. Its not legal and it costs a lot plus a lot of hassle. I don't see computer programmers or others getting caught if they work in their own home for foreign employers.

[Sunny Valentine]

I would if i were sure this was legal and not just bending the rules. I mean totally illegal or bending the rules its all the same. Its not legal and it costs a lot plus a lot of hassle. I don't see computer programmers or others getting caught if they work in their own home for foreign employers.

Funny statement.

If you really believe anything at all in Thailand can ever be accomplished without some bending of the rules, you are up for a big surprise. You wont stand 24 hours here until you have to bend a rule, at least slightly.

This is a bold conclusion, and so far no argument has been posted here that confirms this claim. Out of the blue?

Well, you are almost 100 % correct, but you might concede that doing so is not just bending the rules, but straight and outright illegal.

[Mario2008]

Please keep the default black font when ever possible. Some members have problems with seeing colours.

[hyperdimension]

Indo-Siam, how much do you charge for such services that you have outlined here?

If your fees are high then I think most people will simply remain working illegally.

I presume that you would only want high income clients.

[blyish]

Indo-Siam, how much do you charge for such services that you have outlined here?

If your fees are high then I think most people will simply remain working illegally.

I presume that you would only want high income clients.

I'm wondering the same thing. I know somebody who obtained a work permit in a manner a little more sketchy than this. He had a lawyer put him down as an employee of a company. He paid the lawyer 100,000 baht and got the proper work permit for a year, with the option of extending it. He's a freelancer for a foreign company, so he's not working for anybody here. There was no way he could get a work permit any other way. Forming a company seemed stupid because the expenses were really high and he works alone. So he spent 100,000 (pretty sure in a dogy way) but got his permit.

What about the services you offer? Seems a little more straight than what he got (although I don't know details, so maybe he got his permit the same way you're offering). How does your price compare to that?

[Indo-Siam]

As stated in the original post, if someone is potentially interested in this program, please send me a PM - or you can obtain my direct e-mail address by Googling my signature block contents.

Describe your situation, and tell me to whom we will issue monthly invoices, to collect the income to pay your salary (and other costs).

I will then send you details of the program we would run for you, including costs.

Cheers!

Steve

Indo-Siam

[marinediscoking]

Interesting topic? Yes. From my experience, having attained 2 work permits in the past and having a registered company for 6 years now. This seems like a good idea, my biggest complaint about my business (other then revenue) is dealing with all the paperwork and bureaucracy. So much wasted time.

In my opinion the thai authorities care most about:

1. Forengers are here legally (one is not a over-stayer, or a criminal hidding out)

2. PAYING TAX!!!!!!!

If I was a some kind of freelancer or able to make good money in some other category. I would rather take a chance on Steve's idea with a WP as opposed to going straight to jail if caught working with out one.

I would if i were sure this was legal and not just bending the rules. I mean totally illegal or bending the rules its all the same. Its not legal and it costs a lot plus a lot of hassle. I don't see computer programmers or others getting caught if they work in their own home for foreign employers.

Well if you are programming for overseas clients from your room/condo/house, i don't see why you would bother.

However if your wanted to program for a multinational or iso certified company here in Thailand this might work for you, if I understand the posts from indo-siam correctly. That way you could bill and the client could deduct the expense for tax purposes.

[aurelius]

Indo-Siam - regarding your scenario #6, how do you manage/control potential business liabilities? People working for anyone will create business liabilities (in good conscience or not) - promises to deliver certain services, bills and invoices that are generated in the everyday course of business etc. How is this kept legally separated from the "employer"?

[Indo-Siam]

The simple answer is: the work permit holder will not be a director of the company - and thus cannot independently obligate the company, or make commitments that the company must honor. The sponsored individual will promote their product or service under their own trade name.

Where we have supported this scenario before with a successful outcome, it was for an overseas company that already had some business in Thailand - invoiced from overseas. They wanted to explore whether having a local presence would enhance sales, and whether there was still a promising market, despite economic downturn and political instability here. They are now their own company.

In a scenario with an unsuccessful outcome, a foreigner had a concept for a social networking website, and wanted legal "cover" to operate legitimately, and to legally employ Thai software developers and marketing people. His efforts were not successful, and he phased things out - and then went away.

Steve

Indo-Siam

[Kwasaki]

The simple answer is: the work permit holder will not be a director of the company - and thus cannot independently obligate the company, or make commitments that the company must honor. The sponsored individual will promote their product or service under their own trade name.

Where we have supported this scenario before with a successful outcome, it was for an overseas company that already had some business in Thailand - invoiced from overseas. They wanted to explore whether having a local presence would enhance sales, and whether there was still a promising market, despite economic downturn and political instability here. They are now their own company.

In a scenario with an unsuccessful outcome, a foreigner had a concept for a social networking website, and wanted legal "cover" to operate legitimately, and to legally employ Thai software developers and marketing people. His efforts were not successful, and he phased things out - and then went away.

Steve

Indo-Siam

I have to say I admire your persistence, don't know about the rest of it though.

[CWMcMurray]

I have to admit that the legal arguments seem sound and that as long as all of the T's are crossed and all of the i's are dotted. It looks to be completely legal and meet all of the requirements of the law.

For those who are freelancing or exploring business opportunities in Thailand, it seems like one way to explore the issue without jumping all the way in and opening up a business.

It seems to offer a way to "test the waters" and still doing it legally with a WP.

As many have said, there has not been any serious crack down on people keeping quite below the radar, but if there was a crackdown many may find themselves a whole lot more interested in this type of service.

The risk is, if the business is very successful, you could always just fire the foreigner and start running the company your self. As you are the employer and the foreigner is the employee, what safe guards are in place that would prevent this? Not saying you are not ethical, but I don't know you, so I can't say you are ethical either...

[Stan42]

I'm not an expert, but here are my two cents:

1. You can get a 1 year visa with the responsible authorities.

2. You can spend a weekend in, let's say Singapore, which will renew your visa for 3 months.

3. With the right connections, you can register yourself at a company/institute (without actually being an employee), such as a being a language teacher. (Additionally this automatically makes you elegible for health insurance)

4. Marry a Thai citizen (duh!)

Sorry if I couldn't be of anymore help, I have four passports

[JimsKnight]

Hello all!

I've tried to read as much as I could on this thread, but I have to say, I've lost myself after a while.

What Steve offers, in my opinion, is what is called in Europe an "umbrella company" (société de portage, in French). This is a perfectly legal system in France, and from what I've heard, in Belgium and in the UK, to work as freelancers.

Basically, for translators or interpreters like myself, ie, a one-man show, we are usually reluctant to going through the hassle and complications of setting up a company (after all, we're not looking to expand or hire people, it's just to be able to work as freelance translators and interpreters).

So the government came up with the idea of developing specific companies, called umbrella companies, that would take care of taxes, payroll, etc., in exchange for a fee, while freelancers employed by this company continue their work for their customers. This way, freelancers can dedicate themselves to their work and enthrust the umbrella company with all the accounting, invoicing, payroll, taxes, etc.

It's almost as if the accountant turned into your employer. And this is perfectly legal.

Now, after reading quite extensively on the subject, it seems that Thailand is not looking to make the life of expats easy (and judging by some expats in Thailand, that's understandable), but for freelancers who want to live and work in Thailand, because, yes, it's very nice to be in Thailand, then what can we do? Again, for one-man shows, it's just unfeasible to hire 4 Thais and come up with a XXX M Bahts in the bank account to set up a company.

I wish this system of "umbrella company" existed in Thailand, but from what I've read on this thread, it seems it's not.

I would be extremely glad to be corrected if I was wrong with the above assumption... ;-)

I totally agree with you. I've used this system in Europe and it's very good indeed (when there's work).

People who are self-sufficient (money-wise) are very much pushed aside from any notion of umbrella company in los.

This is a shame because these types have a lot to offer Thailand. I know more than a few expats who have skills in engineering, invention and innovation that could be put to good use here in Thailand. BUT THE LAW WONT LET THEM!

These guys have the years, experience and maturity to enhance and improve Thai company's via advising, observation and consultation / instruction.

I've said it several times now but I think there's an element of 'we are thai, we don't want the white man (farang) telling us how to do it.' mentality to this problem.

This is the main reason there's no push for any 'entrepeneur' 'slot' in the Thai law.

Also, to the poster who seems to have a problem with for someone working freelance I've got news for you. They do exist and farangs do do it.

[JimsKnight]

I have to admit that the legal arguments seem sound and that as long as all of the T's are crossed and all of the i's are dotted. It looks to be completely legal and meet all of the requirements of the law.

For those who are freelancing or exploring business opportunities in Thailand, it seems like one way to explore the issue without jumping all the way in and opening up a business.

It seems to offer a way to "test the waters" and still doing it legally with a WP.

As many have said, there has not been any serious crack down on people keeping quite below the radar, but if there was a crackdown many may find themselves a whole lot more interested in this type of service.

The risk is, if the business is very successful, you could always just fire the foreigner and start running the company your self. As you are the employer and the foreigner is the employee, what safe guards are in place that would prevent this? Not saying you are not ethical, but I don't know you, so I can't say you are ethical either...

The reason there's been no crackdown is because there's nothing visible to crackdown against.

If there's no target there's no crackdown. All farangs who've been caught on WP machinations tend to be sitting ducks and 'above the radar'.

Thankfully Thailand hasn't been going down the big brother route that Euroland is lamentably following.

[JimsKnight]

Indo-Siam, how much do you charge for such services that you have outlined here?

If your fees are high then I think most people will simply remain working illegally.

I presume that you would only want high income clients.

That's the second thing that sprang into my mind.

The first was, what's the benefit for the would-be WP farang who comes in from the cold?

I do like what Indo is proposing though, it's the first real attempt by someone to try and bridge this crazy gap between 'employee from overseas company' and 'Individual who doesn't fit into the narrow scope of the crazy WP restrictions'

Having a WP does, off the top-of-my-head, mean easier ways to open a bank account and I think easier driving license application?

[blyish]

Having a WP does, off the top-of-my-head, mean easier ways to open a bank account and I think easier driving license application?

No. I opened a bank account on a tourist visa (not even a visa; an exempt stamp I got at the airport). I got my licence on an ED visa. No problem. Nobody asked a single question.

[Spoonman]

none of them ever spent any time at the office - except once per year, to be photographed with the Thai staff. That is a firm requirement -

In the whole I do think this is all dodgy, however the above quote got me curious, who stipulates the "firm requirement" ??

Reason I ask is all my photo's I have submitted for work permits (on my 4th now) have been taken at a kodak shop just round the corner from my house.....never been an issue at one stop visa.

[Soutpeel]

none of them ever spent any time at the office - except once per year, to be photographed with the Thai staff. That is a firm requirement -

In the whole I do think this is all dodgy, however the above quote got me curious, who stipulates the "firm requirement" ??

Reason I ask is all my photo's I have submitted for work permits (on my 4th now) have been taken at a kodak shop just round the corner from my house.....never been an issue at one stop visa.

In nearly 10 years of WP's never been photographed with any Thai staff....granted every few years they ask for a few updated passport size photos...but thats it