ดRiving Me Crazy

[kokesaat]

I'm at wit's end on getting the proper pronunciation for words that begin with ต or ด....especially ด. I think my previous teacher gave up on me and stopped correcting my mispronunciation. My new teacher hasn't reached that point though.....and I want to renew my efforts to nail this down, once and for all.

I'll take any hints out there. But I'd also like to consider a list of words in English, with the sound of ต or ด at the beginning of the word. Perhaps a swig of lemon juice or sugar water will soften up the palate enough to help me get this right. All help appreciated.

[rgs2001uk]

Try the following link,

http://www.thai-language.com/let/165

click on the browse function on the left hand side, then click on the sound link.

[Peppy]

^ The above link leads to a page about ฅ, the now obsolete consonant once used in many words that are now spelled with ค... but I think the OP's asking about ต.

To (try to) answer the question, there are no words in English that begin with a ต sound, but it is present in the following:

stone, stick, steam, stop, etc.

To make the ต sound, try and say the words without the initial "s". Remember, you aren't saying "tone, tick, team, top"; rather, you're saying "stone, stick, steam, stop", but without the "s" sound. Put your hand over your mouth when you do it--if you're making the right sound, there should be no puff of air released with the "t".

As for ด, in the initial position, it sounds the same as the English "d", like in dog, dirt, dip, do etc.

[Jay_Jay]

Kokesaat - This is a serious question ... you wouldn't be Dutch by any chance would you? I have noticed this issue with almost all the Dutch people that come through my Thai class. It's a matter of training their ears to really hear the difference between the two - ด and ต / บ and ป, and then start doing exercises to develop the muscle memory.

[kokesaat]

Not Dutch......I'm American. My ต's seem to be okay......but no matter how hard I try to make a ด sound like the d in doll, my teacher isn't satisfied. Back to the drawing board and consulting English Second Language websites to be sure I'm saying my d's correctly (after 60 years??). Thanks for the tips...I'll keep trying.

[eric67]

Kokesaat - This is a serious question ... you wouldn't be Dutch by any chance would you? I have noticed this issue with almost all the Dutch people that come through my Thai class. It's a matter of training their ears to really hear the difference between the two - ด and ต / บ and ป, and then start doing exercises to develop the muscle memory.

Strange, because to me the Dutch (unaspirated) t and p sounds almost exactly like ต and ป, just like the Dutch k sounds like a ก.

Maybe your Dutch students are so tuned in to using English to learn Thai, that they don't realize similar sounds exist in their own language?

[Groongthep]

As for ด, in the initial position, it sounds the same as the English "d", like in dog, dirt, dip, do etc.

I agree with Peppy here. I have always pronounced ด like the English letter D and can't remember ever being misunderstood pronouncing it this way.

....no matter how hard I try to make a ด sound like the d in doll, my teacher isn't satisfied. Back to the drawing board and consulting English Second Language websites to be sure I'm saying my d's correctly (after 60 years??). Thanks for the tips...I'll keep trying.

Something doesn't seem right to me here, ด has almost always been one of the easiest Thai sounds for me and nearly all of my western classmates to reproduce. Try pronouncing it to another qualified teacher and get a second opinion. My guess is if you are mispronouncing it, its not by much, providing of course, you don't stutter like Elmer Fudd.

[kriswillems]

Kokesaat - This is a serious question ... you wouldn't be Dutch by any chance would you? I have noticed this issue with almost all the Dutch people that come through my Thai class. It's a matter of training their ears to really hear the difference between the two - ด and ต / บ and ป, and then start doing exercises to develop the muscle memory.

I knew more than 50 Dutch speaking Thai language students and have never met somebody with this problem.

The Dutch d sounds exactly like ด

And the Dutch t is very close to ต (I say very close because ต is probably a bit more unaspirated)

The Dutch b is exactly like บ.

The Dutch p is very close to the ป.

My experience is that Dutch speaking people have problems with the aspirated sound like ท and พ (which are rather easy for English speaking people).

[Richard W]

Not Dutch......I'm American. My ต's seem to be okay......but no matter how hard I try to make a ด sound like the d in doll, my teacher isn't satisfied. Back to the drawing board and consulting English Second Language websites to be sure I'm saying my d's correctly (after 60 years??).

You're probably saying them with an (American) English accent! You'd do better with a Polish accent.

Seriously, though, English starts the voicing of its voiced stops later than many other languages, and quite a few people go through all the actions to produce a voiced /d/ except for actually voicing it. See for example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_consonant . For a technical discussion, see for example A Cross-Language Study of Voicing in Initial Stops : Acoustical Measurements. It's all summed up by VOT - Voice Onset Time.

[bifftastic]

yeah it needs a kind of 'uh' voiced behind the 'd'

[Jay_Jay]

Kokesaat - This is a serious question ... you wouldn't be Dutch by any chance would you? I have noticed this issue with almost all the Dutch people that come through my Thai class. It's a matter of training their ears to really hear the difference between the two - ด and ต / บ and ป, and then start doing exercises to develop the muscle memory.

I knew more than 50 Dutch speaking Thai language students and have never met somebody with this problem.

The Dutch d sounds exactly like ด

And the Dutch t is very close to ต (I say very close because ต is probably a bit more unaspirated)

The Dutch b is exactly like บ.

The Dutch p is very close to the ป.

My experience is that Dutch speaking people have problems with the aspirated sound like ท and พ (which are rather easy for English speaking people).

It was all three of them. There was one student in particular where บ ป and พ were sending him crazy. Thinking about that guy in particular, it was the ป and พ that gave him the most grief.

[everydaysthesame]

I have just developed this problem. and like the original poster my problem is with ด not ต. When I first learnt thai I pronounced ต as ด. Now I have the reverse problem. I think its because I worked so hard to learn ต now its stuck.

I am not dutch though my grandma was - maybe its genetic.

OP - careful when talking about the sunshine :-)

[kokesaat]

I have just developed this problem. and like the original poster my problem is with ด not ต. When I first learnt thai I pronounced ต as ด. Now I have the reverse problem. I think its because I worked so hard to learn ต now its stuck.

I am not dutch though my grandma was - maybe its genetic.

OP - careful when talking about the sunshine :-)

Looking back, that might be my problem as well. It took me a while to figure out how to take the 's' off of words like stick, stem, stupid.....but once I did, I never heard complaints about my ต.

[everydaysthesame]

I have just developed this problem. and like the original poster my problem is with ด not ต. When I first learnt thai I pronounced ต as ด. Now I have the reverse problem. I think its because I worked so hard to learn ต now its stuck.

I am not dutch though my grandma was - maybe its genetic.

OP - careful when talking about the sunshine :-)

Looking back, that might be my problem as well. It took me a while to figure out how to take the 's' off of words like stick, stem, stupid.....but once I did, I never heard complaints about my ต.

Thats definately my problem. Although it seems stupid as ด is basically the same as a 'D'

[kokesaat]

I allowed my teacher to torture me through an hour of ต vs. ด drills. Again, I generally pass my ต's just fine, and today was the same. After practicing all weekend, I mostly passed the ด test. My strategy (after reading some esl websites about proper D pronunciation) was to put my tongue just slightly behind the top row of front teeth (in other words, the tongue wasn't actually touching the teeth, but it was pretty close). That strategy seemed to work.

I have to say, though, that my brain hasn't felt this way since I began learning tones two or so years ago. Trying to put the different vowels and consonants together, along with the tone rules (including changing consonant sounds at the end of syllables) was about as intensive a brain exercise as I've ever been through. 60 minutes of one-on-one (using the หัดอ่าน ภาษาไทย แบบใหม่ เล่ม ๑-๗) and my brain was fried.

Thanks for all the suggestions. I think it's mission accomplished!

[AbeSurd]

To (try to) answer the question, there are no words in English that begin with a ต sound, but it is present in the following:

stone, stick, steam, stop, etc.

To make the ต sound, try and say the words without the initial "s". Remember, you aren't saying "tone, tick, team, top"; rather, you're saying "stone, stick, steam, stop", but without the "s" sound. Put your hand over your mouth when you do it--if you're making the right sound, there should be no puff of air released with the "t".

That's good - yes, that works for me.

[Benchamas]

I allowed my teacher to torture me through an hour of ต vs. ด drills. Again, I generally pass my ต's just fine, and today was the same. After practicing all weekend, I mostly passed the ด test. My strategy (after reading some esl websites about proper D pronunciation) was to put my tongue just slightly behind the top row of front teeth (in other words, the tongue wasn't actually touching the teeth, but it was pretty close). That strategy seemed to work.

I have to say, though, that my brain hasn't felt this way since I began learning tones two or so years ago. Trying to put the different vowels and consonants together, along with the tone rules (including changing consonant sounds at the end of syllables) was about as intensive a brain exercise as I've ever been through. 60 minutes of one-on-one (using the หัดอ่าน ภาษาไทย แบบใหม่ เล่ม ๑-๗) and my brain was fried.

Thanks for all the suggestions. I think it's mission accomplished!

ด vs ต

Try to play with your tongue.

ด = your tongue will slightly / hardly touch your teeth.

ต = your tongue will fully touch your teeth.

Just try and please tell me if it works !!!

I have a hard time with CH vs SH as well.

[kokesaat]

Again, thanks for all the tips. including the latest from Benchamas.

When it comes to helping Thais with their sh versus ch (a common problem), I usually do my mimic of a librarian trying to hush up a bunch of w kids: index finger to the lips with a long drawn out shhhhhhhhh sound. Most Thais can do that without any problem. When they come to an sh..... word and slip, I'll just raise my index finger toward my lips to remind them of the sound.....that seems to do the trick.

It seems ch sounds are more difficult for Thais. Most are pretty good about pronouncing the ch in chicken, although they'll not grit their teeth to get a real clear sounding ch. I'm batting about .900 in getting my neighborhood students to properly pronounce v, f, ch, sh on a consistent basis. When they're studying with me, I'm ruthless with them......when we're just shooting the breeze, I'll ease up. It seems to work.

Ultimately, IMO, it comes down to unlearning years of bad pronunciation habits learned in school.......it can be done.

[Benchamas]

Thanks for the tips too, kokesaat (Khop khun kha)

ch - sh I will try

Believe it or not... I have a problem with pronunciation of "squirrel"