Visa To Uk

[twix38]

Hello,

My Thai girlfriend has come to England on a 6 month Fiancee visa. We did not marry in England and she will return to Thailand next month, within the visa dates.

We are still happy and together, but decided after living together that we were not yet ready to commit to marriage for life. (we both think this). However, we have got on very well and expect to marry in a year or 2.

My question is. Can she get any type of visa (tourist, Student etc) to return to England before we get married, having already had a Fiancee visa granted? For example, she would like to study English here and I can supply the necessary paperwork and funds. Maybe there is a better suggestion. We would again keep to the visa rules and dates, as we are just looking for more time together in England as I have a job.

What would be the best way to seek a return visa?

[gerrryuk]

Hello,

My Thai girlfriend has come to England on a 6 month Fiancee visa. We did not marry in England and she will return to Thailand next month, within the visa dates.

We are still happy and together, but decided after living together that we were not yet ready to commit to marriage for life. (we both think this). However, we have got on very well and expect to marry in a year or 2.

My question is. Can she get any type of visa (tourist, Student etc) to return to England before we get married, having already had a Fiancee visa granted? For example, she would like to study English here and I can supply the necessary paperwork and funds. Maybe there is a better suggestion. We would again keep to the visa rules and dates, as we are just looking for more time together in England as I have a job.

What would be the best way to seek a return visa?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

From my limited experience the UK Government is more concerned about Thai Girls leaving the country. So my answer to that would be that if she and you obeyed all the laws and rules (except getting married - and that is a good decision by rational people) that there should be no problem in requesting a second visa. Which type I am uncertain, but just be honest and truthful. But I would consider talking to the proper authorities or even ask the Royal Thai Embassy near you.

[GU22]

From Guidance - Students (INF 5)

How do I qualify to travel to the UK as a student?

You must be able to show that you have been accepted on a course of study at an educational establishment that is on the UK's Department for Education and Skills (DfES) Register of Education and Training Providers.

It is not as simple as turning up to the embassy and saying you want to go to the UK to study English! The government is well aware that many people have in the past said they are "coming to the UK to study English" when they have had no intention of actually studying, and that many unscrupulous 'English schools' have cashed in on this to get people visas. Hence the introduction of the register. She will also have to show why she needs to improve her English and why she cannot find a suitable course in Thailand.

Whatever visa your g/f applies for she is definitely going to be asked something like the following:-

"We issued you a visa on (date) so you could travel to the UK and marry your fiance. You told us that marrying him was a definite intention. Now you are applying for a student/tourist/whatever visa.

If you want to remain in the UK and you are still in a relationship with him, why did you not marry him?

If you are no longer in a relationship with him, why do you need to return to the UK?

If you lied to us before about wanting to marry him, why should we believe you now."

Many people apply for a fiance visa as they think it will be easier to get than a visit visa, They forget that the embassy do keep records, and if the visa holder doesn't marry the sponsor and then applies for another visa they are going to need a very good explanation.

IMHO, the embassy are not going to issue her with any sort of non-settlement visa. What they may do is issue another fiance visa, if you can show a very good reason for not marrying within the life of the current one. Otherwise it's wait until you are married and apply for a spouse visa.

Edited July 10, 2005 by GU22

[paully]

Twix, if you search back through this thread, you'll see that another very similar topic was started about this subject (ie: obtaining a second fiancee visa for the UK) a couple of weeks ago. But GU22 is right, it won't be a straightforward application. Good luck.

Edited July 11, 2005 by paully

[the scouser]

Alternatively, if you can show the embassy that your g/f's intention when granted the fiancee visa was, indeed, to get married in the UK and that you only changed your minds after she arrived in the UK, then no deception has occurred.

People are allowed to change their minds, and deciding not to rush head-long into marriage is one of the better reasons I've heard.

Essentially, there is no reason why a second application should be condemned to failure providing it is properly presented.

Scouse.

[GU22]

Yes, a second application for a fiance visa, if properly presented, may succeed. But remember they would have told the ECO at the first application that they definitely wanted to marry. That's what a fiance visa is for. Rushing into marriage doesn't come into it. If they had not already decided to marry then they should not have applied for a fiance visa.

People are of course allowed to change their mind, but if they have done so they wont need another fiance visa. In the thread Paully refers to the OP had reasons for not marrying during the life of the visa. That's not the case here.

I am not saying that this is the case here, but it's people who abuse the system who make it more difficult for genuine applicants.

[the scouser]

GU22,

You're missing the legal nuances, here. A second application in any category, if properly presented, may succeed.

In applying for a fiancee visa the applicant was not telling the visa officer that she would definitely marry. What she was doing was stating what her intention was at that point in time and peopple do change their minds. If, in this case, the lady changed her mind having already arrived in the UK, that, per se, cannot be held against her. FACT.

Scouse.

[GU22]

Yes, Scouse, that is true.

But if she has changed her mind and no longer wishes to marry then why does she need another fiance visa?

Alternatively, if, as twix38 says in his original post, they have decided to put the wedding off for a couple of years then why does she need another visa now?

I'm playing devils advocate here, but they will have to come up with convincing answers to these questions.

[dereklev]

Yes, Scouse, that is true.

But if she has changed her mind and no longer wishes to marry then why does she need another fiance visa?

Alternatively, if, as twix38 says in his original post, they have decided to put the wedding off for a couple of years then why does she need another visa now?

I'm playing devils advocate here, but they will have to come up with convincing answers to these questions.

GU22, do you or have you ever worked for the UK Immigration Department?

I am just curious as you seem to feel that you are an authority on these issues! !

[GU22]

GU22, do you or have you ever worked for the UK Immigration Department?

No, but I have had plenty of pratical experience and have read the rules.

Immigration Rules.

Requirements for an extension of stay as a fiancé(e)

293. The requirements for an extension of stay as a fiancé(e) are that:

(i) the applicant was admitted to the United Kingdom with a valid United Kingdom entry clearance as a fiancé(e); and

(ii) good cause is shown why the marriage did not take place within the initial period of leave granted under paragraph 291; and

(iii) there is satisfactory evidence that the marriage will take place at an early date; and

(iv) the requirements of paragraph 290 (ii)-(vi) are met.

Extension of stay as a fiancé(e)

294. An extension of stay as a fiancé(e) may be granted for an appropriate period with a prohibition on employment to enable the marriage to take place provided the Secretary of State is satisfied that each of the requirements of paragraph 293 is met.

Refusal of extension of stay as a fiancé(e)

295. An extension of stay is to be refused if the Secretary of State is not satisfied that each of the requirements of paragraph 293 is met.

I have highlighted the relevant paragraphs.

I know this refers to extending a fiance visa within the UK, but the ECO will want the same before issuing a second fiance visa.

I am not saying it is impossible, but it wont be easy. Giving twix38 the impression that it will be does him no favours.

Edited July 11, 2005 by GU22

[dee_jai_maak_maak]

GU22, do you or have you ever worked for the UK Immigration Department?

No, but I have had plenty of pratical experience and have read the rules.

Immigration Rules.

Requirements for an extension of stay as a fiancé(e)

293. The requirements for an extension of stay as a fiancé(e) are that:

(i) the applicant was admitted to the United Kingdom with a valid United Kingdom entry clearance as a fiancé(e); and

(ii) good cause is shown why the marriage did not take place within the initial period of leave granted under paragraph 291; and

(iii) there is satisfactory evidence that the marriage will take place at an early date; and

(iv) the requirements of paragraph 290 (ii)-(vi) are met.

Extension of stay as a fiancé(e)

294. An extension of stay as a fiancé(e) may be granted for an appropriate period with a prohibition on employment to enable the marriage to take place provided the Secretary of State is satisfied that each of the requirements of paragraph 293 is met.

Refusal of extension of stay as a fiancé(e)

295. An extension of stay is to be refused if the Secretary of State is not satisfied that each of the requirements of paragraph 293 is met.

I have highlighted the relevant paragraphs.

I know this refers to extending a fiance visa within the UK, but the ECO will want the same before issuing a second fiance visa.

I am not saying it is impossible, but it wont be easy. Giving twix38 the impression that it will be does him no favours.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Allow me to butt in here if I may.

Could the OP's gf not apply for a tourist visa? After all, he didn't say that they specifically wanted to apply for a 2nd fiance visa.

Despite what has happened, the gf returned to Thailand before her visa expired. So would an ECO not consider there to be a low risk of her overstaying, and so be happy to give her a tourist visa?

djmm

[GU22]

Overstaying is not the only consideration for a visit visa; the applicant also has to be a genuine visitor.

From my first post on this subject

Whatever visa your g/f applies for she is definitely going to be asked something like the following:-

We issued you a visa on (date) so you could travel to the UK and marry your fiance. You told us that marrying him was a definite intention. Now you are applying for a student/tourist/whatever visa.

If you want to remain in the UK and you are still in a relationship with him, why did you not marry him?

If you are no longer in a relationship with him, why do you need to return to the UK?

Ok, maybe I didn't put it very well, so I'll rephrase it.

If you are still in a relationship with him and want to remain in the UK with him, why did you not marry him.

If you are unsure, and want to wait before deciding whether or not to marry him, why do you need to go back to the UK now?

I'm sorry, but IMHO the ECOs are going to see any non-settlement application as an attempt to get round the immigration rules, and are therefore going to refuse. Even if they do issue a visit visa she will only be able to spend 6 months maximum in the UK, so a visit visa will only put the problem off.

I may be wrong. Like all posters here I can only offer advice based on my own experiences and my reading of the rules. If twix38 wants to try, that's up to him.

Edited July 12, 2005 by GU22

[the scouser]

Certainly, each application is judged on its own merits within the context of the relevant paragraph(s) of the immigration rules. It is impossible to prejudge what the visa officer will think/do and all twix can do is to attempt to address the rules.

I do maintain, however, that given a believable enough explanation for the change of mind, there is no reason why twix's g/f shouldn't get another visa in whichever category. The burden applicable in law to immigration cases is the balance of probability, so when assessing an application the visa officer is constantly asking him/herself whether the circumstances are probable. If the answer to that is yes, then the visa should be issued (subject to any other rules).

Scouse.

[GU22]

The burden applicable in law to immigration cases is the balance of probability, so when assessing an application the visa officer is constantly asking him/herself whether the circumstances are probable

And the most probable reason for any non-settlement application in this case is that the applicant is not a legitimate student nor a genuine visitor, but that the only reason she wants to go to the UK is so she can continue to live with her boyfriend.

I'm not saying it's right or fair, in fact it is neither, but IMHO that is going to be the conclusion of the ECO and any non-settlement application will be refused.

If twix's girlfriend does go ahead with a non-settlement application and is successful, then I will be more than happy to publicly eat my words.

[the scouser]

And, likewise, as I've said all along, if the reason for not getting married is valid (probable) then that can't be held against twix's g/f in any subsequent application. To reiterate further, each application is treated individually, based on its own merits, and within the context of the immigration rules.

Scouse.

[GU22]

each application is treated individually, based on its own merits

Are you saying, Scouse, that previous applications will have absolutely no bearing on a current application in all cases?

Supposing you are an ECO faced with an application for a fiance visa. The applicant says she wants to go to the UK to marry Mr. X. Yet 9 months previously she was issued a fiance visa to marry Mr. Y! Would you ignore the previous application?

An extreme and hypothetical case, here is a real one.

A few years ago my wife and I were in the waiting room at the embassy while her son was applying for a visit visa. A young girl came out of one of the interview rooms looking very upset. She saw us and asked my wife if I could explain what her refusal notice said. She had applied for a fiance visa, and, while I cannot remember the exact wording, she had been refused because she had been unable to explain why her sponsor (supposed fiance) had successfully sponsored a different girl for a fiance visa about 5 months previously!

So, I believe that it is not just previous applications by the applicant that they consider, but they check the sponsor as well.

Obviously, previous applications, successful or not, will not effect the outcome of a current application if there is a reasonable explanation. Like in our case, visit visa refused, settlement visa successful.

Twix's girlfriend may be successful with a fiance visa application, if she can show a satisfactory reason for not marrying during the life of the last one and if she can show that the wedding will take place soon. I have always said that.

Scouse, I cannot see if you have commented on her chances of a non-settlement visa. Do you agree with me that her chances of obtaining one at this time are virtually zero?

Edited July 14, 2005 by GU22

[the scouser]

Each application is treated individually and upon its own merits, within the context of the immigration rules. Whereas this does not prevent the visa officer from taking in to consideration previous applications, it does mean that it is the applicant's current circumstances which are most relevant. As a consequence of this, if the applicant is able to show that what happened previously has no bearing upon a current application, then it will be ignored. And my point throughout has been that if twix and his g/f have a good enough reason why they didn't get married, then their failure to do so will not, in itself, prejudice a subsequent application. Of course, this does not mean that a second application, in whichever capacity, is bound to succeed, but rather that their previous failure to marry would have no detrimental bearing upon its chances of success.

However, writing all of the foregoing does not alter the fact that, ultimately, it is impossible to prejudge a visa officer's decision.

Scouse.

[Clive sorts]

My opinion(unqualified dereklev ) on this issue is that the settlement visa was applied for, granted, however the couple have decided not to marry and the Lady is returning to Thailand so as to comply within the visa rules.

If Twix's GF returns to Thailand and then applys for a visitors visa then I don't see it being a major problem, if she complys within the existing visitor visa rules I.E. Legitimate reason to return to Thailand , etc. The issue of her not remaining in the UK on the settlement visa will be brought up in her interview by the ECO however if she just tells the truth and is straight with them then she has a better than average success rate. One of the hurdles that she has is that the emphasis is on her now for the visitor visa whereas the settlement visa is tuned more to the couples relationship and Twix's financial and living status. If she is not successful with a student / visitors visa application then maybe they can wait a year or so and re-apply for the settlement visa again ?

I am not over qualified in this subject however it is just my opinion as I have experienced a visitor and settlement visa application with my Fiancee and I have learned so much from it. Even more so when posting in this wonderful forum.

Good luck Twix.

Regards

Clive Sorts

[GU22]

There are many couples who have not married during the life of a fiance visa, and have subsequently successfully obtained a second fiance visa. They just have to satisfy the ECO that the requirements of Para 293 are met.

293. The requirements for an extension of stay as a fiancé(e) are that:

(i) the applicant was admitted to the United Kingdom with a valid United Kingdom entry clearance as a fiancé(e); and

(ii) good cause is shown why the marriage did not take place within the initial period of leave granted under paragraph 291; and

(iii) there is satisfactory evidence that the marriage will take place at an early date; and

(iv) the requirements of paragraph 290 (ii)-(vi) are met.

Of course, if they marry in Thailand they can then apply for a spouse visa, which, IMHO, would be a lot easier, as the marriage has now taken place.

As Scouse says, each case is treated on it's own merits. In the case, IMHO, the ECO will view any application for a visit visa as an attempt to by-pass the immigration rules and so remain in the UK with her boyfriend. The ECO will not consider the applicant to be a genuine visitor, but someone attempting to settle by the back door.

This is only my opinion. To quote Scouse again "ultimately, it is impossible to prejudge a visa officer's decision." I would love to be proved wrong!

[dereklev]

My opinion(unqualified dereklev  ) on this issue is that the settlement visa was applied for, granted,  however the couple have decided not to marry and the Lady is returning to Thailand so as to comply within the visa rules.

If Twix's GF returns to Thailand and then applys for a visitors visa then I don't see it being a major problem, if she complys within the existing visitor visa rules I.E.  Legitimate reason to return to Thailand , etc. The issue of her not remaining in the UK on the settlement visa will be brought up in her interview by the ECO however if she just tells the truth and is straight with them then she has a better than average success rate. One of the hurdles that she has is that the emphasis is on her now for the visitor visa whereas the settlement visa is tuned more to the couples relationship and Twix's financial and living status.  If she is not successful with a student / visitors visa application then maybe they can wait a year or so and re-apply for the settlement visa again ?   

I am not over qualified in this subject however it is just my opinion as I have experienced a visitor and settlement visa application with my Fiancee and I have learned so much from it. Even more so when posting in this wonderful forum.

Good luck Twix.

Regards

Clive Sorts

I am also unqualified but my opinion is pretty much like yours.

If she has abided by the visa regulations and returned to Thailand she stands a good chance of a second visa.

I cannot see that deciding against rushing in to marriage will be frowned upon.

Surely it is better to take ones time and make sure that getting married is the correct choice.

Well Chok Dee Twix, I hope she gets her visa.