Reds Back Out In Chiang Mai

[ianf]

Went to the walking street market tonight and the reds were out in force just by the three kings. I find this so unbelievably frightening because of the type of politics they represent. To me the whole movement is closer to pre-war national socialism (in that it is based on emotional manipulation through total distortions of the truth and plain lies). As a former journalist I have been in some situations in my life but for some reason this movement really gives me the creeps.

[annabel]

It's 9.50 pm right now and checked with my daughter who is at walking street right now and she said they just went by the 3 kings ans yes there were red shirts assembled there but not that many and didn't seem very threatening ... but anyway , yup not good to see that they are starting to get together again especially after the rumors that they plan to start up demonstrations again in September ....

[Ulysses G.]

There was a ton of them at Thapae Gate last night with redshirt speakers on stage and selling Thaksin T shirts - etc. They behaved themselves though.

[gotlost]

There was a ton of them at Thapae Gate last night with redshirt speakers on stage and selling Thaksin T shirts - etc. They behaved themselves though.

How many T shirts did the tourist pick up?

[naboo]

They were selling T-Shirts with the slogan "I am Red". Why they all want to publicise their marijuana consumption, I'm not sure.

[Jingthing]

They were selling T-Shirts with the slogan "I am Red". Why they all want to publicise their marijuana consumption, I'm not sure.

Were they offering a variety of sizes or only tiny sizes?

More seriously, yes, they are indeed a disturbing movement.

Edited August 22, 2010 by Jingthing

[true blue]

They were selling T-Shirts with the slogan "I am Red". Why they all want to publicise their marijuana consumption, I'm not sure.

Were they offering a variety of sizes or only tiny sizes?

most of this type of t shirt,from what i saw were only worn by toddlers,plenty adults, wearing the thaskin one though.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

It's pretty stunning that someone who calls himself a journalist finds it strange that people engage in a political gathering, after months of martial law which banned gatherings of more than a handful of people.

You don't have to agree with them, or even like them; but subscribing to basic freedoms such as freedom of assembly and freedom of speech would suit anyone well.

Edited August 22, 2010 by WinnieTheKhwai

[hanuman1]

To the OP:

You'd better get used to this 'creepy movement', they're here to stay.

Even if through foul means or fair they are one day disbanded, this will be the last place in the country where they'd give up their cause.

H.

[sbk]

It's pretty stunning that someone who calls himself a journalist finds it strange that people engage in a political gathering, after months of martial law which banned gatherings of more than a handful of people.

You don't have to agree with them, or even like them; but subscribing to basic freedoms such as freedom of assembly and freedom of speech would suit anyone well.

Pity they don't subscribe to the same values.

[mccw]

My wife just read On cm108 web site that a bomb was found in sanpatong hospital but defused with out incident; of course this is completely all unrelated or a stunt by the army to discredit the peaceful reds who only want equality freedom bla bla bla; like them burning down Bangkok or shooting guns or beating to death those with differrent political views, they were all fake redshirts of course!

[ogb]

Good to see that they cannot be cowed into submission, despite their kind being killed, detained and censored.

Hopefully they have at last learned that mass protest (peaceful or violent) only works for one colour in Thailand, however they can also take heart that they are still a force to be reckoned with at the ballot box (as evidenced by the fact that those with all the power & privileges are still afraid to face the electorate).

[cardholder]

Good to see that they cannot be cowed into submission, despite their kind being killed, detained and censored.

Unfortunately, not enough of them

[Jingthing]

Good to see that they cannot be cowed into submission, despite their kind being killed, detained and censored.

Hopefully they have at last learned that mass protest (peaceful or violent) only works for one colour in Thailand, however they can also take heart that they are still a force to be reckoned with at the ballot box (as evidenced by the fact that those with all the power & privileges are still afraid to face the electorate).

Dengue fever is still a force to be reckoned with, but that's nothing to celebrate.

Edited August 22, 2010 by Jingthing

[ogb]

Good to see that they cannot be cowed into submission, despite their kind being killed, detained and censored.

Hopefully they have at last learned that mass protest (peaceful or violent) only works for one colour in Thailand, however they can also take heart that they are still a force to be reckoned with at the ballot box (as evidenced by the fact that those with all the power & privileges are still afraid to face the electorate).

Dengue fever is still a force to be reckoned with, but that's nothing to celebrate.

Presumably the dengue fever is the status quo, and the mosquito are the military?

Edited August 22, 2010 by ogb

[Ulysses G.]

Dengue fever is still a force to be reckoned with, but that's nothing to celebrate.

I'm afraid that Jingthing has a valid point.

[CMX]

"To me the whole movement is closer to pre-war national socialism (in that it is based on emotional manipulation through total distortions of the truth and plain lies." - OP

I'm confused. The "Reds" are to be compared to Nazis now? "Total distortion of the truth and plain lies" are not, historically and presently, the stuff of politics? (I'm from the States, probably untrue elsewhere - or a matter of degree hard to measure?) Also, is the implication of using the term "Reds" not that Reds mean Communist ideas and that is why people do not say "Red Shirts?" Totalitarians share some behaviors, to be sure, but calling "Reds" Nazis is putting poison into the (already poisoned) well.

Also, I have the impression from remarks here that most of the tragic deaths in BKK were NOT those citizens supporting the red shirt protest? From bullets the sources of which have not been traced or compared, so far as anybody knows?

And yes, freedom of assembly after being denied when exercised is frightening? Or is it that when those WE approve assemble it is OK and when THEY, of whom we do not, it is not. I'm confused.

And as a newcomer here with no memories (+ or -) of Thaksin in office but one who did visit in '98 and caught a drift of things, I wonder who is it that is responsible for creating a political horizon, a lexicon, that led the terms in public discussion in national politics from a level of vague harmonizing personal qualities to where present day "roadmap," pithy and specific, to be part of establishment rhetoric?

Oh well, analogies are usually traps anyway.

[philw]

Good to see that they cannot be cowed into submission, despite their kind being killed, detained and censored.

Unfortunately, not enough of them

That really is very ugly.........

Calling for more death and destruction are you ??

Very smart.

Edited August 22, 2010 by philw

[dru2]

.....To me the whole movement is closer to pre-war national socialism...

Absolutely correct. Uncritical adulation of Thaksin as leader, use of violence to intimidate anyone who disagrees, anti-gay, anti-ladyboy as 'un-Thai', repeated calls to attack Thai Muslims - especially Arisaman's call to 'burn down every mosque in the country' and, on a less serious but more aesthetically offensive note, Jatuporn's remarkable physiognomic similarity to Mussolini. I find them disturbing, too, and regret that elements of the international media represent them as being some kind of grass-roots left-wing opposition movement. I think the red movement is far closer to pre-war Italian fascism than to socialism, and of course they share much of the ideology of Thailand's World War II fascist dictator Pibul Songkhram.

Edited August 22, 2010 by dru2

[rodcourt49]

There was a ton of them at Thapae Gate last night with redshirt speakers on stage and selling Thaksin T shirts - etc. They behaved themselves though.

How many T shirts did the tourist pick up?

..well not so funny..actually it was very intimidating on their part..200+ of them waving flags, carrying banners and clappers..an entourage just walking en masse the whole width of the Walking Street blocking the way for folk wanting to walk in either direction..every 50m or so they would stop and block the whole road whilst they repeated their childish chants then move on. Many foreign visitors were visually stunned and scared of what they were confronted with and looked for reassurance.

[ogb]

.....To me the whole movement is closer to pre-war national socialism...

Absolutely correct. Uncritical adulation of Thaksin as leader, use of violence to intimidate anyone who disagrees, anti-gay, anti-ladyboy as 'un-Thai', repeated calls to attack Thai Muslims - especially Arisaman's call to 'burn down every mosque in the country' and, on a less serious but more aesthetically offensive note, Jatuporn's remarkable physiognomic similarity to Mussolini. I find them disturbing, too, and regret that elements of the international media represent them as being some kind of grass-roots left-wing opposition movement. I think the red movement is far closer to pre-war Italian fascism than to socialism, and of course they share much of the ideology of Thailand's World War II fascist dictator Pibul Songkhram.

Agree the reds are not squeaky clean and they need to see Thaksin's warts as well as his halo, but what of their opponents?

Bottom line is the reds are still trying to undo an illegal military coup, and its a great pity that the rest of the populace has been so easily hoodwinked (or cowed)

The propaganda war is ongoing, and redshirts are playing an important part in the ongoing eyeopening

(for Thai's, and the rest of the world)

btw, your Pibul analogy seems way off when it's clear they identify more with Pridi, and I think you will find the National Socialist comparison is a better fit with the PAD better than the UDD

[dru2]

.....To me the whole movement is closer to pre-war national socialism...

Absolutely correct. Uncritical adulation of Thaksin as leader, use of violence to intimidate anyone who disagrees, anti-gay, anti-ladyboy as 'un-Thai', repeated calls to attack Thai Muslims - especially Arisaman's call to 'burn down every mosque in the country' and, on a less serious but more aesthetically offensive note, Jatuporn's remarkable physiognomic similarity to Mussolini. I find them disturbing, too, and regret that elements of the international media represent them as being some kind of grass-roots left-wing opposition movement. I think the red movement is far closer to pre-war Italian fascism than to socialism, and of course they share much of the ideology of Thailand's World War II fascist dictator Pibul Songkhram.

Agree the reds are not squeaky clean and they need to see Thaksin's warts as well as his halo, but what of their opponents?

Bottom line is the reds are still trying to undo an illegal military coup, and its a great pity that the rest of the populace has been so easily hoodwinked (or cowed)

The propaganda war is ongoing, and redshirts are playing an important part in the ongoing eyeopening

(for Thai's, and the rest of the world)

btw, your Pibul analogy seems way off when it's clear they identify more with Pridi, and I think you will find the National Socialist comparison is a better fit with the PAD better than the UDD

Pridi was a socialist. He did not attack ethnic and religious minorities or gays and, to the best of my knowledge, he did not use violence to intimidate those who disagreed with him. But you are right about the yellows, of course, and I would have included them in my comments had they been out and about in Chiang Mai last night.

[ogb]

There was a ton of them at Thapae Gate last night with redshirt speakers on stage and selling Thaksin T shirts - etc. They behaved themselves though.

How many T shirts did the tourist pick up?

..well not so funny..actually it was very intimidating on their part..200+ of them waving flags, carrying banners and clappers..an entourage just walking en masse the whole width of the Walking Street blocking the way for folk wanting to walk in either direction..every 50m or so they would stop and block the whole road whilst they repeated their childish chants then move on. Many foreign visitors were visually stunned and scared of what they were confronted with and looked for reassurance.

Next time why not try talking with them? You might be surprised

Fear of the unknown often followed by dehumanising of 'the other' - just perpetuates the great divide - an old tactic that allows the bad guys to maintain control through repression

[ogb]

.....To me the whole movement is closer to pre-war national socialism...

Absolutely correct. Uncritical adulation of Thaksin as leader, use of violence to intimidate anyone who disagrees, anti-gay, anti-ladyboy as 'un-Thai', repeated calls to attack Thai Muslims - especially Arisaman's call to 'burn down every mosque in the country' and, on a less serious but more aesthetically offensive note, Jatuporn's remarkable physiognomic similarity to Mussolini. I find them disturbing, too, and regret that elements of the international media represent them as being some kind of grass-roots left-wing opposition movement. I think the red movement is far closer to pre-war Italian fascism than to socialism, and of course they share much of the ideology of Thailand's World War II fascist dictator Pibul Songkhram.

Agree the reds are not squeaky clean and they need to see Thaksin's warts as well as his halo, but what of their opponents?

Bottom line is the reds are still trying to undo an illegal military coup, and its a great pity that the rest of the populace has been so easily hoodwinked (or cowed)

The propaganda war is ongoing, and redshirts are playing an important part in the ongoing eyeopening

(for Thai's, and the rest of the world)

btw, your Pibul analogy seems way off when it's clear they identify more with Pridi, and I think you will find the National Socialist comparison is a better fit with the PAD better than the UDD

Pridi was a socialist. He did not attack ethnic and religious minorities or gays and, to the best of my knowledge, he did not use violence to intimidate those who disagreed with him. But you are right about the yellows, of course, and I would have included them in my comments had they been out and about in Chiang Mai last night.

The ignorant attacks by some redshirts does not define their whole movement, and to continually emphasize them plays right into the hands of those who are the real problem in Thailand.

A peaceful protest asking for accountability for a large number of deaths at the hands of the government seems a lot more innocuous to me than what Veera Somkwamkid and his PAD cohorts are doing over the PV temple issue.

[philw]

.....To me the whole movement is closer to pre-war national socialism...

Absolutely correct. Uncritical adulation of Thaksin as leader, use of violence to intimidate anyone who disagrees, anti-gay, anti-ladyboy as 'un-Thai', repeated calls to attack Thai Muslims - especially Arisaman's call to 'burn down every mosque in the country' and, on a less serious but more aesthetically offensive note, Jatuporn's remarkable physiognomic similarity to Mussolini. I find them disturbing, too, and regret that elements of the international media represent them as being some kind of grass-roots left-wing opposition movement. I think the red movement is far closer to pre-war Italian fascism than to socialism, and of course they share much of the ideology of Thailand's World War II fascist dictator Pibul Songkhram.

Agree the reds are not squeaky clean and they need to see Thaksin's warts as well as his halo, but what of their opponents?

Bottom line is the reds are still trying to undo an illegal military coup, and its a great pity that the rest of the populace has been so easily hoodwinked (or cowed)

The propaganda war is ongoing, and redshirts are playing an important part in the ongoing eyeopening

(for Thai's, and the rest of the world)

btw, your Pibul analogy seems way off when it's clear they identify more with Pridi, and I think you will find the National Socialist comparison is a better fit with the PAD better than the UDD

Pridi was a socialist. He did not attack ethnic and religious minorities or gays and, to the best of my knowledge, he did not use violence to intimidate those who disagreed with him. But you are right about the yellows, of course, and I would have included them in my comments had they been out and about in Chiang Mai last night.

The ignorant attacks by some redshirts does not define their whole movement, and to continually emphasize them plays right into the hands of those who are the real problem in Thailand.

A peaceful protest asking for accountability for a large number of deaths at the hands of the government seems a lot more innocuous to me than what Veera Somkwamkid and his PAD cohorts are doing over the PV temple issue.

Good post and spot on !!

[ianf]

.....To me the whole movement is closer to pre-war national socialism...

Absolutely correct. Uncritical adulation of Thaksin as leader, use of violence to intimidate anyone who disagrees, anti-gay, anti-ladyboy as 'un-Thai', repeated calls to attack Thai Muslims - especially Arisaman's call to 'burn down every mosque in the country' and, on a less serious but more aesthetically offensive note, Jatuporn's remarkable physiognomic similarity to Mussolini. I find them disturbing, too, and regret that elements of the international media represent them as being some kind of grass-roots left-wing opposition movement. I think the red movement is far closer to pre-war Italian fascism than to socialism, and of course they share much of the ideology of Thailand's World War II fascist dictator Pibul Songkhram.

Agree the reds are not squeaky clean and they need to see Thaksin's warts as well as his halo, but what of their opponents?

Bottom line is the reds are still trying to undo an illegal military coup, and its a great pity that the rest of the populace has been so easily hoodwinked (or cowed)

The propaganda war is ongoing, and redshirts are playing an important part in the ongoing eyeopening

(for Thai's, and the rest of the world)

btw, your Pibul analogy seems way off when it's clear they identify more with Pridi, and I think you will find the National Socialist comparison is a better fit with the PAD better than the UDD

Pridi was a socialist. He did not attack ethnic and religious minorities or gays and, to the best of my knowledge, he did not use violence to intimidate those who disagreed with him. But you are right about the yellows, of course, and I would have included them in my comments had they been out and about in Chiang Mai last night.

The ignorant attacks by some redshirts does not define their whole movement, and to continually emphasize them plays right into the hands of those who are the real problem in Thailand.

A peaceful protest asking for accountability for a large number of deaths at the hands of the government seems a lot more innocuous to me than what Veera Somkwamkid and his PAD cohorts are doing over the PV temple issue.

Apart from one or two silly posters with snide comments this has opened up a debate, uh? When I speak about the similarities with pre-war national socialism these are real. I think those who disagree should wade their way through The Mass Psychology of Fascism (Reich) and Hitler's Mein Kampf. Hitler himself said that you cannot create a movement through "argumentation" but rather emphasised the use of emotional manipulation. If any of you pro-red posters looked at this stuff a bit closer, then it may also give you the willies. As a resident here I fear for the future if these people take power. We won't be living in the same Thailand. In the present legally elected government we have a PM who, although his hands have been tied by old Thai politics, has tried to move politics into a new era and genuinely wants to see real democracy here. The reds only ever used 'democracy' as a rallying point (a sham) and have never explained how their version of 'democracy' would work. They have no real policies, only a lust for individual power and a return of their leader, the great murderer and thief himself. So if you had read my post correctly, then you would have understood that it was not the simple act of having a demonstration or gathering, but rather what I find frightening is what they represent. At 7pm there were about 2000 of them, by 9:30 they had mainly dispersed. The Thai people I was with (Thai graduates) were also frightened. Absolutely.

[dru2]

"The ignorant attacks by some redshirts does not define their whole movement, and to continually emphasize them plays right into the hands of those who are the real problem in Thailand".

Unfortunately "the ignorant attacks by some red shirts" you are referring to were not made by some rank and file street thugs, but by most of the red shirt top leadership, including Jatuporn Prompan, Nattawut Saikua and Arisaman Pongruangrong, all of whom have called openly and repeatedly for all kinds of violence, arson, murder and mayhem. This rather detracts from your argument. When the red shirts abandon Thaksin, Jatuporn, Nattawut and Arisaman I will happily reconsider my position.

And yes, IanF, it has turned into a rather interesting debate.

[Puwa]

Ketchup and mustard are both cheap condiments, whipped up in corporate laboratories for the thoughtless consumption of the masses. Ronald Reagan listed ketchup as a vegetable so it could be included in school lunch programs. Grey Poupon had a famous round of television ads showing two Rolls Royces exchanging mustard on an English country road. Both are propped up by unsavory political agendas and crass marketing. Thailand has been caught up in the war between Ketchup and Mustard for the past few years, watching in fascination as the manipulated grassroots tomatoes rain down on the waxy splendor of the Rolls, and as the big yellow motorcars cavort amid the chaos. Who suffers most? Our tongues, as they grow numb and accepting of the tasteless meal served up every day.

Edited August 23, 2010 by Puwa

[Ulysses G.]

The ignorant attacks by some redshirts does not define their whole movement, and to continually emphasize them plays right into the hands of those who are the real problem in Thailand.

A lot of us were sympathetic before they turned down the PM's peace deal and before May 19, but actions speak louder than words. I'm afraid that they will be forever defined by their actions on that terrible day.

Edited August 23, 2010 by Ulysses G.

[ogb]

I suppose it all comes down to whether one trusts in democracy or not.

The leaders in Thailand (elected, and otherwise) have never trusted in democracy (including especially the current PM)

For me the events of the last several years has confirmed that no one group has a clear view of what's 'right', and therefore I think it's best to trust in the people as a whole - it's their country after all.

The best hope for Thailand's future is for election results to be allowed to stand without interference - let the people elect and remove their leaders according to their collective will.

For those who disagree with the result of elections, they can highlight what they perceive as the wrongs of the government of the day, and hope that the people agree with them at the next election.

(it's time PAD, UDD, politicians, the military and all the other players in the shadows adhered to that basic democracy concept, but unfortunately until an election is held that process cannot even start, because the current government is an extension of the illegal 2006 military coup)

Ulysses G: As for the reasons for the pent up anger underlying the May 19 burnings, I think that is left for another place, as there is no hope of getting to the underlying causes in this forum.