เพิ่งจะ

[DavidHouston]

A. Does: "ฉันเพิ่งจะเข้าบ้าน" mean, 1. "I am just about to get home [i'm just about to get in the house.]." or 2. "I just got home [i've just got into the house." ?

B. Does: ฉันเพิ่งเข้าบ้าน" have a different meaning?

Thanks.

[mikenyork]

My "key informant" (it occurs to me that using such a key informant may be 'cheating' in the context of this forum, but anyway) said at first that "ฉันเพิ่งจะเข้าบ้าน" meant that "I have just arrived in front of the house and am about to enter" whereas "ฉันเพิ่งเข้าบ้าน" meant "I have just arrived inside the house". However, upon being pressed a bit by comments such as "But Thai people say ฉันผึ่งจะมาถึงบ้านเดี๋ยวนี้เอง meaning that they just arrived home this minute", key informant admitted that Thai just isn't capable of using mere grammar to make these fine distinctions in time. This is my experience with the language, that it just isn't designed to slice and dice time the way English is and the meaning of different phrases like those just mentioned aren't clear cut or crystal clear. In the many years I lived among the Thai immigrant community in the United States, when absolutely mutually exclusive parsing of time in a sequence of events was required (usually to try to settle an argument about who said what when to whom), it was not unusual for Thai immigrants to switch to "Thaiglish", using English verb forms to clarify their version of events.

Edited August 23, 2010 by mikenyork

[DavidHouston]

My "key informant" (it occurs to me that using such a key informant may be 'cheating' in the context of this forum, but anyway) said at first that "ฉันเพิ่งจะเข้าบ้าน" meant that "I have just arrived in front of the house and am about to enter" whereas "ฉันเพิ่งเข้าบ้าน" meant "I have just arrived inside the house". However, upon being pressed a bit by comments such as "But Thai people say ฉันผึ่งจะมาถึงบ้านเดี๋ยวนี้เอง meaning that they just arrived home this minute", key informant admitted that Thai just isn't capable of using mere grammar to make these fine distinctions in time. This is my experience with the language, that it just isn't designed to slice and dice time the way English is and the meaning of different phrases like those just mentioned aren't clear cut or crystal clear. In the many years I lived among the Thai immigrant community in the United States, when absolutely mutually exclusive parsing of time in a sequence of events was required (usually to try to settle an argument about who said what when to whom), it was not unusual for Thai immigrants to switch to "Thaiglish", using English verb forms to clarify their version of events.

Bui and her sister responded in a similar manner: "ฉันเพิ่งเข้าบ้าน" is the "correct" rendition, although people do say "ฉันเพิ่งจะเข้าบ้าน" to mean "I just go home" (i.e., I'm in the house already). On reflection, both questioned the correctness of adding จะ. Nevertheless, the grammar book I am reading says, "ฉันเพิ่งจะเข้าบ้าน". Personally, I like the idea of the "real" meaning being, "I am just about to enter my house."

For the record, Lexitron does have this phrase, and it says,

" เพิ่งจะ [AUX] just; just now

Syn. พึ่ง, พึ่งจะ, เพิ่ง

Def. คำช่วยกริยาหมายถึงเวลาที่ล่วงไปหยกๆ ในขณะที่พูดนั้น.

Sample:ฉันเพิ่งจะสังเกตว่าเขาแอบมองฉันอยู่จริงๆ"

My rendering of the sample: "I just noticed that he really is stalking me."

As for the definition,. "คำช่วยกริยาหมายถึงเวลาที่ล่วงไปหยกๆ ในขณะที่พูดนั้น"

my take would be, "An auxiliary verb meaning a period of time in the immediate past, directly prior to the utterance."

I am now experiencing cognitive dissonance.

What do you thin?

[SoftWater]

Mike, could it be that Thai actually is designed to 'slice & dice' time just as well as English, as the use of จะ would indicate 'about to' here (I believe that your key informant's first answer and David's first guess are both technically correct), but that Thai speakers do not use it as strictly as the rules prescribe?

When talking about the near present, similar ambiguity is possible in English too - you're just putting the key in the door and could equally report (say you're on the phone as you do it: )

'I'm just about to go through the door' / I'm just going through the door' / 'I'm already home' / 'I'm home now'.

Well I'm signing off this post now (or have I signed off already?).

Edited August 23, 2010 by SoftWater

[SoftWater]

David: it appears we were cross posting.

I don't know which grammar book you're reading, but (contrary to what I just posted above!) Iwasaki doesn't list เพิ่งจะ as a phrasal for 'about to' (probably เกือบจะ would be better for the meaning you want? 'just about to arrive home'), and nor would the use of จะ in this context fit his criterion that จะ always implies 'challengeability'. That would appear to provide academic support for your wife's native speaker instinct that จะ is out of place here.

Edited August 23, 2010 by SoftWater

[mikenyork]

I think what you say may be theoretically correct. But I encourage you to try getting absolute, crystal clarity from a Thai when you use the several phrases that David proposes. My experience is that when you try to pin down the precise meaning of each word/phrase describing event sequence, Thais become unsure about it themselves. This is not meant as a criticism of the language. Think for a moment about the fine distinctions of relationship that can be clearly expressed in Thai by using alternative pronoun pairs (and by making other word choices appropriate for the chosen pronoun pairs). It just isn't possible to do this in English in the same way. Sure, eventually you can explain relationships in English. But you can't accomplish limning them out in the simple, clearcut way it is done routinely in Thai. English just isn't set up to do it. Time seems to me to be a parallel case for Thai. Yes, you can eventually get to the same level of understanding about sequence as you can in English, but it isn't easy and just when you think you've got it pinned down, it's likely to go "slip slidin' away". IMHO. I'm not nor shall I ever be เจ้าของภาษา

[RickBradford]

Some points:

1) Where does กำลังจะ fit into the chronology - does it also mean 'about to'?

2) How do we comprehend or render the tense represented by the word 'เพิ่ง'. ?

A call to protestors during the recent unpleasantness in Bangkok to stay and not abandon their positions was: "อย่าเพิ่งเก็บผ้ากลับบ้าน"

Edited August 23, 2010 by RickBradford

[DavidHouston]

Seems to me that "อย่าเพิ่ง" is an imperative phrase meaning, "don't be so quick to . . ."; "just wait a minute"; "hold off on doing something", etc. Sometimes "อย่าเพิ่ง" is a whole sentence by itself. Rick's sentence is a good example of this usage.

Here is another example of an interview from two years ago:

"@ โควต้าตำแหน่งต่างๆที่จะจัดสรรให้แต่ละกลุ่มเป็นอย่างไร

-อย่าเพิ่งพูดถึง ให้จัดตั้งรัฐบาลได้เสียก่อน"

Question: "How will you apportion out [Ministry] positions to each faction?"

"Don't be so quick to discuss [this issue]. Please let us set up our government first." Or,

""Let's not discuss these issues yet . . . ""

[DavidHouston]

David: it appears we were cross posting.

I don't know which grammar book you're reading, but (contrary to what I just posted above!) Iwasaki doesn't list เพิ่งจะ as a phrasal for 'about to' (probably เกือบจะ would be better for the meaning you want? 'just about to arrive home'), and nor would the use of จะ in this context fit his criterion that จะ always implies 'challengeability'. That would appear to provide academic support for your wife's native speaker instinct that จะ is out of place here.

Just for reference purposes, the text is "คู่มือหลักและการใช้ภาษาไทย ฉบับสมบูรณ์" จงจิต นิมมานนรเทพ, อาจารย์ ๓ ระดับ ๘ ครูภาษาไทยดีเด่น, บริษัท สำนักงานพิมพ์เดอะบุคส์ จำกัด, 2551.

[tombkk]

Some points:

1) Where does กำลังจะ fit into the chronology - does it also mean 'about to'?

2) How do we comprehend or render the tense represented by the word 'เพิ่ง'. ?

A call to protestors during the recent unpleasantness in Bangkok to stay and not abandon their positions was: "อย่าเพิ่งเก็บผ้ากลับบ้าน"

อย่าเพิ่ง = don't even start, don't even think of

กำลังจะ = about to (I am about to go home)

เพิ่งจะ = about to (I am about to arrive at home)

The difference between the third and the second is semantical. I can be in the office and say I am about to go home, but I can also be on the driveway and say that. And vice versa. So it's either up to the speaker, or up to the usage of the speaker's region.

[bhoydy]

was the rest of Rick's sentence ช่วยเราเผากรุงเทพ by any chance

[tgeezer]

This is what I think the dictionary says.

พึ่ง An auxiliuary verb meaning time which is passing in the moment of speaking' or in English 'present time' The verb form of the noun ขณะนี้ or ปัจจับัน or the adjective เดี๋ยวนี้

พึ่งจะ 'now will' 'soon'

พึ่งจะถึงบ้าน will soon reach the house.

พึ่งถึงบ้าน now arriving at the house.

มา combined with a verb means the situation(ถึงบ้าน) immediately preceeded the present time,

เราพึ่งมาถึงบ้าน We have just arrived at the house; มาถึงบ้านแล้ว would seem better, but there seems to be redundancy in both.

[anywherebutthere]

For Thai meaning,

"เพิ่ง" and "เพิ่งจะ" are similar. but "เพิ่งจะ" is more fresh/present.

ฉันเพิ่งจะเข้าบ้าน = I just entered to house (while I am saying... as a second)

ฉันเพิ่งเข้าบ้าน = I already entered house >> may be a few minute

If you say ฉันเพิ่งจะถึงบ้าน = you just arrived home but may be not enter. or you may be at the door.

For ฉันเพิ่งถึงบ้าน it usually that you already arrived home and already in.

Edited August 23, 2010 by anywherebutthere

[hiero]

เพิ่งกลับบ้าน - I have just got home < does that work?

[DavidHouston]

I finally found a reference to เพิ่งจะ in "A Reference Grammar of Thai" by Shoichi Iwasaki and Preeya Ingkaphirom, 2005, page 165:

" 'เพิ่ง(จะ)' . . . 'just done; just begun; just finished doing.' (Immediate perfect/anterior): This aspect refers to an action which has just happened (i.e., 'just begin' or 'just finished'), and hence has a current relevance. จะ is optional in the following examples, but when it follows เพิ่ง, the sentence implies that the event was expected earlier but has just been realized.

'ครูอธิบายให้ฟัง แต่ผมเพิ่ง(จะ)เข้าใจ

'I have just understood what the teacher has been explaining (for a while).' "

There y' go!

[mikenyork]

Thank you David. I really do learn a lot by following this forum! Your library of Thai dictionaries and grammars must be something to behold!!! It's so interesting that จะ "officially" has this meaning of reinforcing the idea of an event just completed in addition to its more widely understood meaning of indicating a future event. I'm not sure I'm justified in making the following inference, but, to me, it is another indication that Thai just doesn't really "see" time in quite the linear, one-dimensional way that English does. It would take someone who grew up with both languages and who has thought about this issue to confirm whether or not this be true, but Thais have assured me countless times that something was already complete ("เขาไปแล้ว!") when, in fact the event was only at that point about to happen. Now it is true that all humans are perfectly capable of dissembling. But this has come to seem to me to be more than just that. If I tell your wife that "he already left" when in fact you're still sitting at my bar, I know I'm lying. I just don't get the feeling that Thais see it in quite the same cut and dried way. In any event, thanks for your diligence in documenting this use of จะ.

[bhoydy]

the sentence implies that the event was expected earlier but has just been realized.

Ah, that'll be why my good lady always says เพิ่งจะตื่น when she gets up at lunch time.

[SoftWater]

Well done David; I hunted through Iwasaki for like...long enough...but still missed p165.

Regarding อย่าเพิ่ง - I hear this about 20 times a day from my kids; whatever you want them to do, it's always อย่าเพิ่ง! until they're ready to do it. The meaning is - undoubtedly and uncontroversially correlated by a thousand examples of wide diversity - "Wait a minute!'

[SoftWater]

I'm not sure I'm justified in making the following inference, but, to me, it is another indication that Thai just doesn't really "see" time in quite the linear, one-dimensional way that English does. It would take someone who grew up with both languages and who has thought about this issue to confirm whether or not this be true, but Thais have assured me countless times that something was already complete ("เขาไปแล้ว!") when, in fact the event was only at that point about to happen. Now it is true that all humans are perfectly capable of dissembling. But this has come to seem to me to be more than just that. If I tell your wife that "he already left" when in fact you're still sitting at my bar, I know I'm lying. I just don't get the feeling that Thais see it in quite the same cut and dried way. In any event, thanks for your diligence in documenting this use of จะ.

The idea that Thai's might 'see' time differently sounds like a variant of the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis. I have had (frustratingly) similar experiences to yours, though I'm sure my exposure to Thai has been far less. However, while I don't doubt your observations, I'm less than convinced by the inference. If it were true, I think its consequences would be more far-reaching than just the occasional ambiguity in description, and if Thais were not capable of carving up time the way other speakers do, I'm not sure that they would be able to either describe, manufacture or operate complex mechanical and computer engineering products and tasks (something they're pretty good at actually, particularly robotics) either.

Methinks it's just a lack of concern with accuracy in everyday speech, rather than a lack of ability - linguistically or cognitively - to be able to make the same temporal discriminations as others.

[bhoydy]

Just watching a film on tv and Robin Williams' line was 'Now, just a second', the accompanying subtitle was อย่าเพิ่งสิ

[mikenyork]

Dear Softwater:

Very interesting and thoughtful reply. Thailand is a land of paradoxes and maybe this is just another one. To wit: Thais don't think in discreet time segments as we do in the west. (Arguably true). BUT/AND Thais are some of the most creative robot makers on the planet (demonstrably true) and robotics absolutely requires detailed sequenced thinking. Which of these propositions about Thais is true? EXACTLY. Ever try to get a house painted? Notice the degree of detail (sic)? Ever go to the Grand Palace and see the absolutely mind-blowing detail painting covering thousands and thousands of square feet? Why couldn't they do this on my house? EXACTLY.

[SoftWater]

At the risk of sounding facetious, which I certainly don't mean to, the painters round your house and the aritsans who painted the Grand Palace are no more of a 'paradox' than Michelangelo and your common-a-garden painter and decorator, or me strumming a guitar and Jimi Hendrix (i.e., people of different skill levels).

Likewise, I don't see any evidence that Thai's cannot be accurate about time when they find a good reason to be. One of the most common frustrations at my work is a lack of punctuality by staff members, particularly at meetings - not because they can't be on time, but just because they don't think that punctuality is particulary important.

I guess the difference between our opinions is I think its is volitional (the occasional lack of accuracy in time-specification, I mean), whereas you seem to think it may be some cognitive-linguistic inability.

An interesting diversion, but probably 'nuff said before someone complains we're OT!