Viktor Bout: No Recording Of Meeting With Thai MP Sirichoke

[IAMSOBAD]

Do you need a Work Permit from the red shirts to attend Thai meetings on a regular basis ..take notes. .make recordings...and then write in detail what BS you decide is news we should read and trust?

[Buchholz]

The story a real big issue and apart from the international implications its a major embarrassment because Viktor Bout is essentially saying that a representative of the PM and the government was asking for his advice on how to commit a terrorist act. Deliberately bringing down a private civil aircraft is a terrorist act.

Were you also present at that discussion as well?

Is that the wording Sirichoke used?

[whybother]

@Buchholz

The video takes some time to download; maybe a few minutes, depending on the connection you have. It only starts after it's downloaded completely. Don't take it too serious - it's a joke.

This issue already started with such a big lie...

After Jatuporn's allegations, Abhisit denied that Sirichoke was at the prison talking to Bout. Then Sirichoke came out denying the PM's claim and admitted that he visited Bout at the prison.

The story a real big issue and apart from the international implications its a major embarrassment because Viktor Bout is essentially saying that a representative of the PM and the government was asking for his advice on how to commit a terrorist act. Deliberately bringing down a private civil aircraft is a terrorist act.

You go on about the mis-representation of "notes" and "recordings" and then you try and represent a comment about "bringing down a plane" as meaning blowing it up or shooting it down ie a terrorist act.

In your own posts, you say that Bout responded with "Ask the US because the plane is registered in the US". Given that response, Bout obviously didn't think it was about blowing it up. What has registration got to do with blowing up a plane?

[Buchholz]

When you are ready with that little reading exercise you probably know more about the quality of journalism you get with The Nation.

I'm more interested in the quality of the other unnamed journalists I'm getting here which is at least aptly described as:

Don't take it too serious - it's a joke.

[hammered]

Games. Government have an agenda, Bout has an agenda (desperate agenda, wouldnt we all in his position). Opposition have an agenda. The propagandists have an agenda. Nice soap opera though. Would take it all with a pinch of salt

Be interesting to see the final outcome.

[TallForeigner]

@whybother & Buchholz

Alla Bout was reading Viktor Bout's statement yesterday at the pressconference.

She was reading in Russian and was translated by a translator. You can hear it on the tape. Alla Bout was reading that Sirichoke asked Viktor Bout for his advice on how to "intercept" Dr. Shinawatra's airplane and how to catch him. Later the translator specified that the Russian word Viktor Bout used for "intercept" also has the meaning of shooting down an aircraft.

Obviously Viktor Bout didn't want to have anything to do with that.

You can also find this story about shooting down Dr. Shinawatra's plane on the title page of the Bangkokpost - it is a big story indeed in the media that is not attached to the Nation group....

I'm not the only one mentioning this and I am not making something up here.

Well, "whybother" do you really deny that deliberately shooting down a private civil aircraft is a terrorist act?

[way2muchcoffee]

Alla Bout was reading that Sirichoke asked Viktor Bout for his advice on how to "intercept" Dr. Shinawatra's airplane and how to catch him. Later the translator specified that the Russian word Viktor Bout used for "intercept" also has the meaning of shooting down an aircraft.

This is inconsistent. If intercept was meant to be shooting down, why questions about how to 'catch' Thaksin? Catch means to bring him into custody. Intercept means to find and force to the ground.

Mountains and molehills. Biases abound. Propaganda from every side is designed to confuse.

Edited August 28, 2010 by way2muchcoffee

[whybother]

<snip>

Well, "whybother" do you really deny that deliberately shooting down a private civil aircraft is a terrorist act?

I wasn't questioning whether it was a terrorist attack. I was questioning your representation of what was said.

The Russian word for "intercept" CAN ALSO mean "to shoot down".

You're representation of the word shows your agenda. You ignore the rest of comments and take it out of context.

The other comments around that term indicate that the interest is in capturing Thaksin, not shooting him out of the sky.

[ballpoint]

Thank you for that report.

What the Thai government or that MP wanted from Bout is the thing we should discuss. That is the interesting part in this drama of international affairs and not some 'tape' or 'recordings' some red shirts claims to have.

I agree. I will not post anything again here on Khun Jatuporn and his claim of records.

Considering the thread title

Viktor Bout: No Recording Of Meeting With Thai MP Sirichoke

I take great heart in seeing you write that as we will be spared any further spinning and down right lies on the topic.

The claim that Jatupron was talking about an audio tape recording was alledgedly put into his mouth by the media.

He was talking about a record - that could also be in form of written notes by Viktor Bout. And that record is exactly what was published yesterday.

Jatuporn first brought this up during the budget debate. I never saw any journalists sitting beside him, putting these words in his mouth.

The whole business reeks. Okay, a government MP goes along to a convicted arms dealer and tries to link him with Thailands current number one instigator of terror. Considering the arms captured at Don Muang, their supposed destination, and the fact that the self same terror instigator just happened to be paying a visit to that same destination, some clarification did appear to be in order. While there, the MP also allegedly asks for advice on how to "bring down" a business jet. Seeing as how the airforce, army and navy all have the means to shoot down a plane, indeed, weapons captured from the red shirts show that even they have that means, it's no great feat of deduction to work out that the question referred to bringing down a plane in one piece, if it was ever asked in the first place. Assuming all that is true, how did the information about a meeting between Bout, his wife and Sirichoke reach Jatuporn? A prison guard may have brought the meeting to his attention, but surely not what was discussed? The mere fact that a leak between Bout and/or his wife and Jatuporn exists shows that a link between Bout and Thaksin exists. And you really have to wonder, does Thaksin appreciate Jatuporn running his mouth off, establishing this link, when a far greater bombshell could have been dropped by Bout's wife suddenly calling a press conference and releasing her transcript? Jatuporn's spilling the beans on events about to take place is reminiscent of that other rough shod buffalo, Seh Daeng. Given that a number of people have told me it is their firm belief that Thaksin told the reds to close his (Seh Daeng's) mouth, I can't help but wonder whether the same fate awaits Jatuporn.

[hammered]

ballpoint. a more reasonable analysis than some of the other nonsense on this thread

[TallForeigner]

<snip>

Well, "whybother" do you really deny that deliberately shooting down a private civil aircraft is a terrorist act?

I wasn't questioning whether it was a terrorist attack. I was questioning your representation of what was said.

The Russian word for "intercept" CAN ALSO mean "to shoot down".

You're representation of the word shows your agenda. You ignore the rest of comments and take it out of context.

The other comments around that term indicate that the interest is in capturing Thaksin, not shooting him out of the sky.

Mind that I am just repeating what was said and translated at the press conference. Don't shoot the messenger here. The clarification that the Russian word Viktor used for "intercept" can also mean shoot down was made officially at the press conference. I am just reporting it.

As mentioned, I am not alone with this view of things. Have a look at the Bangkok Post's first page headline: "Bout says MP asked how to take down Thaksin plane"

@ballpoint

You have got an amazing fantasy. You should write some fantasy novels. I would be interested what meeting between Sirichoke, Viktor and Viktor's wife are you talking about? She confirmed yesterday that she didn't attend such meeting; she just had her husband's written record about the meeting.

Edited August 28, 2010 by TallForeigner

[ballpoint]

@ballpoint

You have got an amazing fantasy. You should write some fantasy novels. I would be interested what meeting between Sirichoke, Viktor and Viktor's wife are you talking about? She confirmed yesterday that she didn't attend such meeting; she just had her husband's written record about the meeting.

Ah yes, silly me for believing Jatuporn. Still, it shows he was also lying when he said

... that a Russianspeaking person with ties to the government had tried to persuade Bout to claim that Thaksin was behind an incident in March when a cargo plane loaded with weapons was seized at Don Meuang airport.

It also still doesn't explain how the details of a meeting between two people were given to Jatuporn some time before the transcript was released by Bout's wife. I stand by what I said that either he or she must have done so. The link to Thaksin remains.

[jayboy]

ballpoint. a more reasonable analysis than some of the other nonsense on this thread

Oh right very reasonable (if you suffer from incipient paranoia or even the full blooded version)

And here's something to freak out all the Thaksin obsessives.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-amsterdam/why-the-merchant-of-death_b_696937.html

[Hakuchi]

...Considering the thread title

Viktor Bout: No Recording Of Meeting With Thai MP Sirichoke

...

Yeah good point. Did you bother to read the article too? Did you read anything more about that recording or MP Sirichoke in that article?

[ballpoint]

...Considering the thread title

Viktor Bout: No Recording Of Meeting With Thai MP Sirichoke

...

Yeah good point. Did you bother to read the article too? Did you read anything more about that recording or MP Sirichoke in that article?

Obviously more than you, or you would have known that Jatuporn first brought this up in parliament during the budget debate, and not at the press conference.

[hammered]

ballpoint. a more reasonable analysis than some of the other nonsense on this thread

Oh right very reasonable (if you suffer from incipient paranoia or even the full blooded version)

And here's something to freak out all the Thaksin obsessives.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-amsterdam/why-the-merchant-of-death_b_696937.html

Not paranoia just the recognisiton that if wanting to know how to shoot a plane down you dont ask a guy incarcerated in a jail, the claims of which is certainly the paranoid propagnda spin (oh look some MP asked a question about arms and red shirts and it means our master Thaksin is going to be killed and Jatuporn has..., and Thaksin cant be linked to bad things inspite of having called live on TV for a revolution), but spin is all this is about, and in world terms this little local melee is totally unimportant when considering what Bout is accused of and the failing Russia-US realtions which Thailand finds itself at the center of.

I wouldnt recommend worrying overly what a very highly paid propaganda whore had to say about anything. Interestingly in certain western cicrles there are those who actaully believe that Amsterdam is really a complete egomaniac (and decent businessman who charges a lot for his services) who does everything to build his own image, corporate image and name while actually never ever having suceeded in helping a client. Interesting analysis. Cant say I care one way or the other. A propandist is a propagandist whatever the motivation and Anmsterdam is one Goebbles would have admired, maybe not as much as the NY Times but nevertheless;)

[ballpoint]

ballpoint. a more reasonable analysis than some of the other nonsense on this thread

Oh right very reasonable (if you suffer from incipient paranoia or even the full blooded version)

And here's something to freak out all the Thaksin obsessives.

http://www.huffingto...h_b_696937.html

Yeah, Jatuporn just happened to guess that Sirichoke visited Bout, and what they talked about, and that Bout's wife would release a transcript of that meeting in a few days. Paranoia is when all these posters come on here saying the Thai government wants to kill Thaksin, when they could have shot down his plane had they really wished to. Paranoia is saying that the Thai government had snipers everywhere during the protests, and wanted to get rid of the red leaders, when the former could have done the latter anytime they were on stage. If either were true.

From your link

With regard to Russia, it is time that we understand that we are engaging in a reset with people like Viktor Bout - he is not just some criminal in Russia, he is part of the ruling elite, operating under their instructions, and I would be very surprised if they would be willing to give him up.

Amsterdam is seeing ruling elites every where. I wonder if he checks under the bed for them every night? He's paid to do a job. Based on his previous cases, he doesn't do it very well, but, by god, he does it. Driving a supposed wedge between the Thai government and the US in this case. I just wonder when the Cyrillic version will come out, with the goodies and baddies reversed of course.

Edited August 28, 2010 by ballpoint

[ballpoint]

...A propandist is a propagandist whatever the motivation and Anmsterdam is one Goebbles would have admired, maybe not as much as the NY Times but nevertheless;)

That's Dr Goebbles.

[wintermute]

Thailand is really in a bad position. Who do you want to piss off? Russia or the U.S.? Neither country would hesitate to retaliate in various ways. Russia would take the direct route somewhere down the line but pissing off the U.S. would have graver consequences in the long run.

[hammered]

ballpoint. a more reasonable analysis than some of the other nonsense on this thread

Oh right very reasonable (if you suffer from incipient paranoia or even the full blooded version)

And here's something to freak out all the Thaksin obsessives.

http://www.huffingto...h_b_696937.html

Yeah, Jatuporn just happened to guess that Sirichoke visited Bout, and what they talked about, and that Bout's wife would release a transcript of that meeting in a few days.

From your link

With regard to Russia, it is time that we understand that we are engaging in a reset with people like Viktor Bout - he is not just some criminal in Russia, he is part of the ruling elite, operating under their instructions, and I would be very surprised if they would be willing to give him up.

Amsterdam is seeing ruling elites every where. I wonder if he checks under the bed for them every night? He's paid to do a job. Based on his previous cases, he doesn't do it very well, but, by god, he does it. Driving a supposed wedge between the Thai government and the US in this case. I just wonder when the Cyrillic version will come out, with the goodies and baddies reversed of course.

The propagandist needs to go down on the Russians big time after one of his previous little dalliances into creating memes went a tad wrong for one of his clients leaving our creator of myths and legends linked to those not so favoured in that part of the world. Hey maybe this gives him an opportunity to make amends with the Russian mighty ones.

[Hakuchi]

...Considering the thread title

Viktor Bout: No Recording Of Meeting With Thai MP Sirichoke

...

Yeah good point. Did you bother to read the article too? Did you read anything more about that recording or MP Sirichoke in that article?

Obviously more than you, or you would have known that Jatuporn first brought this up in parliament during the budget debate, and not at the press conference.

Considering THIS THREAD and the article in the OP?

Jatuporns name isn't mentioned before entry #10 and that is really a minor issue here.

[jayboy]

I wouldnt recommend worrying overly what a very highly paid propaganda whore had to say about anything.

"Well paid propaganda whore", a phrase worthy of Goebbels himself.Actually I'm rather taking a shine to Amsterdam who apparently can make an argument coherently, unlike some of his opponents.So bloody what if he's paid.

[hammered]

I wouldnt recommend worrying overly what a very highly paid propaganda whore had to say about anything.

"Well paid propaganda whore", a phrase worthy of Goebbels himself.Actually I'm rather taking a shine to Amsterdam who apparently can make an argument coherently, unlike some of his opponents.So bloody what if he's paid.

He is not just paid but paid to push a line. If he pushes your buttons with his western style (graeco-roman philosophy based analsysis n all that) analysis of his selectively chosen parts of a whole then Im glad you are happy. Some of his opponents using a more eastern philosophy based approach make arguements that arent so easy for us westerners to follow (and often also based on selectively chosen parts of a whole) because they are aimed at a different audience.

Saying coherent arguement can just mean one that makes sense to you based upon the dominant philosophical approach in the region you were raised. Graeco-Roman based philosophy is not all pervasive even though in our more neo-colonial imperialist dreams we may see it as such, and it is certainly mooot whether it is in fact a superior way to actually analyse although it does usually result in a more simple and easy to understand answer although I digress and will end there.

[Buchholz]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-amsterdam/why-the-merchant-of-death_b_696937.html

I wouldnt recommend worrying overly what a very highly paid propaganda whore had to say about anything.

Agreed.

And here's another one for ya, rubl. Just follow the link for this week's dose.

Now waiting for spin from Robert A.

[OzMick]

I wouldnt recommend worrying overly what a very highly paid propaganda whore had to say about anything.

"Well paid propaganda whore", a phrase worthy of Goebbels himself.Actually I'm rather taking a shine to Amsterdam who apparently can make an argument coherently, unlike some of his opponents.So bloody what if he's paid.

Mr Amsterdam's arguments may be coherent but they are not factual. The reason you like them is that they are saying what you want to hear.

[TallForeigner]

Mr Amsterdam's arguments may be coherent but they are not factual. The reason you like them is that they are saying what you want to hear.

Just show us clear and unambiguous evidence for the falseness of even one single of Amsterdam's arguments.

[slapout]

I wonder if the mans billing for service rendered, are as creative as some of his propaganda presentations. Some of his past claims to personal accomplishments could give a good indication of his perchance for embellishment and other literary standards.

[Buchholz]

The propagandist needs to go down on the Russians big time after one of his previous little dalliances into creating memes went a tad wrong for one of his clients leaving our creator of myths and legends linked to those not so favoured in that part of the world. Hey maybe this gives him an opportunity to make amends with the Russian mighty ones.

That aspect certainly does give the the whole situation yet another curve. Amsterdam's earlier defense of the Russian resulted in conviction and what, 7 or 8 years in prison for his client?

If only Thailand would be so lucky enough for him to defend Thaksin here, if and when Thaksin ever returns to face his charges. Thaksin will get 30 years with Amsterdam's expertise.

Edited August 28, 2010 by Buchholz

[siampolee]

If I had Robert Amsterdam in my corner as my advocate I would indeed be a worried man, Amsterdam and his track record indeed leave much to be desired,.

His last high profile, high fee paying client ended up with a lengthy goal sentence,

Perhaps Robert Amsterdam should be claiming a trick record rather than a track record.

His claims regarding membership of some professional organisations are a subject of some doubt .

Indeed Robert Amsterdam and Thaksin make fine bedfellows wallowing in the morass of lies and corruption they have created and even believe in themselves.

Neither of those above named characters would know the truth if it stood up in front of them.

Edited August 28, 2010 by siampolee

[rubl]

Mind that I am just repeating what was said and translated at the press conference. Don't shoot the messenger here. The clarification that the Russian word Viktor used for "intercept" can also mean shoot down was made officially at the press conference. I am just reporting it.

As mentioned, I am not alone with this view of things. Have a look at the Bangkok Post's first page headline: "Bout says MP asked how to take down Thaksin plane"

As you question what was written in the Nation, how come you do not question in a similar way what was written in another newspaper. With all the conflicting nonsense I have read here I think I can only say most cannot be true. What is true .. good question. Probably a good answer is not what was written here IMHO.

Edited August 28, 2010 by rubl