Why Is เลิก A Falling Tone?

[xkkpafi]

Why is เลิก a falling tone? Its a low class consonant and the word ends with a 'k' sound, which surely indicates a high tone, according to the 'rules'.

In fact the other part of the translation for 'cancel' (ยก เลิก) seems to follow the rule as it has a high tone. Does Thai have irregular tones where the 'rules' don't apply?

[Peppy]

It's falling because the vowel is long, like in มาก, for example.

ยก is high because the vowel is short.

[xkkpafi]

It's falling because the vowel is long, like in มาก, for example.

ยก is high because the vowel is short.

Thanks Peppy. So, in general, the length of the vowel takes precedent over the sound of the final consonant when it comes to determining the tone of the word?

[Peppy]

So, in general, the length of the vowel takes precedent over the sound of the final consonant when it comes to determining the tone of the word?

No, no. There's nothing taking precedence over anything else in this case. The vowel length and the sound of the final consonant are both factors in determining the tone (along with the consonant class and presence or non-presence of a tone mark).

The relevant rule here is:

low consonant + no tone mark + long vowel + k/p/t final = falling tone

Whatever book you're using to learn Thai should go over the tone rules thoroughly--they do seem like a lot at first (I put off learning them for nearly a year, even though I started learning to read and write right away) but they're absolutely necessary to be able to read correctly, so don't give up!

[xkkpafi]

So, in general, the length of the vowel takes precedent over the sound of the final consonant when it comes to determining the tone of the word?

No, no. There's nothing taking precedence over anything else in this case. The vowel length and the sound of the final consonant are both factors in determining the tone (along with the consonant class and presence or non-presence of a tone mark).

The relevant rule here is:

low consonant + no tone mark + long vowel + k/p/t final = falling tone

Whatever book you're using to learn Thai should go over the tone rules thoroughly--they do seem like a lot at first (I put off learning them for nearly a year, even though I started learning to read and write right away) but they're absolutely necessary to be able to read correctly, so don't give up!

I know, to be able to read and get these rules right is the key to everything in Thai. In fact in speaking, unless you can 'see' the word and its component parts in your head, there is a high risk of getting the tone wrong, apart for a few hundred common words that one can learn the tone off by rote. Ironically I find the words with tone marks over the top the easiest to deal with. Its that group of words beginning with a low class consonant and different combinations of long or short vowels plus the 'kpt' or 'mng' sound endings (or no consonant ending at all) that seem especially tricky at the moment.

Good luck, you seem to be making more progress than myself!

[RickBradford]

The combination of low consonant + no tone mark + k/p/t final is the only one where the vowel length plays a part.

low consonant + no tone mark + long vowel + k/p/t final = falling tone

low consonant + no tone mark + short vowel + k/p/t final = high tone

If the final is 'open' (ie 'mng' or no consonant), the tone is always mid tone (assuming no tone mark)

Of course, this means you have to learn which vowels are short and which are long.....

[canuckamuck]

I made this little chart, it helps me when I get confused.

[Richard W]

The combination of low consonant + no tone mark + k/p/t final is the only one where the vowel length plays a part.

And even here, you can use the mnemonic that a dead syllable with a short vowel isn't long enough for the pitch to fall. In fact, dead syllables with falling tone are vanishingly rare, and some deny their existence. The exception of the dead syllable with a short vowel spoils the rule that dead syllables are written as though they were written with mai ek, a rule that goes back a long way in Siamese and works for many Tai dialects.

[xkkpafi]

The combination of low consonant + no tone mark + k/p/t final is the only one where the vowel length plays a part.

low consonant + no tone mark + long vowel + k/p/t final = falling tone

low consonant + no tone mark + short vowel + k/p/t final = high tone

If the final is 'open' (ie 'mng' or no consonant), the tone is always mid tone (assuming no tone mark)

Of course, this means you have to learn which vowels are short and which are long.....

Thats a very good way to deal with these low class consonants, many thanks Rick.