Chanote And Land Division

[sune]

Hi,

a Thai company owns the land where I have built a house. All of the land is backed by 5 chanotes in total. Now we are thinking of dividing the land but we are unsure what the result would be. For the sake of starting this discussion:

if we take one land area covered by one chanote and divide it into 5 pieces, will that result in 5 new chanotes?

Thanks

/Sune

[stgrhe]

Yes it would. With regards to the house that was built is it owned by the company too or have you gone through the procedures to own it in your name? Much too many people think they own their houses while they legally do not.

[InterestedObserver]

What is compelling the "Thai company" to subdivide; the business plan, the shareholders, the Managing Director, and how are you involved in this? Do you have a building permit or sales agreement registered in your name at the land office for the house you built? Did you lease the land from the Thai company that your house is built on?

Edited September 5, 2010 by InterestedObserver

[sune]

Hi,

and thanks for your prompt response.

With regards to the house that was built is it owned by the company too or have you gone through the procedures to own it in your name?

Yes, it is legally mine in all aspects of the word.

What is compelling the "Thai company" to subdivide?

I am I want the lot I lease to be covered by a chanote and then store that chanote in my home country just to make it less interesting to sell the land behind my back. Don't misunderstand me, I'm on very good terms with this Thai company and they have agreed to this arrangement, just to make me feel more comfortable with investing further in my house. From my understanding, the chanote is the key document and nothing can be done with that lot without the original chanote being presented. Is that correct?

Do you know of any other ways of locking down a leased lot without having any real influence on the company I lease from? For example: can a contract on 10 x 30 years lease be written instead of messing about with this homebrewed chanote solution?

Thanks again

/Sune

Edited September 5, 2010 by sune

[stgrhe]

With regards to the house that was built is it owned by the company too or have you gone through the procedures to own it in your name?

Yes, it is legally mine in all aspects of the word.

Are you sure about that Sune? The reason for asking this question is that too many people think they own "their" houses on leased land just because the have a written contract and have paid for the house. That is not enough as such a house would still only be regarded as a leased house in legal terms. The house itself must be registered at the land office after the construction has been completed and for that you need the building permit in your name, the house construction / purchase contract and verification that you actually paid for the house. A fee will have to be paid too. Even without the building permit in your name you can succeed to get the rights to the house.

For example: can a contract on 10 x 30 years lease be written instead of messing about with this homebrewed chanote solution?

The law only permits one period of 30 years lease. This may, and the word here is MAY, be extended for a second period but this has never been tested as far as I know.

You have to understand that this lease law, actually "Hire of Immovable Property", was never meant to be used for foreigners' house purchase but for Thai farmers whot could not afford to buy their own land.

[MikeyIdea]

2 things here;

The one who can provide legal charter -> prove the ownership according to law can always get a new chanote, new original chanote. He, or the company he represent, will get a replacement chanote with the same conditions written on the back as the original chanote. I don't know this for sure but I would expect that in case a company owns the land, all that is needed is a police report stating that the chanote is lost, a standard company letter of atterney giving someone the powers to request a replacement one in the name of the company, and the letter of atterney must be signed by the company authorised person.

Long term leasing has been discussed before, 30 years is maximum and nothing beyond that is guaranteed by law

I let my daughter own my land (and I have sole custody - shared custody is enough though) so land is safe but a draw-back is that land must be paid (can't give debt to minors) and another negative aspect is that while it's easy to give to minors, it's difficult to take away again - it's under court supervision so I must go to juvenile court and sale will only be granted if it is good for the child

[InterestedObserver]

Just how is the land your house is built on registered at the local land office? A long-term lease (>3 to 30 years) must be registered at the local land office to be legal. Have you seen the existing Chanote covering the land, is your lease registered on the back? If you don't have land rights (a legal land lease or usufruct) the house probably belongs to the Thai company.

[katabeachbum]

Yes it would.

usually not

Usually 4 new Chanotes are issued for the separated plots, and the existing Chanote gets an attachment stating how its been diveded out 4 new plots

[katabeachbum]

Just how is the land your house is built on registered at the local land office? A long-term lease (>3 to 30 years) must be registered at the local land office to be legal. Have you seen the existing Chanote covering the land, is your lease registered on the back? If you don't have land rights (a legal land lease or usufruct) the house probably belongs to the Thai company.

to become owner of a house, buildingpermit must be issued in your name. then completion must be reported in your name. then a Tabien Baan is issued, and given to you.

to obtain this, most Tessabaan require lease or usufruct registered in land deed, in this case Chanote

[stgrhe]

to become owner of a house, buildingpermit must be issued in your name. then completion must be reported in your name. then a Tabien Baan is issued, and given to you.

to obtain this, most Tessabaan require lease or usufruct registered in land deed, in this case Chanote

First, Tabien Baan has nothing to do with ownership of the house as it is merely a registration of the house itself. Second, although it is a merit to have the building permit in one's name it is actually enough to have a proper land lease, a superficery or a usufruct together with proven payments for the house and a house construction agreement. The latter two need to be taken to the land office together with the land owner and register the house in the buyer's name. Even with a building permit the same registration at the land office must take place or else the house is owned by the land owner.

[katabeachbum]

to become owner of a house, buildingpermit must be issued in your name. then completion must be reported in your name. then a Tabien Baan is issued, and given to you.

to obtain this, most Tessabaan require lease or usufruct registered in land deed, in this case Chanote

First, Tabien Baan has nothing to do with ownership of the house as it is merely a registration of the house itself. Second, although it is a merit to have the building permit in one's name it is actually enough to have a proper land lease, a superficery or a usufruct together with proven payments for the house and a house construction agreement. The latter two need to be taken to the land office together with the land owner and register the house in the buyer's name. Even with a building permit the same registration at the land office must take place or else the house is owned by the land owner.

I didnt say Tabien Baan has anything to do with ownership. It has not.

Most land office require buildingpermit issued in farang name and lease /usufruct registered in Chanote/NS3G to accept farang ownership of structure.

[sune]

2 things here;

The one who can provide legal charter -> prove the ownership according to law can always get a new chanote, new original chanote. He, or the company he represent, will get a replacement chanote with the same conditions written on the back as the original chanote. I don't know this for sure but I would expect that in case a company owns the land, all that is needed is a police report stating that the chanote is lost, a standard company letter of atterney giving someone the powers to request a replacement one in the name of the company, and the letter of atterney must be signed by the company authorised person.

Ok, but:

How do one prove land ownership without the chanote?

[stgrhe]

2 things here;

The one who can provide legal charter -> prove the ownership according to law can always get a new chanote, new original chanote. He, or the company he represent, will get a replacement chanote with the same conditions written on the back as the original chanote. I don't know this for sure but I would expect that in case a company owns the land, all that is needed is a police report stating that the chanote is lost, a standard company letter of atterney giving someone the powers to request a replacement one in the name of the company, and the letter of atterney must be signed by the company authorised person.

Ok, but:

How do one prove land ownership without the chanote?

The chanote is normally held by the land owner, hence in your case probably some of the company owners. First you need to verify that you lease has been properly registered at the land office so you need to ask the holder of the chanote for a copy and have someone translate the text on the back side for you unless you can read Thai yourself. Your land lease should be stated there.

Unless your lease is duly registered on the land title document your lease is for maximum three years so this matter needs to be sorted out first.

[MikeyIdea]

2 things here;

The one who can provide legal charter -> prove the ownership according to law can always get a new chanote, new original chanote. He, or the company he represent, will get a replacement chanote with the same conditions written on the back as the original chanote. I don't know this for sure but I would expect that in case a company owns the land, all that is needed is a police report stating that the chanote is lost, a standard company letter of atterney giving someone the powers to request a replacement one in the name of the company, and the letter of atterney must be signed by the company authorised person.

Ok, but:

How do one prove land ownership without the chanote?

katabeachbum and stgrhe are knowledgeable, trust them

Prove land ownership as farang? Short and easy answer; You cannot to 100% because the law is specifically written to stop that. There are work arounds but they are exactly that, work arounds. Saying that though, they should be good enough

The best you can get, katabeachbum and stgrhe please confirm, is a 30 year lease registered at the back of the chanote. That gives you unconditional access to the land for 30 years regardless of what happens to the Thai company or person owning the chanote. Contracts stipulating longer than 30 year leases have never been tried in court and will *probably* not be honoured. Building permit and house ownership doesn't give you access to the land for longer time than 30 years anyway. You may feel safer with it and it may complicate things for someone who wants "his" land back after 30 years if you have the "everything else" too, but I don't think that anyone knows for sure if it will stand in court, I think probably not. Company owns land and farang via nominee "owns" shares is against the meaning of the law and I don't think that will stand in court if scrutinised either. 30 years is basically life time, my life will be over in approx 30 years time anyway, life-time usufruct ends at the same time as the 30 year lease in my case

Comments please

[katabeachbum]

2 things here;

The one who can provide legal charter -> prove the ownership according to law can always get a new chanote, new original chanote. He, or the company he represent, will get a replacement chanote with the same conditions written on the back as the original chanote. I don't know this for sure but I would expect that in case a company owns the land, all that is needed is a police report stating that the chanote is lost, a standard company letter of atterney giving someone the powers to request a replacement one in the name of the company, and the letter of atterney must be signed by the company authorised person.

Ok, but:

How do one prove land ownership without the chanote?

There are 2 Chanote, one held by owner or anyone else, one in Land office archives. They are identical and both state who the owner is, and if any morgage/lease/usufruct.

If owner loose his Chanote, can apply for a new one but takes LONG time.

[katabeachbum]

2 things here;

The one who can provide legal charter -> prove the ownership according to law can always get a new chanote, new original chanote. He, or the company he represent, will get a replacement chanote with the same conditions written on the back as the original chanote. I don't know this for sure but I would expect that in case a company owns the land, all that is needed is a police report stating that the chanote is lost, a standard company letter of atterney giving someone the powers to request a replacement one in the name of the company, and the letter of atterney must be signed by the company authorised person.

Ok, but:

How do one prove land ownership without the chanote?

katabeachbum and stgrhe are knowledgeable, trust them

Prove land ownership as farang? Short and easy answer; You cannot to 100% because the law is specifically written to stop that. There are work arounds but they are exactly that, work arounds. Saying that though, they should be good enough

The best you can get, katabeachbum and stgrhe please confirm, is a 30 year lease registered at the back of the chanote. That gives you unconditional access to the land for 30 years regardless of what happens to the Thai company or person owning the chanote. Contracts stipulating longer than 30 year leases have never been tried in court and will *probably* not be honoured. Building permit and house ownership doesn't give you access to the land for longer time than 30 years anyway. You may feel safer with it and it may complicate things for someone who wants "his" land back after 30 years if you have the "everything else" too, but I don't think that anyone knows for sure if it will stand in court, I think probably not. Company owns land and farang via nominee "owns" shares is against the meaning of the law and I don't think that will stand in court if scrutinised either. 30 years is basically life time, my life will be over in approx 30 years time anyway, life-time usufruct ends at the same time as the 30 year lease in my case

Comments please

there is no proof of ownership for farang, farang can not own land (few exceptions to this, like 40 mill BoI investment)

farang can lease or usufruct land, which must be registered in Chanote if longer than 3 years. Its written on the Chanotes backside, and the agreement filed at land office. Agreement should state lessee holds Chanote until agreemnet come to an end, since he is the one who has payed for it

None of these are actually unconditional. If you split up with your girlfriend and she is the owner of the land and you lease it. She remains living in the house and change the locks, you are looking forward to 1-5 years in court to get her out and to gain legal access to the property

[InterestedObserver]

.......is a 30 year lease registered at the back of the chanote. That gives you unconditional access to the land for 30 years regardless of what happens to the Thai company or person owning the chanote.

Actually a Usufruct gives unconditional access to the land by Thai law. A lease only provides what's contained in the terms and conditions of said lease, since it is only a contract for the Hire of Property.

Edited September 7, 2010 by InterestedObserver

[MikeyIdea]

.......is a 30 year lease registered at the back of the chanote. That gives you unconditional access to the land for 30 years regardless of what happens to the Thai company or person owning the chanote.

Actually a Usufruct gives unconditional access to the land by Thai law. A lease only provides what's contained in the terms and conditions of said lease, since it is only a contract for the Hire of Property.

I missed that, I meant a lease agreement giving access access to land and property registered at the back of the chanote

Edited September 7, 2010 by MikeyIdea

[sune]

Hi again,

and thanks for taking your time. I learned quite a bit from this thread alone. One last question:

Is there a minimum size of land that a chanote can back? For example: can I have a chanote covering 1 x 1 m?

Thanks again

/Sune

[katabeachbum]

Hi again,

and thanks for taking your time. I learned quite a bit from this thread alone. One last question:

Is there a minimum size of land that a chanote can back? For example: can I have a chanote covering 1 x 1 m?

Thanks again

/Sune

The smallest I have seen is 2 talang wah, thats 8 sqm, used for common water and electric supply

up to your land office and you how to divide land