Gay Men -- Are You Viscerally Disgusted At The Female Form?

[Jingthing]

OK, I was reading a review about a movie about the famous gay writer Lytton Strachey's long term relationship with a woman, painter Dora Carrington. The review describes the relationship curious because Strachey was "viscerally disgusted at the female form." Yeah, I agree.

Anyway, while I would hope most gay men identify that way for positive reasons, attraction to men, that interesting language "viscerally disgusted at the female form" inspired me to do this poll.

I answered "To a certain limited extent yes" although I almost went for the full disgusting Monty. (Sorry, it's not so nice.)

Keep in mind, feeling visceral disgust is something we don't have any control over. It becomes a problem if people take that disgust and act negatively towards people because of it. This is relevant to us because so many heterosexuals are totally disgusted by homosexuality. If they feel that way, that is too bad, but if that's how they feel, well, maybe they can't help it. What they CAN help is treating homosexuals badly.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/style/longterm/movies/videos/carringtonrkempley_c037a0.htm

Edited September 5, 2010 by Jingthing

[JohnLeech]

"This is relevant to us because so many heterosexuals are totally disgusted by homosexuality"

In my experience some are, but the majority are not (certainly not "totally").

I actually fail to see any relevance, unless you have some bizarre idea that heterosexuals are viscerally disgusted at the male form.

With all due respect to Jomtien's finest, I think that most people (gay, straight, or anything else or anything in-between) are more viscerally (instinctively rather than intellectually) disgusted at a form that is fat, wrinkly, old, unwashed and uncared for than one which is slim, athletic, young and nubile. There is, however, no accounting for tastes.

[Jingthing]

John, it is a known fact that many heterosexuals are very disgusted by the very thought of gay sex ACTS. Some of them can't look at a man they think is gay and not think about these sex acts. That's fine unless they then oppress us, and yes, many of them do oppress us all over the world. I can't quantify it, but it is very real.

This disgust about us is sometimes used to hurt us. Some gay writer's disgust at the female form hurts nobody unless he has power over women and is mean to them because of it.

What you wrote is trivial and flip. This disgust thing is a real issue for gay men. Think about the verbal barbs that are used against us, the most virulent ones are about FECES.

In the Sudan, the chief propagandist pushing for the death penalty for gays is obsessed with the subject of gay men "eating poo" which I should say for any non-gay people reading this, very few of us do that intentionally ...

In From Disgust to Humanity, Nussbaum, a prominent professor of law and philosophy at the University of Chicago, explains that much of the political rhetoric around denying equal rights to gay Americans is rooted in the language of disgust. Their activities are depicted as "vile and revolting," threatening to "contaminate and defile" the rest of us. Looked at starkly, she argues, much of the anti-gay argument is bound up in feces and saliva, germs, contagion and blood.

http://www.slate.com/id/2246892/

Edited September 6, 2010 by Jingthing

[endure]

The 'female form' isn't a sex act.

[Jingthing]

The 'female form' isn't a sex act.

Granted.

But a gender's form, a gender's genitalia, and human sex acts are related.

Perhaps you think it is a stretch, but what I am bringing up here is DISGUST over things sexual in general, and the female form is a manifestation of sexuality.

My assertion is people have no conscious control over what they are and aren't disgusted by.

For a non-sexual example, there is durian, I love it and value it, others wretch when they smell it.

What we DO have control of is how we choose to REACT to this natural disgust.

In the durian example, a person calling the police if they smelled durian in a building would be overreacting, especially if it didn't actually invade their personal space. That's disgust turned into messing with others. Mr. Strachey is an interesting example. He was disgusted by the female form but clearly being an evolved HUMAN BEING, he was able to have his higher self choose to overcome that to have a love relationship with a woman, because clearly that particular woman was very important to him. In the case of gay oppression, when homophobic brutes are disgusted by gays, well, perhaps they also can't help it, but they CAN help being brutal towards gays.

About the poll. I am not suggesting that most gays are disgusted by the female form. I think most gays are gay because they love other males. However, I am sure that like Strachey, some gays are indeed disgusted by the female form, and frankly a much bigger percentage are disgusted by female genitalia (same kind of thing as the fact that many lesbians are disgusted by male genitalia). Perhaps I have should have added that part to the poll as it may have illustrated my point better.

Another point. I noticed the negative reaction to the topic of this poll. I wonder why exactly. Is this because some gays see this topic as a kind of airing of our dirty laundry to the world? Stick with Lady Gaga threads, you think? Do you think anyone including our friends actually believes we are as a class a bunch of saints without human flaws?

Edited September 7, 2010 by Jingthing

[JohnLeech]

The 'female form' isn't a sex act.

Exactly. I just can't see the connection between being disgusted at "the female form" and being disgusted at a sex act.

I'm not disgusted when I look at a donkey, but if I saw someone having sex with one I think I'd be pretty disgusted regardless of what sex the donkey was (particularly if the other participant was one of Jomtien's finest).

[Jingthing]

I fully explained the connection. Next ...

[JohnLeech]

John, it is a known fact that many heterosexuals are very disgusted by the very thought of gay sex ACTS. Some of them can't look at a man they think is gay and not think about these sex acts. That's fine unless they then oppress us, and yes, many of them do oppress us all over the world..........

What you wrote is trivial and flip........

JT, sometimes when I look at a man I think is gay I think about "gay sex ACTS"; sometimes its pleasant, sometimes I'm "viscerally disgusted"(the spectre of Jomtien's finest rises yet again!) even as a gay man.

....and JT, I did say "in my experience". While it's got no connection with disgust at the female form, I simply haven't come across that many people who have been so disgusted at homosexuality that they have seen fit to voice that opinion within earshot, let alone go further. Simply "my experience", and before retiring here I worked on every continent in the world (except mainland Antartica). The only time I have been shot at for being thought of as gay was, inevitably, in the States when cycling through the Deep South/Bible Belt; as we were stopped at the side of the road, dressed in relatively normal cyling gear (spandex/lycra/lurex, etc, which I would imagine is what may have looked "gay") a couple of passing locals in a pick-up truck stuck a shotgun out of the window in our general direction, shouted "F'kin homos!" and fired (and missed). That's my only personal experience of any unpleasantness - not "flip", just my own experience.

I am not having a go at Americans, as I met many and have worked with many, and I found them to be the most welcoming in the world (on a par with the Arabs I also worked with), but I also found them to be the most bigoted (also on a par with the Arabs!), which is probably why your experience differs from mine.

In the durian example, a person calling the police if they smelled durian in a building would be overreacting, especially if it didn't actually invade their personal space.

Sorry, this is a little trivial and flip, but it isn't that simple and what you see as "messing with others" by your standards is perfectly fair in other cultures. In Singapore, for example, the police would be called in a lot of buildings, in the train, etc, and the durian carrier arrested and charged.

[Jingthing]

This is getting too weird for me even, bigoted Arabs and Americans, Singaporean durian laws. My points have been made, not interested in bickering and nit picking.

Edited September 7, 2010 by Jingthing

[Gaccha]

Now this is seriously interesting. I am fascinated by the formation of moral values and their relationship to gut instinct responses.

Jonathan Haidt, the famed moral psychologist, has written extensively on this.

The claim to be making a moral valuation turns out to be a false post hoc positioning to justify a visceral response.

Liberals base their moral values on two pillars, conservatives rest their moral position on five pillars, one of these pillars is 'cleanliness'. You can see this all the time, not only in this arena of homophobia. If you look at the comments section of articles on prosititution you will soon find a comment like "yuck! having to sleep with a fat, sweaty old man" made by a young girl. She is imagining herself having to do the act, and is imagining the potential germ spread to her. An old person is more likely to be diseased etc. ( I appreciate there is also an issue that she would be concerned [subconsciously] of possible pregnancy by a poor quality sperm etc. )

i conceptualise this particular issue of repulsion to gay sex like this: humans are strongly bio-programmed to avoid bodily contact, as this prevents germs spreading. Indeed, sex is such a rare opportunity for germs to cross the air barrier that there are whole legions of bacteria and viruses that apply only to the act of sex. This general repulsion can only be overriden by feelings of passion or lust. So, yes, a girl could well feel repulsed by gay sex, she is also likely to make the same comment about having sex with an old man. But if she is a liberal, this feeling of disgust will not manifest itself.

THe moral issue comes into play, because people are aware that "yuck" is not an adequate explanation for their decision on an issue. So they after-the-event justify their position. The normal words are "unnatural", "abnormal" and so on. These terms, of course, have no foundation. The word "natural" is aprticularly interesting as it has three different meanings, which are conflated by the user to strenghten their otherwise feather-weight position.

You can probably guess that I always override any feelings of disgust on any issue no matter how seemingly shocking, and that includes discussing necrophilia or anything else that might seem extreme to almost everyone.

:jap:

[SweatiePie]

It just isn't normal or healthy for anyone, male or female, gay or straight, to be instinctively sickened by the female form. It isn't "gay".

Lots of gay people not only appreciate the female form but, as hair stylists and fashion designers, make a living out of working with it. Most of us gays empathise with women and some even try to copy the "female form", to varying degrees and with varying success.

But JingThing, you're not only sickened by the female form but by anything female or even fem. Gays aren't like that.

The only people like that are guys who've been abused as a child by a woman or teased and taunted by girls. Some get over it, but the rest can never relate to women. Some become flashers, a few become serial killers or rapists, and some grow up thinking they're gay. All because they were caught playing show 'n tell with Mary-Lou behind the barn or Mary-Lou laughed at them.

A couple of other guys here asked recently if you're gay, as what you say just isn't "gay" to most people. Now you "have had fantasies about being dominated by a lesbian with a strap on and might even try that in a "normal" setting". Come on - that isn't gay and, probably, neither are you, honey.

Edited September 10, 2010 by SweatiePie

[Jingthing]

I'm not gay? I love this forum. Full of surprises ...

[Ijustwannateach]

I and many other gay men have had romantic relationships with women at one point or another during our lives- especially when young and unsure about our feelings and our role in society. I'm not disgusted by their bodies and I don't understand people who are, of whatever gender and orientation. They are not all THAT different from men- humans are not very highly sexually differentiated- and I'm sure that much of the homophobia taboo in some cultures comes from much ado about very little difference (almost as silly, for example, as dark versus light skin).

I find that older gay men who grew up in a much less tolerant world are more likely to express this kind of phobia, though it is still not very common in my encounters with gay men of any age. I assume it has to do with some very negative social experiences and even more repression than people my age had to put up with. I don't give the expression of such phobias much attention unless the person expressing them becomes unwilling to clam up when ignored.

[geriatrickid]

Once again, one size doesn't fit all. If one listens to the interviews of some of the most successful and prominent of fashion designers, it is a celebration of the female body and shape. Putting aside that designers like Marc Jacobs , Dom Dolce, Stef Gabbano, Valentino &Versace were of a certain sexual pursuasion, all of them gushed about women in ways that standard heterosexual males couldn't and wouldn't. Versace's ode to the female breast is sort of pornographic. Women loved these guys because they understood the female body and they knew how to please the girls. Marc Jacobs is one of my favourite designers going back to the days when he made Perry Ellis a hot label, and he said it best; "I love women". One cannot get anymore gay than Jacobs.

Now, me on the other hand, I am disgusted at certain female features I have been developing recently. In particular, my man breasts. My friend asked me if I wanted to borrow his girlfriend's bra. So, I hope you will understand if I say, that I am so not into my additional female feature of a pregnant like belly.

[Jingthing]

Gay men in these kinds of professions alluded to. What percentage of gay men are actually in them? I reckon not that many of the total of all gay men. On the other hand, within the males in professions like ladies dress designer, likely a higher than average percentage of gay men. Overall, what I am saying, is because of that situation, I feel an overall FALSE stereotype has been rendered on the public, including many gay men!

[tonititan]

I should first say that I am not gay, or am I a man. I am a heterosexual woman. And no, I'm not offended in the least bit about this poll.....I get where you're coming from, and it would be like asking me if I am disgusted by women's bodies, or by the thought of 2 women having sex (no on both accounts).

I just thought it was an interesting question, because in my experiences with gay men (American and European), they seemed to love the female form. The gay guys I've known in my life were constantly complimenting my figure (which is far from perfect) and wanting to cuddle with me and touch my breasts & hips. A few friends seriously loved boobs, even though they were only sexually interested in other men. It seemed like rather than being disgusted with my female body, they liked and appreciated it. Ok, granted, they were never up close and personal with my "goodies"......

I think another poster was on the right track, when he said that most humans appreciate a beautiful body, no matter if it's a man or woman. Most women I know have no problem recognizing a hot female when we see one. Some guys straight guys (at least the ones who don't have insecurity/homophobia issues) will even comment on another man's attractiveness. I have been more "viscerally disgusted" by some gross looking men than I ever have been disgusted by another woman!

[Jingthing]

Yeah, as I have stated before on this very thread, I think most gay men are NOT disgusted by the female form. I was inspired by the story of Lytton Strachey to start this topic because I found that quite amazing, a gay man who WAS disgusted by the female form but was still involved in a love relationship with a woman. Of course, some may say, artists often defy expectations. For those gay men who ARE disgusted in this way, I totally reject the idea that this has anything to do with age or generation or is any kind of indication of mental illness. It is a feeling like anything, totally valid. I also strongly feel that the percentage of gay men who ARE disgusted by female GENITALS (not the same thing as the female form) is actually rather significant. However, I would have to do another poll to show that here, and that subject is a little too edgy even for me to start, so it will have to remain a THEORY. On a similar line of reasoning, I also think that a rather significant number of straight men are indeed disgusted by the idea of two men having anal sex. I don't think we can condemn them for this feeling of disgust unless it inspires them to be hateful to gays.

Edited September 12, 2010 by Jingthing

[tonititan]

I also strongly feel that the percentage of gay men who ARE disgusted by female GENITALS (not the same thing as the female form) is actually rather significant. However, I would have to do another poll to show that here, and that subject is a little too edgy even for me to start, so it will have to remain a THEORY.

Sorry, I don't mean to hijack your thread by making it about women. But, I think that it would be fascinating to see results of a poll asking men & women, gay & straight, about disgust regarding either gender's genitals. There are a lot of straight women out there who find mens' genitals disgusting. They may enjoy having sex, but don't want to have to actually look at it up close. I mean really, man parts can be pretty "icky" at times. Lol. I wonder if there are men, both gay and straight, who find female genitalia repulsive? I can understand why you don't want to start that poll, though!

On a similar line of reasoning, I also think that a rather significant number of straight men are indeed disgusted by the idea of two men having anal sex. I don't think we can condemn them for this feeling of disgust unless it inspires them to be hateful to gays.

That is one thing that I have never understood! Why are so many straight men completely disgusted by the thought of two men having anal sex, and yet most of them want to do it with women? It's the ultimate fantasy for a lot of straight men. Strange. And someone mentioned the "poo" slurs that some people use towards gay men....but no one says that about straight men having anal sex with women. I don't get it.

[Scott]

I certainly am not disgusted by the female body, but I have a co-worker who is. He gets along well with the female staff, socializes with them and is best friends with them, but for whatever reason, a picture of scantily dressed or naked female really doesn't set well with him. Personally I don't understand it, but different strokes for different folks, I guess.

[sbk]

I realize JT is asking about gay men and I have to say the strong reaction surprises me. But I am a woman and women view other women and men for that matter, in a far different way than men, I suspect.

No, I dont' find genitalia disgusting, and even tho i am a hetero woman I can totally appreciate a really good looking woman. I can't even begin to grasp the levels of suppression (Catholic guilt?) that must go with people who are so uncomfortable with sexuality that they find 1. genitalia disgusting and 2. someone disgusting simply because they are of a gender they are not planning on having sex with.

[Jingthing]

Actually even though I consider this an interesting and legitimate topic for discussion, I am actually surprised the different reactions aren't MORE strong.

[JohnLeech]

I can't even begin to grasp the levels of suppression (Catholic guilt?) that must go with people who are so uncomfortable with sexuality that they find 1. genitalia disgusting and 2. someone disgusting simply because they are of a gender they are not planning on having sex with.

And as far as that is concerned, we are in total agreement (although I don't think that suppression and Catholicism necessarily go hand in hand).

As SweatiePie said, it simply isn't a "gay" thing.

[Jingthing]

Haggis disgusts me.

Nothing to do with suppression or guilt. It is what it is.

I'll go even further. I am gay but I certainly don't fancy ALL male genitals. They vary greatly. Some are lovely. Some, sorry, are to me disgusting, but happily for their owners, tastes vary.

I find this entire guilt/suppression line of analysis a total crock. A gay man may NATURALLY feel disgusted by female genitals. What is he suppressing? What is he feeling guilty about? Being attracted to women, which society promotes and pressures all men to do? It doesn't add up.

Edited September 12, 2010 by Jingthing

[endure]

Haggis disgusts me.

Nothing to do with suppression or guilt. It is what it is.

I'll go even further. I am gay but I certainly don't fancy ALL male genitals. They vary greatly. Some are lovely. Some, sorry, are to me disgusting, but happily for their owners, tastes vary.

[sbk]

Haggis disgusts me.

Nothing to do with suppression or guilt. It is what it is.

I'll go even further. I am gay but I certainly don't fancy ALL male genitals. They vary greatly. Some are lovely. Some, sorry, are to me disgusting, but happily for their owners, tastes vary.

I find this entire guilt/suppression line of analysis a total crock. A gay man may NATURALLY feel disgusted by female genitals. What is he suppressing? What is he feeling guilty about? Being attracted to women, which society promotes and pressures all men to do? It doesn't add up.

No, you started with disgusted by the female form. which is not the same thing.

[Jingthing]

It's not where you start, it's where you ...

Edited September 13, 2010 by Jingthing

[SweatiePie]

(edited - see above)

Nothing to do with suppression or guilt. It is what it is.

I find this entire guilt/suppression line of analysis a total crock. A gay man may NATURALLY feel disgusted by female genitals. What is he suppressing? What is he feeling guilty about? Being attracted to women, which society promotes and pressures all men to do? It doesn't add up.

Adds up to most genuinely gay men, honey, as well as most people (gay/straight/male/female). Those it doesn't add up to are generally either straight but can't get it up with the opposite sex because of that incident with Mary-Lou so they convince themselves they are gay, or they're straight but suffer from SDS (Small Dick Syndrome) and can't satisfy the opposite sex so they stick their head in the sand (or in a pillow) and do their best to satisfy a gay partner instead.

What's worse for us ladyboys is that these guys, who aren't "naturally" gay, are disgusted by us ladyboys too as they're jealous that we've got what they want but they don't think we want or use it. Believe me, honey, I've got it and I use it. At every opportunity.

All their problems could easily be solved by therapy or surgery, but few of these "gay" guys want to admit it.

None of this may apply to you of course, honey, but I can't help wondering if you are as disgusted by female genitals on other animals, or is it only people? And if you're so "gay", then how have you become so familiar with female human genitalia that you've got an informed opinion?

[Jingthing]

Everyone's an amateur psychiatrist, it's downright comical.

On this disgust thing, this ain't about me as I am just one person, it's about the general pubic ...

Next ...

Edited September 13, 2010 by Jingthing

[Patsycat]

Haggis is delicious. I'm going to Scotland for Xmas!!

I agree with everything. But have one question - Gay men say they hate female parts and bodies.

When did they ever see female parts up close and personal? Or perhaps they pressed the wrong button on the porn sites?

[SweatiePie]

Everyone's an amateur psychiatrist, it's downright comical.

On this disgust thing, this ain't about me as I am just one person, it's about the general pubic ...

Next ...

It's not the "general public" who find the female form (not heterosexual sex acts or genitalia) disgusting, its YOU.

You don't need to be a psychiatrist to spot someone with a problem, honey.