Fatal Pattaya Baht-Bus Accident Caused By Drunk Canadian

[newermonkey]

This roundabout has always been an accident black spot.

Strange how everyone is blaming the Canadian man here, I dint see in the article that he has been convicted (yet), just because he was drunk (although that is meant to be an offense here of course and he will ultimately pay dearly for it) it does not mean he caused the accident though.

This is as far as I know the only real main road roundabout in Pattaya. The Thai drivers are always totally confused when approaching it, with no one knowing who has any right of way.

The law is: "GIVE WAY TO THE TRAFFIC ON YOUR RIGHT WHEN ENTERING THE ROUNDABOUT" if that rule was applied there would be less accidents and perhaps this nasty one could have been avoided.

I would bet money that the taxi "songtaow" was coming from 2nd road and did not give way, or even slow down, the (speeding?) Canadian would have been on taxi,s right side who was probably already making his (perfectly legal) turn to the right to go to Naklua or go streight on down to beach road.

(Of course it would be interesting to know more facts rather than the PDN reporters assumptions)

The city council should install big signs at the approaches to all roundabouts, saying in Thai and English: "GIVE WAY TO TRAFFIC ON YOUR RIGHT"

The Pattaya One News quote says he was coming round the roundabout the wrong way "anti clockwise" no amount of "Give Way" will prevent that. You can not turn right to go to beach road you have to go round the roundabout clockwise. Maybe there are others who require a brush up on their driving skills re driving on the left side of the road and roundabouts.

Yes you are right, it seems nothing would have stopped this intoxicated moron, but I have seen many Thais going the "wrong way" around this roundabout and I once spotted a Police man on a motor cycle making the "short cut" at the time I thought of making a citizens arrest but thought better of it!!!

But this roundabout still DOES NEED signage to try and EDUCATE drivers. (and the police)

[newermonkey]

i would regard him as lebanese rather than canadian

This document says otherwise and trumps any other document as well as your regard.

Could be, he is a Lebanese Terrorist with a fake Canadian passport?

[Buchholz]

i would regard him as lebanese rather than canadian

This document says otherwise and trumps any other document as well as your regard.

Could be, he is a Lebanese Terrorist with a fake Canadian passport?

No, he's just a Canadian.

[newermonkey]

"How can anyone drive through a round about at a high rate of speed". I assume you are not familiar with this paticular round about. The Canadian was coming down Naklua road heading toward the round about. When he got to the round about he made a immediate right turn which would take him to the begining of Beach Road and not actually go through the round about. At that point he hit the bhat bus. So it appears he never really entered the round about but tried to take an illegal shortcut around it. It's a big intersection so he could have been going pretty fast at that point.

If you read the original report of this accident you'll find that they said that he avoided the roundabout. That's a pretty clear way to describe what he did.

Yes seems that's what he did and Ive seen police motorcyclists doing exactly that, what hope has this country got in protecting its innocent population if the the police show such contempt towards the law,

[JetsetBkk]

<snip>

denying long term visas to the idle would be among the policy prescriptions. Marrying a thai should never be reason enough to be granted a long term visa.

<snip>

Wait until you reach retirement age. You might change your tune.

in fact, mine is a retirement visa. i wouldnt have made the comment i did unless it affected me too.

so its much more likely that you will change your tune, one fine day...

It is nearly always a fine day in Phuket, apart from in the rainy season.

So do you consider retirement visas "long term visas for the 'idle'"?

I think I do because I am definitely idle.

Edit:

Having re-read your post, I realise that you are talking about long term visas based on marriage.

So do you think they should be abolished?

Edited September 13, 2010 by JetsetBkk

[JetsetBkk]

Canadian, born in Lebanon, with a name like "Francois Joseph Giannini".

Odd, to say the least.

No, it is NOT ODD. Not odd in the least to people from multicultural societies. Not defending this drunk at all, but leave his ethnicity/nationality OUT of this, please.

Er, yes it is. Thank God I didn't say anything about his sexuality.

<snip>

As for the last post which was a thinly veiled swipe at one of your fellow forum members sexual preferences, that makes you an even nastier piece of work.

<snip>

And when exactly did you have your sense of humour removed?

For your information I like JT a lot (although I am not gay ) and we often have little digs at each other.

It's people like you who can't see the humour in an innocent post that make this forum such a joy.

[siamiam]

Yes, despite your inability to use the forum properly to quote other posts, I WAS referencing other people's posts and not only yours. I am sorry you missed that but try to keep up.

You have never seen the scene of the crime so your repeated questioning about the baht buses headlight use is as redundant as OTHER PEOPLE'S posts regarding the non-existent barrier placement. One other Pattaya resident has posted here that the roundabout is very well illuminated. Tell 'em again tropo!

As for your contention that you need to assess vehicle weights before making a judgement call... &lt;deleted&gt;?! These are 2 pickups, the baht bus will have been heavier due to the cab on the back and the people inside. Therefore it has the larger mass. So anything of smaller mass (picture the black pickup) that collides with it (picture the bah bus) but still manages to make the larger mass (the baht bus) STOP AND CHANGE DIRECTION COMPLETELY.... oh bugger, there I go shouting aqain. Have you ever played snooker or pool? Conkers even?

At least we agree on some points and I apologise if it appeared that I lumped you in with the 'old colonial' attitude towards our hosts. I got lit up at your pedantic 'what iff-ing' and then got on a roll with some other posts that were based on ignorance and arrogance. You are neither... except for your grasp of the physics of objects in motion. I am not of the hang 'em high brigade but when it looks, walks and quacks like a duck... why bother with all the forensics when its sticks out like a dogs balls that one vehicle rammed head-on at high-speed into the side of the other whilst making an illegal driving maneuver?

I have no problem "keeping up", or using the Reply button on this forum. I made my last post from a public computer at an internet shop in Kolkata and I had 15 minutes to send the post before the shop closed at 10pm. Thaivisa would not allow me to make my post and gave me the error message that I had exceeded the maximum allowable number of quotes. So, rather than try to sort out the quotes of your message that I was replying to in the limited amount of time I had, I just deleted them.

The point I was trying to make regarding the physics of the accident, is that the results of this impact could have been the same weather the baht bus was going faster OR slower than the truck that hit it. I suspect that you and I are in agreement that whatever the speed of the baht bus, or the weights of the vehicles involved, or the trajectory of these vehilcles in the aftermath of impact, all of this would not be of primary concern in assessing blame for the collision. This is why I did not originally write about these factors. The speed of the truck that hit the bus does factor in blame assessment.

Thank you for acknowledging that I do not have an 'old colonial' attitude toward Thai people. If one were to look at my past posts on this forum, they would not find one instance of me ever considering the Thai people as anything other than my equal, exceptions being individuals that had been charged with murder. I live in Thailand not because of economic reasons, but because I like living in Thai society. I think highly of Thai people and count a few of them among my true friends.

I am a pedantic person, there is no denying this, and at times it even aggravates family members. When I first read about this terrible accident that we are discussing, I thought that Mr. Giannini's situation looked very bad, and no facts have come to light since that make me think otherwise. I would not want anything of importance to go unoticed, weather it be something that bettered Mr. Gianinni's situation, or worsened it. I have seen many things during my life that turned out to be different, slightly or otherwise, than what they were thought sure to be. I also watched the video of the aftermath of this accident, showing those young people laying on the street, their life slipping away. I want to see justice done as much as anyone.

[barrie2819]

So everyone in Pattaya is an animal that crawled out a sewer? Yes Pattaya is Asia's 24/7/365 holidaying / party destination SO WHAT? Means bars open all day and night and a lot of the patrons drink all through the night or get up early and get drunk. They are on holiday and I did not realise there was a an acceptable time of day to fall off a bar stool?

You have missed the point : 2 people have been left dead here by a "drunk and drugged" up driver.

Thailand has fines for traffic deaths somewhere between 200,000 and 300,000 Baht.... So if he has money then that is sorted.For the injured he will have to pay for their ongoing hospital fees - They say it is cheaper to put the car in reverse rather than pay the hospital fees. Most likely he will be given bail then skip the country , with or without his passport.

RIP to those dead and a speedy recovery to the injured.

For those that see this as an opportunity to have a pop at Pattaya people, bogoff back to your Utopian society where there is no crime, everyone is perfect , nobody gets drunk , everyone sits upright on their bar stools , never fall off, all go to bed by 9pm with a cup cocoa.

I guess that you are the type that disliked everybody there so much they had to revisit again and again , probably to see an angelic GF?

Drunk driver causing an accident, how unexpected.

I have been all over the world and a lots of rowdy places. Pattaya was the only place I ever been and saw at 11 AM patrons falling off barstools on a regular basis.

This has to be the Sewer in the world not how it looks like but the people that hang out there.

[BlackJack]

theres a round about at the back of the TUcom computer shop in Pattaya and all Thais I have seen driving think that this is the sign to say if you are going left go left if you are going straight ahead go to the right of the round about

TIT

[newermonkey]

So everyone in Pattaya is an animal that crawled out a sewer? Yes Pattaya is Asia's 24/7/365 holidaying / party destination SO WHAT? Means bars open all day and night and a lot of the patrons drink all through the night or get up early and get drunk. They are on holiday and I did not realise there was a an acceptable time of day to fall off a bar stool?

You have missed the point : 2 people have been left dead here by a "drunk and drugged" up driver.

Thailand has fines for traffic deaths somewhere between 200,000 and 300,000 Baht.... So if he has money then that is sorted.For the injured he will have to pay for their ongoing hospital fees - They say it is cheaper to put the car in reverse rather than pay the hospital fees. Most likely he will be given bail then skip the country , with or without his passport.

RIP to those dead and a speedy recovery to the injured.

For those that see this as an opportunity to have a pop at Pattaya people, bogoff back to your Utopian society where there is no crime, everyone is perfect , nobody gets drunk , everyone sits upright on their bar stools , never fall off, all go to bed by 9pm with a cup cocoa.

I guess that you are the type that disliked everybody there so much they had to revisit again and again , probably to see an angelic GF?

Drunk driver causing an accident, how unexpected.

I have been all over the world and a lots of rowdy places. Pattaya was the only place I ever been and saw at 11 AM patrons falling off barstools on a regular basis.

This has to be the Sewer in the world not how it looks like but the people that hang out there.

Its a sort of obstacle in the road and when coming from TukCom going right or to Soi 19 its positioned over to the the left so everyone keeps to the right and just ignores it.

[barrie2819]

Agreed there are much worse places than Pattaya for driving / walking around. I've had one accident in three years when I hit sand on a corner . Yes I was drunk driving my bike and have done so on many occasions and I always know it is not a clever idea. I drive slowly so that when I fall off it wont hurt too much. This accident looks like it was an high impact collision. A lot of people drink and drive in Thailand , they are just introducing breath testing in Bangkok. There are lots of accidents and inevitibley the two get combined. People seem to forget what was acceptable only 30 / 40 years ago and that societies move at different paces. Normally the Thai drivers involved in any accident will just bolt the scene and may hand themselves in sober at a later date.

[tropo]

Agreed there are much worse places than Pattaya for driving / walking around. I've had one accident in three years when I hit sand on a corner . Yes I was drunk driving my bike and have done so on many occasions and I always know it is not a clever idea. I drive slowly so that when I fall off it wont hurt too much. This accident looks like it was an high impact collision. A lot of people drink and drive in Thailand , they are just introducing breath testing in Bangkok. There are lots of accidents and inevitibley the two get combined. People seem to forget what was acceptable only 30 / 40 years ago and that societies move at different paces. Normally the Thai drivers involved in any accident will just bolt the scene and may hand themselves in sober at a later date.

Luckily you're only riding a bike, so more than likely you'll only kill youself....in which case that would be once less idiot riding around drunk in Pattaya.

[cup-O-coffee]

I make apologies for sounding harsh, but this angers me. This angers me because this will happen again and again, and only the feeble minded will wring their hands and moan about the humanity of it, as they stand in front of their beer bar, see the result of their irresponsibility, and, after awhile return to their seat and order another, or serve another round. After all, who else is up at this time in the pre-dawn hours?

4am and all those people going home from working all night; selling liquor and whatever else to foreigners, watching those impaired foreigners stumble to their vehicles and swerve off into the pre-dawn light. I wonder if any of them ever gave second thought that the chickens would come home to roost, and that one day one of their patrons would hit them on their way home from work. I wonder how many customers these girls served (or kept the bar open until the customers left) never made it home because they smacked into the back of a parked Hino or worse; killed another human being.

I understand that people have to survive, and beggars can't be choosers, but there's a saying that goes, "Nothing good happens after midnight". If the hazards of working this shift and selling a volatile product are not considered, then sympathy will drop a notch in my book. I can have pity for a fool, but not sympathy; and that goes not only for the drunkard, but the snakes who sell the product knowing full well their customer is smashed, and yet let the drunken fool turn a vehicle into a deadly weapon as soon as the ignition turns over, and speedily swerve off into the pre-dawn gloom as an ambassador of death. Ever heard of a guilty conscience? Ya gotta have a conscience first; especially at 4am in the morning.

This is a tragedy, but only a maudlin fool would be blind enough to not acknowledge that the man would not have been drunk had there not been places to get him that way. Yes, he is one part of the equation that is at fault, but there is more here that needs a finger pointed to it.

I wonder how the girls feel about this. I mean the girls that were at the last place this drunken fool visited. I am sure they got him plowed with beverages, and perhaps helped call his junkie to deliver the additional goods that might be found in his system (it happens); and then waved bye-bye and blew him kisses as he swerved and sped off into the night. Would anyone mind telling me if someone took the time to visit this bar and tell the girls that the man whom they served until he was deadly drunk, left their place and committed negligent homicide against two of their countrymen and put others on sticks for awhile?

But, the Pattaya Daily Snooze jumps the gun and vomits out another trash media story, with a few facts twisted around to get a good raise out of people; but generally the same M.O.: Make much ado about a foreigner, but turn a blind eye to the peddlers that provide the product or service; and do this before all of the facts have been gathered, and a prosecuting attorney has the time to go over the details.

Respectfully, will the deceased driver also be given a blood test for foreign substances? This is standard procedure in developed countries. I rate motorbikes drivers, minivan drivers, and song taews as THE worst offenders of safety on the road, in the daytime, in that order.

Would any sober person be able to drive around town at 4 in the morning, and not have there bum puckered at all the drunken idiots driving about insanely? Have any of you ever tried it? Are any of you posters even aware of this phenomenon? Seriously, go out at this time in the morning and observe the idiotic behavior on the roads, as both foreigners and Thais recklessly speed home from their all-nighter, laughing and shouting all the way.

There are a lot of possibilities that would be contributing factors, yet a lot missing here that should be considered, yet emotions will be played like a Stradivarius, and the culture will prevail against the truth, common sense, and reason.

The only reason I can see for bringing in the nationality of the drunken fool, would be a documentary angle on how Thais propagate drunkenness towards foreigners and then turn them loose into the night when the well runs dry, the Bahts run low, or the foreigner says to his mates, "Eh, I better go home to my missus before I pass out".

Any other reason to mention that this person is a male or female, or a foreigner or native is just plain nonsense, and non-productive towards resolving a far greater problem at hand; a problem caused by the Thais, who sell the alcohol, and make the rules that we get to live by.

Yes, I am sad about it, and I pity these people, but choosing a lifestyle like this is going to increase the odds against ones life expectancy. Even the people in the song taew, at 4am in the morning, could be considered collateral damage by their own countrymen, because I guarantee you the bars will be filled this very morning; again; with replacement candidates for the fools lottery.

Stopping this behavior will never work. They tried that in the west with the great prohibition.

All my condolences where applicable; and extreme pity for that fool in the truck.

[metisdead]

Agreed there are much worse places than Pattaya for driving / walking around. I've had one accident in three years when I hit sand on a corner . Yes I was drunk driving my bike and have done so on many occasions and I always know it is not a clever idea. I drive slowly so that when I fall off it wont hurt too much. This accident looks like it was an high impact collision. A lot of people drink and drive in Thailand , they are just introducing breath testing in Bangkok. There are lots of accidents and inevitibley the two get combined. People seem to forget what was acceptable only 30 / 40 years ago and that societies move at different paces. Normally the Thai drivers involved in any accident will just bolt the scene and may hand themselves in sober at a later date.

Luckily you're only riding a bike, so more than likely you'll only kill youself....in which case that would be once less idiot riding around drunk in Pattaya.

+1

[metisdead]

Double post.

Edited September 13, 2010 by metisdead

[joboss]

This roundabout has always been an accident black spot.

Strange how everyone is blaming the Canadian man here, I dint see in the article that he has been convicted (yet), just because he was drunk (although that is meant to be an offense here of course and he will ultimately pay dearly for it) it does not mean he caused the accident though.

This is as far as I know the only real main road roundabout in Pattaya. The Thai drivers are always totally confused when approaching it, with no one knowing who has any right of way.

The law is: "GIVE WAY TO THE TRAFFIC ON YOUR RIGHT WHEN ENTERING THE ROUNDABOUT" if that rule was applied there would be less accidents and perhaps this nasty one could have been avoided.

I would bet money that the taxi "songtaow" was coming from 2nd road and did not give way, or even slow down, the (speeding?) Canadian would have been on taxi,s right side who was probably already making his (perfectly legal) turn to the right to go to Naklua or go streight on down to beach road.

(Of course it would be interesting to know more facts rather than the PDN reporters assumptions)

The city council should install big signs at the approaches to all roundabouts, saying in Thai and English: "GIVE WAY TO TRAFFIC ON YOUR RIGHT"

Oh dear??? U really do have it cockeyed. Please read the news article in question and some of the posts before making such ill informed assumptions.

[siamiam]

<snip> You say that there is sufficient lighting to preclude the possibility of a lack of headlights being a contributing factor to this accident. I would want to see the lighting at 4am there for myself, or get a concensus on the matter from other posters that live in the area, before I agree with your assessment of there being no chance that lack of headlights could play a part in the accident. What ever the determination of this point turns out to be, I will likely maintain that it was a justified subject to broach, not bizarre at all, as I did not state it as a fact, but stated it as a possibility. <snip>

The consensus appears to be that there is in fact lighting at the roundabout. When I look at the crash scene still photos and more particularly the crash scene video, I cannot rule out there being a chance that a lack of headlights, on either vehicle, could be a contributing factor to this accident. Let me make clear, I am not saying I believe one way or another that headlights of either vehicle were on or off.

When I watch the video of the crash scene, (see the URL link for the full story on post #1 of this thread), the lighting there does not look bright enough, (to me), as to make headlights unnecessary, and this is a scene that may have had additional lighting at the time of the videos recording, due to rescue vehicles being present. When I look at the video shots that show rescue / and or other vehicles at the scene with their headlights on, the picture I get is one that tells me headlights would be a good thing to have on while traveling through, or approaching the roundabout, even though there is lighting there, so that other drivers would be sure to see me.

Edited September 14, 2010 by siamiam

[siamiam]

<snip> The pickup is full-frontal damaged and stopped mid track whereas the baht bus totally side-impact (for those who cannot grasp the 'T-boned' analogy) and is hurled sideways and backwards into the kerbside trees. <snip> If that baht bus was speeding then by the same argument, the black pickup must have been going even faster. <snip>

<snip> As for your contention that you need to assess vehicle weights before making a judgement call... &lt;deleted&gt;?! These are 2 pickups, the baht bus will have been heavier due to the cab on the back and the people inside. Therefore it has the larger mass. So anything of smaller mass (picture the black pickup) that collides with it (picture the bah bus) but still manages to make the larger mass (the baht bus) STOP AND CHANGE DIRECTION COMPLETELY.... <snip>

I now think I understand our disconnect on this issue. You have said that the baht bus was T-boned, (side impact), which I agree with, but then you wrote: "anything of smaller mass (picture the black pickup) that collides with it (picture the bah bus) but still manages to make the larger mass (the baht bus) STOP AND CHANGE DIRECTION COMPLETELY"... and this describes the physics / dynamics of a head on collision, (two objects traveling toward each other on the same vector). Your citing of the physics / dynamics involved in this accident is incorrect. You wrote: "If that baht bus was speeding then by the same argument, the black pickup must have been going even faster". The truck did not absorb the speed of the buss in the same manner as it would have done in a head on collision, it impacted the side of the baht bus, and this is a different dynamic. The black truck did not make the baht bus "STOP AND CHANGE DIRECTION COMPLETELY", it impacted the side of the baht bus and redirected it, and this is a different dynamic.

I believe I saw the physics / dynamics of this accident more clearly, which is why I stated that the results would have been the same, weather the baht bus was traveling faster or slower than the truck that hit it, (actually, the post-impact trajectories of the vehicles would be different, but this is incidental). To calculate weather the baht bus was traveling faster or slower than the truck that hit it, you would need to know the weights of the two vehicles and be versed in crash scene investigation mathematics in order to make the calculation. I base these statements in regards to a side impact collision, not a head on collision.

edited for additional information

Edited September 14, 2010 by siamiam

[canuckamuck]

<snip> The pickup is full-frontal damaged and stopped mid track whereas the baht bus totally side-impact (for those who cannot grasp the 'T-boned' analogy) and is hurled sideways and backwards into the kerbside trees. <snip> If that baht bus was speeding then by the same argument, the black pickup must have been going even faster. <snip>

<snip> As for your contention that you need to assess vehicle weights before making a judgement call... &lt;deleted&gt;?! These are 2 pickups, the baht bus will have been heavier due to the cab on the back and the people inside. Therefore it has the larger mass. So anything of smaller mass (picture the black pickup) that collides with it (picture the bah bus) but still manages to make the larger mass (the baht bus) STOP AND CHANGE DIRECTION COMPLETELY.... <snip>

I now think I understand our disconnect on this issue. You have said that the baht bus was T-boned, (side impact), which I agree with, but then you wrote: "anything of smaller mass (picture the black pickup) that collides with it (picture the bah bus) but still manages to make the larger mass (the baht bus) STOP AND CHANGE DIRECTION COMPLETELY"... and this describes the physics / dynamics of a head on collision, (two objects traveling toward each other on the same vector). Your citing of the physics / dynamics involved in this accident is incorrect. You wrote: "If that baht bus was speeding then by the same argument, the black pickup must have been going even faster". The truck did not absorb the speed of the buss in the same manner as it would have done in a head on collision, it impacted the side of the baht bus, and this is a different dynamic. The black truck did not make the baht bus "STOP AND CHANGE DIRECTION COMPLETELY", it impacted the side of the baht bus and redirected it, and this is a different dynamic.

I believe I saw the physics / dynamics of this accident more clearly, which is why I stated that the results would have been the same, weather the baht bus was traveling faster or slower than the truck that hit it, (actually, the post-impact trajectories of the vehicles would be different, but this is incidental). To calculate weather the baht bus was traveling faster or slower than the truck that hit it, you would need to know the weights of the two vehicles and be versed in crash scene investigation mathematics in order to make the calculation. I base these statements in regards to a side impact collision, not a head on collision.

edited for additional information

Look at the damage on the black truck - it is severe. Explain to me how a truck can be damaged to this degree in a t-bone collision, without the black truck moving at a high rate of speed.

How can a baht bus, or any other vehicle, transfer that kind of energy from it's side into another vehicle? If the crash had indeed been caused by the baht bus moving at a high rate of speed the damage to the black truck would show significant damage to the left front and much less crumpling backwards towards the cab. It would look like the front was nearly ripped off towards the right.

Instead what we see is slightly greater damage to the right front. Notice the right headlight is moved left (impossible if the speeder had been the baht bus). But mostly we see that the damage is nearly symmetrical which indicates that the baht bus was nearly stationary in relation to the speed of the black truck.

I think it is possible that the baht bus actually screeched to a halt and received a massive blow which would explain why it seems to have been shot sideways and why the passengers were scattered about the street. If the baht bus would have had been moving quickly the passengers would not have been ejected but rather they would have been slammed into the front of the passenger area.

[newermonkey]

I think eefoo has come to the most logical conclusion in this story, if there is something logical about it. The fact is that the idea of this roundabout, is not a roundabout, and people coming from Naklua are forced to drive in the opposite direction, if they are going to Beach Road. This same type of road design is everywhere in Thailand, and very dangerous, making a U-turn from the fast lane. Sometime you need to go many km in the wrong directions to get where your going, so people start to learn the "shortcuts". Probably at 4am, this shortcut has been done many times, without an accident. But in this case, a tragic accident, and because a farang was involved, it gets even more coverage. I wonder if the road department ever learns anything from the accidents that happen.

You are correct...

At various times the police block the roundabout half way around with a temporary barrier! when one wants to go from Nakua to Beach Road drivers must change from the right hand lane and cut across to the left and head up to towards Sukhumvit Road then after 100 meters swap to the right hand lane to make a U-Turn to come back to the "thing monument" roundabout so one can continue ahead finally to beach road!!!!

(I guess when tanked up and taking the girls back to the bar after an evening of sex and drugs the Canadian/Lebanese (whatever) man did what every one else does "take the police recommended short cut")

What I am trying to figure out is how are the police are making money from this? is it to ENCOURAGE people from making that lethal short cut (as they themselves do) so they can set up camp on the top of beach road to catch them or catch people as they have an accident violently changing direction from turning right to suddenly turning left, or are they making it illegal to make the U-Turn and catching them on the other side of the road?

Whatever is happening here the police are out to make as many problems as they can to maximize on the licit income.

We all know they have hit the jackpot with this one, don't they now feel any remorse towards the deceased girl or family?

When will they stop there little money making tricks and actually do the real job they are paid to do?

[siamiam]

<snip> The pickup is full-frontal damaged and stopped mid track whereas the baht bus totally side-impact (for those who cannot grasp the 'T-boned' analogy) and is hurled sideways and backwards into the kerbside trees. <snip> If that baht bus was speeding then by the same argument, the black pickup must have been going even faster. <snip>

<snip> As for your contention that you need to assess vehicle weights before making a judgement call... &lt;deleted&gt;?! These are 2 pickups, the baht bus will have been heavier due to the cab on the back and the people inside. Therefore it has the larger mass. So anything of smaller mass (picture the black pickup) that collides with it (picture the bah bus) but still manages to make the larger mass (the baht bus) STOP AND CHANGE DIRECTION COMPLETELY.... <snip>

I now think I understand our disconnect on this issue. You have said that the baht bus was T-boned, (side impact), which I agree with, but then you wrote: "anything of smaller mass (picture the black pickup) that collides with it (picture the bah bus) but still manages to make the larger mass (the baht bus) STOP AND CHANGE DIRECTION COMPLETELY"... and this describes the physics / dynamics of a head on collision, (two objects traveling toward each other on the same vector). Your citing of the physics / dynamics involved in this accident is incorrect. You wrote: "If that baht bus was speeding then by the same argument, the black pickup must have been going even faster". The truck did not absorb the speed of the buss in the same manner as it would have done in a head on collision, it impacted the side of the baht bus, and this is a different dynamic. The black truck did not make the baht bus "STOP AND CHANGE DIRECTION COMPLETELY", it impacted the side of the baht bus and redirected it, and this is a different dynamic.

I believe I saw the physics / dynamics of this accident more clearly, which is why I stated that the results would have been the same, weather the baht bus was traveling faster or slower than the truck that hit it, (actually, the post-impact trajectories of the vehicles would be different, but this is incidental). To calculate weather the baht bus was traveling faster or slower than the truck that hit it, you would need to know the weights of the two vehicles and be versed in crash scene investigation mathematics in order to make the calculation. I base these statements in regards to a side impact collision, not a head on collision.

edited for additional information

Look at the damage on the black truck - it is severe. Explain to me how a truck can be damaged to this degree in a t-bone collision, without the black truck moving at a high rate of speed.

How can a baht bus, or any other vehicle, transfer that kind of energy from it's side into another vehicle? If the crash had indeed been caused by the baht bus moving at a high rate of speed the damage to the black truck would show significant damage to the left front and much less crumpling backwards towards the cab. It would look like the front was nearly ripped off towards the right.

Instead what we see is slightly greater damage to the right front. Notice the right headlight is moved left (impossible if the speeder had been the baht bus). But mostly we see that the damage is nearly symmetrical which indicates that the baht bus was nearly stationary in relation to the speed of the black truck.

I think it is possible that the baht bus actually screeched to a halt and received a massive blow which would explain why it seems to have been shot sideways and why the passengers were scattered about the street. If the baht bus would have had been moving quickly the passengers would not have been ejected but rather they would have been slammed into the front of the passenger area.

I don't think anyone has suggested that the black truck could not have been going at a sufficient speed to cause the damage seen in this accident. Weather that is speeding or not, I can't say because I don't know what the speed limit is at the location. But yes, I think everyone has been in agreement that the truck was going fast enough to cause the damage. What I had said earlier is that the damage would look similar regardless as to weather the baht buss was going faster or slower than the black truck. You have questioned weather it would be possible for the baht bus to have been going faster than the truck that hit it and still see this kind of accident. I am not a crash scene investigator and I consider my understanding of the dynamics / physics of what we are discussing to be rudimentary. Only three of the passengers in the baht bus were ejected and I don't know where the rest of them ended up in the vehicle. I see nothing that convinces me that the baht bus could not have been going faster than the truck that hit it, though this has never been an issue with me in trying to assign blame for the collision, (I have assumed the reports to be correct that say the baht bus was traveling legally in the proper direction and the black truck was not). I agree with your observation regarding the damage to the front of the black truck; there is a corner of it that looks to have largely escaped damage. I noticed this also, (when trying to asses the degree of lighting at the scene), and probably should not have been calling this a T-bone collision, but rather something else..partial T-bone, V-bone, or maybe just side impact. Now I have a question or three for you: others have stated that they believe the baht bus to be heavier in weight than the black truck. I don't have enough info to question this, but when I look at the same crash scene video, it looks like the black truck is an extended cab type. Which vehicle do you think is heavier? In a crash like this, would the weight of the human payload be added to the weight of the vehicle to arrive at a total weight, or is 'loose' payload weight of any type factored differently? Lastly, where can we find out the make and models of the two vehicles involved in this accident, and subsequently their respective weights. I am currently on the road and cannot do research like I normally would.

Edited September 15, 2010 by siamiam

[siamiam]

<snip> others have stated that they believe the baht bus to be heavier in weight than the black truck. I don't have enough info to question this, but when I look at the same crash scene video, it looks like the black truck is an extended cab type. Which vehicle do you think is heavier? In a crash like this, would the weight of the human payload be added to the weight of the vehicle to arrive at a total weight, or is 'loose' payload weight of any type factored differently? Lastly, where can we find out the make and models of the two vehicles involved in this accident, and subsequently their respective weights. <snip>

I know that the Nissan Navara is reported to be the vehicle driven by Mr. Giannini, but there are different versions of this truck. One website I came across says that none of the Navara models are single cab; there are different types of extended cab in this series of Nissan truck. There are also other options besides cab size. There is no point in listing a range of weights for the various versions of the Navara, better to know exactly what Mr. Giannini had, but in reading online car reviews for this series of truck, it looks like a vehicle that could be heavier than some of the sawngtao, (baht bus), I have been in.

Edited September 15, 2010 by siamiam

[technologybytes]

So, thousands of people drive drunk every day in Thailand and nobody even raises an eyebrow, unless of course there is a fatal accident/incident.

...AND it was caused by a foreigner.

Anyway, I stopped driving after a few drinks when I fell off my bike and broke my arm, just goes to show how your judgement is impaired after just a few drinks.

So even educated and apparently intelligent people from other countries are driving/riding around drunk. Are you a teenager? You had to fall off your bike to learn that drinking impairs judgement?

This is exactly why we have tough drink driving laws back at home...to protect fools from themselves and keep others safe. No amount of education will be enough to stop idiots from drinking and driving anywhere in this world.

It's true that it's stupid to drive after consuming any alcohol, but who can honestly say that they have never done it???

Far from being a teenager I can remember when in the UK it was socially acceptable to drink and drive. (search the words of the song "In The Summertime" by Mungo Jerry) And that's all I'm saying, it's still socially acceptable to get into your car or on your motorbike after a few beers here in Thailand where it's not socially acceptable in the west. It's also a serious crime in the west but here it's no more serious than not wearing a helmet, unless of course you are involved in an incident.

And, yes, I actually did have to fall off my bike and break a bone to appreciate how much your judgement is impaired by two glasses of red wine with a meal. I'm sure that would not have put me over the legal limit in the west but in the west I would not have taken the chance.. here I did and more fool me.

[newermonkey]

This roundabout has always been an accident black spot.

Strange how everyone is blaming the Canadian man here, I dint see in the article that he has been convicted (yet), just because he was drunk (although that is meant to be an offense here of course and he will ultimately pay dearly for it) it does not mean he caused the accident though.

This is as far as I know the only real main road roundabout in Pattaya. The Thai drivers are always totally confused when approaching it, with no one knowing who has any right of way.

The law is: "GIVE WAY TO THE TRAFFIC ON YOUR RIGHT WHEN ENTERING THE ROUNDABOUT" if that rule was applied there would be less accidents and perhaps this nasty one could have been avoided.

I would bet money that the taxi "songtaow" was coming from 2nd road and did not give way, or even slow down, the (speeding?) Canadian would have been on taxi,s right side who was probably already making his (perfectly legal) turn to the right to go to Naklua or go streight on down to beach road.

(Of course it would be interesting to know more facts rather than the PDN reporters assumptions)

The city council should install big signs at the approaches to all roundabouts, saying in Thai and English: "GIVE WAY TO TRAFFIC ON YOUR RIGHT"

Oh dear??? U really do have it cockeyed. Please read the news article in question and some of the posts before making such ill informed assumptions.

I have read the reports and the conclusion is the Nissan driver went around the wrong way and T-boned the baht bus.

But my statement still holds true because it appears the police block the roundabout off halfway around at night which in the absence of any signage whatsoever makes the roundabout system null and void (makes it into a normal junction) So the Canadian driver did follow the normal unsafe way to navigate this junction.

When he has his day in court this fact should be in his defense, so he could get off over a technicality because of police stupidity. (of course there is still the alcohol, drugs and excessive speed and causing a death "manslaughter")

Edited September 16, 2010 by newermonkey

[siamiam]

Look at the damage on the black truck - it is severe. Explain to me how a truck can be damaged to this degree in a t-bone collision, without the black truck moving at a high rate of speed.

How can a baht bus, or any other vehicle, transfer that kind of energy from it's side into another vehicle? If the crash had indeed been caused by the baht bus moving at a high rate of speed the damage to the black truck would show significant damage to the left front and much less crumpling backwards towards the cab. It would look like the front was nearly ripped off towards the right.

Instead what we see is slightly greater damage to the right front. Notice the right headlight is moved left (impossible if the speeder had been the baht bus). But mostly we see that the damage is nearly symmetrical which indicates that the baht bus was nearly stationary in relation to the speed of the black truck.

I think it is possible that the baht bus actually screeched to a halt and received a massive blow which would explain why it seems to have been shot sideways and why the passengers were scattered about the street. If the baht bus would have had been moving quickly the passengers would not have been ejected but rather they would have been slammed into the front of the passenger area.

<snip> I see nothing that convinces me that the baht bus could not have been going faster than the truck that hit it, though this has never been an issue with me in trying to assign blame for the collision, (I have assumed the reports to be correct that say the baht bus was traveling legally in the proper direction and the black truck was not). <snip>

I would like to add that I have never felt that the baht bus was going faster than the truck that hit it, but the reason I have felt that the bus was going slower is not because of anything I can see by looking at the photos of the accident, but only because of the eye witness accounts of the collision. Eye witness accounts say the baht bus was turning from one road into another, which in itself, to me, makes it unlikely that it would have been traveling very fast. I wasn't saying that the bus coud have been traveling faster than the tuck, (with similar results), because I actually felt that to be the case, but rather I said it to try and illustrate the type of collision I thought it was. When I say that the damage could have looked similar, weather the bus was traveling faster or slower than the truck, I meant this in a general way and to do as much with the human injuries as the physical damage to the vehicles. I think there are variables involved in collision investigation that are difficult to quantify. If my memory serves me, I often see the words 'approximately' and 'between such and such a speed' when reading the summations of crash scene investigators.

Your observations may be spot on and prove a slow speed or a complete stop for the baht bus and I just can't grasp it. If you were to tell me that you have expertise in crash scene investigation or worked in the field, I would not doubt the accuracy of anything you have said.

Edited September 16, 2010 by siamiam

[canuckamuck]

I am not going to worry too much about your concern about my qualifications. I am simply observant.

[tropo]

Just to put the "did the baht bus driver have his lights on" theory to sleep - there's 5 sets of 4 floodlights at this roundabout.

[siamiam]

Just to put the "did the baht bus driver have his lights on" theory to sleep - there's 5 sets of 4 floodlights at this roundabout.

I don't know what the law is in Thailand regarding this. I do know that in California, there is no legal defense for driving with your lights turned off after dark. If you are caught driving without your lights on after dark, weather you have just been involved in a deadly accident, or not broken any other traffic law, you are busted. You would not be able to tell the police that you felt the area that you were in at the time had sufficient lighting for you to be driving with your headlights turned off. The police would laugh at you if you tried to sell them on that.

I know this is the country of Thailand, but I say it is only common sense that you don't drive after dark with your headlights turned off, no matter where you are. Just because your eyes might adjust well to night driving doesn't mean that everyone else does. When I look at the video of the crash scene, I see that the headlights of vehicles are creating quite a bit of illumination. I also see rescue personnel using flashlights. I guess you and I will have to agree to disagree on this matter.

[tropo]

Just to put the "did the baht bus driver have his lights on" theory to sleep - there's 5 sets of 4 floodlights at this roundabout.

I don't know what the law is in Thailand regarding this. I do know that in California, there is no legal defense for driving with your lights turned off after dark. If you are caught driving without your lights on after dark, weather you have just been involved in a deadly accident, or not broken any other traffic law, you are busted. You would not be able to tell the police that you felt the area that you were in at the time had sufficient lighting for you to be driving with your headlights turned off. The police would laugh at you if you tried to sell them on that.

I know this is the country of Thailand, but I say it is only common sense that you don't drive after dark with your headlights turned off, no matter where you are. Just because your eyes might adjust well to night driving doesn't mean that everyone else does. When I look at the video of the crash scene, I see that the headlights of vehicles are creating quite a bit of illumination. I also see rescue personnel using flashlights. I guess you and I will have to agree to disagree on this matter.

You've totally missed the point here. There were a number of posters suggesting that perhaps the Canadian didn't see the baht bus driver because his lights may have been off. I'm merely pointing out that this intersection is very well illuminated hence the theory that the baht bus driver could not be seen by the Canadian is not valid.

Your point about lights off is against the law is pointless. You would find the number of motor vehicles in Pattaya with lights off at night is staggering. The most common reason is that they do not work, not that they haven't been switched on or turned off. In Pattaya you drive to survive. You cannot concern yourself with what is legal or not i.e. expect the unexpected at all times.

Edited September 16, 2010 by tropo

[siamiam]

Just to put the "did the baht bus driver have his lights on" theory to sleep - there's 5 sets of 4 floodlights at this roundabout.

<snip> When I look at the video of the crash scene, I see that the headlights of vehicles are creating quite a bit of illumination. I also see rescue personnel using flashlights. <snip>

<snip> I'm merely pointing out that this intersection is very well illuminated hence the theory that the baht bus driver could not be seen by the Canadian is not valid.

Your point about lights off is against the law is pointless. You would find the number of motor vehicles in Pattaya with lights off at night is staggering. The most common reason is that they do not work, not that they haven't been switched on or turned off. In Pattaya you drive to survive. You cannot concern yourself with what is legal or not i.e. expect the unexpected at all times.

First, I want to say that the 'no headlights theory' was early on expanded to include both vehicles, not just the baht bus. In the crash scene video it looks like there are areas with more light than others. It looks like there are some dark areas as well. What is the lighting like on the edges of the roundabout and beyond? What reaction time would either of these drivers had if they were suddenly confronted with a vehicle in their path which was more or less instantly visible to them in a lighted area of the roundabout, but had just emerged without warning, due to lack of headlights, from a dark area either in the roundabout or beyond?

Regarding your statement, which I do not dispute may be based in fact, that "You cannot concern yourself with what is legal or not i.e. expect the unexpected at all times.":

1) does this also apply to people who have become accustomed to cutting a roundabout corner, because many locals and police do the same thing?

2) does it apply in cases where people drink and drive, because so many people do it?

3) where do you draw the line, is it that you can do these things as long as noone is hurt?