Why Stereotypes And Generalizations Are Important.

[mark45y]

Reading and posting in another thread about Japan and Thailand and WW II, I happened to think about the importance of stereotypes and generalizations.

In the late 1930’s both Japan and America had the wrong idea about each other. The Americans thought the Japanese timid and not good soldiers and the Japanese thought the Americans soft and not industrially capable.

It was obvious to any economic/warfare scholar that America when angered could and would out produce any country in the world at that time. When Japan attacked Pearl Harbor it was the death knell for Japan not the beginning of a war.

Some Japanese officers realized this but very few. The Americans also thought that their economic blockade of raw materials would halt Japanese aggression in China. It only served to drive Japan to declare war.

If they had both understood each others culture better it would now be a different world. I think the same may be true of many dealings between world powers in many parts of the globe.

The same things are true when a Falang and Thai woman get together. There are language and cultural barriers and differences that almost assure a reenactment of WW II.

So, that is why I think it is important on this forum that those differences be discussed even though they can only be discussed in a general manner and naturally result in a certain amount of stereotyping.

It would have done the politicians in both America and Japan before WW II little good to say they knew some nice Americans or some peaceful Japanese and that they weren’t all bad people.

National characteristics are an important part of culture and it is important they be known if one is going to have a relationship with persons or businesses in that culture.

If the Brits, Russians or Americans had a firm understanding of the people of Afghanistan they would have never entered into a conflict there. In 200 years Afghanistan hasn’t changed much.

I think Thailand looks different than it did 200 years ago but most basic truths remain the same.

I realize it is politically not correct to stereotype people but in many places such as the Middle East or China or Thailand it may be one of the best ways to understand and prepare for living in any one of those places.

History is just as important as current events in understanding another culture.

What does the kingdom of Sukhothai in 1238 have to do with your fiancé from Issan? Perhaps a lot more than you think. How many hundreds of years have the Thais been fighting the Chinese and Thai/Chinese? Don’t you know? Maybe you should, among other things

[spud1]

I,m just going to google it so I understand my G/F better.Problem is she,s Thai/Chinese.

[wintermute]

Your thread should be titled "Why stereotypes and generalizations aren't good" because you seem to state more situations that support it being a huge negative assumption to draw about people. WW2 wasn't really about misconceptions though, countries don't go to war over name calling or "misconceptions" usually it's just plain self interest.

Btw Japan knew America was industrially dangerous and Admiral Yamamoto as well as some of the leading military men in Japan even said as much. Their whole plan was to cripple the fleet at Pearl Harbor and force a truce negotiation so they could concentrate on consolidating Asia. If that didn't work then the clock was ticking and they all knew it.

In other words Japan's actions in WW2 was like betting all your chips on black at the roulette table. It wasn't necessarily a good idea but it was the only decisive move they could come up with that might take America out of the possibility of war for a few years.

If they actually bombed the carriers in Pearl Harbor their plan _may_ have worked for a few years like they assumed. It's just historical luck that the carriers were out that day.

Edited September 21, 2010 by wintermute

[mark45y]

Your right about Yamamoto. But his voice was not heeded. Up to just before the final plans were made he was against the war. America had no idea that blocking of raw materials especially oil would force Japan to war.

You are right too about false stereotypes. Both America and Japan had false stereotypes of each other.

That is why I am saying it is important to have correct stereotypes.

[elkangorito]

What is a 'correct' stereotype?

[wintermute]

Your right about Yamamoto. But his voice was not heeded.

The Imperial Japanese military command was hijacked by fanatics and the Japanese military was constantly at each others throats as well.

That is why I am saying it is important to have correct stereotypes.

Who is to say what is the correct stereotype or the false stereotype? Stereotypes by definition are generalizations usually built on misconceptions with (rarely) a small iota of truth behind it. It's just opening the door for further misconceptions and misunderstandings.

[GuestHouse]

All well and good, but the Japanese new exactly what they were getting into.

They went to war to gain access to international markets, to gain access to raw materials and to rid Asia of European Empires (to gain more access to markets and materials).

Within a handful of years after the war the European empires collapsed, the Japanese had access to international markets and raw materials.

They had achieved their objectives.

-----------

I'd agree, stereotypes are important - as a means of pigeon holing issues/people/situations so as not to have to use energy and time figuring them out. And they do this very well - You out an issue/person/people/situation in a pigeon hole and don't spend any time of effort figuring them out.... leaving you with time and energy on your hands but no real understanding of the issue/person/people/situation you've stuck on those pigeon holes.

[Ulysses G.]

All well and good, but the Japanese new exactly what they were getting into.

They went to war to gain access to international markets, to gain access to raw materials and to rid Asia of European Empires (to gain more access to markets and materials).

Within a handful of years after the war the European empires collapsed, the Japanese had access to international markets and raw materials.

They had achieved their objectives.

...Except for the part about having those pesky Americans ordering them around.

[mark45y]

I was using the American Japanese example because it is well known to some people and has effected this area of the world drastically. The war was predicated on faulty information on both sides. There is nothing inherently inaccurate in stereotypes. Inaccurate information creates inaccurate stereotypes. Garbage in garbage out.

Simply by mentioning that one is using a stereotype is enough for the PC types to cry foul.

What kind of motorcycles do Thais like? Honda tries to find out. What kind of cars do Thais like? Ford tries to find out.

There is nothing wrong with this. But when one asks what kind of women do Thais like it is stereotyping. See what I am trying to say?

[phetaroi]

First I think you have to define the word stereotype. Wikipedia (as just one source) says, "A stereotype is a commonly held public belief about specific social groups or types of individuals. The concepts of "stereotype" and "prejudice" are often confused...."

While this is not the only definition, it is one that I like. Here's why.

If I said, "The unofficial touts that hang around the Grand Palace and Wat Po will try to scam foreign tourists," that's a pretty accurate stereotype.

The problem is that one also has to realize that if you automatically slap that label on everyone who comes up to you when you are walking around those areas, then you're going to be unfair. Perhaps an occasional person just wants to chat and practice their English, but you shoo them away because you assume they're a tout. Perhaps some are honest and legitimate guides who will charge you a very fair price and give you a lot of insight into the local sights.

Stereotyping is a natural tendency of humans to classify things and people.

But here's the rub. Is stereotyping unfair to some people? Yes. But, do I have the right of private thought? I hope so. Do I have the right in my private life to associate with those people with whom I wish? I hope so. Do I have the right to talk to those people I wish to talk to? I hope so.

Here's a real example of the difference. As a former school principal I hired the teachers and counselors and other administrators in my school. On a professional and legal basis, I had an obligation to carry out fair hiring standards. But personally, I had a right to think any private thoughts I wished about any group of people.

What I'm trying to point is

1. We all stereotype;

2. Stereotyping is a natural human instinct;

3. There is a difference between the moral and legal implications of stereotyping.

[GuestHouse]

I was using the American Japanese example because it is well known to some people and has effected this area of the world drastically. The war was predicated on faulty information on both sides. There is nothing inherently inaccurate in stereotypes. Inaccurate information creates inaccurate stereotypes. Garbage in garbage out.

Simply by mentioning that one is using a stereotype is enough for the PC types to cry foul.

What kind of motorcycles do Thais like? Honda tries to find out. What kind of cars do Thais like? Ford tries to find out.

There is nothing wrong with this. But when one asks what kind of women do Thais like it is stereotyping. See what I am trying to say?

I think you'll probably find that Honda and Ford spend a great deal of time (and money) investigating the facts of purchase choices - Purchasing discrete items with very well defined attributes.

Trying to apply that to personal preferences between individuals is a tad more difficult - You might interview as many Thai women as you wish, but the men on the other side of the equation are all individuals (not mass produced products) so you have two sets of variables which will be practically impossible to unwind.

If on other hand you are making assumptions of what Thai women prefer in their Thai men, then you'd need to have a broad enough base of data to demonstrate you are not simply making a prejudicial judgement.

[mark45y]

What is a 'correct' stereotype?

Thai women have black hair.

[DP25]

What kind of cars do Thais like? Ford tries to find out.

Given Ford's 1% market share they're not trying very hard

[mark45y]

I was using the American Japanese example because it is well known to some people and has effected this area of the world drastically. The war was predicated on faulty information on both sides. There is nothing inherently inaccurate in stereotypes. Inaccurate information creates inaccurate stereotypes. Garbage in garbage out.

Simply by mentioning that one is using a stereotype is enough for the PC types to cry foul.

What kind of motorcycles do Thais like? Honda tries to find out. What kind of cars do Thais like? Ford tries to find out.

There is nothing wrong with this. But when one asks what kind of women do Thais like it is stereotyping. See what I am trying to say?

I think you'll probably find that Honda and Ford spend a great deal of time (and money) investigating the facts of purchase choices - Purchasing discrete items with very well defined attributes.

Trying to apply that to personal preferences between individuals is a tad more difficult - You might interview as many Thai women as you wish, but the men on the other side of the equation are all individuals (not mass produced products) so you have two sets of variables which will be practically impossible to unwind.

If on other hand you are making assumptions of what Thai women prefer in their Thai men, then you'd need to have a broad enough base of data to demonstrate you are not simply making a prejudicial judgement.

I think you will find that the men on Thai Visa spend a lot of time and money investigating the facts of purchase choices with Thai women.

When I buy a car I do a lot of research before I buy the car. My ex wife told me I was obsessive about research. If I was Honda or Ford I’d be right at home.

In Thailand when looking for a woman I feel it is not enough to only know the person. I feel it is necessary to know the culture and the family and the history of the family and culture.

Thai Visa is uniquely (if a bit skewed towards hi so absolutely moral women) qualified to offer advice. But that advice is usually in the form of generalizations and stereotypes.

[mark45y]

What kind of cars do Thais like? Ford tries to find out.

Given Ford's 1% market share they're not trying very hard

Like men who marry (*****) girls.

[Kwasaki]

What kind of cars do Thais like? Ford tries to find out.

Given Ford's 1% market share they're not trying very hard

Like men who marry (*****) girls.

So if l stereotyped you on mariage you would have many wives ?

[Hawkup2000]

Sometimes stereotyping can be good. If I stereotyping male hairstylists as gay I would be right in 95% of the cases and wrong in 5% of the cases.

It would be foolish of me walking around and asume most of all hairstylists are straight and then be wrong in 95% of the cases.

Edited September 21, 2010 by Hawkup2000

[IanForbes]

What is a 'correct' stereotype?

I understand what Mark is saying. It's like the old story... If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck then the chances are that it IS a duck.

If you've ever played poker then you know you have to work with the odds. When the odds are in your favour and you've read you opponent well, then your chances of winning are better. It's no different than business, or dealing with people of all levels. A staunch Jew and a radical islamic are not going to see eye to eye on anything so why would they go into a business venture together. It's really no different than when an older farang falls for some cute little bar girl from Pattaya. Yes, there is a possibility that the relationship MIGHT work for a short time, but not much chance over the long haul. There are exceptions to almost every rule, but why push the odds when they are stacked against you?

[Loz]

Wow, Not a thread for the intellectually moribund!

I think Mark and Ian have hit the nail on the head. There is value in understanding when its "safe" to sterotype and when doing so is not hurtful as much as helpful.

Understanding the game you are in, by any means, is always preferable to some. living in ignorance however, is the want of others.

Both groups should have their wishes respected.

[mark45y]

Historical stereotypes. Don’t forget history.

I have to think 50% of the problems in the world could be solved by a simple understanding of history.

Look at the news today. Sweden thinks Thai massage parlors are dispensing sex, oh what a surprise. Voodoo cursed Nigerians on the same page with hookers from Thailand. The country Thais still fighting with the Chinese Thais, oh what a surprise. Afghanistan still resisting colonial powers. The only difference in 200 years is the color of the shirts.

I came to Thailand 40 years ago. My grandfather came to Shanghai 70 years ago. His father was a whaling captain in the same places almost a century ago. What has changed? Shirts. That’s all, shirts. Great grandpa Mark said the girls didn’t wear shirts. Great grandpa Mark smoked opium and cavorted around with topless women. Oh what a shock to the ladies in Boston.

Great grandpa died in a logging camp of alcoholism. He lost his job as a sea captain and eventually ended up cooking for loggers and bemoaning his sorry state of affairs far away from the South Seas that he loved so much.

What does all this have to do with today? I stopped drinking and moved to Thailand. Now do you see the comparison? Sure I’ll die here. I’ll go out happy with gramps and great grandfather looking down on me nodding in assent and saying, “the young wippersnapper was actually listening.”

[bonobo]

Your basic premise is sound, but your wording is faulty, in my opinion.  It is not the stereotyping which is needed, but an accurate understanding.

Your example of Japan and the US highlights this.  The perceptions were faulty, hence conflict broke out (I am ignoring the argument that Japan may or may not have understood what would happen for argument's sake here).

It is important to understand cultural generalities to better function within that culture.  However, the key is to get an accurate understanding.  Faulty stereotypes will result in poor achievement of objectives.

And people must never dismiss outliers.  Japanese are not noted for social violence, for example, but some guys go crazy and knife schoolkids.  On this forum, all Thai bargirls seem to be assumed to be out to cheat and manipulate their clients, but members here have had very successful and happy marriages to former bargirls. 

[wintermute]

I came to Thailand 40 years ago. My grandfather came to Shanghai 70 years ago. His father was a whaling captain in the same places almost a century ago. What has changed? Shirts. That's all, shirts. Great grandpa Mark said the girls didn't wear shirts. Great grandpa Mark smoked opium and cavorted around with topless women. Oh what a shock to the ladies in Boston.

Your great grandpa was full of doo doo if he said women didn't wear shirts in Shanghai over a hundred years ago.

[ajarnpot]

What is a 'correct' stereotype?

Thai women have black hair.

I like this, so the Japanese woman who I always see buying a coffee in the morning is Thai, this is great

Where do you find your information on the stereotyping saving energy, the argument is plausible, as a way to deal with too much info the mind deals with it as a package

Perhaps something to do with a primitive brain working on threats around it, are those a threat or are they just birds making noise

[Loz]

Never Did find That mute button die we...

Edited September 22, 2010 by Loz

[dumball]

'bonobo' timestamp='1285124050' post='3898839']

Your basic premise is sound, but your wording is faulty, in my opinion. It is not the stereotyping which is needed, but an accurate understanding.

Your example of Japan and the US highlights this. The perceptions were faulty, hence conflict broke out (I am ignoring the argument that Japan may or may not have understood what would happen for argument's sake here).

It is important to understand cultural generalities to better function within that culture. However, the key is to get an accurate understanding. Faulty stereotypes will result in poor achievement of objectives.

And people must never dismiss outliers. Japanese are not noted for social violence, for example, but some guys go crazy and knife schoolkids. On this forum, all Thai bargirls seem to be assumed to be out to cheat and manipulate their clients, but members here have had very successful and happy marriages to former bargirls.

I am 50/50 on your post , before visiting Thailand for the first time , I did quite a lot of research to find which country would suit my personal preference, I took little of what I read as fact because what suits one may not suit another , so I formed a list of generalities and steriotyping to give me a base off of which I could make a decision . On arrival in Thailand I toured around various areas to get my own feel of if I would return or not , most of my aquired knowledge was used to avoid pit falls or situations I did not wish to find myself involved in , it worked well for me because I was forewarned and not just an inocent 'Newbie' .

I returned some months later better armed with my own garnered experiences , finaly I moved to Thailand with a very cautious eye and way of thinking , and slowly dug into 'The nature of the beast' , much of what was displayed on the surface was belied by what lay beneath in the culture and idealism of the Thai people I mingled amongst . In the 7 years I spent in Thailand and in a few relationships I found myself in during that time , I realised I would not find what I was looking for , the generalities and steryotypes were far too much in the majority , so I moved on .

Without those predisposed comments posted on TV I would have been lost in my confusion , I could easily have ran into many of the scenarios that many expats had fallen for , that was neither my intent or desire , had I been only desirous of touring and living in a year long warmer climate than all of the others I had experienced , I would have remained , Thailand surely is the country in which to do just that , the ladies on the other hand are of a different stripe , from an ex-millionaires wife through a high school English teacher to the lowly bar girl , I found the bargirl to be more acceptable in many ways , but on average I found the brain power to be less than desired and good communication practically impossible ..

[Huey]

Historical stereotypes. Don't forget history.

I have to think 50% of the problems in the world could be solved by a simple understanding of history.

Look at the news today. Sweden thinks Thai massage parlors are dispensing sex, oh what a surprise. Voodoo cursed Nigerians on the same page with hookers from Thailand. The country Thais still fighting with the Chinese Thais, oh what a surprise. Afghanistan still resisting colonial powers. The only difference in 200 years is the color of the shirts.

I came to Thailand 40 years ago. My grandfather came to Shanghai 70 years ago. His father was a whaling captain in the same places almost a century ago. What has changed? Shirts. That's all, shirts. Great grandpa Mark said the girls didn't wear shirts. Great grandpa Mark smoked opium and cavorted around with topless women. Oh what a shock to the ladies in Boston.

Great grandpa died in a logging camp of alcoholism. He lost his job as a sea captain and eventually ended up cooking for loggers and bemoaning his sorry state of affairs far away from the South Seas that he loved so much.

What does all this have to do with today? I stopped drinking and moved to Thailand. Now do you see the comparison? Sure I'll die here. I'll go out happy with gramps and great grandfather looking down on me nodding in assent and saying, "the young wippersnapper was actually listening."

Thats beautiful.

Ain't nothing changed but the shirts.

[mark45y]

I came to Thailand 40 years ago. My grandfather came to Shanghai 70 years ago. His father was a whaling captain in the same places almost a century ago. What has changed? Shirts. That's all, shirts. Great grandpa Mark said the girls didn't wear shirts. Great grandpa Mark smoked opium and cavorted around with topless women. Oh what a shock to the ladies in Boston.

Your great grandpa was full of doo doo if he said women didn't wear shirts in Shanghai over a hundred years ago.

Read, my god. That was great grandpa in the South Seas not grandpa in Shanghai. What Grandpa told me about Shanghai I could not repeat on Thai Visa.

[mark45y]

Your basic premise is sound, but your wording is faulty, in my opinion.  It is not the stereotyping which is needed, but an accurate understanding.

Your example of Japan and the US highlights this.  The perceptions were faulty, hence conflict broke out (I am ignoring the argument that Japan may or may not have understood what would happen for argument's sake here).

It is important to understand cultural generalities to better function within that culture.  However, the key is to get an accurate understanding.  Faulty stereotypes will result in poor achievement of objectives.

And people must never dismiss outliers.  Japanese are not noted for social violence, for example, but some guys go crazy and knife schoolkids.  On this forum, all Thai bargirls seem to be assumed to be out to cheat and manipulate their clients, but members here have had very successful and happy marriages to former bargirls. 

I agree with most of what you said. I am sure there must be some white crows around although I have never seen one.

By and large I think it is safe to assume if one is looking for a basketball player the best bet would be to go to the US. Not everyone in the US is a basketball player and there are other countries with good basketball players as well but in general if one wants a basketball player the US is the best bet.

If one is looking for a pay for play lady I think it is safe to assume Thailand is the place to go. Not everyone is in the business and there are pay for play women in other countries but in general if one wants a pay for play lady Thailand is the best bet.

How many Nigerian massage places are there in Sweden? You want a nail salon get a Vietnamese girl. You want great baking powder biscuits get a woman from Atlanta. If my primary purpose in retirement was to dance the tango I would have gone to Argentina.

[Loz]

Mark,

Would you please post something stupid. I am beginning to think you don't know how to screw up like the rest of us!

Your posts should come with a common sense warning. You see, not everyone is ready to accept such a comodity. Exposure to it is feared and fought off with their dying breath!

Edited September 22, 2010 by Loz

[Thakkar]

Good topic, Mark. And Loz is right, you'd better post something stupid double quick or visitors will think they're in the wrong place.

Stereotyping has got a bad rap, but for good reason when one fails to move on from the general to the specific. In other words, it's a good place to start, but one mustn't get stuck there. As GuestHouse seems to allude, it mustn't be a substitute for critical thinking, keeping an open mind and a willingness to reassess.

Stereotyping and generalizing can be as harmful as they can be helpful. They are necessary shortcuts we all need to employ on a daily basis. Most of us do this without even thinking, mostly (and luckily) to little ill effect. Except perhaps that our lives become just a tiny bit poorer and we don't even know it. However tangible harm can come when we employ notions based on stereotypes to major decisions.

So while useful and even necessary, handle those stereotypes with care, and keep checking for updates.