One Dead, Two Critical Injured Following Phuket Horror Smash

[newermonkey]

Sorry for the kids parents.

Problem in Thailand there is no pride in diving skills. Personally I take pride in the skills I have so when I stop at a red light in a timely and anticipated manner other drivers who are still racing through the red light hoot at me for stopping. They obviously think "road hog, idiot, moron" and presume "the farang dose not know how to drive!!!" How wrong are they.

Personally my observations are that the articulated truck drivers appear to be a little bit better than most Thai drivers. but the tour mini-bus drivers are generally totally evil. and seem to revel in "how good at being bad they can be"

[ScubaBuddha]

Do you have to stop at red lights in Thailand?

Only if there is a policeman nearby. In practice, traffic lights are merely a suggestion.

[ScubaBuddha]

So sad. Unfortunately all too common here. It does seem to be true what the Thai's say: The higher the driver sits, the more self-important and aggressive the driver.

While I completely agree with your statement, it is also fatally flawed.

How does this rule pertain to the aggressive, lawless, callous motorbike riders who seem to ride about within a veil of complete invincibility. While this does not include every motorbike rider in Thailand, I would say that it very likely includes a high percentage of the motorbike riders that are involved in accidents.

I have been a motorbike rider for years (and on bikes much bigger than seen in Thailand), I have always been very aware that if I am involved in an accident, of any kind with any vehicle, I am the one that will get hurt. So because of this I ride, rode accordingly safe, and protective of my own life.

Now a truck moving at speed is not that hard to see, surely it is easier to see than the ant like motorbikes that swarm all over the cars and truck at the traffic lights everywhere here in Thailand. Why did the motorbike riders involved in this accident not see or hear the truck coming, and be somewhat responsible for their own safety, well, that is because the motorbike riders are invincible. Unless they are hit by a 20 tonne 22 wheeler, which in case they are still alright because the motorbike riders are rarely at fault in an accident, so mai bpen rai. The family will claim the losses against the driver of the truck, who possibly could not stop, the road was wet (as seen in the pictures) and supposedly slippery.

Added to this, we will take a vote. How many car drivers here have seen ALL of the motorbikes at traffic lights wait until there actually is a green light for them??????? Or do they start on their journey with about 3 seconds of red still showing......

The road laws pertaining to motorbike riders need to be at least looked at to see if the law could have played a part in this accident. Sadly I do not think that this will happen.

Your taking it way to seriously. It's just a metaphor. Besides, if a motorcyclist drives in the same aggressive, egotistical way, they will be dead soon.

[brahmburgers]

Inevitable when:- 1) Many people start to cross before red turns to green (they are watching the light for the traffic that has a green).

2) Many people will still keep going even after green has turned to red (the "always time for one more" mentality).

Agreed, particularly the very common trend of running red lights. Selfishness prevails. Often, when I slow to stop for a yellow or red light, Thai drivers will slip in front of me in my lane. When the light turns green, I wait a couple seconds, then sound my horn while slowly entering the intersection. I've also become a honky when about to enter left hand sweeps in the road, because more often than not, approaching drivers will be a half or even a full car width over the line - on my side of the road.

Cops are useless in that regard - certainly in northernmost Thailand where I reside. I don't think there's ever been consequences for a 'moving violation' (illegal action on the roads) in the history of Chiang Rai. If anyone wants to constantly run red lights and get away with it, Chiang Rai is the place to be. It's not uncommon to see drivers racing thru intersections - 2 or 3 seconds after their light turns red. Despicable and beyond rudeness.

[eljeque]

Take the truck. Sell it and give the money to the family. Then, companies will start to be more responsible about their drivers. Put the driver in jail for running from the scene. If found, return some money from the truck sale to the company. Then, the company will not show the police a fake license and not be able to locate the driver.

[newermonkey]

Inevitable when:- 1) Many people start to cross before red turns to green (they are watching the light for the traffic that has a green).

2) Many people will still keep going even after green has turned to red (the "always time for one more" mentality).

Agreed, particularly the very common trend of running red lights. Selfishness prevails. Often, when I slow to stop for a yellow or red light, Thai drivers will slip in front of me in my lane. When the light turns green, I wait a couple seconds, then sound my horn while slowly entering the intersection. I've also become a honky when about to enter left hand sweeps in the road, because more often than not, approaching drivers will be a half or even a full car width over the line - on my side of the road.

Cops are useless in that regard - certainly in northernmost Thailand where I reside. I don't think there's ever been consequences for a 'moving violation' (illegal action on the roads) in the history of Chiang Rai. If anyone wants to constantly run red lights and get away with it, Chiang Rai is the place to be. It's not uncommon to see drivers racing thru intersections - 2 or 3 seconds after their light turns red. Despicable and beyond rudeness.

Chiang Rai is not the only place, this is common practice all over Thailand.

A Thai diver is considered to be "Geng Mak" when getting through the red light without serious ingery, because it proves he knows about perfect timing, amazing judgment and bravery... thinking "I am as good or better than the police who I have copied red light running from, I am a skilled operator".

They think that the red light is just a sort of casual reminder that traffic might be coming from the other direction, its not really a rule as such, getting stopped by the police for running a red is not because its wrong its because the police have picked on him for a money making opportunity.

[ableguy]

Sounds a horrific accident, condolences to all the families involved. Maybe a chance for Tesco to step in and take the high ground here. If this is a notorious accident junction improve the road layout to save lifes - it looks like its outside their store.

solid thinking but it wont happen, we all know that but sad.

[ableguy]

Another tragic accident.

Some one on the forum said "never trust a green light"

Another way of putting it is "A green light is only an invitation to proceed".

Internationally applicable.

Do you not realize that any Thai on the road has to save every second he can at whatever cost or some thing worse than death will happen to him, at least I think so, it must be so otherwise why do they do it ?

[ableguy]

Another tragic accident.

Some one on the forum said "never trust a green light"

Another way of putting it is "A green light is only an invitation to proceed".

Internationally applicable.

Do you not realize that any Thai on the road has to save every second he can at whatever cost or some thing worse than death will happen to him, at least I think so, it must be so otherwise why do they do it ?

[wprime]

The article says that the truck driver ran a RED light. The truck driver also ran away because he knows he was wrong.

As I had established earlier, it's very likely that both vehicles went through a red light, there is a reasonable time frame in which both drivers can be aware they would collide, which driver was capable of avoiding the collision once they could have become aware of it? The motorcycle driver. Who is likely to suffer most in such an accident, the motorcycle driver. The motorcycle driver clearly had the duty of care.

Once the motorcycle crossed the path of the truck, there is nothing the truck can do. If the motorcycle driver had looked for oncoming traffic like any experienced driver would, there would not have been an accident.

You can throw around blame everywhere, the truck driver for running a red, the state for not teaching motorcycle drivers to take care, the parents for allowing the same, but at the end of the same, the motorcycle drivers took the direct actions which led to their deaths, unfortunate as it was more than likely out of inexperience than anything else.

Green has never meant its safe to blindly run an intersection, not in Thailand, not anywhere.

[traveller76]

OMG! I just drove by this intersection on 28sept morning while on my way to airport... May the girl RIP

by the way, there isn't any law in Phuket that require motorcyclist to wear crash helmets?

[random]

So what are people supposed to do? Just read the article, file it the deleted folder and move on? Jeez this would be one mother of a boring forum if everybody did that. The idea of a forum is to register views and discuss things, if you don't like that....why did you reply?

The answer to all this is of course simple. Just turn the Thai police force into an honest, upright body of men and women dedicated to upholding the laws of the country no matter what.

And we all know we will witness a snowball fight between gangs of flying pigs over the river Styx before that ever happens.

stop it

comedy gold

seriously, things like this will never end, I drive every day in Bangkok, and every day without fail I see an accident or the aftermath, (as in both cars parked at side of road waiting for the insurance company). I allowed my UK licence to run out by mistake and took the Thai driving test, if you ever take this you will realise why people here simply can not drive properly and do not show any common sense when driving. the only actual driving part of the test was in a car park where you had to reverse into a space, then drive forward into a space, then stop next to the kerb. the computer test was a joke, i finished all the questions in about 5 minutes while I saw all the Thais around me struggling with the most basic of questions. At one point I had to call the xaminer over as the way the question was written in English it could have been two of the answers, he responded by just giving me the answer.

The main issue here however is the 'fuc_k you' attitude of road users, they all consider themselves to be the most important, there is no courtesy and not thought goes into consequence, people will make a manoeuvre in the hope that others will see them and allow them, red lights are a joke, I sit and watch as around 5 or 6 cars come hurtling through on red, you then have to wait despite being on green, sometimes a bike will set off on green only having to brake as another moron comes hurtling through on red.

To put it bluntly you reap what you sow, poor enforcement, poor training, and a complete lack of common sense behind the wheel and putting too much trust in an amulet means the situation will never get any better, they may as well same money here and not bother with lights or road markings as nobody takes any notice of them anyway.

[random]

As I had established earlier, it's very likely that both vehicles went through a red light, there is a reasonable time frame in which both drivers can be aware they would collide, which driver was capable of avoiding the collision once they could have become aware of it? The motorcycle driver. Who is likely to suffer most in such an accident, the motorcycle driver. The motorcycle driver clearly had the duty of care.

Once the motorcycle crossed the path of the truck, there is nothing the truck can do. If the motorcycle driver had looked for oncoming traffic like any experienced driver would, there would not have been an accident.

You can throw around blame everywhere, the truck driver for running a red, the state for not teaching motorcycle drivers to take care, the parents for allowing the same, but at the end of the same, the motorcycle drivers took the direct actions which led to their deaths, unfortunate as it was more than likely out of inexperience than anything else.

Green has never meant its safe to blindly run an intersection, not in Thailand, not anywhere.

Excellent point, I never go through any junction without covering my brakes and looking both ways.

[Samuian]

That stretch of road from the airport to Central is a down-hill slope and the truck driver probably didn't want to lose his inertia by braking hard.

He would have known he wouldn't get there before the lights went red so he should have flashed his lights and sounded his horn - anything to stop people pulling out without looking.

RIP to the poor girl and condolences to everyone affected.

RIP-

but then even the driver would be flashing his head lights and honking the horn, would ANYONE respond to it?

I have witnessed situations, where people are seemmingly just way too busy with themselves, on the mobile, or their way to go, that they will miss everthing else...

The problem is widespread and deep ingrained irresponseability, fines are too low, law informent almost not occurring, a general very lax attitude towards what is right and what is wrong.

Well, yes but then, a healthy amount, a healthy mix would already do!

maybe an traffic-social behaviour awareness campaign is in the books?

[moskito]

Yes the annual road toll is horrific, but if you check the figures Thailand is pretty much equal to the world average. There are lots of countries that have a higher per capita toll.

NAME THEM !!!

sorry Sabre but thats bull..t, even in Cambodia, Mexico City, Domenican Republic and Egypt (Cairo) I NEVER saw any accident with death or basket cases.

I love Thailand too, I just hate the behaviour of its ppl, specially when it comes to courtesy on the road.

[cup-O-coffee]

There is a lot of exaggeration in this thread.

Yes, Thai drivers have a lot of room for improvement. But they are leagues ahead of some other nationalities/countries I can think of.

Yes the annual road toll is horrific, but if you check the figures Thailand is pretty much equal to the world average. There are lots of countries that have a higher per capita toll.

Most people posting here simply do not know the circumstances of the accident (myself included). Anyone who has been in an accident knows that there are a thousand tiny details that can play a part, and will change the overall picture.

In courts of law, judges, lawyers, doctors, and other experts often spend weeks in trials trying to determine where the blame lies for a particular road accident. It is complicated. Witnesses are fallible. It's rarely black and white.

Perhaps it's worth mulling these points over before making snap judgements.

A lot of the comments imply the "rule of law", whereas the other law is the "law of majority". The law of majority rules.

The police

Were the police to follow the "Rule of Law" and uphold that law to the fullest extent, then I wager the roads would be clear of most Thai drivers. The jails would be full, and we would have a new problem on our hands; overcrowded jails. The masses would not go for this, and there would be riots. Thais riot when the government pushes too far on their "Law of Majority". The government is not equipped to handle this, and therefore they seem to keep the fire to manageable blaze, and do their best not to let it spread and get out of control.

The police themselves are severely ill equipped to handle the population with regards to upkeep of law, and penalizing the wrongdoer. Imagine the average, underpaid, underqualified, under trained police officer whose training is "OJT" (on the job), and they have a choice of dealing with the crime scene on the spot, or taking it into the office, where mountains of paperwork are a certainty, and any "righteous cop" is labeled as not being a "team player". The law enforcement agency seems to be nothing more than a cottage industry that survives only to perpetuate itself. There is no law, only a symbiol of what the law should be. There is no respect for this symbol, because any Thai will laugh and crack a joke when you ask them about the police. That is a fact. The "Law of Majority" takes the day. The joke that is law enforcement tries to play catch up to the population beast and its ever evolving, unconscious "Law of Majority".

The points above do not make sense, and can not be used as a comparison to Thailand.

The exagerrations are simply elaborations on events I have witnessed with my own eyes; each one mentioned. It is senseless to dismiss this described behavior as an exaggeration. It happens!

The figures you say that can be comparable are non-sensical. You can not compare Swaziland to Thailand. On the other hand, you can not compare the USA to Thailand. Swaziland is a cesspool of violence where the law is backed up by who has the most guns, and they are not afraid of using them. The USA is what Thailand tries to imitate, yet fails miserably due to its culture that encourages illiteracy and stubbornness. The traffic mortality figures of the USA are well documented, and the violators see justice with a certainty. Thailand's traffic mortality figures would shoot off the charts of every other country were these events truthfully, accurately and comprehensively reported to the polls. I am talking about a culture where to outright lie is acceptable even at the highest levels. Yes; liars!

Knowing the circumstances! This is nonsensical! What tiny details do you need to know that would persuade or convince you that a 20 tonne object going at a high rate of speed will certainly turn you into paste if you get in its path? Reasons do not matter when you are paste. Knowing that the potential is there, and not taking the necessary precautions implicate you, because you knew in advance and ignored it. Never, ever take operating a motor vehicle for granted. It will bite you in the bum the moment you lose your respect for it and others around you. That is the first rule every motorbike driver is taught in the US, and any veteran will tell you when asked.

Your reference to the ills that the courts of law face can be described as ludicrous; I say respectfully to you. You first have to establish a law enforcement and judicial system that work together as one body, and uphold their decrees to the fuillest extend of their powers. Given that I made the point that liars are allowed into this system; that makes this entire point fruitless and an exercise in futility.

There is nothing to mull over here. Snap jugments are a common occurance in the minds of those who are educated in a system that demonstrates human beings being conscientious towards the safety of those around them, and the environmental and physical conditions in evidence at the time the event could occur. I just described something that is anti-Thai culture. Assimilating into this culture does not save me. It is by using the cunning and intelligence I learned in a literate and educated system abroad, added to my knowledge of the predictable behavior of this culture, that allows for me to survive, whilst they drop around me like flies.

This is my opinion about your opinion, and I did not mind typing it out. It is that important to me.

Edited September 30, 2010 by cup-O-coffee

[ryladie99]

So sad. Unfortunately all too common here. It does seem to be true what the Thai's say: The higher the driver sits, the more self-important and aggressive the driver.

You are so Right....I am so scare whenever I have to share roads with the Rigs. I make sure I change my lane and fly off as fast as I can...I do not know Why our Government do not have laws that allow the Rigs to travel at night while the cars travel at the day time...

It is Public safety and Common Sense...my heart and soul go with the families...a person who committed a crime will not get away because, the law of Universe will never let go. My point and personal opinion.

[fareastphil]

should string the bastard up when//if they get him...why do the thais bother with traffic lights when no one takes any notice....

sit at any junction and 100% of the time 2 or 3 drivers will go through a red light every single time,,even when police are there because they do nothing about it,,,

I recently got fined 600 baht for crossing the yellow line in the middle of the road approaching a junction on my motorcycle,,,had I run a red light instead my fine would have been only 400 baht!!

RIP

i do hope they catch the driver

[VBF]

My wife told me that if you hit a motorbike that you are "always" at fault and if a bus/truck hits a car the former are always at fault--regarding of who was at actual fault--the concept being that the bigger one has to look out for the littlier one--maybe that's why the truck driver ran away regardless of the actual facts--that's what she told me, whether that is true in all cases I dont know, but I wouldnt doubt it.

That may be true in fault finding but the prevailing mentality is biggest vehicle wins.

I have been told of this "fault" ruling too. When I drive in Thailand wirth my girlfriend, she gets very nevous whenever a motorbike is nearby, because if I hit it, it will ALWAYS be my "fault" whatever the bike rider does.

Then again the contradiction appears to be that, in Thailand, whatever the rules say, in practice it's "Might of Way" not "Right of Way" and worry about the consequences later. TIT

Edited September 30, 2010 by VBF

[george]

Update:

Phuket police identify horror smash victim

More:

[newermonkey]

My wife told me that if you hit a motorbike that you are "always" at fault and if a bus/truck hits a car the former are always at fault--regarding of who was at actual fault--the concept being that the bigger one has to look out for the littlier one--maybe that's why the truck driver ran away regardless of the actual facts--that's what she told me, whether that is true in all cases I dont know, but I wouldnt doubt it.

That may be true in fault finding but the prevailing mentality is biggest vehicle wins.

I have been told of this "fault" ruling too. When I drive in Thailand wirth my girlfriend, she gets very nevous whenever a motorbike is nearby, because if I hit it, it will ALWAYS be my "fault" whatever the bike rider does.

Then again the contradiction appears to be that, in Thailand, whatever the rules say, in practice it's "Might of Way" not "Right of Way" and worry about the consequences later. TIT

Regarding something not directly poniant to this case is, in my own experience the Farangs are always to blame because the Thais always presume (wrongly) that the foreigners will pay out more money when accused.

[robert00]

The locals in Phuket drive like maniacs, I live here and I can honestly say I have never seen such bad, aggressive driving anywhere in the world compared to this place. This said I feel deeply for the poor girl and her family who are left to pick up their lives with such an empty void.. This person who was driving this killing machine which is what a 10 ton 20 wheel lump of steel is needs to be hunted down fast.

Why do the thai police let these stupid fools drive like crazy on this island? Why don't they enforce the law (if there is any law left).. I see everyday stupidity of people on motorbikes as well as cars, they don't have any consideration for other road users period..

You should come to Chiang Mai, the bike riders here are brainless, 70% dont wear helmets, even if they get booked every day. Nighttime is an absolute horror, half of the bike riders have no lights in front and back and the other half, either no lights in front or in the back. I have come up so close of hitting one with my car many times, because one just can not see them until the last minute. The other thing they turn from left to right and right to left without ever looking. I have to find out the statistics of how many bike riders dye her every day. I have ridden bikes in Phuket and BKK as well as Pataya but nothing ever has been as bad as here in Chiang Mai. I can only hope that the Police does something very soon about it.

[Sabre]

Yes the annual road toll is horrific, but if you check the figures Thailand is pretty much equal to the world average. There are lots of countries that have a higher per capita toll.

NAME THEM !!!

sorry Sabre but thats bull..t, even in Cambodia, Mexico City, Domenican Republic and Egypt (Cairo) I NEVER saw any accident with death or basket cases.

I love Thailand too, I just hate the behaviour of its ppl, specially when it comes to courtesy on the road.

Yes, but your observations are anecdotes and not really useful for gathering hard data. We need to look at the numbers.

Thailand has 19.6 road fatalities per 100,000 people per year. Many countries exceed this figure - Malaysia = 24.1, Mexico = 20.7, Myanmar = 23.4, Phillipines = 20.0, Afghanistan = 39, Eritrea = 48.4, Iran = 35.8, Jordan = 34.2, Libya = 40.5 plus just about every country in Africa.

There are many more countries that have a worse rate than Thailand. The world average is 20.8, so Thailand is better than average.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-related_death_rate

[Sabre]

Actually the beauty of statistics is that you can compare Swaziland to Thailand. That's the point.

It goes like this:

Thailand = 19.6 deaths / 100,000 people / year.

Swaziland = 26.3 deaths / 100,.000 people / year.

Thailand 19.6 / Swaziland 26.3

And yes, we could throw in the U.S.A. too and compare all three ...

Statistics. Helping us to compare.

[Jimi007]

OMG! I just drove by this intersection on 28sept morning while on my way to airport... May the girl RIP

by the way, there isn't any law in Phuket that require motorcyclist to wear crash helmets?

She was wearing a helmet. And yes there is a law that the driver and passenger must wear one. But an eighteen wheeled truck versus a motorbike is never a win for a motorbike. The driver of the motorbike obviously did not look to see if the intersection was clear. Seeing 1 or 2 seconds on the count down timer, it was time to go. I feel sorry for her family, friends and the truck driver as well. But the motorbike has a clear view and does not a 20 ton load to try and stop. It was an accident that could have been prevented with a bit more attention paid by all the parties involved.

[jbrewer]

they run away for several reasons, line up the cash and power friends needed to clear the matter with police, and to allow time for the drugs or alcohol to clear from their system circumvention of any test.

sad, but very likely to be true!

[metisdead]

they run away for several reasons, line up the cash and power friends needed to clear the matter with police, and to allow time for the drugs or alcohol to clear from their system circumvention of any test.

sad, but very likely to be true!

However, according to the update posted above:

The truck driver, 33-year-old Pongtorn Phutong, told Phuket City Police that he saw the yellow light as he approached the intersection and tried to stop.

However, the brakes failed and he lost control of the rig, which was fully laden with ceramic tiles. He did not attempt to flee the scene, Capt Kittphum said.

He is now in custody and awaiting charges by police, who are continuing their investigation today.

[midas]

The locals in Phuket drive like maniacs, I live here and I can honestly say I have never seen such bad, aggressive driving anywhere in the world compared to this place. This said I feel deeply for the poor girl and her family who are left to pick up their lives with such an empty void.. This person who was driving this killing machine which is what a 10 ton 20 wheel lump of steel is needs to be hunted down fast.

Why do the thai police let these stupid fools drive like crazy on this island? Why don't they enforce the law (if there is any law left).. I see everyday stupidity of people on motorbikes as well as cars, they don't have any consideration for other road users period..

Good question but have you seen how easy it is for a Thai to get a driving licence ?

All the driver training and even the test itself is done " off road " - how can anyone

be expected to have good road sense with such poor driver training.

So we should also be blaming the carefree lawmakers and yes the carefree police.

Every day with the addition of eve more cars on these roads i see the standards

slipping further and further. Have you seen how many times people double

park in the most ridiculous spots.

[cup-O-coffee]

Yes the annual road toll is horrific, but if you check the figures Thailand is pretty much equal to the world average. There are lots of countries that have a higher per capita toll.

NAME THEM !!!

sorry Sabre but thats bull..t, even in Cambodia, Mexico City, Domenican Republic and Egypt (Cairo) I NEVER saw any accident with death or basket cases.

I love Thailand too, I just hate the behaviour of its ppl, specially when it comes to courtesy on the road.

Yes, but your observations are anecdotes and not really useful for gathering hard data. We need to look at the numbers.

Thailand has 19.6 road fatalities per 100,000 people per year. Many countries exceed this figure - Malaysia = 24.1, Mexico = 20.7, Myanmar = 23.4, Phillipines = 20.0, Afghanistan = 39, Eritrea = 48.4, Iran = 35.8, Jordan = 34.2, Libya = 40.5 plus just about every country in Africa.

There are many more countries that have a worse rate than Thailand. The world average is 20.8, so Thailand is better than average.

http://en.wikipedia....ated_death_rate

These polls take the information Thailand provides. Thailand lies. Therein is your problem.

Actually the beauty of statistics is that you can compare Swaziland to Thailand. That's the point.

It goes like this:

Thailand = 19.6 deaths / 100,000 people / year.

Swaziland = 26.3 deaths / 100,.000 people / year.

Thailand 19.6 / Swaziland 26.3

And yes, we could throw in the U.S.A. too and compare all three ...

Statistics. Helping us to compare.

My point being that you would even for a moment take what Thailand provides as fact, and use it as a comparison to a much more credible country as the US. That you would, in fact, believe these statistics, as provided by corrupt officials, and use it as a supportive argument to downplay what we all know as a situation far more serious than what these "statistics" show.

I submit that were Thailand to properly document and report each incident, on a case by case basis (as the US does), that the statistics would shoot off the chart. But I know this will never be so, because I know for a fact that to lie in this culture is not a criminal offense and is instead nurtured and downplayed, regardless of the consequences that the lie creates.

No way; absolutely no way of driving in the US for 29 years have I seen the absolute lunacy I see here, You can not tell me that Thailand is comparative to the US, in what I sense is information not being collected, or is being suppressed, or simply being ignored, through incompetence, a stubborn refusal to appear flawed and an overly adolescent mindset amongst the natives.

Nope! Never trust a green light in Thailand, and never trust any information unless you are there to see it for yourself, and verify with your own senses that it is so. To do so is to place yourself at a risk of loss, damage, or death.

Fight or flight, avoid or kill, stay and dominate, or pull a runner, and when in doubt, lie lie lie. Those are things foreigners learn very quickly if they hang around long enough. 19.6 road fatalities per 100,000 people per year my arse! Seems they forgot to insert the word "reported" after the 19.6. But go ahead and believe that this is a comprehensive report. No skin off my nose.

Incidentally, on the way home tonight from dinner, I could have easily taken out 10 motorcyclists were I not watching all my mirrors and the front screen. It really diminishes ones ability to feel sympathy for incessant, bestial behavior. 5 of these near misses were the <deleted> who come barreling out of a perpendicular side Soi and swing a quick left right into your lane without so much as slowing down or even casting one glance in the direction of oncoming traffic. Sheer lunacy!

Here is a statistic that is more comparable than your 19.6%. Whether it relates to what is seen daily, on the roads and Sois, is up to the reader to decide.

[spectrumisgreen]

So sad. Unfortunately all too common here. It does seem to be true what the Thai's say: The higher the driver sits, the more self-important and aggressive the driver.

How true.

also, drivers don't really 'do' more than cursory road safety here, things like waiting appropriately at red lights or slowing at intersections, do they? Very sad and very tragic, but not a one-off type of incident, unfortunately... like the idiots on their mobiles clearly not even thinking 'Can I ride safely whilst talking on my phone?', more like 'Can I manage to chat obliviously away on my phone whilst riding one handed?'.. no 'safety' considerations in there at all, sadly... And who needs a helmet? Not even the children!!!