Treat Poor Thais Like Children

[TheLaughingMan]

Dear lord... the carebears are out in force. OK Thais have a LIFETIME of socialisation that your eager need to treat them like equals will not change. So while you are busy acting overly equal and nice you are just confusing them and opening the door for them to take advantage of you. If you don't know this I highly doubt you even live in this country! Im not saying treat people badly, but this "need" to equalise everyone is just going to cause more problems in your life than less.

[GuestHouse]

Regardless of how rich Thais tr eatpoor Thais, I'm quite certain that failing to treat Thais as rational thinking adults with all the same strengths and weaknesses as the rest of us is at the root of why so many Farangs F-up big time in Thailand.

[Thaddeus]

I employ a middle aged village couple where the wife cleans my house, does the laundry etc and the husband does odd jobs and the garden. As like most others I've been brought up to treat everybody equally. The problem is they will insist on bowing and scraping to me as if I were royalty.

Yes, l have experienced the same but l ignore it cos it makes me feel humble and annoyed at the same time but l respect their feelings.

I think that a hefty number of us have experienced that and I can't stand it for two reasons, firstly, they are elevating me to a platform that I don't deserve, and secondly why do they feel the need to do it.... it's just so wrong.

[bina]

i will quote my poor intelligent thai husband... he says: nothing is free except with pi/nong... so although we treat everyone with courtesy, freebies are not to be given. in other words: just to buy someone something does make u a 'long term sucker' where u were just feeling nice . however, to buy someone something in return for something, that is courtesy. on kibbutz everyone including my boss at work makes the same money gets the same benefits etc. ; something that thai husband still has hard time to grasp. ive been a kitchen cook, a manager, a toilet cleaner, and a shift boss... and at various times was either boss or bossed by the same people. i treat them the same. he treats all his bosses as 'above him' and therefore must take care of him (like in the old thai hiearchy of jao (lord) and peasant slaves. ive learned to be gracious when given the 'grovel' treatment, rather then fight it, and rather then ignore it. incidently, i have a girlfriend here who was originally from an old maryland southern estate family, and she is very good being gracious, pleasant, but not too familiar with anyone working under her. she is neither embarrassed nor uncomfortable with it, but smiles, nods, says thank very much for the ..., and if its someone she knows a bit longer, will inquire after family or health. thai society reminds me sometimes of the old gentlemen south. not all southern families abused those that were slaves, nor later when they still had servants.

an example is when i go to the thai workers quarters here or anywhere in my country, i am 'THE BOSS" (translating from hebrew, 'owner of the house') and i get treated slightly differently. and i am expected to act slightly differently. i am expected to buy the occasional whiskey for an occasion, i am expected to give more money at the string tieing events, (even though they are richer then me money wise btw)and i am expected to expect them to do things for me that 'fit my station'. i cant stand and wash dishes in their kitchen after a party meal. they dont allow me to do so. but i can say thank you to all the guys that did the cooking, organizing etc. although here in my country it is expected that any woman (yes we are chauvinistic here) even if she is your boss, might get up to help with the dishes.

the saying: treat poor thais like children- smacks of patriarchical colonialism..'keep the natives happy with food, alcohol, they are children and need guidelines: a firm hand (like a horse?) etc etc... -- really.

poverty is a choice?!! i dont think my issan husband would agree. bad education or no education (had to work in the fields) , no capital, an agrarian society where money is tied in to land and crops, and a society that doesnt provide oppurtunities for someone like him to gain a foothold, those are the things that keep him in poverty there, (and being married to a poor but intelligent kibbutznik here )

u can treat poeple from 'all stations of life' with courtesy and respect that doesnt mean that u have to be nice, overly nice or want to please them. it does mean that u dont abuse your status - if someone asks for sick leave, u can consider it and then give it, u dont have to be a maniac and refuse just to pull rank; u also dont have to have employees disappear every five minutes for breaks. it has nothing to do with being nice. just courtesy and respect.

yes, giving unexpected presents is seen as 'freebies and therefore should be taken advantage of . why not? someone who wants to give something away must have lots more and can afford it, so why shouldnt he/she give away more?...

as some say: graciousness and courtesy towards others shows real breeding regardless of monetary station.

this thread can stay if it stays on the lines of society and treatment of different classes in thailand. if there is any thai bashing/slurs/racist marks beyond what has been said which borders on the verge, then warnings etc will start....

bina

israel

[StreetCowboy]

Agree entirely with Chunky. You don't see wealthy Thais treating poor Thai with much respect. Thai bosses know how to deal with staff and don't stand for any nonsense. Farang bosses are far more likely to be taken advantage of by their staff. You also dont see many Thais rushing to pay 500K baht sin sot for an uneducated farmers daughter, yet plenty of farangs do. This type of behaviour just adds further encouragement for Thais to take the piss when it comes to dealing with farang employers.

You're quite right. And its well worth a little piss to sort the wheat from the chaf.

I run a Western business, and I'd not employ piss-taking chaves, so I'm quite willing to give them one chance, and then pay to get rid of them; notwithstanding that was a long time ago and actually only once proved necessary.

I guess I'm lucky to have worked with people instead of human resources...

SC

[Thaddeus]

Dear lord... the carebears are out in force. OK Thais have a LIFETIME of socialisation that your eager need to treat them like equals will not change. So while you are busy acting overly equal and nice you are just confusing them and opening the door for them to take advantage of you. If you don't know this I highly doubt you even live in this country! Im not saying treat people badly, but this "need" to equalise everyone is just going to cause more problems in your life than less.

So, how many generations need to pass before it will become socially acceptable for me to insult you?

Serious question.

[StreetCowboy]

All I can assume is that a lot of posters have lived in a socialist utopia or the US most of their lives, and don't understand the human world.

There is a hierarchy, and we live within it. If we treat others appropriately, and with respect, everything works fine. We ask our bosses to do things, with a "Please", and we tell our staff, with a "please". OUr bosses explain why they did not, and our staff explain why they could not. But in every case, politeness, tolerance and care for personal dignity will distinguish staff from human resources....

SC

[bina]

All I can assume is that a lot of posters have lived in a socialist utopia or the US most of their lives, and don't understand the human world.

There is a hierarchy, and we live within it. If we treat others appropriately, and with respect, everything works fine. We ask our bosses to do things, with a "Please", and we tell our staff, with a "please". OUr bosses explain why they did not, and our staff explain why they could not. But in every case, politeness, tolerance and care for personal dignity will distinguish staff from human resources....

SC

actually, i do live in a soicalist society albeit going strongly capitalist at the moment, as i live and work on kibbutz. utopia it is not. and trust me, easier to work with hired folks and say please and thank u then to work with someone whom last year i was his boss, and this year he is my boss and neither of us gets monetary benefits from the work. here we are all equal, but even here, some are mor equal then others. the factory manager of our international factory gets the same 'wage' as me but has more responsibiites and headaches, and he also has a car parked by his house (we dont own cars) since in his job he needs a car 24/7 which is like perk... i have to sign up for a car two days in advance....

one of the funnier and more difficult things i've had to do was serve a huge meal (when i was kitchen worker in the hotel) to several of our high level factory managers and their international guests. it was easier to serve the guests, as they just said please and thank you. the factory managers got all confused and got up to help us (two of us are ex factory manager staff), we put them back down at the table, then served and they were squrming in their chairs. i had to be very 'impersonal and professional' witht hem to relieve their embarrassment. i had to play the role of 'subservient' server.

of course, afterwards, i dont get a tip since i am a kibbut member, just the hired workers get the tip... and that always makes them feel uncomfortable until i explain that i am, actually, a 'boss'(owner)....

but these lines u posted above are a good summary-- key words: respect and appropriately.

[IanForbes]

I think that the Chunky1 maybe more correct than incorrect with assertions.

I read it as we (non-Thais) should keep them (poorer Thais) at an arms length as they cannot understand why we would be nice to them. I mean, live a life where society says that you are to bow and grovel and then someone does something nice, what are you going to think? You would be totally confused and not know how to react. I think that is what he was saying.

Think about all the guys with girls complaining about how the girl never says please, thank-you or any other niceties that most of us are accustomed. Maybe in her level of society no one says please or gives thanks for things so they cannot grasp the concept of why it is done.

Think about the times you have heard about service staff, in some venues, grumbling about someone leaving a small tip. Maybe someone tipped them more before and now they expect a certain amount regardless of the level of service.

My example of this is that once, while in a good mood, I bought one of the hawkers on Walking Street a 2 or 3 sticks of chicken. No big deal really, I was just in the mood. For the next 3 years, every time I saw that hawker, she asked me for some chicken. <deleted>? Did the purchase I made sign me up to the, "I will buy you chicken every time I see you club?"

Did the hawker become confused by my gesture of kindness? Right or wrong, it gave me the impression that you really cannot be too nice as people will look at it as a freebie and expect it whenever they see you.

TheWalkingMan

Good post. I think you, Richard Smith and Loz said roughly the same thing, but just said it better than the OP.

But, it won't change how I deal with people anywhere, except I seldom give anything to beggers any more. Whenever I've given to beggers in the past they come at me like starving animals whenever I return. Now I just laugh, smile and say "Mai ow krap" , then ignore them.

[Johnniey]

One thing that needs to be mentioned. If a Thai person is intelligent then they won't be poor. This is the easiest place in the world to make money if you are intelligent and speak the local language. The fact that a Thai is poor is tantamount to their overall life outlook. Poverty in Thailand is a choice.

Nonsnse - you'd be as well saying that poverty in Ethiopia is a choice.

I agree with the OP. But the thing is that many of the farang where I live come from the lower classes in their home country - why shouldn't a retired taxi-driver treat a tuk tuk driver like himself?

Edited October 1, 2010 by Johnniey

[Chunky1]

Farangs mistake the Thai social exterior of politeness/smile as being genuine or a reflection of the person's character or potential of character. You always hear farang going on about how friendly Thais are yet if you actually have any real Thai friends (I am not talking about the poor shop girl whom you chat up at her workplace when she can't escape you but think that it is OK because you brought her 25baht worth of food) you will notice that they only trust a very few select number of people. This social exterior is learned behavior among the lower classes and should be completely disregarded. When you stroll through Paragon you don't see the same country bumpkin grinning from ear to ear do you? You don't get offered part of their meal if you sit next to them, do you? Poor Thais imho have very high stress levels and most are ready to snap at a moments notice, like a rottweiler wagging his tail and licking your face. It's time to get beyond your prejudices against educated Thais and realize that there is a reason for what you observe as elitism or coldness.

[Luang]

i will quote my poor intelligent thai husband... he says: nothing is free except with pi/nong... so although we treat everyone with courtesy, freebies are not to be given. in other words: just to buy someone something does make u a 'long term sucker' where u were just feeling nice . however, to buy someone something in return for something, that is courtesy. on kibbutz everyone including my boss at work makes the same money gets the same benefits etc. ; something that thai husband still has hard time to grasp. ive been a kitchen cook, a manager, a toilet cleaner, and a shift boss... and at various times was either boss or bossed by the same people. i treat them the same. he treats all his bosses as 'above him' and therefore must take care of him (like in the old thai hiearchy of jao (lord) and peasant slaves. ive learned to be gracious when given the 'grovel' treatment, rather then fight it, and rather then ignore it. incidently, i have a girlfriend here who was originally from an old maryland southern estate family, and she is very good being gracious, pleasant, but not too familiar with anyone working under her. she is neither embarrassed nor uncomfortable with it, but smiles, nods, says thank very much for the ..., and if its someone she knows a bit longer, will inquire after family or health. thai society reminds me sometimes of the old gentlemen south. not all southern families abused those that were slaves, nor later when they still had servants.

an example is when i go to the thai workers quarters here or anywhere in my country, i am 'THE BOSS" (translating from hebrew, 'owner of the house') and i get treated slightly differently. and i am expected to act slightly differently. i am expected to buy the occasional whiskey for an occasion, i am expected to give more money at the string tieing events, (even though they are richer then me money wise btw)and i am expected to expect them to do things for me that 'fit my station'. i cant stand and wash dishes in their kitchen after a party meal. they dont allow me to do so. but i can say thank you to all the guys that did the cooking, organizing etc. although here in my country it is expected that any woman (yes we are chauvinistic here) even if she is your boss, might get up to help with the dishes.

the saying: treat poor thais like children- smacks of patriarchical colonialism..'keep the natives happy with food, alcohol, they are children and need guidelines: a firm hand (like a horse?) etc etc... -- really.

poverty is a choice?!! i dont think my issan husband would agree. bad education or no education (had to work in the fields) , no capital, an agrarian society where money is tied in to land and crops, and a society that doesnt provide oppurtunities for someone like him to gain a foothold, those are the things that keep him in poverty there, (and being married to a poor but intelligent kibbutznik here )

u can treat poeple from 'all stations of life' with courtesy and respect that doesnt mean that u have to be nice, overly nice or want to please them. it does mean that u dont abuse your status - if someone asks for sick leave, u can consider it and then give it, u dont have to be a maniac and refuse just to pull rank; u also dont have to have employees disappear every five minutes for breaks. it has nothing to do with being nice. just courtesy and respect.

yes, giving unexpected presents is seen as 'freebies and therefore should be taken advantage of . why not? someone who wants to give something away must have lots more and can afford it, so why shouldnt he/she give away more?...

as some say: graciousness and courtesy towards others shows real breeding regardless of monetary station.

this thread can stay if it stays on the lines of society and treatment of different classes in thailand. if there is any thai bashing/slurs/racist marks beyond what has been said which borders on the verge, then warnings etc will start....

bina

israel

Oh the irony!

[roamer]

Chunky, go back on the medication.

[bifftastic]

Surely if you start handing out presents to everyone then you're still playing the 'class' game? Look how rich (and stupid) I am, I can give you fruit! Well, gawd bless yer eyes milord, 'cos the likes o' me can't get me 'ands on a watermelon!

I believe that people are equal, it's just that hi society folks tend not to realise it and can feel threatened by familiarity with people who have to work for a living.

Generally speaking, most middle class people understand the value and contribution that the less well off members of society make. After all, if they didn't have to work for 200 baht a day, those self-same middle class folk wouldn't have a labour force. Also, middle class people often work extremely hard themselves and the more enlightened among them understand that if their life circumstances were different, they would be working just as hard but for a lot less money.

If you want to perpetuate the worst aspects of a class-divided society then you are, in my opinion, making it worse.

If you want to maintain a healthy relationship with those around you then, again in my opinion, you can do so without being taken for some kind of idiot who gives things away for nothing, whilst at the same time, not acting like some colonial-type snob who wafts through the 'lower classes' with a haughty expression and your nose in the air.

Everyone, at some point, will find themselves having their last thought in this life. I hope it will be a happy one. We have, if we're lucky, time to reflect on our lives and ponder if it was well spent.

Up to you how you want to remember your life and be remembered by others.

Biff

[Tokay]

[wintermute]

Farangs mistake the Thai social exterior of politeness/smile as being genuine or a reflection of the person's character or potential of character. You always hear farang going on about how friendly Thais are yet if you actually have any real Thai friends (I am not talking about the poor shop girl whom you chat up at her workplace when she can't escape you but think that it is OK because you brought her 25baht worth of food) you will notice that they only trust a very few select number of people.

Honey on the tongue, ice underneath. That's an old Russian proverb that describes people who are overly polite on the exterior but aren't that way in the inside.

There's a general feeling that western expats have about asians in SE/NE Asia that they are super polite, accepting, and easy to take advantage of. People forget that it wasn't all that long ago that the "super polite" Japanese were running their swords through the heads of allied servicemen for sport.

The politeness is a shell to smooth out the daily social interaction in these societies.

Edited October 2, 2010 by wintermute

[Thakkar]

One is either a gentleman, or one is not.

Turning it on or off, like a software feature, depending on who one's dealing with means that one is really just playing at being a gentleman.

How to behave? Ralph Waldo Emerson (I think) had it right: Imagine yourself in the other person's shoes, and treat them accordingly. Or something like that.

[bonobo]

Farangs mistake the Thai social exterior of politeness/smile as being genuine or a reflection of the person's character or potential of character. You always hear farang going on about how friendly Thais are yet if you actually have any real Thai friends (I am not talking about the poor shop girl whom you chat up at her workplace when she can't escape you but think that it is OK because you brought her 25baht worth of food) you will notice that they only trust a very few select number of people. 

I have many acquaintances in Thailand, many causal friends, and three very close friends.  That may not sound like much, but then again, I have only one other close friend in the world.

Frankly, I see no difference in Thais and anyone else with regards to friendship.

[elcondor]

Dear lord... the carebears are out in force. OK Thais have a LIFETIME of socialisation that your eager need to treat them like equals will not change. So while you are busy acting overly equal and nice you are just confusing them and opening the door for them to take advantage of you. If you don't know this I highly doubt you even live in this country! Im not saying treat people badly, but this "need" to equalise everyone is just going to cause more problems in your life than less.

right, agree 100%

[mca]

self deleted off topic

Edited October 2, 2010 by mca

[ilyelol]

i treat everyone as if they were my dogs.. saves me the trouble to discriminate :jap:

Edited October 2, 2010 by ilyelol

[TAWP]

i treat everyone as if they were my dogs.. saves me the trouble to discriminate :jap:

I don't. I don't despise my dogs.

[Xircal]

It's an interesting topic and there are certainly some elements in Chunky's post I agree with. The smile/politeness is as Chunky describes, merely the mask which is portrayed to world to avoid confrontations. They are not necessarily happy inside.

I also agree with his supposition that there is a definite hierarchy among Thais which even extends into the lower ranks of society. I've noticed many times when I've gone to a restaurant with my girlfriend who herself comes from a poor region of Thailand that she never smiles when ordering food. And her choice of dish is always preceded by "Aow" which means "I want" rather "Kor" meaning "I would like". I get the distinct impression every time this happens that she considers a waitress to belong to a class lower than herself.

It's also true that they only trust a few select people in their lives and even if you happen to be her husband of many years, or just a lover, it doesn't automatically mean you'll join that select group.

However, I don't make choices about who I treat as equals. Everyone is my equal until they give me cause to think otherwise.

[WilliamCave]

Chunky, you hit the nail on the head,,I hace built 3 houses in thailand and my wife owned a business there. When i go friendly with the workes they bought them some beer after work and it was the last time i did that, because after that took almost a week, to get something out of them again,

I have seen time and time agin what u are talking about because I live around all thais no westerners and many have maids and i see what u are talking about

If agree or disagree you hit the nail on the head social classes are very big in thailand

[endure]

It's called 'Sakdina'.

[Mossfinn]

People forget that it wasn't all that long ago that the "super polite" Japanese were running their swords through the heads of allied servicemen for sport.

People forget that it wasn't that long ago that the "super civilised" Westerners were dropping atomic bombs and incendiary devices on the heads of civilians to make a point.

Edited October 2, 2010 by Mossfinn

[Tinkelbell]

quoted ......." If agree or disagree you hit the nail on the head social classes are very big in thailand ."

........................................................................................

Agree with above statement along with SOME of the others who side with the OP ( Chunky1).

If you live in Thailand long enough and most of your circle of friends are from ruling class or elite class, you would experience somethings similar with what Chunky or others ( who voiced agree with the OP).

As 'endure calls it " Sakdina" ( Classes).

I still see it's alive and well in Thailand, especially in the old money class. (poo-dee-gouw).

Being born and raised in BKK and educated in a royal patronage, girl-boarding school. It's a norm to see how the elite and lower classes behave toward each other. EVERYONE KNOWS THEIR PLACE.

Recent experience, a few months ago (while I was in Thailand), staying at one of my longtime friend's resort at Pak-Chong, this handy man came to the fix the entertainment machine. While testing the microphone to check if he had done the job right, cos the friend is going to host karaoke and showing a movie that night, he sang ( Poo-cha-na-sip-tit, made famous by Thai crooney 'Charin Nuntanakorn) a few lines. Big mistake, as I gave him compliment, saying......" Khun rong -pror ( you sing beautiful)."

Upon hearing that, the friend ( my childhood friend from the same boarding school) she said with a sterned face to the guy........" She ( means ME) came from America, she doesn't know what she's doing." I was puzzled and a little irritated by her saying,

[Tinkelbell]

quoted ......." If agree or disagree you hit the nail on the head social classes are very big in thailand ."

........................................................................................

Agree with above statement along with SOME of the others who side with the OP ( Chunky1).

If you live in Thailand long enough and most of your circle of friends are from ruling class or elite class, you would experience somethings similar with what Chunky or others ( who voiced agree with the OP).

As 'endure calls it " Sakdina" ( Classes).

I still see it's alive and well in Thailand, especially in the old money class. (poo-dee-gouw).

Being born and raised in BKK and educated in a royal patronage, girl-boarding school. It's a norm to see how the elite and lower classes behave toward each other. EVERYONE KNOWS THEIR PLACE.

Recent experience, a few months ago (while I was in Thailand), staying at one of my longtime friend's resort at Pak-Chong, this handy man came to the fix the entertainment machine. While testing the microphone to check if he had done the job right, cos the friend is going to host karaoke and showing a movie that night, he sang ( Poo-cha-na-sip-tit, made famous by Thai crooney 'Charin Nuntanakorn) a few lines. Big mistake, as I gave him compliment, saying......" Khun rong -pror ( you sing beautiful)."

Upon hearing that, the friend ( my childhood friend from the same boarding school) she said with a sterned face to the guy........" She ( means ME) came from America, she doesn't know what she's doing." I was puzzled and a little irritated by her saying,

MODS, What happens to my last long paragraphs ?

[Berkshire]

The fact that a Thai is poor is tantamount to their overall life outlook. Poverty in Thailand is a choice.

While I completely disagree with the above statement, I have to concede that there is some truth to what the chunks is saying in the OP. There's actually been studies done which confirms social behavior related to class differences. It's called "Power Distance." High power distance countries (and societies), such as Thailand and Mexico, accept that there are people of higher social standing and treat them accordingly. Doesn't mean they like it, it just means that they accept it. In other words, the people of low social standing accept their lot in life, and they accept that those of higher social standing deserve to be where they are. Convesely, those of higher social standing believe the same, that they are deserving of their lot in life and expect that those below them will treat them accordingly. While some of you may find this distasteful, understand that this is not a Thailand-unique phenomenon. It's a social pecking order, if you will, and maintains order...sort of in an unwritten type of way. Do you think this is completely foreign in the west? Try the US military. A junior enlisted guy would never think of calling a General by his first name, even out of uniform. Western society as a whole certainly isn't like this, but certain institutions are.

As a westerner, I'd certainly treat the parking lot security guard with the same respect that I treat the provincial governor (well, not exactly but close). But I concede that I would have to adjust my behavior if said security guard was under my direct employ.

[Berkshire]

And another thing, for those of you so quick to criticize the Thai-way of doing things. One of the things that I admire about Thailand is how they treat the elderly. Older people are treated with much more respect in Thailand than in the west. It relates to the social pecking order I mentioned before. Whether deservedly or not, older people are considered wiser and knowledgeable and their opinions matter. Compare that to the west, where old age is almost like a disease. Where youth is celebrated and seniors are discarded. Where the belief is that old people should just quietly go off to some retirement home and let the young folks take over and run things. God forbid these old folks might still actually be interested in youthful activities such as sex...and with younger women no less! So consider this aspect of Thai society you old geezers. It ain't that bad here.