Foreigners Can Make A Difference

[Just1Voice]

Recently there was an article in regards to making English the “second language” in Thai schools, and what would have to be done in order to accomplish that. While I commend the idea, and give it total support, there is also something that we “falang” can also do.

In the discussions on this subject in the TV forum I spoke of what I use as a tool for teaching, and have had a number of people send me PM’s to ask for a copy so they can see it for themselves. So far I have had only positive feed back from it. But this isn’t to “pat myself on the back”, but to point out that we CAN make a difference.

We all know the Education System in Thailand is a joke, and we all denigrate it, as I have done myself on more than one occasion. But what if there were more people such as myself, and those who have contacted me, who take a couple of hours each day to teach English to those who truly want to learn? There are thousands of us living here in this country because we love it, and while there are many restrictions on us, they are not so “unbearable” that they make us want to leave. So we deal with them and go on about our lives. But maybe, just maybe, it’s time we give something back in a positive manner.

You don’t have to have an MBA in English or Education to do what I do. You simply have to have the desire to truly help those around you. If you have the proper tools, which are actually very easy to obtain, or even create yourself such as I did, and the proper attitude, then you can do it.

There are hundreds of thousands of us living here, and while not every one of us is capable of teaching, I would venture that the majority of us are, albeit on a simple, communicative level, teaching basic English communication to people who want to learn. If 100,000 of us just worked with 5 Thai a week to help them learn, that’s 500,000 Thai that would be learning basic English communication skills.

The people I work with range in age from 9 to 40, and they are LEARNING. Here’s a good example. Yesterday, after only two weeks of studying with me, I gave a 6 page test to two of my students, a 28 year old woman who is a lawyer, and her 13 yr old niece. Each page had 16 phrases or sentences written in both scripted and phonetic Thai, and they had to write them in English. With the exception of a couple of misspelled words, both of them were 100% correct in their translations. I dare you to show me ANY school in Thailand that can match that.

I would love to see the Ministry of Education follow through on what they have stated they want to do, and hope they are able to do so successfully. But let’s not leave it entirely up to them. For those who say there’s nothing “we” can do to make a change in Thailand, I say: “You’re wrong!” All it takes is a little desire, patience, and a sense of humor, and the right tools, and you CAN make a difference. My question to you is: Are you going to just keep complaining about things, or are you going to get off your butt and help make a difference?”

[Ulysses G.]

If foreigners really want to help Thais learn English, they could make a big difference by speaking slowly and clearly in proper English, not talking pidgin English or baby talk.

[mca]

not talking pidgin English or baby talk.

That kills me when they do that. Fathers talking to their kids in pidgin. That's a good way to develop their language skills. I don't think.

Plus it'll be a cold day in hel_l when, if speaking English, I'll refer to anything western as " farang "

[Flatouthruthefog]

I agree with everything you say.

What you are doing is 100% laudable and sounds to be extremely effective.

Very sadly for Thailand, for those talented and hard working students of yours and the future of this self-proclaimed 'hub' of SE Asia, we are not allowed to make a difference. You are actually breaking the law.

As I am sure at least one poster has pointed out before, the Thai definition of work by foreigners here is a catch-all clause. You are expending time and talent on something, even WITH NO recompense in cash or anything else. The law says that you STILL need the appropriate visa and a Work Permit obtained through a Thai company!

Practically speaking, I am sure you could carry on at home (or the homes of students) ad infinitum, but if you upset someone over even the most trivial thing, you would be liable to arrest by the Immigration Police following reports from the Labour office.

I'd humbly suggest that the success of your methods might lead you to talks with an established private school here, leading to a Work Permit and a subsistence wage. But these days you'd probably still need a TEFL or a TESOL.

Sorry to sound cynical, but you seem to have overlooked the fact that Thailand's lousy education is utterly deliberate. The rich and famous know this, which is why they have been sending their kids to study abroad (for REAL degrees!) for generations! The last thing wanted here is an educated public, stirring up the well ordered agenda, striving to better themselves, starting trade unions (oh no!) etc etc. Who would be left to plant and pick the rice?

And the penultimate thing NOT wanted here is foreigner success. Only little Billy Heineke and a VERY few others have ever truly 'made it' here. Hadn't you noticed? Good luck, anyway. Tragically for Thailand, you may need it.

[Just1Voice]

I agree with everything you say.

What you are doing is 100% laudable and sounds to be extremely effective.

Very sadly for Thailand, for those talented and hard working students of yours and the future of this self-proclaimed 'hub' of SE Asia, we are not allowed to make a difference. You are actually breaking the law.

As I am sure at least one poster has pointed out before, the Thai definition of work by foreigners here is a catch-all clause. You are expending time and talent on something, even WITH NO recompense in cash or anything else. The law says that you STILL need the appropriate visa and a Work Permit obtained through a Thai company!

Practically speaking, I am sure you could carry on at home (or the homes of students) ad infinitum, but if you upset someone over even the most trivial thing, you would be liable to arrest by the Immigration Police following reports from the Labour office.

I'd humbly suggest that the success of your methods might lead you to talks with an established private school here, leading to a Work Permit and a subsistence wage. But these days you'd probably still need a TEFL or a TESOL.

Sorry to sound cynical, but you seem to have overlooked the fact that Thailand's lousy education is utterly deliberate. The rich and famous know this, which is why they have been sending their kids to study abroad (for REAL degrees!) for generations! The last thing wanted here is an educated public, stirring up the well ordered agenda, striving to better themselves, starting trade unions (oh no!) etc etc. Who would be left to plant and pick the rice?

And the penultimate thing NOT wanted here is foreigner success. Only little Billy Heineke and a VERY few others have ever truly 'made it' here. Hadn't you noticed? Good luck, anyway. Tragically for Thailand, you may need it.

Without getting into particulars, I have something of an "advantage" over most in what I can "get by with" due to personal and family connections that have people in the "right places" to counter act, or prevent, problems such as you spoke of.

[thunder30101]

Oh yes its official now, we are going to teach everyone english with the help of the falang lol too funny. What the poster said above is on the money. The corruption in the education system is too deep just like every other institution in this country for any change to be made. Just1voice do you think you are the only falang ever to teach here ???Do you think no one else has ever thought like you ??? Many hundreds, even thousands of well-intentioned people including myself have come before you and left disgusted and burnt out.dealing with a system of corrupt, selfish, lazy, illiterate and xenophobic admin, teachers and parents. Thailand as a country is dying compared to other se asian countries.

[MrBrad]

If foreigners really want to help Thais learn English, they could make a big difference by speaking slowly and clearly in proper English, not talking pidgin English or baby talk.

This one always mystifies me too. Many things that the Thai do will always have me scratching my head. But when educated and successful foreigners talk with Thai people in Tarzan-talk, I'm totally perplexed. How are our close Thai friends ever going to speak English well, when daily they hear only broken, non-standard English which they must assume is proper English? In addition to hampering those Thai friends, it also has to be an affront to their intelligence.

[Just1Voice]

Oh yes its official now, we are going to teach everyone english with the help of the falang lol too funny. What the poster said above is on the money. The corruption in the education system is too deep just like every other institution in this country for any change to be made. Just1voice do you think you are the only falang ever to teach here ???Do you think no one else has ever thought like you ??? Many hundreds, even thousands of well-intentioned people including myself have come before you and left disgusted and burnt out.dealing with a system of corrupt, selfish, lazy, illiterate and xenophobic admin, teachers and parents. Thailand as a country is dying compared to other se asian countries.

First: No, I don't think I'm the only one to ever teach here, but perhaps the only one to do so in this particular manner, which I know works!

Second: I am well aware of the school system, and the government here and how they operate, which is why I totally avoid and ignore them and only work on what is basically a 1-1 situation.

Third: Just because others have tried, and were unsuccessful, does that mean I should not even make an effort? I'm sure a lot of people told Sir Edmond Hillary the same thing, but that didn't stop him from climbing Mt. Everest.

[thunder30101]

Yes you are going to be so helpful in changing a system when you brag about your corrupt families ties and using them in the same manner as the thais do to destroy their childrens future.

[Just1Voice]

Yes you are going to be so helpful in changing a system when you brag about your corrupt families ties and using them in the same manner as the thais do to destroy their childrens future.

I never said anything about "corrupt" family ties. Only that I have something of a "safeguard" should Thai Immigration get involved, You should learn to refrain from making prejudicial comments about something if you are unaware of the facts.

Have a nice day.

[Just1Voice]

I started this topic in the hopes of getting some positive feedback from other members who feel, as I do, that in some small way we can make a difference. And while "freedom of expression" is not prohibited, and constructive criticism is even welcomed, for those of you who seem to live in the perpetual world of "Pessimism and Complaint", unless your life is so boring that you have nothing better to do, why do you even bother to comment? If you tried, and failed, then at least you tried. To what extent, I don't know, and it doesn't matter to me. But if you tried, and it didn't work out for you, does that mean that your experience will, or should, apply to everyone?

[sillyman99]

Yes you are going to be so helpful in changing a system when you brag about your corrupt families ties and using them in the same manner as the thais do to destroy their childrens future.

I never said anything about "corrupt" family ties. Only that I have something of a "safeguard" should Thai Immigration get involved, You should learn to refrain from making prejudicial comments about something if you are unaware of the facts.

Have a nice day.

No, you're wrong, he's right.

I've heard all this crap about about having connections before from so many Farangs it's old hat, it's 99% bullshit if the <deleted> hits the fan.

You're actually breaking the Law, connections or not, and you're encouraging others to do the same.

You gonna use your connections to help some poor old sod that has been busted by immigration for helping people learn English ?

Edited October 9, 2010 by sillyman99

[thunder30101]

SAFEGUARD = CORRUPTION now that is a creative way to teach english lol You came on here telling everyone else how they are not doing enough to teach english here and how your way is nirvana so you should expect some criticism. And bragging about working without a work permit and how your family can take care of it while others have to follow the rules is CORRUPTION.

[sillyman99]

I started this topic in the hopes of getting some positive feedback from other members who feel, as I do, that in some small way we can make a difference.

Getting busted by Immigration for working without a work permit will certainly make a difference alright.

[Vertigotogo]

Without getting into particulars, I have something of an "advantage" over most in what I can "get by with" due to personal and family connections that have people in the "right places" to counter act, or prevent, problems such as you spoke of.

I genuinely (I mean without sarcasm) applaud your ideal and I would be happy to give up some of my time for free. But how will I and the several thousand others that you want to follow your model get by without a work permit and without the 'protection' that you enjoy?

Serious question.

[sillyman99]

Without getting into particulars, I have something of an "advantage" over most in what I can "get by with" due to personal and family connections that have people in the "right places" to counter act, or prevent, problems such as you spoke of.

I genuinely (I mean without sarcasm) applaud your ideal and I would be happy to give up some of my time for free. But how will I and the several thousand others that you want to follow your model get by without a work permit and without the 'protection' that you enjoy?

Serious question.

Perhaps Just1Voice is in cahoots with The Immigration Police and its a giant sting operation.

[geriatrickid]

It's unfortunate that someone trying to make a positive difference is getting waylaid like this. Sure, I can think of a few reasons why he's wrong, but so what? The difference his that he is trying to do something good. Heck of a lot better than the pervs that seek out the barely legal waifs and say that if it wasn't for their "kindness" to pay for a hardluck case to engage in acts of depravity, the person would starve, blah blah blah. Let the OP do his thing. He's not hurting anyone and just might be helping someone live a better life.

[whybother]

I started this topic in the hopes of getting some positive feedback from other members who feel, as I do, that in some small way we can make a difference. And while "freedom of expression" is not prohibited, and constructive criticism is even welcomed, for those of you who seem to live in the perpetual world of "Pessimism and Complaint", unless your life is so boring that you have nothing better to do, why do you even bother to comment? If you tried, and failed, then at least you tried. To what extent, I don't know, and it doesn't matter to me. But if you tried, and it didn't work out for you, does that mean that your experience will, or should, apply to everyone?

You are getting constructive feedback.

What you are doing is illegal despite your "safeguards". And given that others don't have these "safeguards", you are encouraging people to do something that might get them kicked out of the country.

It's stupid that people can't volunteer their time, but that's the way it is.

[likewise]

I started this topic in the hopes of getting some positive feedback from other members who feel, as I do, that in some small way we can make a difference.

Getting busted by Immigration for working without a work permit will certainly make a difference alright.

My idea exactly, their silly laws make it impossible to help them out with their English even for free.

Let them sort it out themselves since they know it all best and hire some real teachers that get a real salary.......

[Just1Voice]

It's unfortunate that someone trying to make a positive difference is getting waylaid like this. Sure, I can think of a few reasons why he's wrong, but so what? The difference his that he is trying to do something good. Heck of a lot better than the pervs that seek out the barely legal waifs and say that if it wasn't for their "kindness" to pay for a hardluck case to engage in acts of depravity, the person would starve, blah blah blah. Let the OP do his thing. He's not hurting anyone and just might be helping someone live a better life.

Thanks.

As for everyone else, I'm not saying that everyone SHOULD do this, but merely stated what I am doing, and what others might also be able and willing to do. If you don't want to try and make a difference, even on a small scale, that's your choice. As for me, until I'm forced to stop, I'm going to keep doing what I'm doing.

Besides, I'm a retired Force Recon Marine. Quitting, or giving up, unless totally compelled to do so, is not an option.

[sillyman99]

It's unfortunate that someone trying to make a positive difference is getting waylaid like this.

GK,

The laws of Thailand make it illegal, and to encourage people ( who may not know any better ) to put themselves at risk is irresponsible.

Yes its crazy that people can't teach without a work permit for free, but it's the way it is here, no amount of sympathy will change the fact that it's deemed illegal by the people who really count, The Immigration Police.

[geriatrickid]

It's unfortunate that someone trying to make a positive difference is getting waylaid like this.

GK,

The laws of Thailand make it illegal, and to encourage people ( who may not know any better ) to put themselves at risk is irresponsible.

Yes its crazy that people can't teach without a work permit for free, but it's the way it is here, no amount of sympathy will change the fact that it's deemed illegal by the people who really count, The Immigration Police.

Ok, You and others raise a valid point. You are right about the visas. So it's really simple. One goes and asks for the appropriate visa. I am not aware of the immigration department denying permission for foreign residents to help the local community. It's all in how one explains what one is doing. Are you telling me that the local ladies on Phuket that volunteer at soi dog don't have proper visas, considering it's done adjacent to government offices? I have never met anyone that couldn't get a work permit for volunteer work. The work visa requirement for charity work is intended to control the abuse of the visa system. Maybe this ought to be moved to the visa section. Now if the grand poobah of visas like Mario or Tywais shows up and says otherwise, then, I am ignorant of the reality. Besides if one goes by the threads with how wealthy and well connected everyone is, there should not be an issue with the visas, right?

[sillyman99]

Besides if one goes by the threads with how wealthy and well connected everyone is, there should not be an issue with the visas, right?

I'm sure there are enough of them willing to devote their lives to Teaching for free.

Us normal folk will have to abide by the law.

[sarahsbloke]

White man help ignorant native learn proper language.

Dress decent, teach native not show women breasts.

Ah, how I dream of the good old colonial days!

Edited October 9, 2010 by sarahsbloke

[mca]

White man help ignorant native learn proper language.

Dress decent, teach native not show women breasts.

Haven't seen too many Red Indians in Thailand myself.....

[Thakkar]

Perhaps Just1Voice is in cahoots with The Immigration Police and its a giant sting operation.

Paranoid much?

I know you're kidding, but a lot of expats here would be inclined to believe that, even if just a bit. That says a lot more about us than the Thai authorities. However the fact that we are inclined to harbour such paranoia means that the Thai authorities, either by design or inadvertently, have made us all unhealthily jittery. If by design, kudos to them, they've succeeded. If not, they should work on changing our assumptions.

The laws of Thailand make it illegal, and to encourage people ( who may not know any better ) to put themselves at risk is irresponsible.

I agree that it's incumbent on anyone suggesting volunteerism of any kind to remind readers of the legal implications (assuming they know it themselves). People can then make up their own minds as to whether to take that (small?) risk.

Having said that, I think that some people who say things like

It's stupid that people can't volunteer their time, but that's the way it is.

and

their silly laws make it impossible to help them out with their English even for free.

Let them sort it out themselves since they know it all best and hire some real teachers that get a real salary...

while being mostly correct, are also people who would likely not have engaged in any kind of volunteerism anyway. The law is just a handy excuse.

*I've inserted the above two quotes without attribution because my comment is not directed at the posters that made them, but because these are almost the exact lines I've heard from many expats face-to-face, people who, I know, would not have volunteered regardless of the law.

Good luck to the OP in his efforts to make a difference. I urge anyone engaged in volunteerism to keep things on the down and low. The deed itself should be reward enough and there's no need for acknowledgment from either a non-existent god, The Thai Authorities, or a bunch of anonymous forum warriors and self-anointed expert pundits like yours truly.

[IanForbes]

I agree with everything you say.

What you are doing is 100% laudable and sounds to be extremely effective.

Very sadly for Thailand, for those talented and hard working students of yours and the future of this self-proclaimed 'hub' of SE Asia, we are not allowed to make a difference. You are actually breaking the law.

As I am sure at least one poster has pointed out before, the Thai definition of work by foreigners here is a catch-all clause. You are expending time and talent on something, even WITH NO recompense in cash or anything else. The law says that you STILL need the appropriate visa and a Work Permit obtained through a Thai company!

Practically speaking, I am sure you could carry on at home (or the homes of students) ad infinitum, but if you upset someone over even the most trivial thing, you would be liable to arrest by the Immigration Police following reports from the Labour office.

I'd humbly suggest that the success of your methods might lead you to talks with an established private school here, leading to a Work Permit and a subsistence wage. But these days you'd probably still need a TEFL or a TESOL.

Sorry to sound cynical, but you seem to have overlooked the fact that Thailand's lousy education is utterly deliberate. The rich and famous know this, which is why they have been sending their kids to study abroad (for REAL degrees!) for generations! The last thing wanted here is an educated public, stirring up the well ordered agenda, striving to better themselves, starting trade unions (oh no!) etc etc. Who would be left to plant and pick the rice?

And the penultimate thing NOT wanted here is foreigner success. Only little Billy Heineke and a VERY few others have ever truly 'made it' here. Hadn't you noticed? Good luck, anyway. Tragically for Thailand, you may need it.

Good post, flatoutthruthefog. I agree. I just try to help out the children of the Thai family I decided to adopt. Only the little daughter, Fong, (age 11) seems to be making any progress. Her 12 year old brother, not so much. And, the oldest daughter is totally lost. She got pregant at age 14 to a Thai boy only a year or two older, and the young girl is now the mother of a little baby girl who will probably repeat the cycle. I just hope I can save the youngest one of a similar fate.

It really is a tragedy that Thailand's policies are so warped. I've heard similar sad stories from a few legitimate teachers who are not allowed to help... even for free.

[ukrules]

If foreigners really want to help Thais learn English, they could make a big difference by speaking slowly and clearly in proper English, not talking pidgin English or baby talk.

I always do this, I only simplify what I'm saying if they're having problems understanding me.

[jazzbo]

Just a quick note: When it becomes in THEIR better interests, all those connections in the 'right places' can turn on you on a dime.

[evanson]

It's unfortunate that someone trying to make a positive difference is getting waylaid like this. Sure, I can think of a few reasons why he's wrong, but so what? The difference his that he is trying to do something good. Heck of a lot better than the pervs that seek out the barely legal waifs and say that if it wasn't for their "kindness" to pay for a hardluck case to engage in acts of depravity, the person would starve, blah blah blah. Let the OP do his thing. He's not hurting anyone and just might be helping someone live a better life.

Thanks.

As for everyone else, I'm not saying that everyone SHOULD do this, but merely stated what I am doing, and what others might also be able and willing to do. If you don't want to try and make a difference, even on a small scale, that's your choice. As for me, until I'm forced to stop, I'm going to keep doing what I'm doing.

Besides, I'm a retired Force Recon Marine. Quitting, or giving up, unless totally compelled to do so, is not an option.

My accountant dealing also with visas told me that imm/police will turn a blind eye to any farang teaching English to Thais whether it be remunerative or not. We farang need not of course be taught anything by Thais:jap:. But that's another thread.

By the way, I applaud what you're doing. Particularly in perhaps the most unappreciative/xenophobic country in the world. I personally couldn't be arsed, preferring to spend what little free time I have on providing the fundamentals of existence to those who are most in need/deserving of it.

Edited October 9, 2010 by evanson