Red Shirts Rally In Bangkok, 6 Months On From Fatal Clash

[hanuman1]

My English is quite adequate, thank you. Your logic is not. The man was a bomb-maker; you stated bomb-making is acceptable in some circumstances and gave an example; hence linkage to that example and the current situation.

if the Reds consider his actions unacceptable, they should state that. If they have no knowledge of him and his actions, they should state that. Flatly denying that he was ever a supporter, when all evidence suggests otherwise is simply stupid - but that is common to the movement.

As I have never asked anybody to kill, or burn down a city, or to begin an underground movement, feel free to kill in my name. I will simply state that I have no knowledge of this person whom I consider to be a mental defective.

Linkage? That's two degrees of separation which can lead to.... oh never mind.

Thank you for your considered opinion. I will now re-evaluate my logic.

[way2muchcoffee]

As a measure taken to further the red cause, the fact that the perpetrator was disowned says all that is required.

Indeed. It says that red leadership are cowards who will disavow the actions of their low-level minions who get caught so as not to be implicated.

What do you expect them to do?

Calling them cowards for not celebrating the bomb attacks is kinda an argument and logic that can only come from some disturbed mind of bomb planter.

Sending out the signal 'you don't belong to us' is the best they can do to prevent some future wannabe "heroes" for the red cause.

Or do you think every red shirt is a terrorist? Paranoia much here in some heads.

What do I expect them to do?

I expect them to emphatically denounce any and all such bombings.

I expect them to publicly apologize for their roles in inciting violence in April and May.

I expect them to take full responsibility for the actions of those they did incite to violence with the extreme rhetoric they inundated their supporters with on the stages.

I expect them to cease any and all financial support for their violent members.

I expect them to stop inciting hatred amongst their supporters.

I expect them to act like grown and dignified men - honestly, ethically, and morally - for the betterment of their country.

Edited October 10, 2010 by way2muchcoffee

[jcbangkok]

It almost always okay to make bombs, kill people and burn down cities ... if you end up on the winning side when all is said and done. And coincidently, the winning side is also the side that somehow turns out to be the right and just side.

[hanuman1]

As a measure taken to further the red cause, the fact that the perpetrator was disowned says all that is required.

Indeed. It says that red leadership are cowards who will disavow the actions of their low-level minions who get caught so as not to be implicated.

What do you expect them to do?

Calling them cowards for not celebrating the bomb attacks is kinda an argument and logic that can only come from some disturbed mind of bomb planter.

Sending out the signal 'you don't belong to us' is the best they can do to prevent some future wannabe "heroes" for the red cause.

Or do you think every red shirt is a terrorist? Paranoia much here in some heads.

I expect them to emphatically denounce any and all such bombings. I expect them to publicly apologize for their roles in inciting violence in April and May. I expect them to take full responsibility for the actions of those they did incite to violence with their rhetoric on the stages. I expect them to cease any and all financial support for their violent members.

As I understand it, those leaders who are considered to have incited violence are all (where possible) under arrest and will be treated according to Thai law. They will pay their debt to society after which - in a broad legal sense - their slates will be wiped clean.

As for the current leaders who are not currently wanted or incarcerated by the authorities, we can extrapolate that they did not in fact break any laws, including one would imagine incitement to violence.

So who exactly are you expecting an apology from? Jatuporn? He is legally neither charged nor guilty of anything at all right now.

If you respect the law enough to cry foul when it is broken by red shirts, then you must also respect it when it gives Jatuporn immunity.

So who else should apologise?

[rubl]

So you were expecting him to say that there isn't a possible reason, ever, in any situation imaginable, which could justify this kind of action? That's ridiculous. There are people living free from tyranny today with the help of home made bombs (e.g. French resistance in WW2 etc).

As a measure taken to further the red cause, the fact that the perpetrator was disowned says all that is required.

Are you seriously comparing the current situation in Thailand to nazi occupied France? That IS ridiculous. That is ludicrous. And you think denial is sufficient, when his wife has given a statement that he is an ardent follower? You havn't been taking your medication, have you?

Is English your second language? If so, I congratulate you on attaining a high level of understanding. However, there are some nuances that still occasionally evade your understanding. Bringing up Nazi occupied France was a way to illustrate that there may in some situations be what reasonable men consider sufficient reason for making home made bombs. It was never offered as a comparison for what's happening here.

I'll put this confusion down to your incomplete understanding of English instead of the lazy, prejudiced and bigoted thinking of those who can't be bothered to ever contemplate they may not know all the facts behind any given situation.

P.S. If I ever really go crazy and declare I am an ardent fan of OzMick and that in his name I am prepared to kill a man, does that make you culpable? It seems you would dam_n yourself in this case.

As a non-native English speaker I seriously dislike negative comments on that. Should be beneath you. You're just lucky that in this part of the world the 'lingua franca' for foreigners to communicate happens to be English.

As for the 'French Resistance' link, do you want to suggest that the Isaan region is fighting an oppressor which conquered them ? I might be wrong, but didn't 'civilisation' trickle down from up there to down here ?

[way2muchcoffee]

Jatuporn has been charged. He has temporary immunity while parliament is in session. Yes. I expect Jatuporn to apologize for his actions.

I also expect Abhisit to apologize for the deaths that occurred under his governance.

Is that so difficult to understand? It is not a matter of legality or charges. It is a matter of maturity and morality.

Edited October 10, 2010 by way2muchcoffee

[whybother]

As I understand it, those leaders who are considered to have incited violence are all (where possible) under arrest and will be treated according to Thai law. They will pay their debt to society after which - in a broad legal sense - their slates will be wiped clean.

As for the current leaders who are not currently wanted or incarcerated by the authorities, we can extrapolate that they did not in fact break any laws, including one would imagine incitement to violence.

So who exactly are you expecting an apology from? Jatuporn? He is legally neither charged nor guilty of anything at all right now.

If you respect the law enough to cry foul when it is broken by red shirts, then you must also respect it when it gives Jatuporn immunity.

So who else should apologise?

Just because Jatuporn isn't in jail at the moment, doesn't mean that he didn't incite or doesn't continue to incite violence.

Edited October 10, 2010 by whybother

[rubl]

As I understand it, those leaders who are considered to have incited violence are all (where possible) under arrest and will be treated according to Thai law. They will pay their debt to society after which - in a broad legal sense - their slates will be wiped clean.

As for the current leaders who are not currently wanted or incarcerated by the authorities, we can extrapolate that they did not in fact break any laws, including one would imagine incitement to violence.

So who exactly are you expecting an apology from? Jatuporn? He is legally neither charged nor guilty of anything at all right now.

If you respect the law enough to cry foul when it is broken by red shirts, then you must also respect it when it gives Jatuporn immunity.

So who else should apologise?

Jatuporn not guilty, correct until proven in court of law. As for 'not charged' see

[hanuman1]

As I understand it, those leaders who are considered to have incited violence are all (where possible) under arrest and will be treated according to Thai law. They will pay their debt to society after which - in a broad legal sense - their slates will be wiped clean.

As for the current leaders who are not currently wanted or incarcerated by the authorities, we can extrapolate that they did not in fact break any laws, including one would imagine incitement to violence.

So who exactly are you expecting an apology from? Jatuporn? He is legally neither charged nor guilty of anything at all right now.

If you respect the law enough to cry foul when it is broken by red shirts, then you must also respect it when it gives Jatuporn immunity.

So who else should apologise?

Jatuporn not guilty, correct until proven in court of law. As for 'not charged' see

Sorry, you're quite right. My mistake.

[hanuman1]

So you were expecting him to say that there isn't a possible reason, ever, in any situation imaginable, which could justify this kind of action? That's ridiculous. There are people living free from tyranny today with the help of home made bombs (e.g. French resistance in WW2 etc).

As a measure taken to further the red cause, the fact that the perpetrator was disowned says all that is required.

Are you seriously comparing the current situation in Thailand to nazi occupied France? That IS ridiculous. That is ludicrous. And you think denial is sufficient, when his wife has given a statement that he is an ardent follower? You havn't been taking your medication, have you?

Is English your second language? If so, I congratulate you on attaining a high level of understanding. However, there are some nuances that still occasionally evade your understanding. Bringing up Nazi occupied France was a way to illustrate that there may in some situations be what reasonable men consider sufficient reason for making home made bombs. It was never offered as a comparison for what's happening here.

I'll put this confusion down to your incomplete understanding of English instead of the lazy, prejudiced and bigoted thinking of those who can't be bothered to ever contemplate they may not know all the facts behind any given situation.

P.S. If I ever really go crazy and declare I am an ardent fan of OzMick and that in his name I am prepared to kill a man, does that make you culpable? It seems you would dam_n yourself in this case.

As a non-native English speaker I seriously dislike negative comments on that. Should be beneath you. You're just lucky that in this part of the world the 'lingua franca' for foreigners to communicate happens to be English.

As for the 'French Resistance' link, do you want to suggest that the Isaan region is fighting an oppressor which conquered them ? I might be wrong, but didn't 'civilisation' trickle down from up there to down here ?

I apologise if I offended you. I was being facetious in the face of certain accusations. As for the French resistance thing, I repeat again that I wasn't trying to compare that situation with this. Consider this question:

Is it ever possible that making home made bombs is acceptable to reasonable people?

I suggested the French resistance thing as an example where it was. We can argue that point if you like.

That it wasn't directly linked to someone said to be a fan of red shirts creating home made bombs may be construed as being off-topic, for which I again apologize, but when demanding that 'red shirt leaders apologize' for it, I was wondering why they should, having already said it was not done in their name.

[whybother]

<snip>

but when demanding that 'red shirt leaders apologize' for it, I was wondering why they should, having already said it was not done in their name.

The bomb maker was a hard core red shirt supporter. If it wasn't done in the name of the red shirts, who was it done for?

The leaders saying it wasn't done in the red shirts name doesn't stop it from actually being done in the red shirts name.

The red shirt leaders have continuously incited violence, but not once have they apologised for anything that they have told their supporters to do. They haven't told their supporters to be peaceful, to not throw grenades, to not make bombs.

In this case, all they have done is disown him. Why? Because he was making bombs, or because he got caught.

[rubl]

<snip>

but when demanding that 'red shirt leaders apologize' for it, I was wondering why they should, having already said it was not done in their name.

The bomb maker was a hard core red shirt supporter. If it wasn't done in the name of the red shirts, who was it done for?

The leaders saying it wasn't done in the red shirts name doesn't stop it from actually being done in the red shirts name.

The red shirt leaders have continuously incited violence, but not once have they apologised for anything that they have told their supporters to do. They haven't told their supporters to be peaceful, to not throw grenades, to not make bombs.

In this case, all they have done is disown him. Why? Because he was making bombs, or because he got caught.

Replying to both of you guys here (a written discussion with three is difficult):

With the exception of the two 'red' MP's all of the (original?) UDD leaders seem to be incarcerated or abroad. Those for sure never seem to acknowledge any wrongdoing. That leaves us with the next level assuming there is a clear next level. I know nothing about them, not even if they have expressed a need for path of force to reach their goal. I'm not even sure if item 1 on their agenda is 'get k. Thaksin back'. As such I can't even comment on their need to apologise. For me a severe case of 'insufficient data'

[hanuman1]

<snip>

but when demanding that 'red shirt leaders apologize' for it, I was wondering why they should, having already said it was not done in their name.

The bomb maker was a hard core red shirt supporter. If it wasn't done in the name of the red shirts, who was it done for?

The leaders saying it wasn't done in the red shirts name doesn't stop it from actually being done in the red shirts name.

The red shirt leaders have continuously incited violence, but not once have they apologised for anything that they have told their supporters to do. They haven't told their supporters to be peaceful, to not throw grenades, to not make bombs.

In this case, all they have done is disown him. Why? Because he was making bombs, or because he got caught.

Replying to both of you guys here (a written discussion with three is difficult):

With the exception of the two 'red' MP's all of the (original?) UDD leaders seem to be incarcerated or abroad. Those for sure never seem to acknowledge any wrongdoing. That leaves us with the next level assuming there is a clear next level. I know nothing about them, not even if they have expressed a need for path of force to reach their goal. I'm not even sure if item 1 on their agenda is 'get k. Thaksin back'. As such I can't even comment on their need to apologise. For me a severe case of 'insufficient data'

Assuming that the incarcerated leaders have been rendered 'ex-leaders' since their ability to function as leaders must obviously have been curtailed to a sufficient degree, I would also like to know who people are talking about these days when they refer to 'red shirt leaders'.

And if those people in jail are not 'out of the game', then why not? Presumably they can't make announcements and they certainly can't attend rallies, so who are the new 'leaders'?

[SergeiY]

Too bad there isn't some kind of silver lining to the Red lunacy ... like weakening of the baht.

A " silver lining" for the American tourists? Kinda a very selfish and ignorant wish. Thailand facing a couple of other problems than your dollar exchange rate. Maybe it is time to go home.

[Jingthing]

Too bad there isn't some kind of silver lining to the Red lunacy ... like weakening of the baht.

A " silver lining" for the American tourists? Kinda a very selfish and ignorant wish. Thailand facing a couple of other problems than your dollar exchange rate. Maybe it is time to go home.

It's NEVER time for strangers to suggest strangers change their geographical location.

[SergeiY]

Too bad there isn't some kind of silver lining to the Red lunacy ... like weakening of the baht.

A " silver lining" for the American tourists? Kinda a very selfish and ignorant wish. Thailand facing a couple of other problems than your dollar exchange rate. Maybe it is time to go home.

It's NEVER time for strangers to suggest strangers change their geographical location.

Like the wish to send Viktor Bout to the USA, that is not even his home.

But honestly when you suffer from the exchange rate and hope for a weaker Baht, back home could be the safer and better place for you.

I am perfectly fine with a weak dollar, could get even lower for me. But that has nothing to do with the topic and i don't have a wish for more violence with the hope that the Baht goes maybe down from it. That is kinda sick. And if you are sick, back home is the best place to go.

[Skywalker69]

Thought this was quite poignant given recent events:

RT @tulsathit: Only ab 10 ppl attended bomb's "victim" Samai Wongsuwan's funeral in Suphanburi - Thairath photo http://yfrog.com/9gqq5jj

That's weird. What with all those red-shirt-wearing terrorist supporters you'd have thought more than 10 would show up.

Or could it possibly be that not just most, but nearly all red shirt wearing demonstrators would also find fault with that man's actions just like any other normal human being would?

Over to you, red-shirt haters.

It's interesting that the red leaders just disowned him, denying he was a red shirt supporter, rather than actually saying that what he did was bad.

Can it be that he is dead and cant´t serve the red purpose anymore.

[moe666]

Too compare the situation in Thailand to the Nazi takes away from what happened from 1939 until 1945. The situation in Thailand isn't even close and no comparison can be made, unless of course you don't know your history and what the nazi did to several million people.

[Buchholz]

As I understand it, those leaders who are considered to have incited violence are all (where possible) under arrest and will be treated according to Thai law. They will pay their debt to society after which - in a broad legal sense - their slates will be wiped clean.

As for the current leaders who are not currently wanted or incarcerated by the authorities, we can extrapolate that they did not in fact break any laws, including one would imagine incitement to violence.

So who exactly are you expecting an apology from? Jatuporn? He is legally neither charged nor guilty of anything at all right now.

If you respect the law enough to cry foul when it is broken by red shirts, then you must also respect it when it gives Jatuporn immunity.

So who else should apologise?

Jatuporn not guilty, correct until proven in court of law. As for 'not charged' see

Sorry, you're quite right. My mistake.

It goes back much further.

Jatuporn, the Gandhi-loving non-violent promoter, has been charged with crimes for the Riots of July 2007, the ASEAN Summit 2009, and for May Mayhem 2010.

He's out on bail from the first one and utilizing parliamentary immunity for the other two.

Edited October 10, 2010 by Buchholz

[mccw]

so you h"hate with a passion" the White skinned folk; sounds more like your the racist! Tarring everyone with the same brush because ubeleive in soap operas ; mental

So I'm hi-so because I abhor this group of wasters? I think not.

Reckon this day was the perfect opportunity to remove 6,000 bad eggs from society... couple RPGs in among them.

The asylum is being over run and the inmates WILL take over one day.You cannot surpress someone for ever,you cannot be racist against your own people for ever.Because the issan folks are dark(work the fields) and have smaller noses in general the hi-so nasty thai women are racist.The soap opera are portrayed as whites,when many are covered in that horrible whitener and have a white background for camera angles.I hate them with a pasion so can you imagine what someone is like when its happened to them all their life,and for generations

These people,right or wrong are ready to explode with rage due to the arrogance of the minority pompous brigade.Be worroed,be very worried

[jcbangkok]

Too bad there isn't some kind of silver lining to the Red lunacy ... like weakening of the baht.

A " silver lining" for the American tourists? Kinda a very selfish and ignorant wish. Thailand facing a couple of other problems than your dollar exchange rate. Maybe it is time to go home.

You may want to check on your ability to comprehend deeper meanings in statements as well as trying to think more positively... just suggestions for a happier life.

1) Some intelligent people might read this post to mean "nothing good can come from the Red's actions" an the comment about the baht being tongue in cheek.

2) Since when is it a bad thing to try to find some kind of good in the bad we have no control over?????

3) Why would the weakening of the baht only benefit American Tourists??????

4 (and most important) ... lighten up and calm down

PS. great link ... Curmudgeon

Edited October 10, 2010 by jcbangkok

[jcbangkok]

Why are they not arrested, political gathering of more than 5 people?

Good question.

My guess would be the same reasons the Reds were able to paralyze much of Bangkok 6-months ago in violations of the laws and when countless lawful orders were given to disperse.

Bottom law is that if laws aren't enforce they become meaningless and weaken the entire country and the governments abilities to govern the nation.

But who knows .. although i doubt it ... maybe they got some kind of permit since it appears this time, their intentions were peaceful and not to provoke violence..

Edited October 10, 2010 by jcbangkok

[Buchholz]

The bomb maker was a hard core red shirt supporter. If it wasn't done in the name of the red shirts, who was it done for?

The leaders saying it wasn't done in the red shirts name doesn't stop it from actually being done in the red shirts name.

The red shirt leaders have continuously incited violence, but not once have they apologised for anything that they have told their supporters to do. They haven't told their supporters to be peaceful, to not throw grenades, to not make bombs.

In this case, all they have done is disown him. Why? Because he was making bombs, or because he got caught.

Replying to both of you guys here (a written discussion with three is difficult):

With the exception of the two 'red' MP's all of the (original?) UDD leaders seem to be incarcerated or abroad. Those for sure never seem to acknowledge any wrongdoing. That leaves us with the next level assuming there is a clear next level. I know nothing about them, not even if they have expressed a need for path of force to reach their goal. I'm not even sure if item 1 on their agenda is 'get k. Thaksin back'. As such I can't even comment on their need to apologise. For me a severe case of 'insufficient data'

Assuming that the incarcerated leaders have been rendered 'ex-leaders' since their ability to function as leaders must obviously have been curtailed to a sufficient degree, I would also like to know who people are talking about these days when they refer to 'red shirt leaders'.

And if those people in jail are not 'out of the game', then why not? Presumably they can't make announcements and they certainly can't attend rallies, so who are the new 'leaders'?

Red Leader Veera is not incarcerated and that doesn't stop him from making the ridiculous proposal of his to free the imprisoned terrorists in order to effect reconciliation:

Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva

rejected a proposal by red-shirt leader Veera Musikapong that all red-shirt leaders be released on bail as the first step towards reconciliation. Such decisions were up to the courts.

from today's "Live" thread:

Edited October 11, 2010 by Buchholz

[rubl]

Red Leader Veera is not incarcerated and that doesn't stop him from making the ridiculous proposal of his to free the imprisoned terrorists in order to effect reconciliation:

Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva

rejected a proposal by red-shirt leader Veera Musikapong that all red-shirt leaders be released on bail as the first step towards reconciliation. Such decisions were up to the courts.

from today's "Live" thread:

I guess the UDD lawyers finally realised that their petitioning for bail was futile. Somehow out of fashion. This is the season of 4-to-5 point reconciliation plans with point one 'grant them bail'. Must be much cheaper as well

[hanuman1]

Red Leader Veera is not incarcerated and that doesn't stop him from making the ridiculous proposal of his to free the imprisoned terrorists in order to effect reconciliation:

Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva

rejected a proposal by red-shirt leader Veera Musikapong that all red-shirt leaders be released on bail as the first step towards reconciliation. Such decisions were up to the courts.

from today's "Live" thread:

I guess the UDD lawyers finally realised that their petitioning for bail was futile. Somehow out of fashion. This is the season of 4-to-5 point reconciliation plans with point one 'grant them bail'. Must be much cheaper as well

The 'grant them bail' gambit is symptomatic of old-school politics throughout South East Asia. There's a long tradition across the region of politicians and army generals guilty of orchestrating all manner of unconstitutional and illegal activities being pardoned/released/rehabilitated as a way to diffuse highly charged situations.

So whilst I welcome the end of this practice in the wider interests of justice being done, I do hope it is a lasting change, applicable to all sides in future conflicts. Although somehow I doubt it.

Although it's easy to pour scorn on the UDD lawyers' petition from a Western point of view, there are plenty of historical precedents which make it more understandable in the eyes of Thai people - particularly old-school politicians - I would suggest.

[chantorn]

Why are they not arrested, political gathering of more than 5 people?

The police don't have a big enough van, Chantorn.

So it is OK to break the law if the mass is big enough?

Just like the shutting down of the airports, because the police don't have a big enough van.

[hanuman1]

Why are they not arrested, political gathering of more than 5 people?

The police don't have a big enough van, Chantorn.

So it is OK to break the law if the mass is big enough?

Just like the shutting down of the airports, because the police don't have a big enough van.

Don't quote me on this but I think there is a plan to purchase 45 new MegaVans from China, where they have been proved to be effective in capturing thousands of people in Tibet and other areas.

The delivery date is set for around April 1st next year, so hopefully these red scum will be dealt with more effectively then.

[Insight]

And would should we expect from the UDD if their "rally" was prohibited?

[rick999]

being "red" is the only way that most of them know of,.. for most of those who wish to voice their grievances, they seriously need to get their lazy bums moving and think of a better method instead of just putting on a red shirt, hopping onto a pick-up and off they go, becomes a weekend family day outing better than sitting ard in own house and eat somtam

[Siripon]

As I understand it, those leaders who are considered to have incited violence are all (where possible) under arrest and will be treated according to Thai law. They will pay their debt to society after which - in a broad legal sense - their slates will be wiped clean.

As for the current leaders who are not currently wanted or incarcerated by the authorities, we can extrapolate that they did not in fact break any laws, including one would imagine incitement to violence.

So who exactly are you expecting an apology from? Jatuporn? He is legally neither charged nor guilty of anything at all right now.

If you respect the law enough to cry foul when it is broken by red shirts, then you must also respect it when it gives Jatuporn immunity.

So who else should apologise?

Jatuporn not guilty, correct until proven in court of law. As for 'not charged' see

Sorry, you're quite right. My mistake.

It goes back much further.

Jatuporn, the Gandhi-loving non-violent promoter, has been charged with crimes for the Riots of July 2007, the ASEAN Summit 2009, and for May Mayhem 2010.

He's out on bail from the first one and utilizing parliamentary immunity for the other two.

The latest fairy story from one of the world's greatest liars is that at the site of the next bombing, a strand of his hair will be found at the scene to frame him for the bombing! The hair has been taken from the floor of his barber's!